COULD ANY BIRDDOG BE VERSATILE??

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:37 am

I was just training with a friend the other day with his labs and they are great dogs in the field and water, we started talking about VERSATILE dogs..he said the next pup he purchases may be a GSP due to their versatility but that he also was now thinking about a BRITT because he saw a few last season that would hunt ANYTHING..IN YOUR OPINION, can all birddogs do it all if exposed to it all and given the chance?....ruth

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:41 am

sure, now do it all well is another story.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:43 am

Under average conditions I believe the the short answer is yes.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:46 am

I believe most dogs would be sufficient. Sufficient isn't good enough for me. Owner expectation and definition of versatile sets the bar for each dog.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:59 am

brad27 wrote:Under average conditions I believe the the short answer is yes.

It is the water aspect of 'versatility' that is the major obstacle for some of the smaller breeds, likewise heat tolerance, for example, can be the major obstacle for the larger breeds, a Lab is a good example of this.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:20 am

Yes...as long as the dog is mentally wired for it. Not every dog can sit quietly in a duck blind for hours. Many have difficulty turning off the rockets and doing the obedient chores. But, yes, I believe there are dogs in every breed that could be very serviceable Vdogs....but extraordinary Vdogs are rare even in the best Vdog lines and I would not go looking for one among longtails.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:32 am

Ruth -

I am of the opinion that just about any breed of birddog could be trained to be a serviceable gundog. Pointers can be encouraged to swim, labs can be encouraged to point. Both can be "encouraged" to chase rabbits.

Sitting still in a duck blind or dove field might take some doing.

A pointer or setter or Brittany or GSP or DK, GWP or DD, will never replace a Lab in a goose blind or for flowing water retreives where the water is hovering near freezing.

No breed of horse, other than a thoroughbred will ever win the Preakness or the Belmont, even if they would be allowed to race. Thoroughbreds have been bred with superiorty at this kind of race as a defined goal. Same with bird dogs.

RayG

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:46 am

RayGubernat wrote:A pointer or setter or Brittany or GSP or DK, GWP or DD, will never replace a Lab in a goose blind or for flowing water retreives where the water is hovering near freezing.

What about a Wesslpointer ?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:29 pm

EVERY breed of birddog has individuals dogs able to all of the things needed to be considered "versatile" and do them well. Not every dog of the traditional "versatile" breeds are able to complete all the "versatile" tasks well. You just get a higher percentage of individuals able to the work with the versatile breeds.

Our board member Ckirsh (sp?) has a pointer out of notable lines that completed his VC title, I would say that dog is above average regardless of breed.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:35 pm

How do you get them to chase rabbits?

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:56 pm

Not much uglier, or less needed, than a Polychoke, IMHO.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:57 pm

Just a plain ole Yes they can.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:44 pm

There is no one definition of "versatile". What I want in a versatile dog is almost certainly not what someone else wants.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:57 pm

How do you get them to chase rabbits?

I think you have to tie bird wings to them.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:58 pm

ACooper wrote:EVERY breed of birddog has individuals dogs able to all of the things needed to be considered "versatile" and do them well. Not every dog of the traditional "versatile" breeds are able to complete all the "versatile" tasks well. You just get a higher percentage of individuals able to the work with the versatile breeds.

Our board member Ckirsh (sp?) has a pointer out of notable lines that completed his VC title, I would say that dog is above average regardless of breed.

Why, thanks, Coop! You just made my day.

Regarding versatility, as Greg mentioned, it means different things to different people. While my dog did pass the Invitational, to be honest I doubt many full-time waterfowlers would be interested in him. He'll perform blinds and double-marks, but probably not with enough precision to satisfy hard-core retriever folks. I'm not much of a waterfowler, so I've not attempted to spend a day in a blind with him. He might be fine, but he might also whine so much that he'd drive me crazy. (I plan to find out this fall.) The short coat is great for the high temps of early-season hunts, but obviously won't work for prolonged sessions of ice-breaking like a wirehaired breed's would. I also won't be putting him on any hogs, or coursing coyotes with him, which seem to be prerequisites for versatility is some folks' books. And although I like to think he's pretty special in the field, I'm guessing he'd make the All-Age field trialers yawn because he doesn't have the 800-yard range they value so much.

At the end of the day, I can hunt a variety of upland and waterfowl species with him, he points and retrieves reliably, he's been competitive enough in some of the NAVHDA tests and NSTRA trials I've run him in, and he usually makes me smile. I can't really ask for much more than that, and it fits my definition of versatile. I'm guessing that there are a lot of fine dogs with similar abilities run by members of this forum that would qualify as well.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:14 pm

gittrdonebritts wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:A pointer or setter or Brittany or GSP or DK, GWP or DD, will never replace a Lab in a goose blind or for flowing water retreives where the water is hovering near freezing.
What about a Wesslpointer ?

A WHAT??

RayG

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:17 pm

Chukar12 wrote:How do you get them to chase rabbits?

Despite over a hundred years of selective breeding, most of mine seem to be quite ready, willing and able to chase rabbits with absolutely no encouragement from me, thank you very much.

Dirty Blackhearted SOB's!!

RayG

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:35 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Dirty Blackhearted SOB

Who told you my dogs name ?

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:39 pm

http://www.trader.co.nz/versatiledogs/a ... derjag.htm

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:02 pm

My dad had a 7 dollar pet store Lab\English Pointer cross that hunted ANYTHING! she retrieved Geese almost as big as her. She pointed upland game, Pheasant, Quail. I would say it's about exposure... and if you want the dog to, "Do it all" then expose the dog "To all"

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:57 pm

A WHAT??

RayG

Its a pointing lab with a docked tail and no papers

:roll:

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:21 am

Chukar12 wrote:How do you get them to chase rabbits?

It is a fairly long and complicated force process and you probably need help from a pro with experience in this area before you try it yourself.

Charlie

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:41 am

Breaking a dog on fur (steady to flush shot and kill) is no more difficult than breaking a dog on feathers. Running 4 dogs two days ago, a doe ran across in front of us to decoy the dogs. The two older dogs stopped to the flush and the two pups took up the chase....not for long....both felt the discomfort of electrical stimulation...enough to stop them not to burn them. Same as we do with birds...take the chase away.

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:58 am

BIrd dogs can to make v. Here my pointer

In participating in a retriever competition n - category puppies she was seven months where he earned a place

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDxhI7Xass4

IN the hare she she was able to trace without seeing and without lowering the head. Could bring back the hare to follow after giving you even kilometers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSSaT_J_ztA

as a derby match and still was not yet firm to the flight and the shot but if the sample. The golden was one year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNMyz9dG1Pk

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:17 am

There are traits in every breed that naturally come out better than others. I like to take most of my dogs to a train day and see how they react to the ducks..It's funny, I have seen some DD's that looked at them with disdain, some dogs will naturally chase, some will stay at it unless they loose the duck, then you have to train the desire into them. It seems some dogs detest the ducks and some have a natural love of them, at first sight. The dog that naturally will stay out and search a duck with no training is amazing...I have had dogs that cannot resist a deer chase and love to chase a Jack rabbit...Some that love one and do not care for the other...Go figure...End of the day the traits in each individual dog is only his own...We can do what we can as a trainer to bring on the desire or kill it!!!!

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:13 am

It depends on what your defintion of versatile is. If you are think of a dog that hunts fur and feathers then I'm not so sure any dog can be versatile. My english setter and my lab to a certain extent would not make very good fur dogs. Sure both will chase fur when it busts in front of them, but neither will give a very long chase especially my setter. I don't have a struggle to call my dogs off fur. Now even if I encouraged my setter to chase fur I doubt she'd have the same drive as she does when hunting birds. My lab may have been able to make a serviceable fur dog, but compared to some others I've seen I would say that with a lot of certainty.

Now if you're thinking of versatile as more of a multiple bird species dog then I would be more inclined to say yes.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:08 am

Eliciting prey drive is easy - fleeing prey - maintaining the drive is what separates the good from the not so good.
Putting a dog on an unseen rabbit track and having that dog follow for a few hundred feet or even yards is what sepataes the versatile from the not so versatile. Searching for a duck with no splash,shot or scent present and having the dog continue, someimes for an hour or more, until the dog is called back is what separates the wannabees from the real deal.
To date, I have not seen an EP retrieve or search for an object or prey w/o a visual or a shot.
I appreciate the videos of the dogs swimming but swimming is not a versatile trait.

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:07 am

adogslife wrote: Putting a dog on an unseen rabbit track and having that dog follow for a few hundred feet or even yards is what sepataes the versatile from the not so versatile. .

Completely agree. I had continental dogs bread and appreciate but very few follow a hare until it turn around as the pointer that went up in my video. In fact I've only seen him do hounds.

Searching for a duck with no splash,shot or scent present and having the dog continue, someimes for an hour or more, until the dog is called back is what separates the wannabees from the real deal. Agree
To date, I have not seen an EP retrieve or search for an object or prey w/o a visual or a shot.
I appreciate the videos of the dogs swimming but swimming is not a versatile trait

My pointer dg video is retrieving a ball , pigeons and ducks also recovered.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:32 am

Oscar

my post was not in reply to yours
I can see how you may have thought that

My post was in response to the many testimonials and videos posted over the years attempting to show versatile dogs working

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:42 am

I understand well now, thank you

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:03 pm

adogslife wrote:To date, I have not seen an EP retrieve or search for an object or prey w/o a visual or a shot.
I appreciate the videos of the dogs swimming but swimming is not a versatile trait.

While there are admittedly not a lot of pointers run in NAVHDA, several have become VC's. Can't get there without performing a 100-yard water blind with no visual or shot.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:13 pm

UT has shots at the water.
While the water blind can be a challenge, not too difficult to teach a dog to take a line. This is basic retriever foundation.

Georgia Boy · Post by **Georgia Boy** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:02 pm

There are always a few exceptions, heck I once saw a Dalmatian trained to the UT level, would I buy one and try to hunt it like I do my "versatile dogs", NO.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:43 pm

adogslife wrote:UT has shots at the water.
While the water blind can be a challenge, not too difficult to teach a dog to take a line. This is basic retriever foundation.

I was referring to the Invitational, not the UT. You've undoubtedly run some dogs through the VC level, so you're aware that no shots are fired during the blind retrieve, nor does the dog see the duck. You stated earlier that pointers won't retrieve or search for game without a shot or visual. I'm sorry, but that's just not the case. Some do. I'd venture to guess that quite a few pointers and setters can be sent out on a "dead bird" command to search for and retrieve fallen birds without having heard a shot or watched the bird fall. I suppose it could be said that this is basic bird dog foundation.

I've already recognized my dog's limitations, and the fact that while I'm happy with him, there would be people at either end of the "versatile" spectrum who probably wouldn't be. Hoping this doesn't turn into a "your breed sucks" thread, as I doubt that is what the OP was interested in.

vols fan · Post by **vols fan** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:05 am

ckirsch , you said what counts. He usually makes me smile.. Nothing else matters, period.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:19 am

Every dog and every breed of dog lives and performs on the "bell curve".

The whole idea of "versatility" is the "bell curve". Events in the "tails", ie. Black Swan events, make for good conversation but generally don't matter much to the average guy who has a dog, a few shotguns and a few days here and there to get away from stuff. To that guy, testing or even selecting for certain "tails" is just not important because nature won't present those "tails" to you. A good example of this is the Chessie. Let's be honest, how many duck hunters really need that capability, especially in-land guys? Not too many. The need for that is the "tail" event.

When you look at the group of accepted "versatile dogs" it is clear that some will do better in the "tails" of the curve for each task. People value each "bell curve" differently.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:03 am

I have not run at the VC level and there in lies my error.
I was under the impression that at the blind the dog was sent on a cast to the other side to retrieve a duck placed there.
I had no idea there was an actual duck search in the water.
Casting a dog would be too easy, of course they would include a search, since they removed the duck search and replaced it with a mark.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:51 am

adogslife wrote: I have not seen an EP retrieve or search for an object or prey w/o a visual or a shot.

Your statement implies that pointers won't retrieve birds without the prior cue of a visual or shot. That's where you're in error. The Invitational requires a dog to retrieve the duck during the blind, without a shot fired, or the dog having first seen the bird. There have been many times during upland hunts where I've used my dog to find and retrieve birds downed by others, out of sight of the dog. I take him to the area where the bird is suspected to be, and give him a dead bird command, after which he searches for and retrieves the bird. He'll also search a swamp or dam without having to hear shots or see birds drop. Not really noteworthy (unless someone makes a claim to the contrary) and something most pointers are capable of. It's worth mentioning that NAVHDA pups (including pointers) have to follow a track just to get through the NA test, which includes searching and quite often retrieving. No shot or visual there, either.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:46 am

No need to confirm that pointers have a nose and a dam good one at that!
Maybe we will start to see videos of pointers actually do such work. Instead of the usual tossed dummy in water and air scenting of birds.

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:10 am

Is very difficult to appreciate a pointer as versatile. Weimaraner dogs I've had for 17 years some Germanic blood which were truly versatile and I know v, then for 25 years I have had specialists. The pointer of my video for example is charging the bird in a competition against labs and took a third, then competed as an adult with multiple in water waves, against eleven labs and take a second.

Beat in the hare 3 hounds that go see in the video and I have a video where you see the bite that she came across a wounded deer after she take it out, but to the people do not like to see a pointer like v. Nobody sees my videos pointer as versatile, because I think that is not approved pointer use as versatile.

NO problem, I have more than two decades and I have not tried it or even let my pointer retriving dead quail , the lab does.

MY dog now...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLUuMgslWW8

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:29 am

adogslife wrote:No need to confirm that pointers have a nose and a dam good one at that!
Maybe we will start to see videos of pointers actually do such work. Instead of the usual tossed dummy in water and air scenting of birds.

You just don't give up, do you?

Although representatives of the breed are not commonly tested in NAVHDA (the most recognized organization to promote the training and use of versatile hunting dogs), the fact that pointers have succeeded at the group's highest testing levels would seem to disprove your insinuation that the breed is not capable of "versatile" work. Contrary to your repeated claims, they can, and do, search for and retrieve game without visual or audio cues. Not sure why you continue to dispute that in the face of fairly incontrovertible evidence. Dogs have to track in the NA, perform a 150-yard downwind track of a drag in the UT, and complete the fore mentioned blind retrieve in the Invitational, all without a shot fired or a bird seen. Not sure how that can be disputed, but you're sure giving it a heck of a try. Pointers might not be as consistently adept at those tasks as the more commonly-accepted versatile breeds such as GSP's and wires, but the myth that they can't retrieve / swim / search / track has been repeatedly disproven. As for air scenting, in actual hunting conditions, I could give a rip if a dog follows ground scent or air scent, as long as it locates the quarry.

I'm ok with you having an issue of some type with pointers, as it would be a little boring if we all ran the same breed, but you're simply wrong to claim that the breed is incapable of versatile work.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:45 am

I didn't say pointers are incapable.