Price of pups to turn a profit?

[prairiefirepointers]

I understand that you want to screen out all the hair lips and not sell them a dog. However, its nearly impossible. Some of the biggest PIA are those whom you never expected it from. I have a pretty good radar for people I think. However, on the other hand, the biggest screwin I ever took was when I sold a started dog to a Pastor in Norwich Kansas.

[RoostersMom]

I agree with what you're saying - it can be near impossible to weed out all the whackos. But some people don't even TRY to weed them out. First money, first pick, whatever. They'll just take the money and don't even conceive of saying "no, this pup wouldn't be right for you." My clause when I bought my Vizsla clearly states that if "for any reason" I cannot keep the dog he is to be offered to the breeder for a buy-back. Of course my breeder would let me re-home him to a good home, but she would also want to be involved in that process to insure he's going to a good home. No chance in H.E. double hockeysticks that I'll ever let loose of him - but this is how reputable breeders include that type of thing in a sales contract.

But that, IMO isn't where the rubber meets the road. Rubber and road meet when the breeder interviews the potential home, calls the veterinarian to get a vet reference and generally gets to know the new owner. Also, this ties in another subject that I believe in - that the breeder knows best which pup should go to which home. I once fostered a 3 month old Vizsla for our rescue because the couple bought "the cute one with white on it" from the litter and it was the most hard charging, go getting pup of the litter (I knew the breeder and had seen the litter when they were 6 weeks old). This couple was buying the pup for their apartment lifestyle and had never owned a pointing breed before. This breeder could have had a happy couple if he had insisted they get the most mellow pup in the litter since he was a big couch potato. Oftentimes, the general Joe Q. Public doesn't have the savvy to pick the best dog for his situation and this is where I think the breeder needs to be more adamant about which dogs go to which homes. I don't care if he wanted a black and white - if the liver and white pup is going to be a better "fit" for what he wants the dog to do, then the breeder needs to step in and help make that decision. I know many on here think that the "buyer makes the choice" but you know what... you're the one who is responsible for making a good match - and insuring that pup doesn't end up in rescue or a shelter because it was flat out the wrong pup for that family. You're supposed to be in it for the "love of the dogs" and not to just make a buck off a guy. Steering your buyers to the best pup personality is all a part of making that match better. Off the soapbox now.

[ultracarry]

L

Cajun Casey wrote:
If the person producing pups cannot assure a quality life for the lifetime of every one of those pups, then I have a problem with it. Most of the pointing breeds in rescue come from breeders who are in it to make money.

OK, now please tell me how you do this? A person buys a dog, takes dog home. Your responsibility ends there IMHO.

It would be like chevy making sure you didnt wreck one of their cars.........after you bought it. Have you ever bred a dog or any other animal? and sold their offspring? Do you go home with the animal?

I just dont understand this part. How do you make this happen in the real world?

Read what RoostersMom wrote.

That's the best citation I have ever seen.....lol specially after it followed your post. How does that work?

[markj]

Is your shelter on Facebook?

I am not sure, I dont do facebook.

http://solas.networku.net/

is the web site. They now need fosters for cats. the dogs must have been taken care of. The main guy there, Galen is the cheif for our VFD here in Crescent.

I could be wrong but I believe Cajun was referring to the breeder taking one of their pups back at any point should the owner be unable to handle it or no longer want it.

I also do this, doesnt every breeder? I read it as breeders taking unsold pups and dropping them off so the shelter could deal with them. Maybe I read it wrong?

I also try to weed out folks dont know about the breed etc. But if you spend only 10 or 30 min how can you really tell what will happen?

Sickly I can say you never know. I worked with a guy for 3 years, went huinting etc sold him a shotgun. Well last week he shot his wife dead here in Omaha. I never would have thought he could do such a thing and Iknew him well. So how the heck can you tell what a potential buyer will do?

[markj]

and have Tony's four, a divorce is why they're here

Tony is getting a divorce? Too bad, he has been thru a lot if so. Stay dry

[Sharon]

We have taken back 2 dogs this yr already...And the 2 DC's we have were dogs taken back...My Sam was brought back to the breeder of the litter (that had bred to Fritz) and he brought him here and I bought him...Initially to train and resell. I tell everyone that gets a pup here that if things change and they cannot keep the dog to contact us first...

That's great. Reminded me of our City animal shelter that has a big sign saying "No Returns". :roll:

[kensfishing]

and have Tony's four, a divorce is why they're here

Tony is getting a divorce? Too bad, he has been thru a lot if so. Stay dry

It was final in Dec. He's doing good. Has a girlfriend who lets him do almost what he wants with the dogs or fishing. She's alot better than the other one..

[nikegundog]

Since I used the words puppuy mill a few times I guess I'm considered one of the big guys.I do probably own more dogs (9) then a few of you business experts that don't seem to understand that any successful business takes every deduction possible.

I don't think you understand what people are saying about deductions, know one is against you taking every deduction you can. Just be honest about the profit. Lets say (me) who's been into hunting for the last thirty years gets asked to take someone hunting and they pay me $2000 dollars for a one day hunt. I would probably tell people I made about $1900+ for 1 day of guideing. But since I have about $7000 invested In my hunting equip. I could give the standard answer that I lost my "bleep" as a guide, or theirs no money in it. And if the IRS wanted to know how much I made I would (honestly) tell them I lost $5000.

[volraider]

Have a litter and see if you make money. That's an easy way to find out if you can make money.

Brian

[Ridge-Point]

I really cannot understand why people get so worked up about puppy prices and breeding practices. I've seen puppies sold anywhere from free to $3000, some with top bloodlines some not. As long as they went to good homes then what does it matter?

If you have a quality product then charge as much or as little as your conscience will allow. If you don't like the product or the price then don't buy it.

"Back yard breeders" have no effect on the performance bred gene pool because those dogs never make it into a performance pedigree unless they have proven they belong there.

[birddogger]

My point is with the folks who are doing it as a hobby, want to claim they cant make money on a litter because of all of the expenses. The sire/dam, training, their hourly wage, ect. So if they didnt breed that dog, would they then not train it? Not feed it? Not take it to the vet? Not do tests/trials? Not take it hunting?? If not, then I guess they should deduct every expense ever incurred, and evaluate why they have the dog in the first place. Myself, I hunt, train, and test the dog for fun. IF the dog isnt good enough at it, certainly wouldnt breed it. If the dog is, I would consider it, if it made sense and was a good breeding. However, weather the dog was breedable or not I would still hunt her, train her, feed her, and take her to the vet, so I would not consider all of those expenses "litter related". Most who do it as a hobby, would do the same I think. If someone has more than one litter, after not making any money at it, Id have to ask why they would do that?? They hate money or something?

This was my point exactly in a privious post. I just don't see how people consider training, hunting, trialing/testing etc. to be an expense when having a litter of pups. Is that the only reason you have the sire and dam?

[JKP]

This was my point exactly in a privious post. I just don't see how people consider training, hunting, trialing/testing etc. to be an expense when having a litter of pups. Is that the only reason you have the sire and dam?

You can't look at a business any other way....total income minus total expenses...and that's why you can't make money breeding dogs unless you're a puppy mill.

[baileydog2007]

This was my point exactly in a privious post. I just don't see how people consider training, hunting, trialing/testing etc. to be an expense when having a litter of pups. Is that the only reason you have the sire and dam?

You can't look at a business any other way....total income minus total expenses...and that's why you can't make money breeding dogs unless you're a puppy mill.

But you cant run a business like a hobby. Thats kinda like saying my Chevy truck only gets .25MPG. Cost of gas, insurance, oil changes, and the truck alone was 22,500. Add it all up, my gas mileage is terrible!

[LincolnAlexander]

But you cant run a business like a hobby. Thats kinda like saying my Chevy truck only gets .25MPG. Cost of gas, insurance, oil changes, and the truck alone was 22,500. Add it all up, my gas mileage is terrible!

More like being a roofer and saying 'I already have the supply of shingles purchased 6 months ago, so won't count that vs the cost of the roof' and 'I like roofing anyway so none of my tools that I purchased specifically to do roofing should count either.'
'Guess my profit on this job is only payment less labour, so I made a ton of money!'

Again personally, for myself I wouldn't really see it as a business but when thinking of expenses I wouldn't count items like the cost of the dog, feeding, hunting, etc. however if it specifically relates to breeding (and if I obtained a certain title specifically for that reason, and that required additional training I would count that) it becomes easier to see where you wouldn't make money.

[PkerStr8Tail]

I still think this whole discussion revolves around what is a hobby and what is a business. I am going to use an analogy to make a point.

Mark Cuban is a billionaire. He made his money in various businesses. His passion was to own a professional sports team. (hobby) He bought the Dallas Mavericks NBA team. Mark has enough money from his previous business ventures that if he wanted to he could support the Dallas Mavericks organization with the money he earned from those other income sources. His hobby was to own a sports team so he may not care if the Dallas Mavericks organization makes a profit or not. Although I would suspect a true businessperson like him will still manage any business venture to a profit. Income from the team would be ticket sales, concession stand sales, merchandise, TV rights, etc. The costs would be player salaries, office employee salaries, and transportation for player, lodging for players, etc. So if you ask the question, “Does the Marvericks business make money?” You take total income minus total expenses and then you have profit or loss.

If Mark uses money he earns from other businesses to fund some of the expenses for the owning the Mavericks, he can do that but you can’t them say those expenses paid through other means of income don’t count in the equation of whether the Mavericks business is profitable. That is the argument I am seeing here. People have job, retirement or what every source of income they have to fund their hobby (owning and running dogs, etc.) so therefore you should not use that in the equation of whether the business of producing dogs is profitable. Feeding, vet bills, training, getting titles, etc. are expenses in the business of producing dogs. If you choose to fund those expenses through other sources of income besides puppy sales, you certainly can do that but it doesn’t mean they are not expenses that are being paid. So for many of you, you love the hobby of owning, hunting and competing dogs. You fund all those expenses through other sources of income rather than sale of puppies. That is common. If you have a litter, you can sell the pups and take all of that income as profit because you are already paying all the expenses through other sources of income. However, leaving out any expense you are paying through other sources of income in the evaluation of whether is business of having litters of pups is profitable is not accurate or valid.

[baileydog2007]

But you cant run a business like a hobby. Thats kinda like saying my Chevy truck only gets .25MPG. Cost of gas, insurance, oil changes, and the truck alone was 22,500. Add it all up, my gas mileage is terrible!

More like being a roofer and saying 'I already have the supply of shingles purchased 6 months ago, so won't count that vs the cost of the roof' and 'I like roofing anyway so none of my tools that I purchased specifically to do roofing should count either.'
'Guess my profit on this job is only payment less labour, so I made a ton of money!'

Again personally, for myself I wouldn't really see it as a business but when thinking of expenses I wouldn't count items like the cost of the dog, feeding, hunting, etc. however if it specifically relates to breeding (and if I obtained a certain title specifically for that reason, and that required additional training I would count that) it becomes easier to see where you wouldn't make money.

Its splitting hairs, I know. "Breeders" will always contend "there is no money in it", and I simply dont believe that for one second. Look at Gundogs online, this forum, gunddog breeders, Gundog Cental, ect. Those sites are full of breeders who do it for a living, are they all continuing to do it at a loss?? No way in heck. Those who have a litter from their personal gundog, and want to add every expense ever incurred will obviously never make any money. As I stated, I would still buy my dog, feed it, train it, vet visits, trial/test it, ect, reguardless of breeding the dog. Not all dogs should be bred. So every single one of those expenses would be there, weather I bred the dog or not, so, IMO, they are not related to the cost of the litter. If someone buys a dog, simply to breed it, spends thousands of dollars on it, knowing the plan is to try make money whelping pups, that person needs a business plan.

I worked hard training my dog. Had a ton of fun hunting/testing her. She turned out to be an excellent dog, admittedly Im sure due to the breeding more so than my training. But she was awesome. Now had she not turned out so well, due to my poor training or whatever, she would not have had any pups, yet those expenses would still be there. And Id be happy and OK with that, as I did it cuz I liked it, and it was rewarding. Ive had other pups that it didnt turn out that way. But I never buy a pup for the sole purpose of breeding, those who do, and dont make money at it, have only themselves to blame IMO. Now, some never expect to, for many good reasons, and thats fine. Its the folks who claim there is no money it unless you are a puppy mill that I disagree with. Thats just plain wrong.


BTW, that roofer, who bought too many shingles 6 months ago on a job, probably complained he lost his butt on the job that HE bought too many shingles for Im guessing. Just cant make a living roofing these days!

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Who ever makes money from a hobby?? Nobody cause its a hobby! I spend way more money in dogs and horses than I could ever dream of getting back out of it, because its a hobby!!! Seriously people get a clue....

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

This question is specific to Bailey.Did you claim & pay TAXES on all the money you made??????????? Oh & all those sites you mentioned I doubt seriously there are very many making a LIVING just strictly Breeding & selling pups & dogs!! & the ones that are you can bet your butt they take deductions on all dog related costs.

[Chukar12]

By any reasonable measurement I don't believe a "hobby breeder" can profess to lose money selling pups; owning sporting dogs comes with a cost and selling pups mitigates some of that cost. I just had a litter of only two and I sold one, I am $800 better off than I would have been.

But making a living selling puppies? What is a living? For sake of argument let's call it 50K gross, and let's use my overpriced $800 pup. That is 62.5 pups per year. Let's average 6 pups a litter, that is 10+ litters and probably 10 brood matrons...There just aint a whole lot of folks doing that is there?

Some profit in the literal sense...sure, making a living...I dunno

[nikegundog]

As always, well said.

[LincolnAlexander]

By any reasonable measurement I don't believe a "hobby breeder" can profess to lose money selling pups; owning sporting dogs comes with a cost and selling pups mitigates some of that cost. I just had a litter of only two and I sold one, I am $800 better off than I would have been.

I would see "hobby breeder" and "owning sporting dogs" as two different things. If I own a sporting dog I do pay for the dog, food, normal vet costs, hunting costs, some training costs, etc. If I own a sporting dog, and do not breed I don't pay stud fees, travel to use the stud, health tests, whelping equipment, kennel name registration, litter registration, Vet fees associated with the pups, a website, and (while debated, possibly) training/testing/trialing fees specific to proving a dog to use for breeding.

I see a difference between the two, and depending on circumstances and choices involved a hobby breeder may make a bit of money, may not make money or may lose money. It seems very subjective based on personal opinions on how and what should be included as expenses vs the money you make on the pups, and really how many litters the dam will have. Just my opinion .

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Chukar I agree somewhat any money I take in helps but by no means do I take in more then I put out so there is NO PROFIT.I don't count hunting & my time it's only money I put out taking care of ,housing,equip,on a trainer,those are all deductions a business would & can take so I don't see why it would be any different for anyone else.Like I stated before if you put out more then you take in there is no profit.

People that make a living off dogs deduct their horse trailers,vehicles that pulls them,food,kennel,equip,you name it if it dog related they take it just like any other business.
I was at a trial one of the guys there was selling a used blank gun to a trainer for $50 the trainer got out his check book & the guy says I don't want a check,the trainer says I don't pay by cash I have to have record of it either check or credit card.

I can do simple math when you deduct the cost of everything & it's more then you take in the profit is ZERO.

It seems as though most of you see any money you take in as profit,I don't see it that way so I guess we disagree.
To bad GM & many other BUSINESSES don't see it that way we wouldn't be paying for their BAILOUTS!! :roll:

[markj]

Look at Gundogs online, this forum, gunddog breeders, Gundog Cental, ect. Those sites are full of breeders who do it for a living,

But is that their only means of income? I bet not. And why is it so important how a person makes a living? A car salesman sells cars for profit, do you get upset over this too?

I just dont get the whole thread here. Are you after a free pup? I did give away one last litter to a handicapped gent needed a freind and companion.

I went to college fiorst go round and studied business, gave me an understanding of credit and debit. Dogs are a debit for me, my feed bill for 7 dogs is kinda high. I keep them all cause they are my friends and hunters. I dont see them as money makers. I have a litter maybe once every two years or so. It dont make me any money.

I know a guy name of Art Armbrust, ask him about this subject if you ever see him at a trial, he is very nice and will talk to ya if he has the time and isnt in a brace. He has one of the nicest kennels I ever saw and a beutiful acreage.

Hege-haus kennel was a huge one too, he was weathly and lost money there had the best trainers and such. Why? cause he loved the dogs.

Horse breeders same thing, how do they make any money selling colts? Dad sold one for 24 thousand bucks and still lost money on that one after stud fee and registration, transport to seller etc.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Exactly Markj I never went to college & took business but math I can do.I might not be the smartest man in the world but I'm far from the most STUPID!!
If you say you make money & do good for you but if you really stopped & think I bet you didn't make as much as you thought.
Maybe I should start lookig around & see where the money I made is at,I can tell you it's not in my pocket or the bank.
Hey Pam (wife) where's my money I made off the dogs!! That subject has been more then one argument if I made money everytime I mentioned breeding world war 3 wouldn't start.
But I been married 45 yrs so it blows over!!

[baileydog2007]

Look at Gundogs online, this forum, gunddog breeders, Gundog Cental, ect. Those sites are full of breeders who do it for a living,

But is that their only means of income? I bet not. And why is it so important how a person makes a living? A car salesman sells cars for profit, do you get upset over this too?

I just dont get the whole thread here. Are you after a free pup? I did give away one last litter to a handicapped gent needed a freind and companion.

I went to college fiorst go round and studied business, gave me an understanding of credit and debit. Dogs are a debit for me, my feed bill for 7 dogs is kinda high. I keep them all cause they are my friends and hunters. I dont see them as money makers. I have a litter maybe once every two years or so. It dont make me any money.

I know a guy name of Art Armbrust, ask him about this subject if you ever see him at a trial, he is very nice and will talk to ya if he has the time and isnt in a brace. He has one of the nicest kennels I ever saw and a beutiful acreage.

Hege-haus kennel was a huge one too, he was weathly and lost money there had the best trainers and such. Why? cause he loved the dogs.

Horse breeders same thing, how do they make any money selling colts? Dad sold one for 24 thousand bucks and still lost money on that one after stud fee and registration, transport to seller etc.

Im not upset they make money, at all. They should. My beef is with those who claim money cant be made whelping pups unless you are a "puppy mill" . I wouldnt take a free pup, they are usually free for a resaon, so no, thats certainly not my point, wtf. I dont get your attack on me, and replying completely out of context. My origional reply was only that a person can make money having a litter of pups. Period. Thats it. Those who c say "Try it, add up all of your expenses, it cant be done" are wrong IMO. I did it, and made a few dollars. Could I live on it, no, Im not good enough or educted enough in breeding to do it for a living, but some folks are. I commend those who do it, would hope they make money at it, as its work. Is it their only source of income?? Who knows, I have a full time job and 2 part time jobs, many folks rely on multiple jobs/incomes to live these days.

I can buy a car for 5k and sell it for 2k and lose moey too, that doesnt mean everyone who sells cars loses money. My point is it is like ANY other business. Those who do it well, over time, will make money. Those who do it as a hobby or are not good at it, obviously wont make any money.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Bailey you have never answered my question,did you claim & file Taxes on all the money you made???

Oh & on all those sites you mentioned which ones of the Breeders makes a living strictly from Breeding & selling pups & dogs??

[baileydog2007]

Bailey you have never answered my question,did you claim & file Taxes on all the money you made???

Oh & on all those sites you mentioned which ones of the Breeders makes a living strictly from Breeding & selling pups & dogs??

That matters why, on the taxes? And as far as if that the only source of income, who cares, as Ive said, I cant/dont live off one income, and I know many folks who do other things on the side. Dont have to make a living at it to make some money at it, and if they didnt make money at it, I doubt they'd keep doing it year after year after year...........

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I think that pretty much answers my question,but if you do I think you will find some deductions & realise you did not make so much.
I have sold dogs from some of those sites still didn't make a profit!!
Thank you

[baileydog2007]

I think that pretty much answers my question,but if you do I think you will find some deductions & realise you did not make so much.
Thank you

LOL. Whatever. I know a guy who breeds labs (Has a GSP litter occassionally) and does fine. Is it his only job? No, but he makes money at it, must just be better than most are at it I guess.

So the fact you didnt make a profit at it, makes profitting from it impossible???? I see.

[kensfishing]

Look at Gundogs online, this forum, gunddog breeders, Gundog Cental, ect. Those sites are full of breeders who do it for a living,

But is that their only means of income? I bet not. And why is it so important how a person makes a living? A car salesman sells cars for profit, do you get upset over this too?

I just dont get the whole thread here. Are you after a free pup? I did give away one last litter to a handicapped gent needed a freind and companion.

I went to college fiorst go round and studied business, gave me an understanding of credit and debit. Dogs are a debit for me, my feed bill for 7 dogs is kinda high. I keep them all cause they are my friends and hunters. I dont see them as money makers. I have a litter maybe once every two years or so. It dont make me any money.

I know a guy name of Art Armbrust, ask him about this subject if you ever see him at a trial, he is very nice and will talk to ya if he has the time and isnt in a brace. He has one of the nicest kennels I ever saw and a beutiful acreage.

Hege-haus kennel was a huge one too, he was weathly and lost money there had the best trainers and such. Why? cause he loved the dogs.

Horse breeders same thing, how do they make any money selling colts? Dad sold one for 24 thousand bucks and still lost money on that one after stud fee and registration, transport to seller etc.

Art's wife is the hospital right now. Not doing well. I've known Art since the 90's. Was going to the Sand Hills with him next month for a couple of weeks. Don't know what's going to happen now. Hope she does well. Best Wishes.

[markj]

I dont get your attack on me,

I wasnt attacking you, from the postings you made I was under the impression you dont know what is going on at all. Sorry if it looked like an "attack". our questions make it look like you are against breeders or something.

If I offer a dog for free, you can belive it is one of the best I have. I dont give trash to anyone let alone a handicapped gent lives in a wheelchair.

I also dont charge more for females, or color when I have a litter which isnt often. They are just dogs, a tool to be used.

Art's wife is the hospital right now.

I best find out which one and send a card. She is/was pres of the local gsp club, she does a lot of hard work in thsi area for the club etc. I wish them meetings were some other night and earlier so I can go to a few. Art had a bad fall a few years ago, he was pretty chipper last time I seen him. He has had dogs for sale since I was a kid, advertised in Field and stream. Used to give me a tickle to point it out when I lived in chicago for 6th grade he has been doing it for that long.