Is my trainer telling the truth?

[ben33127]

For the last 4 months my male ep has been with a trainer. When i sent him I wanted him broke wing to shot, I will say the dog had very little hunt time under his belt. I called the trainer and he said he is doing great pointing and HOLDING, and listening to whoa. I think he is correct just want to hear from you guys. He said hunt over him this season and kill some birds to get him really birdy which he is, and bring him back next march and he can be broke wing to shot.......does this sound correct? Thanks in advance!

[snips]

Every dog is different on how long they take. Sometimes it depends on how well the dog is started when the trainer gets them...If a dog is started pretty good we usually get them steady to wing in a couple of months..Usually a month on pigeons then a month on quail....You do not say dogs age either...

[ben33127]

He is 18 months.

[kninebirddog]

Ditto Age and the dogs maturity level
where the dog was at when he got there and what the dog can handle and still keep drive desire and style there.

[ben33127]

Snips,
Sent pm

[PkerStr8Tail]

He is 18 months.

It depends on what you want as the end product. If you want him broke quickly at such a young age that can be done with a ton a pressure but the dog probably wont look good doing it and could develop bad ahbits like blinking birds. You need to make sure you are on the same page with the trainer on what you want the end product to look like rather than just broke. I have seen a lot of "broke" dogs and that was what they were broke down.

[ymepointer]

Pointer in general are very early maturing, so this doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I sold a pup to a fellow and they were shooting birds over it at 4 months old, and it was broke to flush at that age...Each dog is different but pointers (English pointers) in general usually are very early developing.

[birddog1968]

He is 18 months.

It depends on what you want as the end product. If you want him broke quickly at such a young age that can be done with a ton a pressure

It can be done with almost no pressure too if the dog is of the mind and maturity to pick it up.....

There's more than one way to skin a cat....errrr train a birddog

[Wagonmaster]

I think your pro is right on. from the sounds of it the dog had not had much bird experience before going to the pro, and it is an 18 month old dog. it is very important that the pup get lots of bird exposure under its belt before putting the pressure on it. ideally, the pup should have had that bird work before it was one year old. those suggesting that a dog can be broke at a young age, such as 18 months, are right, but what is missing from the posts is that to get that done, the pup should have been on birds since it was weeks old, and should have had lots of bird experience last summer and fall.

your pro is exactly right to make the dog steady, and then have you hunt the dog extensively this fall. next year, when the dog has lots of bird experience, would be a good time to break it.

[topher40]

Having a good working relationship with your pro is key. If you have to question the pro in a forum such as this that allows the "expertise" that you have to sift through raises concerns for me. If I were training your dog for you and saw that you were second guessing the opinion (that your paying for) I would be pissed and it would really raise some concerns with me. It helps to have a level of blind trust, even if you dont know your pro personally. Good luck with the dog and take your time with the dog and the pro. You have the whole rest of the dogs life to have it broke, so dont try and peak to soon.

[Chukar12]

I agree that your trainer has a workable plan for you. Like some others I would add a note of caution, I believe there are no finished dogs, they are all recovering chasers...A young dog is often broke in a trainers hands, and an inexperienced handler might believe they have bought and paid for an infallable product. It just ain't so...The work a trainer does must be supplemented with discipline and education on any handlers part. That dog will test its training under your whistle, and the reaction you have to the test will determine the level of "broke" you get in the long run.

[snips]

Are you able to go see the dog work? It is good to see the dog occasionally so you know what your trainer is talking about...

[Soignie]

Your pup is a youngster barely into his "teens" in human terms so don't be in a rush. That said, after 4 months with a pro, any pro, if the dog has an average level of EP drive/desire he certainly should be finding/holding birds consistently by now. As for asking questions on this forum it is a great way to get feedback and opinions, you do have to have a level of confidence in your pro and you should be able to ask him straight up if the dog is showing the potential to achieve whatever it is you have in mind (and your pro should know what you have in mind for the dog). At the end of the day the pro is your employee, if he/she resents you asking questions here and elsewhere then fire their sorry butt and hire another employee. There are plenty of trainers out there and in these economic times they are looing for work, summer is an especially good time to send a young dog north where they can be exposed to tons of birds over the next few months.

[snips]

I will say what I told you in a pm...Make a trip to see the dog (whether he likes it or not, it is your dog...) If you think the dog is looking good, leave him, if not, get him home.....

[ben33127]

Snips, Thanks for the advice, it is good to know people like you will take time to advise as opposed to tellling me what I am doing wrong. I will contact you soon to hopefully set up a date you can evaluate him.

[3Britts]

Every dog is different, and will progress at its own rate.
Have you gone to any of the training with the dog and trainer?
You should take a day and work the dog with the trainer there so that you know how it is progressing.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[bossman]

I think your trainer is giving you good advice. However, I think he would have known after thirty day's if the dog had the maturity and bird exposure needed for the "breaking" process. You gave him specific instructions. I am disappointed he did not notify you as soon as he realized that he would not be able meet your expectations and explain why. jmo

[Tejas]

I agree that your trainer has a workable plan for you. Like some others I would add a note of caution, I believe there are no finished dogs, they are all recovering chasers. ..A young dog is often broke in a trainers hands, and an inexperienced handler might believe they have bought and paid for an infallable product. It just ain't so...The work a trainer does must be supplemented with discipline and education on any handlers part. That dog will test its training under your whistle, and the reaction you have to the test will determine the level of "broke" you get in the long run.

This quote is in the running for the best I have viewed on this forum.

[BoJack]

What Wagonmaster and Topher40 said.

[Georgia Boy]

At that age and after 4 months I would either be looking for another trainer or another dog.

[ben33127]

I am not a bird dog genious, but isnt four motnhs a little early to cull a dog?

[slistoe]

4 months seems like a long time for a trainer to get a dog whoa broke and steady to flush

I dunno, I had one that wasn't broke after 14 years. But then I'm not a pro.

[ultracarry]

I agree that your trainer has a workable plan for you. Like some others I would add a note of caution, I believe there are no finished dogs, they are all recovering chasers...A young dog is often broke in a trainers hands, and an inexperienced handler might believe they have bought and paid for an infallable product. It just ain't so...The work a trainer does must be supplemented with discipline and education on any handlers part. That dog will test its training under your whistle, and the reaction you have to the test will determine the level of "broke" you get in the long run.

So what about a dog that has never been able to Chase? Could you expect a dog after it has been broke to be reliable but not infallible?

Sure isn't my dog who has been picked up.a.few times but seems like.the way to go.

[slistoe]

but seems like.the way to go.

You should try it on a couple of dogs and see what you think. I have.

[Chukar12]

by ultracarry

So what about a dog that has never been able to Chase? Could you expect a dog after it has been broke to be reliable but not infallible?

Sure isn't my dog who has been picked up.a.few times but seems like.the way to go

by slistoe

You should try it on a couple of dogs and see what you think. I have.

I uhh...I uhhh...well I haven't tried it. I have let every dog chase, (probably more than anything else because I expose them to wild birds in the desert) and I guess I believe that whether they are allowed to or not, they all want to, especially when they are young. It has to be more fun than standing there for a youngster. I suggest you may get a dog standing more reliably quicker, but you would need to read the dog...I sure do like that on the edge look full of attention to a bird in flight, and again I default to the more experienced in broader training scenarios, I would be darn careful about disciplining that out of pups.
It may have its place, but like anything else in the wrong hands it could cause troubles. In any event, i stand by the comment that none are finished, all are imperfect and no matter what magic training wand has been waved over them, they may all decide to go on a romp any given day.

[slistoe]

Hey Chukar, chase away is my motto. Have fun and can do no wrong till we get serious. Just wouldn't want to say it was "the way" without having experienced the other.
Like I say, I tried it with a couple of dogs.