GSPCA is voting on new breed standard change to ALLOW BLACK

[Ayres]

Ballots went out. You have to be a member of the GSP Club of America by January 1, 2006 to be eligible to vote. Don't throw away your ballots, and please vote to allow the black back into the standard.

History:
Black GSPs have been part of the standard in Germany, the country of origin, and were only disincluded from the AKC standard because the original breed standard records from Germany were lost when Hitler was in power. Hitler also did the best he could to eradicate the black GSPs by massive culling based solely on color. In fact, the only black lines to survive were either hidden or smuggled out of the country by the breeders.

The GSPCA has voted on this issue before, and the last time it was voted on it was defeated by very few votes. This time around the vote should get more 'ayes,' but all votes in favor are needed. If you're a member of the GSPCA, please vote!

[Wagonmaster]

Please, don't.

I agree with everything Ayres says about the black coat color being historically part of the breed. And I personally like black and white coats, having had that color in pointers in the past. I was initially very much in favor of this proposal and have written posts to that effect on this and on other boards.

However, as the debate has proceeded, I began to wonder where the black dogs are going to come from to fill this new slot in the registry. They are not going to come from AKC field dogs. There is no restriction on coat color in either hunt tests or field trials and never has been. Yet there are virtually no black and white dogs in the AKC field endeavors.

Nor is this really much of an AKC show issue. There are no black show dogs, because the standard excludes them.

This proposed change is intended to allow more DKV registered dogs to be sold into the US and registered with the AKC, plain and simple.

Fair is fair, and if the DKV allowed US dogs to be registered with the DKV so that US breeders could sell to Germany and US owners could participate in DKV and NADKC events, there would be reciprocity, and it would be fair to let DKV register here. But DKV and NADKC closed their books to exclude US registered dogs from their registry and from their tests some time ago, because they did not want the competition, and from their point of view, the breed pollution.

If this were 60 years ago and we were starting at square one, I would be all for it. As I said, I like that coat color. But this is not 1946. In 2006, the primary purpose of this proposal is to facilitate the importation of DK's into the US.

Unfortunately, as a practical matter, a vote for black coats is a vote for the DKV and a vote to inject more "old German lines" into today's breed.

[Crl]

I completely agree with Wagonmaster. I have already voted and voted NO!

crl

[Adam]

I'm not a huge fan of the black either but i do know of a kennel here in illinois that does run her "black" shorthairs in the field events. I've seen her dogs run at the hunt test i attended last year and i'd hunt behind one any day but wouldn't own one just not my thing
http://www.windrivers-gsp.com/

[Wagonmaster]

there are a small handful of US breeders of black dogs. I have received emails from two or three of them talking about the work they are doing in the field with their dogs. but in every case i am aware of, you will find DK imports within no more than 5 generations, and more often just in the last generation or two.

in any event, the "selling opportunity" for DKV is far greater than the possible benefit to the small number of US owners of black dogs, who have not been at it very long.

as i said, i do like the color. and if this proposal fails to pass, they are still welcome at trials, hunt tests and obedience.

[wannabe]

I am assuming that the black GSP's are allowed to be registered and run in field and performance competition, but they are DQ'ed in the show ring. The GWP folks had a similar vote last year, and it failed to pass.

With black being a dominant gene, the breeding of black dogs to black dogs could result in a dog that would produce blacks no matter what they are bred to.

If I still belonged to the GSPCA, I would vote against black.

[Ayres]

With black being a dominant gene, the breeding of black dogs to black dogs could result in a dog that would produce blacks no matter what they are bred to.

This isn't true. I just helped whelp a litter from Wind River Kennel, the kennel that Adam referenced. The sire is solid liver and the dam is black & white ticked. There were three liver & whites, three black & whites, three solid liver and three solid black.

I should be helping whelp a litter from a solid black dam in the next day or so too, and expect to get pretty much the same thing in color.

As far as how the color plays a factor... ALL GSPs were imported from Germany within the last 50 to 75 years, so they ALL go back to the DK lines if you look far back enough. And yes, all the black lines in the States do have german blood within the past five generations because that's when blacks were first able to be imported following their resurgence in Germany after WWII. Saying that there should be a no vote to black is the same as saying that it shouldn't be allowed simply because it wasn't there from the first import to the U.S. in the 1920s and 30s, because it sure as heck was in the lines in Germany the whole time.

And the reason you don't find very many black shorthairs in the States right now is because it is a DQ by the current standard. There are only a few lines because there are only a few breeders who have taken it upon themselves to maintain that part of the breed history. Others have kept away from those lines simply because of the color.

John, I really thought you were a "form follows function" type of guy, but your advocation to vote no for this proposal goes against that mindset. As I can attest, and as Adam said as well, the black shorthairs I have hunted behind and ran with at hunt tests and train on a daily basis with - I'd put a dog down behind them any day of the week. If the "form follows function" ideal is to be adhered to, then black should be allowed in the standard so long as the dogs can hunt. There are a few black shorthairs that I run with daily that have senior and master hunter titles.

The idea that this being a "selling opportunity" for imported DKVs overlooks the fact that the black color was historically part of the GSP and that continuing to prohibit it penalizes the breeders that have maintained black lines for a long time. I would like to know how you came up with the idea that the U.S. owners of the black lines "have not been at it very long," and how you reconcile that with the time when the black dogs were first able to be imported to the U.S.

[12 Volt Man]

How many of the Black colored GSP's are "naturally occuring" ones from German lines? Is that a majority? Or are the black and white ones more ofted the result of English Pointers, being bred in field trial dogs for more run?
I like a good dog regardless of color. I just wonder where the majority comes from.

[Wagonmaster]

John, I really thought you were a "form follows function" type of guy, but your advocation to vote no for this proposal goes against that mindset. As I can attest, and as Adam said as well, the black shorthairs I have hunted behind and ran with at hunt tests and train on a daily basis with - I'd put a dog down behind them any day of the week.

i agree, it is a contradictory position to take. not so much on "form follows function" grounds. it is contradictory because i like that coat color and i believe it is historically part of the breed in other countries.

but as i watched the debate progressed, it became obvious to me that the "black" slot if allowed, would be filled primarily by DKV dogs. if have pretty much had it with DK's marketing.

i really do not want to argue it here. if you want to see what the debate is, or at least a big part of it, go over to http://www.shorthairs.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1926. you will have to read through quite a bit of stuff to get to the interesting part, the last half.

i am sorry i cannot support this. i know that there are breeders who have worked long and hard on the proposal, who deserve success, and who will be disappointed if it does not succeed. i wish them the best of luck. we are a democratic organization, we are allowed to disagree, and we vote to determine which way we will go. if they win the vote, i will be happy for them.

as i have said, it makes no difference whatsoever on the field/"function" side. black coats can compete there right now. or purple for that matter, as long as they are registered GSP's. i for one will not judge them any differently than any other dog (if i ever see one in competition), if they lay down a winning race, they deserve to win.

12 volt-

probably not any contemporary black pointer crosses around. any turkey trying to get away with that and not wanting to get caught, would have put the black dogs down. the black coats come from a cross with the Arkwright pointers around the turn of the century.

it may interest you to know that i like the coat color, because that is what i had when i had pointers. like yours, really striking i thought.

[wannabe]

With black being a dominant gene, the breeding of black dogs to black dogs could result in a dog that would produce blacks no matter what they are bred to.

This isn't true. I just helped whelp a litter from Wind River Kennel, the kennel that Adam referenced. The sire is solid liver and the dam is black & white ticked. There were three liver & whites, three black & whites, three solid liver and three solid black.

Yes it is true. Some of the black pups in the litter will only produce black offspring even if they are bred to a liver. I believe it is called homozygous.

[wannabe]

By allowing black GSP's in the show ring, they could have a new color fad to play with.

[Ayres]

Homozygous genes don't really apply here because there are so many color variations - white & black patched, white & liver patched, white & black ticked, white & liver ticked, solid liver, and solid black. This isn't a simple punnet square cross. Like I said, I know the breeder and the dogs that are solid black and have thrown liver and white in offspring coats. Yes, black is a dominant gene. But, in order to get a dog that has absolutely nothing but black dominant genes you'd have to cross solid black to solid black for generations. And even then you'd never know if the dog was completely dominant black. Even if for argument sake we consider a dog with nothing but dominant black genes, if it were bred to a liver dog, you'd still get coat variations.

By allowing black GSP's in the show ring, they could have a new color fad to play with.

It would also allow the really great black GSPs to actually complete an AKC dual championship. Yeah, they can still run in hunt tests and field trials and obediance... but not allowing black prohibits those dogs from earning a DC even when well deserved. Forgive me if I just can't understand why anyone would want to prohibit a dog's success simply because black wasn't introduced into the U.S. at the same time the liver coats were.

[Grey Ghost]

With black being a dominant gene, the breeding of black dogs to black dogs could result in a dog that would produce blacks no matter what they are bred to.

The operative word here is "could".

But, in order to get a dog that has absolutely nothing but black dominant genes you'd have to cross solid black to solid black for generations. And even then you'd never know if the dog was completely dominant black.

It's true that you'd never really know, but in theory it "could" happen in a single generation. I'd think this debate is all besides the point anyway. It's impossible to be a carrier of a dominate gene. So, there's no reason to fear that it might randomly show up in a litter.

[wannabe]

There are only 2 color variations, black and liver. The solid, ticked, patched, and roan are patterns, not colors.

BTW, how long have you been a member of the GSPCA?

[wannabe]

It's impossible to be a carrier of a dominate gene. So, there's no reason to fear that it might randomly show up in a litter.

If you don't want black GSP's, don't breed your brown dog to a black dog, but if you think you are going to get half a litter of black, and half brown, you may be in for a suprise unless you know the color of the dogs in the pedigree.

[Grey Ghost]

wannabe,
That was exactly my point.

John,
I did skim through that thread you posted a link to (I'm not patient enough to read it all). What I can't get past is what you pointed out...the DK marketing. DKs get marketed as the perfect hunting dog. Naturally this is ridiculous (we all know that weimaraners are the perfect dogs for any purpose ).

So, given the marketing, how does being allowed in the show ring help the DKV? It seems to me that their marketing is dependant on not being the same as GSPs. If anything a change in the standard would undermine their ability to charge such high prices. Yes, some breeders in Germany may see a short term spike in sales, but US members of the NADKC can only be hurt. And isn't it the NADKC that's responsible for the marketing that you object to?

Not trying to pick a fight. I just don't get it.

-Bill

[Ayres]

It's impossible to be a carrier of a dominate gene. So, there's no reason to fear that it might randomly show up in a litter.

If you don't want black GSP's, don't breed your brown dog to a black dog, but if you think you are going to get half a litter of black, and half brown, you may be in for a suprise unless you know the color of the dogs in the pedigree.

If you don't want a dog that always throws black, then don't ever breed black to black. And, even if you get a dog that always throws black (because it was bred that way) you can always reintroduce the liver color by breeding to liver. Black is a dominant gene and a liver dog is not a carrier, so if one of the dogs in the breeding is liver than none of the pups will be double black dominant.

By the way, I'm not a member of the GSPCA but that doesn't stop me from having an opinion on the subject.

All the arguments I hear against allowing black into the standard center around one thing: irresponsible breeding behaviors. And you know what? You have to worry about irresponsible breeders regardless of whether black is accepted or not.

[Ayres]

This just caught me again:

you may be in for a suprise unless you know the color of the dogs in the pedigree.

When would you breed to any dog without knowing the color of the dogs one generation back in the pedigree? The responsibility to know what is in the pedigree falls upon the breeder, and for further argument see my thought above about the irresponsible breeder.

[Wagonmaster]

So, given the marketing, how does being allowed in the show ring help the DKV?

there are very few non-DK black coated dogs around. opening a new slot in the standard creates a market for DKV. that is where the black coats will come from to fill the demand. in the show ring, the performance differences you mentioned are irrelevant.

[Ayres]

John, I pulled this quote from you off the shorthairs.net link you gave me, and it directly ties to what you've been saying here:

if, someday, there are enough competitive GSP's out there to justify it, i will vote for black. not today though.

My response to that is that if we continue to stifle the breeding of black shorthairs by disqualifying it and giving the impression that it is a fault, then there will never be a great deal of black GSPs bred in North America, and you will never see "enough" to make you change your mind and believe that it should be included.

Think about what you're proposing. Black should not be allowed simply because of the market for black GSPs may be filled partially by DKV imports, and that's a bad thing because we can't register our dogs there? And THAT'S the reason we should disqualify the black color? That has absolutely nothing to do with the breed standard and everything to do with politics!

[ByeDog]

I have heard that there are higher numbers of bite issues (as in teeth alignment) in black gsps. Looking at the NAVHDA test records there may be a correlation, but not sure. Anyone else heard this?

[Ayres]

The ones I have seen don't have bad bites, and even if a black GSP had a bad bite it comes down to responsible breeding practices. Bad bites are not conformationally correct and a dog with a bad bite would not be good breeding stock regardless of color.

And let's not forget that correlation is more akin to coincidence than to causation.

[Margaret]

It seems there are fears that German bred dogs will be out running in the horsey field trials, which is odd because they can now can't they?
But why worry? The NA horse back trials dogs are so improved and so good they will eat them! No problem.

There has been so very much utter rubbish put on various lists to sway people against allowing a colour that has been FCI for over 70 years.

As has already been pointed out, there are probably black (& white) dogs behind most, if not all, German lines now in Nth America.

But wait - they are snarling viscious creatures that bite people and attack any animal on sight aren't they? Heck they chase rabbits, hares, and have been known to deal to cats, skunks, squirrels, chipmunks, and any other furry critter that NO American bred GSP (or any other gundogs) would ever think of looking at. Right?
I mean gosh, they have even been used to tackle wild pigs. Or is that the chap who field trials now whose American bred dogs do that. Yes, sorry - it is.

Oh, and they track wounded deer. How terrible that someone would use a dog to track down a wounded animal so they can put said animal out of it's suffering and take home some venison.
Do they leap upon said deer and savage it? Ahhh, isn't the idea that they are on leash, or trained to bark or come back and take the owner to the animal. Cripes, next it'll be baying lions and pulling down buffalo.

It is said that the black dogs go back to the original old GSP so they will have the nasty traits that someone has stated thay have seen hundreds of dogs descended from German stock display (or was it thousands?). Well whatever.

We have a saying in NZ "if you can believe that, you can believe anything".

I also find it interesting that the Germans have had for up to 70 years the frozen semen so that the black coloured dogs today are of them old 'uns. What a shame they hoarded the technology for so long.

Please people, just think about it. The black has been part of the breed for 70 years, it is nothing but just a colour.
If people want to make a fad of it, more fool them because the truly dedicated breeders will continue to breed dogs for all the RIGHT reasons.
No judge of any standing is going to put up a colour; if the black colour is the better dog it should win, but if the liver or white & liver is the better dog, then that should be the dog placed.

I really cannot understand, apart from certain issues which relate
to breeders infighting, what you are getting your knickers in a twist about with this. Join the rest of the world and let it go.

Marg

[Kurzhaar]

John:

You won't have to worry about any "vom Erntemond" dogs (Black OR Liver) causing you consternation in AKC events since I do not register my dogs with the AKC. Your assertation that the approval of black will be a marketing windfall of DK breeders does not apply to me or the breeders I consider cooperators.

I and many of the DK breeders in the USA abide by the breeding regulations and ideals set forth by the DKV in Germany. We also abide by the position statement the DKs should only be bred to other certified DKs.

Before I breed a dog in my kennel if must pass at least three tests: Confromation (It has to look like a DK with no disqualifying faults), it must pass a test where it is required to retrieve a duck from swimming depth water, and it must be rated HD free. To put it simply, it takes much more than a male, a female, and $35 to have a DK litter in my kennel.

If all breeders, regardless of breed, would follow a simple requirement scheme like this we would eliminate many of the "His Grand daddy did" litters.


Jim

So, given the marketing, how does being allowed in the show ring help the DKV?

there are very few non-DK black coated dogs around. opening a new slot in the standard creates a market for DKV. that is where the black coats will come from to fill the demand. in the show ring, the performance differences you mentioned are irrelevant.

[seadog]

Marg you must shoot a SxS , cause you just let loose with both barrels :shock: :shock: . Breed/breeding standards, what the @$&* is that ?

[Grey Ghost]

in the show ring, the performance differences you mentioned are irrelevant.

Exactly. My point is that their marketing depends on performance differences (real or not). If breeders in Germany start flooding the US show market with their black dogs, breeders in the NADKC wont be able to argue that their dogs are any different than other GSPs.

[wannabe]

It's impossible to be a carrier of a dominate gene. So, there's no reason to fear that it might randomly show up in a litter.

If you don't want black GSP's, don't breed your brown dog to a black dog, but if you think you are going to get half a litter of black, and half brown, you may be in for a suprise unless you know the color of the dogs in the pedigree.

If you don't want a dog that always throws black, then don't ever breed black to black. And, even if you get a dog that always throws black (because it was bred that way) you can always reintroduce the liver color by breeding to liver. Black is a dominant gene and a liver dog is not a carrier, so if one of the dogs in the breeding is liver than none of the pups will be double black dominant.

If you breed a homozygous black to a liver, every puppy will be black. You would have to breed one of these black pups to a liver to get a liver pup; it takes 2 generations to get the liver back.

All the arguments I hear against allowing black into the standard center around one thing: irresponsible breeding behaviors. And you know what? You have to worry about irresponsible breeders regardless of whether black is accepted or not.

Like those who breed solid black to black and whites, and market their pups for their color? This country is full of irresponsible breeders who are only interested in selling pups. The breed club needs to set limits (NO BLACK) to protect the breed from breeders who are more interested in a dogs color than they are in it's temperment, conformation, and abilities. The VDD will not register a litter of DDs (same color genetics as a DK) if the are out of a black X black breeding, or black X solid liver because the breed is supposed to be liver, but they allow black because it is there.

I am heading over to Missouri this afternoon for a GSP trial this weekend. I will ask around and see what the movers and shakers of the breed think about the issue.

[Wagonmaster]

Think about what you're proposing. Black should not be allowed simply because of the market for black GSPs may be filled partially by DKV imports, and that's a bad thing because we can't register our dogs there? And THAT'S the reason we should disqualify the black color? That has absolutely nothing to do with the breed standard and everything to do with politics!

that is my point Ayres, the change in the standard is politics, it is not "for the good of the breed." it is to make a market slot for DK's. if it were for the "good of the breed" i would vote for it.

in a nutshell, here is their position (quoting one of the DK advocates):

Quote:
Since the AKC has adopted the DK it is only right that they allow Dks to be registered. After all, without the DK, you would not have your FT dogs you hold so dear.



Quote:
I can guarantee, that if you go into any Cabella's or Gander Mountain and poll GSP owners, you will find that most of them are unhappy with the quality of the GSP. They do not even know what a DK is and they believe that the FT GSP is the best out there.When I tell them about my DK they are amazed. I believe that if the average hunter were to know more about DKs they would buy them over a GSP, anyday of the week.

in a nutshell, AKC has no right not to allow DK's to be registered with the AKC. we owe it to them. But if they just know all the "facts" about AKC GSP's customers will buy a DK over a GSP any day of the week. that is a little like demanding that your competitor close all his stores and clear his shelves, so you can come in and show him, on his dime, how product really should be sold.

no thanks

[markj]

I can say this, I have been looking around at dogs, litters, kennels. I can say there are some already breeding for black in AKC litters. Some charge more? for this color.. Will we separate into 3 breeds? I already see the DKV/AKC thing altho every GSP here has its roots firmly planted in Germany.

This is getting devisive, I would rather see something that would bring us all together, we all can live in harmony. I wonder, do the dogs care?

Will 3 tone be allowed next? black/white/brown or liver?

[Wagonmaster]

mark, if you look back at my posts from about July of last year, i would have said the same thing. by now, i have read enough DK comments on US bred dogs and field trialing to understand it is not possible.

so i agree with them. two different breeds. split em up, get em the heck out of the AKC registry.

[Wagonmaster]

You won't have to worry about any "vom Erntemond" dogs (Black OR Liver) causing you consternation in AKC events since I do not register my dogs with the AKC. Your assertation that the approval of black will be a marketing windfall of DK breeders does not apply to me or the breeders I consider cooperators.

that may apply to you, personally, but if you are suggesting that NADKC/DKV breeders do not have any interest in taking advantage of dual registration with the AKC, i suggest you are wrong.

yesterday, in connection with the shorthair thread, i looked at some of the materials of some of the NADKC Exec. Board posters who came in to discuss the pending AKC vote. among other things, i ran across http://www.vomroyalshorthairs.com/photo.html, which has pictures of a fella showing his DK in the AKC ring, and also pictures of you and lots of NADKC pictures of course. and there are a number of others who cross-register DK's. honeyrun put up a nice post this a.m. on the AKC show and field work she has done with the DK she acquired 4 years ago. i believe she is one of your regional directors isn't she? certainly nothing wrong with her supporting your organization. my point is simply that is the route by which the "black" slot will be filled - with DK's.

i am not interested, i gather you are not interested. after watching months of this stuff i say just split the breeds.

[honeyrun]

John,

I AM NOT A REGIONAL DIRECTOR FOR THE NADKC. I have my own issues with them. I am an AKC GSP person (have been for 17 years and don't see any kind of change in the future) who happens to own 2 DK's that are both registered with the AKC. Please do not confuse me with being a DK breeder.

I participate in AKC and NAVHDA stuff due to the fact that I would have to travel 10+ hours to test with them. Whereas, I can run in AKC stuff every weekend of the year and never have to drive more than 4 hours from home.

[Ayres]

John,

All of your posts do not even consider the betterment of the breed. They smack of selfish desire to disinclude black solely because it may make the black dogs more popular. You relate that this is a bad thing because black can come not only from U.S. breeders who have been breeding it for a long time, but also from German import DKs.

I'll tell you what, German import DKs are already registerable in the AKC and can show in conformation if they are liver colored. So your argument that disincluding black would stop that sort of thing from happening wouldn't have that effect at all. If a bunch of German DK breeders wanted to jump in on the American AKC "market" they would have just been breeding for liver dogs for the past 60 years. Instead they have been breeding for the betterment of the breed, which included the black lines. It was breeding for the betterment of the breed that introduced the black lines into the GSP over a century ago.

To say that there is some great split between the DKs and the GSP is really ludicrous. A DK is a German registered dog and a GSP is an AKC registered dog. They are the same breed. Any "differences" come from the programs that the breeders specifically breed for, and these "differences" can be found among just the GSPs as well as among just the DKs. They are not a differences that separate the breed based on the way the dogs are registered.

A betterment of the breed mentality would allow black in the standard, opening up the gene pool to the amazingly nice black dogs that are bred in Germany and the United States, and would not play favorites based on who would make money selling pups.

[Ayres]

If you don't want a dog that always throws black, then don't ever breed black to black. And, even if you get a dog that always throws black (because it was bred that way) you can always reintroduce the liver color by breeding to liver. Black is a dominant gene and a liver dog is not a carrier, so if one of the dogs in the breeding is liver than none of the pups will be double black dominant.

If you breed a homozygous black to a liver, every puppy will be black. You would have to breed one of these black pups to a liver to get a liver pup; it takes 2 generations to get the liver back.

That's exactly what I said. Don't breed black to black and you have absolutely no opportunity to get a homozygous black dog. Even if you get a homozygous black dog, you can reintroduce liver back into the line by breeding to liver strictly.

All the arguments I hear against allowing black into the standard center around one thing: irresponsible breeding behaviors. And you know what? You have to worry about irresponsible breeders regardless of whether black is accepted or not.

Like those who breed solid black to black and whites, and market their pups for their color?

Yes. Breeding and marketing solely for color is bad because it doesn't consider function and other factors of form. But.. isn't this done right now by breeders solely breeding for liver and marketing their dogs based on this color as the only one allowed in the AKC conformation show ring? It's a double-edged sword.

This country is full of irresponsible breeders who are only interested in selling pups.

I agree.

The breed club needs to set limits (NO BLACK) to protect the breed from breeders who are more interested in a dogs color than they are in it's temperment, conformation, and abilities.

Here I disagree. There are plenty of black shorthairs in this country that are currently being bred for performance, temperment and structural conformation. Setting a limit of no black only penalizes the breeders who are currently breeding responsibly. An argument stating that no black should be allowed because irresponsible breeders may breed for that color overlooks some very important points. First, irresponsible breeders are already in existance and can breed irresponsibly for liver colored dogs. Second, breeders and puppy buyers have the duty to educate themselves on breeding programs -- it is not (currently) the breed club's duty to police every breeder. And third, just because black would be allowed does not mean that every puppy buyer will be falling overthemselves to buy a black dog. There are plenty of people who prefer the liver color.

The VDD will not register a litter of DDs (same color genetics as a DK) if the are out of a black X black breeding, or black X solid liver because the breed is supposed to be liver, but they allow black because it is there.

First, you're switching breeds when making this argument from a GSP to a GWP, so the statement that "the breed is supposed to be liver, but they allow black because it is there" has no merit. In the DK and GSP, black was introduced and allowed over a century ago as a betterment to the breed. Second, a black x solid liver breeding will yield both black and liver so long as the black dog wasn't homozygous (black x black 1 gen. back). And third, if you're really concerned about the impact of homozygous black dogs, maybe you should make the suggestion that the GSPCA adopt the rule of no black to black breedings as well.

I am heading over to Missouri this afternoon for a GSP trial this weekend. I will ask around and see what the movers and shakers of the breed think about the issue.

Have a good time, and please do report back.

[Wagonmaster]

All of your posts do not even consider the betterment of the breed. They smack of selfish desire to disinclude black solely because it may make the black dogs more popular. You relate that this is a bad thing because black can come not only from U.S. breeders who have been breeding it for a long time, but also from German import DKs.

i disagree completely. betterment of the breed does not include reducing it back to the dog it came from 30 or 40 years ago, which is what the consistent inbreeding of DK stock will do. and there are not "US breeders who have been breeding" black for a long time. the very small number I am aware of, having been breeding black for no more than a couple of generations from the DK source.

as for "selfish desire to disinclude black" i have said it before and will say it again, i like black, i like it alot. if i could have a black and white field trial dog i would love it. but black will come from DK's, which do not belong in the mix of the modern GSP.

i agree, liver DK's are already in the pool. i can't stop that. i can vote against allowing it to continue.

here, DK says they are two different breeds, why should we mix them:

from Red Earth:

THey are two different breeds, In my opinion..... As an owner and absolute lover of both breeds.

from Kurzhaar (NADKC Exec. Bd.):

One of the tenents of breed differentiation is Purpose. I contend that the purpose of the DK is different when critically and objectively evaluated than the TYPICAL GSP.

vom royals shorthairs:

I have owned both and would argue to the death that there is a huge difference between the AVERAGE GSP and the DK's. Yes some of the American GSP's still are bred with versatile traits. I have switched to the DK and will stick with them . I like what the DKV stands for and will test and prove my dogs in the German system to continue in the values they stand for. Even in appearance of most GSP's and Dk's side by side you would be able to see it. Mental stability I have found is higher among the DK also. Not as nervous and hyper as the GSP's I have

i am agreeing with them. two different breeds. two different registries.

i voted already. ayers, best of luck to you. GSPCA is a democracy, and we can agree to disagree

[Kurzhaar]

John:

Any comments I may make in this or other forums are mine and have nothing to do with the NADKC Executive Board. I request that you refrain from implying that my statements are from the NADKC Executive Board.

Jim Smith

[Wagonmaster]

my statement was not meant to imply that the post i quoted was an official position of the NADKC. it was meant to say that you are on the board. sorry, just hasty abbreviation of the post.

[TNovoa]

B/Ws are accepted in the AKC registry, allowed to participate in field, performance and all other events EXCEPT the show ring. I'm seeing A LOT of misconceptions, prejudices and uninformed conclusions drawn in the assumpition of allowing the black "ban" to be lifted. We are the only country that lists black as a disqualification.

Is black as popular in other countries, as well as this one, as is being made out to be? NO. Therefore, I don't think you'll see a flood of German imports just because they may hit the show circuit. That just doesn't make sense.

Hypothetically speaking, if there's a 'FC/AFC Black GSP MH, etc, etc', who makes a great breeding prospect, then why not also include it in the conformation testing system to ensure it's quality as being correct to the standard?

I could breed my L/W female to a B/W and have a mixed litter. Now, I would have to separate my livers from blacks and choose only my best liver to keep, for all my endeavors, so I could show it. What if all the livers were inferior to the blacks? What a shame to push them aside because I can't show it! Makes no sense because the parentage is the same.

Lastly, if you take the total number of GSP show dogs and compare it to the total number of GSPs living in the US, you'll find that percentage is very very small. Most folks looking for a shorthair don't really give a rats a$$ about dog shows or standards.

I've never seen a black or b/w in person, or plan to own or breed to one, but, I am voting YES to have them included in one venue in which I am very involved. I hope one day to see one show up in competition too!

[Ayres]

Those comments you posted all state that the DK is differed, in the opinion of those owners, because the DK remains more versatile. So you think that for the betterment of the breed the versatility needs to be bred out of the GSP?

And the whole "reducing it back to the dog it came from" is a fallacy unless someone has kept frozen semen for the past 40 years. Black lines have been bred in the States and just because you haven't seen one personally doesn't mean it hasn't been happening.

And, as I've stated before and you ignored, the reason the black lines have German influence a few generations back is because of the time when the black dogs were first able to be imported. Besides, what proof do you have that the German lines are so polluted that they don't represent the GSP?

And your vote to disinclude black is not a vote against allowing DK influence on the "American GSP" because, as I stated, the liver dogs are welcome. This is a color issue and your only real argument against it stems back to who will be making the most money selling pups. And that argument ignores the betterment of the breed.

Yes, the GSPCA is voting this issue as a democracy, and I will continue to lobby for the much overdue change.

[DK Dogs]

WagonMaster:

Thank you for taking the time to look on my site. The dog in my pictures was an AKC shorthair that I used to own before I switched to the DK 100%. Yes I do have many pictures of people to breed to non DK's. I can still be friends with those people, I may not agree with it, but I dont alllow it to effect my friendship.
I have read many of the post here and on some of the other forums to which you posted against the DK. Can you please just give me a short to the point reason why you are so anti DK? Facts please.....
Thanks

[mountaindogs]

Okay, just subscribed to the online GSP list and have had more of this discussion than I can stand. I read a few posts here and skimmed becuase the discussion has been so in depth on the list. Personally I am for the Black, but I am not qualified to vote, so my opinion is only that.

Here is a link that was posted there- that you'll find interesting. If it has been posted here already I'm sorry.
http://www.dogstuff.info/mating_outcomes_gsp_byrne.html

[Dave Quindt]

DK Dogs wrote:

Thank you for taking the time to look on my site. The dog in my pictures was an AKC shorthair that I used to own before I switched to the DK 100%.

100% DK huh? It's good to see that the DK male you chose to breed to includes in his pedigree the great DK dogs like PJ Wildfire and Checkmate's Dandy Dude.

You guys crack me up!

[Wagonmaster]

with all respect DK, if you have not seen the "facts" you have not been reading my posts. but if you want to know perhaps some of where my concerns about the DK attitude arose, you might review this thread: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... sc&start=0

and when you do, you might just consider how it would read to someone who owns those mentally unstable, can't retrieve or swim, specialty field trial race horses that the average buyer would pass up any day for a good DK.

of course there have been a few other little pleasantries since then, but - and please forgive me for this - i have a hard time with the concept that DK sees itself as friends or even distant relatives of those of us who own GSP's.

you all should understand that you have attracted attention. i don't know if it is the attention you wanted, but the GSP community knows you are there. not just me.

[Wagonmaster]

And the whole "reducing it back to the dog it came from" is a fallacy unless someone has kept frozen semen for the past 40 years.

the Germans as I understand it, have semen going back 75 years. not that it means anything to the discussion.

what proof do you have that the German lines are so polluted that they don't represent the GSP?

perhaps you also should go back and read http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... sc&start=0

DK unanimously agrees, they are two different breeds. So what are they doing in the AKC breed book? a mistake we should rectify to the extent possible, but certainly not compound.

Yes, the GSPCA is voting this issue as a democracy, and I will continue to lobby for the much overdue change.

you are more than welcome to do that, not that you need my approval.

[Dave Quindt]

John,

No worry man! This problem is going to solve itself.

There is a proposal in the DKV that would forbid DKs from being bred in unapproved breedings (i.e. to AKC dogs). This would mirror the current DD regulations.

If this goes through, the problem will solve itself.

The logical next step would be for the AKC to forbid ANY DK from being AKC registered, or at least in participating in AKC field trials and conformation shows. What's the point in allowing them to compete? There is absolutely no value in allowing a dog to compete that can't be part of the gene pool! I guess we could issue them ILP numbers and allow them to run hunt tests :roll:

Same goes with NAVHDA. NAVHDA is supposed to be about testing dogs to help breeders evaluate breeding. What's the point of testing DDs and DKs if they can't be part of the NAVHDA breeding pool?

Now, to be fair there are NADKC members who are fighting this proposal - some would hate to see their money stream come to a halt. "Breed your worthless AKC dog to my clearly superior KS-titled DK" has resulted in a lot of stud fees over the last decade.

And this whole idea that they are not specifically keeping out AKC dogs because the FCI doesn't recognize the AKC is a bunch of hooey! The DKV has allowed AKC dogs in previously; these dogs are behind the largest and most successful line of DKs in the US. These dogs were never tested in the DKV system, but their offspring were treated as pure DKs.

Now, the NADKC folks will tell you "this can never happen again" but that's hooey as well. All it takes is a rule change (which is how the dogs were allowed in the first place). If you know the right people and spend enough time in the motherland maybe your own GSPs can be approved for DK breeding?

The NADKC could devise a way to allow AKC GSPs to run in their test and be judged; scores could be given but not registered. It would be a easy way for the struggling club to get an influx of members, especially those with experience in testing and trialing formats.

In the current environment, the only way you can "play in their sandbox" is to buy a brand new dog - pretty big step.

There are ways to set testing requirements above the current DKV breeding requirements and allow DK x GSP pups into the DKV (and the FCI.) This has been offered as a possible solution to DK-interested folks in other countries.

It would be a very smart move for the NADKC IF they believe that the GSPs would fall flat on their faces when tested along side the superior DKs. The problem would be if the GSPs didn't fall on their faces - obviously the risk isn't worth it.

FWIW,
Dave

[Margaret]

Who would have thought that allowing a colour accepted throughout the rest of the world would result in such bitterness, such foot stamping, fist thumping and despising of the history of ones own breed.


quite amazing really :roll:

marg

[Wagonmaster]

AM NOT A REGIONAL DIRECTOR FOR THE NADKC. I have my own issues with them. I am an AKC GSP person (have been for 17 years and don't see any kind of change in the future) who happens to own 2 DK's that are both registered with the AKC. Please do not confuse me with being a DK breeder.

sorry maam, did not have time to look it up. careless of me. between this thread and the shorthair thread, they are keeping me busy.

[Ayres]

John, your link to a discussion about some people's opinions is far from fact to prove that the German DK lines are polluted beyond all recognition of a GSP. Actually, that thread (at least the first page -- I didn't read the rest because it's a discussion read a long time ago and long forgotten) discusses how the DK has actually been held to stricter standards than the GSP. The testing required of the DK dogs is in place to prove their versatility, and it is something that the GSP is supposed to reflect.

If you still advocate that breeding the versatility out of the GSP is for the betterment of the breed, I'm sorry but I don't agree with that one bit. From what I can see, all this going off on tangents about breed separation and the conspiracy theory about the DK lines cornering the "market" for black shorthairs is all just a political ploy to keep the real issue watered down and out of focus.

The facts are:
1. The black color was bred into the DK for the betterment of the breed a century ago.
2. The first DKs were imported to the U.S. in the mid 20s and early 30s. They were all liver and liver/white. For "some unknown reason" the black DKs were not imported and black was written as a disqualification in the AKC GSP breed standard, along with tri-color. The most reasonable guess as to why black and tri-colored dogs were disqualified is that people did not want any pointer crossing to happen.
3. During the ending of WWII the Germans were being overrun by the Allied Forces and hid all they had, including their DKs. The best of the dogs were hidden in Yugoslavia, which fell behind the Iron Curtain. Germans lost access to their best dogs for a long time and it took awhile to build back up the DK.
4. Following a long rebuilding black dogs were finally able to be imported into the United States. There are breeders in the United States who have AKC registered black dogs and have been breeding them for generations.
5. DNA testing is now available to distinguish with certainty the sire and dam of a litter, which puts to rest the fear of breed outcrossing.

I really hope some can see past the politics and keep the betterment of the breed as the focus of the proposed standard change. All of this crying about "we can't register with their club so they shouldn't get to bring their black dogs over here" is just a bogus, cop-out line. The DK breeders are already bringing their liver dogs "over here." All that disqualifying black in the AKC standard does is to penalize for no good reason all current U.S. breeders who have black in their lines.

[Margaret]

Very well said Steven.

Now just a little OT - do Vizsla have certain growth spurts they go through typical of the breed? My male pup is just 7 months and at least 23" and I don't know anything about their growth rate as I've never owned one before.

Marg

[Ayres]

I'll PM you a response to keep this thread on topic.