Tri Colored Pointers

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Tri Colored Pointers

Post by madmurph » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:40 pm

Let me start by saying that I am a vizsla guy. I have always had vizslas and will always have vizslas. However, my next addition will be a pointer, likely in the not too distant future. Recently I have seen a handfull of tri colored pointers. The ones that I have seen have had only a small bit of brown, however very noticeable, (actually, I'm not sure if it is liver or orange coloring) along with the black. These dogs were all called tri colors by the owners or breeders. Not being overly familiar with the breed, I have several questions.

Is a tri color considered a genetic fault in the breed? What causes the tri coloring and why is it not common? What color are they registered as? (In particular, if dual registering the dog with AKC.) And finally, is the brown coloring considered liver or orange? It seems to be somewhere inbetween, appearing almost reddish in color in the ones that I have seen.

I hope this doesn't cause any arguments over your thoughts on tri colors, just looking for some facts as well as your opinions on the tri colors.
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 01, 2011 4:26 am

The orange should appear in a distinct pattern, like the markings on a black and tan Doberman, but usually not that much orange. It is a rust color. It is not something that most people want to see. The dog is registered as either black or liver. I believe it is a recessive, but I'd have to look it up. Pointers could come by it honestly, from foxhound influence back over a hundred years. Some attribute it to more recent and less honest introduction of setter blood.

I've never seen a black tri pointer, but have seen ghost tan on the faces of a couple of livers, brow spots and along the cheeks.
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by shags » Sun May 01, 2011 5:23 am

"A good pointer cannot be a bad color"

Ever hear of CH Strut? :D

The genetics of tricolor in pointers isn't well understood if it's understood at all - maybe because it doesn't matter, maybe because the color is rare enough that breeding them isn't feasible.

If you think tris are strange, wait til you see a solid black :wink:

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by PntrRookie » Sun May 01, 2011 6:00 am

shags wrote:"A good pointer cannot be a bad color" ...CH Strut? :D
Ch. Strut.jpg
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by ezzy333 » Sun May 01, 2011 7:39 am

Cajun Casey wrote:The orange should appear in a distinct pattern, like the markings on a black and tan Doberman, but usually not that much orange. It is a rust color. It is not something that most people want to see. The dog is registered as either black or liver. I believe it is a recessive, but I'd have to look it up. Pointers could come by it honestly, from foxhound influence back over a hundred years. Some attribute it to more recent and less honest introduction of setter blood.

I've never seen a black tri pointer, but have seen ghost tan on the faces of a couple of livers, brow spots and along the cheeks.
There is no written standard for pointers so there is no distinct pattern it should appear in. As already said it has been around for a long time.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by cjuve » Sun May 01, 2011 8:11 am

I kinda like the tri colored ones, the long haired ones............... now that might be taking it a litle to far. But IMO putting that blood back in there may be putting something back that was inadvertantly bred out and I ain't talking about the long hair.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by TexasAggie09 » Sun May 01, 2011 8:34 am

You may find some setter blood way back in those tri-colored pointers. Just saying.......

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by shags » Sun May 01, 2011 8:58 am

Way back? Maybe not so much. :wink:

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 01, 2011 9:54 am

ezzy333 wrote: There is no written standard for pointers so there is no distinct pattern it should appear in. As already said it has been around for a long time.

Ezzy
Color and pattern distribution are governed by genetics. Dogs cannot have random solid patches of two different colors on a white ground (like a calico cat). The secondary "point" color must follow genetic rules. Call it rust, orange or copper, the pattern is called "tan" in genetics and "tricolored" on a white bodied dog. Depending on the presence of a dilution, you can also have liver (or chestnut) tricolors. Tricolored usually means black as the base color, unless the breed has a dilute.
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by ezzy333 » Sun May 01, 2011 11:10 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: There is no written standard for pointers so there is no distinct pattern it should appear in. As already said it has been around for a long time.

Ezzy
Color and pattern distribution are governed by genetics. Dogs cannot have random solid patches of two different colors on a white ground (like a calico cat). The secondary "point" color must follow genetic rules. Call it rust, orange or copper, the pattern is called "tan" in genetics and "tricolored" on a white bodied dog. Depending on the presence of a dilution, you can also have liver (or chestnut) tricolors. Tricolored usually means black as the base color, unless the breed has a dilute.
So what was your point with this post.
The orange should appear in a distinct pattern, like the markings on a black and tan Doberman, but usually not that much orange. It is a rust color
You have made two posts now that say something different but we are right back to what we all knew before both of them.

We are back to the fact there is no written standard that says anything about distinct patterns in the pointer. In a Brit their is and some do not conform as there are different patterns.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by displaced_texan » Sun May 01, 2011 3:13 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: There is no written standard for pointers so there is no distinct pattern it should appear in. As already said it has been around for a long time.

Ezzy
Color and pattern distribution are governed by genetics. Dogs cannot have random solid patches of two different colors on a white ground (like a calico cat). The secondary "point" color must follow genetic rules. Call it rust, orange or copper, the pattern is called "tan" in genetics and "tricolored" on a white bodied dog. Depending on the presence of a dilution, you can also have liver (or chestnut) tricolors. Tricolored usually means black as the base color, unless the breed has a dilute.
So what was your point with this post.
The orange should appear in a distinct pattern, like the markings on a black and tan Doberman, but usually not that much orange. It is a rust color
You have made two posts now that say something different but we are right back to what we all knew before both of them.

We are back to the fact there is no written standard that says anything about distinct patterns in the pointer. In a Brit their is and some do not conform as there are different patterns.

Ezzy
You are the only one talking about a written standard Ezzy, if you know enough about how genetics work you can say how things SHOULD work/appear/show, which seems to be what Casey is doing.

I knew you knew everything about feeds, I didn't know you knew everything about genetics as well.
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by ymepointer » Sun May 01, 2011 3:22 pm

I believe there is a little setter close up in that strut breeding....Droppers are not uncommon in the South, at least not when I was a kid. I suspect one showed up with some Skills and was repapered by a trialer. I believe Ross Callaway showed a picture of a pup double bred from that line that was a longhair. Go to the Fieldtrialer site and search blackhawk or Strut and you will probably find it. I also believe there are a couple of written standards for the pointer, however, the pointer in the US is predominantly a performance breed and so the Standard , either FCi or AKC are largely ignored just like the performance breedings in most other breeds.(Check out the Brit that won the AF Texas AM Brittany Championships on page 30 of the American field APR 16th issue :P ) :lol:
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by ezzy333 » Sun May 01, 2011 3:25 pm

ymepointer wrote:I believe there is a little setter close up in that strut breeding....Droppers are not uncommon in the South, at least not when I was a kid. I suspect one showed up with some Skills and was repapered by a trialer. I believe Ross Callaway showed a picture of a pup double bred from that line that was a longhair. Go to the Fieldtrialer site and search blackhawk or Strut and you will probably find it.
I know it has been rumored at least but do not want to pass on something that hasn't been proven.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by dudleysmith » Sun May 01, 2011 3:46 pm

gpblitz wrote:
ymepointer wrote:I believe Ross Callaway showed a picture of a pup double bred from that line that was a longhair.
Yes Ross did show picture of longhair Tricolor pointer pups. He picked no bones about droppers.

I dont think it was tri color but it was long haired....

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by ACooper » Sun May 01, 2011 5:07 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I've never seen a black tri pointer, but have seen ghost tan on the faces of a couple of livers, brow spots and along the cheeks.
Not sure if you meant at all or in person on the b&w here is a picture of one, there are a few more floating around the web. Hope the owner of the dog or photo don't mind me reposting.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 01, 2011 5:23 pm

ACooper wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:I've never seen a black tri pointer, but have seen ghost tan on the faces of a couple of livers, brow spots and along the cheeks.
Not sure if you meant at all or in person on the b&w.....
In person.
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by ACooper » Sun May 01, 2011 9:22 pm

Careful folks, way too much talk about cross breeding... if this was a gsp x pointer thread it would be locked or deleted ASAP!

Remember crossbreeding of any kind never took place unless you were there to see it with your own eyes!

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 01, 2011 9:34 pm

ACooper wrote:Careful folks, way too much talk about cross breeding... if this was a gsp x pointer thread it would be locked or deleted ASAP!

Remember crossbreeding of any kind never took place unless you were there to see it with your own eyes!
I personally know of a JRT x pointer litter. It wasn't something anyone intended to happen and they made sure it never, ever happened again.
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by nikegundog » Sun May 01, 2011 9:45 pm

I personally know of a JRT x pointer litter. It wasn't something anyone intended to happen and they made sure it never, ever happened again.
How did they turn out? Did they dock the tail? If they docked it, did it look more like a pointer,JRT or GSP?

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 01, 2011 9:53 pm

nikegundog wrote:
I personally know of a JRT x pointer litter. It wasn't something anyone intended to happen and they made sure it never, ever happened again.
How did they turn out? Did they dock the tail? If they docked it, did it look more like a pointer,JRT or GSP?
They looked like long legged bulky JRTs, white with masks, tails full length. The could climb like cats, the last one getting his walking papers when he developed the habit of getting up on the ridgepole of the barn and inciting the other dogs to bark. B'lieve it or not, the momma was the JRT.
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by prairiefirepointers » Sun May 01, 2011 10:07 pm

ACooper wrote:Remember crossbreeding of any kind never took place unless you were there to see it with your own eyes!
I was told the exact same thing after my wife's family reunion in Arkansas. :lol:
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Wa Chukar Hunter » Mon May 02, 2011 5:47 am

ezzy333 wrote:
ymepointer wrote:I believe there is a little setter close up in that strut breeding....Droppers are not uncommon in the South, at least not when I was a kid. I suspect one showed up with some Skills and was repapered by a trialer. I believe Ross Callaway showed a picture of a pup double bred from that line that was a longhair. Go to the Fieldtrialer site and search blackhawk or Strut and you will probably find it.
I know it has been rumored at least but do not want to pass on something that hasn't been proven.

Ezzy
Rumor or not - I have really liked the Blackhawk dogs I have seen and trained. Might be because I am a setter guy. :lol: :D
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by ymepointer » Tue May 03, 2011 6:48 pm

dudleysmith wrote:
gpblitz wrote:
ymepointer wrote:I believe Ross Callaway showed a picture of a pup double bred from that line that was a longhair.
Yes Ross did show picture of longhair Tricolor pointer pups. He picked no bones about droppers.

I dont think it was tri color but it was long haired....

IIRC it was BOTH :D

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by ACooper » Tue May 03, 2011 7:12 pm

The pup, posted previously on this forum. Looks like a little more than a "rumor" to me.


Image
Image

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Yahoo » Tue May 03, 2011 8:26 pm

Looks like an Open Range pup. :P :lol: :lol:

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by tommyboy72 » Tue May 03, 2011 8:27 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:
ACooper wrote:Remember crossbreeding of any kind never took place unless you were there to see it with your own eyes!
I was told the exact same thing after my wife's family reunion in Arkansas. :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

I think my wife's family is pretty closely linebred too, at least I tease her about it all the time. :lol:

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Elkhunter » Tue May 03, 2011 8:28 pm

ACooper wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:I've never seen a black tri pointer, but have seen ghost tan on the faces of a couple of livers, brow spots and along the cheeks.
Not sure if you meant at all or in person on the b&w here is a picture of one, there are a few more floating around the web. Hope the owner of the dog or photo don't mind me reposting.

Image
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue May 03, 2011 8:34 pm

Yahoo wrote:Looks like an Open Range pup. :P :lol: :lol:

Nah, they've got more color.
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by tommyboy72 » Tue May 03, 2011 8:52 pm

After viewing this thread, my curiousity got the best of me so I did some digging and most of the websites I came upon on the net allowed for tri colored pointers. Even the AKC stated that a good pointer could not be a bad color. Of course I don't put much store in the AKC sine I have not registered a dog with them in probably 17 years but it sounds like even they are not opposed to tri colors. The pic of the dog that was posted is a beautiful specimen of a pointer but give me a predominantly white bodied dog any day. That being said I have a dog who is lemon and wht, another that is black and white, another that is all white so far and yet another who is liver and white but 3 of the 4 have fairly clean white bodies other than my black and white male. I guess a pointer with a clean white body and a tri colored head would not be so bad.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by bwjohn » Tue May 03, 2011 8:54 pm

Hope the owner of the dog or photo don't mind me reposting.
don't know how anyone could be upset showing off that beautiful animal.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by ACooper » Tue May 03, 2011 9:30 pm

gpblitz wrote:
tommyboy72 wrote:After viewing this thread, my curiousity got the best of me so I did some digging and most of the websites I came upon on the net allowed for tri colored pointers. Even the AKC stated that a good pointer could not be a bad color. Of course I don't put much store in the AKC sine I have not registered a dog with them in probably 17 years but it sounds like even they are not opposed to tri colors. The pic of the dog that was posted is a beautiful specimen of a pointer but give me a predominantly white bodied dog any day. That being said I have a dog who is lemon and wht, another that is black and white, another that is all white so far and yet another who is liver and white but 3 of the 4 have fairly clean white bodies other than my black and white male. I guess a pointer with a clean white body and a tri colored head would not be so bad.
There is no dought the pointer pictured is a great spiciment and with the color combo in the breed this tri could happen. My question is how the long haired EP justified even tho the topic is tri color a longhair is pictured.
I posted the longhaired pup because of the talk of the setter cross being a "rumor".

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by tommyboy72 » Tue May 03, 2011 9:44 pm

So many die hards sticking to the old breed standards that did not allow for tri coloreds most likely. Everyone is always willing to say there is a setter in the woodpile if a pointer comes out with more than 2 colors. I'm sure if some die hard pointer folks would have seen my male pointer today they would claim there is a lab in the woodpile somewhere. I took the wife and kids out in the backyard with me today and that male played fetch with the boys and wife for probably 2 hours, over and over and over again going and getting that "bleep" rope toy and an old tennis ball and fetching it back to hand every time. People like to make assumptions about things they don't understand or like or that are not on standard with the way they believe they should be. I will say this though, that little long hair did look like it was a throwback to setter blood if it came from the same litter as those other pups it was with and I am sure if Ross said it was then it was.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by hustonmc » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:00 pm

After the last month this is hilarious now!!!!!!!!!!! Didn't seem to blow up at all.....................wonder why :)

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by hustonmc » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:11 pm

ACooper wrote:Careful folks, way too much talk about cross breeding... if this was a gsp x pointer thread it would be locked or deleted ASAP!
Especially this part

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:18 pm

There is a pic of a tri colored Elhew pointer pup on Ross's Fieldtrial site now.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:39 am

I would have been surprised if an occasional black, tan and white Pointer did not appear from time to time. The pointers here in Britain were crossed with foxhounds at one time.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by birdogg42 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:04 am

I don't think it matters to much to the pointer people.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by gotpointers » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:47 pm

I am looking forward to having one. I have said it here many times " I don't care if its pink or green and only has three legs as long as it finds the most birds" a coyote can be the matron if that's what it takes. :D

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by birddog1968 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:49 pm

anyone got a pedigree on strut? Handsome son of a gun.
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by jcbuttry8 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:52 pm

gotpointers wrote:I am looking forward to having one. I have said it here many times " I don't care if its pink or green and only has three legs as long as it finds the most birds" a coyote can be the matron if that's what it takes. :D
I would definitely name a dog like this LUCKY. :mrgreen:

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by hustonmc » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:06 pm

birddog1968 wrote:anyone got a pedigree on strut? Handsome son of a gun.
Strut is by Rockacre Blackhawk, out of Pine Knoll's Pat. Pat is by Whippoorwill Hammer out of Pine Knoll's Babe. But........I don't think the dog pictured above is Strut though......... Is it???

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by birdogg42 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:21 pm

hustonmc wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:anyone got a pedigree on strut? Handsome son of a gun.
Strut is by Rockacre Blackhawk, out of Pine Knoll's Pat. Pat is by Whippoorwill Hammer out of Pine Knoll's Babe. But........I don't think the dog pictured above is Strut though......... Is it???
No it is not strut. The oil painting picture on first page is strut.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by rinker » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:13 am

birdogg42 wrote:I don't think it matters to much to the pointer people.
I am a pointer guy, and I do not care. You couldn't be more right.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by birdogg42 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:19 pm

maybe Hanshaw should raise pointers. he would catch alot less grief. Come to the dark side Hanshaw :D

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by codym » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:30 am

I have a son of blackhawk that is a tri color. You have to look close to see the tan coloring on his cheeks, it shows up best when the sun shines directly on it, he also has those tan dots above his eyes that seem like they have gotten a little darker lately. I think he is pretty cool looking. It seems like the "tri" colors are much more prominent in blackhawk dogs. I will try and take a picture but i'm not sure if it will show up clearly.

sckwest1
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by sckwest1 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:46 pm

that's because blackhawk is a setter cross. a well known fact. the pic of the pup earlier that came out shaggy in the pointer litter was a tight blackhawk breeding. if u go to tight not only will u get tricolor but a shag will appear occasionally. I was kind of suprised that he got elected into the HOF last year in his first year of elgibility with this fact being fairly well known. With that being said he was by all accounts an exceptional dog and without a doubt an exceptional producer! The blackhawk line has tremdous style as well, I could go on and on about all the positive things about this dog. My personal belief is that the setter is fairly close up in his pedigree for this trait to come out on a somewhat regular basis. Most people never mention the one or two pups that come out shaggy. SCK

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birdogg42
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by birdogg42 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:38 pm

And still people breed this line. Why? Because the pointer people don't care. They care about having good bird dogs.

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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by Ghosted3 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:41 pm

Darn it, I was hoping for a photo thread on them :D

Corry

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birdogg42
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Re: Tri Colored Pointers

Post by birdogg42 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:07 pm

ACooper wrote: Image
Image
Here u go corry

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Tri Colored Pointers

Post by ACooper » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Long hair and tri-color don't matter but heaven forbid a dog doesn't have an evenly marked head or a clean body or a 12 o'clock tail or a tail that cracks.

Please don't pretend that pointer people don't care about aesthetics.

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