Watering down a Title

[dan v]

So you'd be willing to keep a Brittany from competing at their National Championship why?

If I go to a GSP trial with my Brittany DC, I don't run in the open. I run in the amateur, where we still need points because I can't qualify for to run at the nationals winning a GSP trial.

I don't care who enters what....we run against Matt Basilone's string of GSP's all the time up in CT...I say bring it on, but I'm just wondering WHY you'd avoid entering an FC in an OGD stake at one of your breed trials, clearing the way for someone else to earn points, yet you wouldn't hesitate to enter your FC at a Brittany trial, in an attempt to keep a Brittany from qualifying to compete at their national level. Apples and oranges? Really?? Or do you all just not give a darn because its not your breed and its not your nationals?

It's all well and dandy for my green broke dog to have to win against your breeds FC's, because ya'll need to requalify your FC's for your NFT. But if I enter my FC dog in a Brit OGD, and win, I'm denying a Brit from going to your NFT? You don't see the contradiction?

If that what you believe, then just close the Brit FT to Brits....done.

[Karen]

All I can say is that if you want the courtesy from the other breeds to not run their FC's in your non-limited stakes, you should extend the same courtesy to them.

[kninebirddog]

So you'd be willing to keep a Brittany from competing at their National Championship why?

If I go to a GSP trial with my Brittany DC, I don't run in the open. I run in the amateur, where we still need points because I can't qualify for to run at the nationals winning a GSP trial.

I don't care who enters what....we run against Matt Basilone's string of GSP's all the time up in CT...I say bring it on, but I'm just wondering WHY you'd avoid entering an FC in an OGD stake at one of your breed trials, clearing the way for someone else to earn points, yet you wouldn't hesitate to enter your FC at a Brittany trial, in an attempt to keep a Brittany from qualifying to compete at their national level. Apples and oranges? Really?? Or do you all just not give a darn because its not your breed and its not your nationals?

It's all well and dandy for my green broke dog to have to win against your breeds FC's, because ya'll need to requalify your FC's for your NFT. But if I enter my FC dog in a Brit OGD, and win, I'm denying a Brit from going to your NFT? You don't see the contradiction?

If that what you believe, then just close the Brit FT to Brits....done.

Here is my thoughts on that...Then the dog should have done a better job. Why should a dog that didn't step up to the plate and put up a winning performance get the winning points..May the best dog win

[dan v]

K9,

I'm all for the dog having to "step up". I wouldn't run a finished dog in a OGD......but if people want to make it a habit of using the OGD at a Brit FT to requal their finished dogs, then the gentleman's agreement is off the table. Years back one of DC's had to beat a nationally competitive dog, of the same breed, on the same pros string, more than once to finish. That's fine, the wins were sweeter. But the reason they were running the dog in OGD was for year end ranking.

I think the V's only use wins from OLGD unless no OLGD is offered for year end rankings.

[GrayDawg]

It tells me that I shouldn't really care if I enter a FC, or a multiple NFC, in a Brit OGD stake. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Wyndancer, that's a very good point which escaped me up to this point. I guess I'd be willing to run a finished dog in a non-limited broke dog stake at a Brit trial, because such a stake should be littered with FC's/AFC's trying to qualify for their Nat'l Championship. So what's fair is fair. But still not at GSP trials though.............

Rob

So you'd be willing to keep a Brittany from competing at their National Championship why?

I'm just wondering WHY you'd avoid entering an FC in an OGD stake at one of your breed trials, clearing the way for someone else to earn points, yet you wouldn't hesitate to enter your FC at a Brittany trial, in an attempt to keep a Brittany from qualifying to compete at their national level.

Karen,
First things first- my dog isn't a FC yet, so let's not put the cart before the horse. I'll run her in any broke dog stake that'll take her until such time that she is lucky/good enough to attain her FC. That said, respective to Brit non-limited OGD stakes........ it's all about the level of competition as far as I'm concerned. Aren't some of the other dogs entered (FC's or not) attempting to keep a Brittany from competing at their National Championship? Shouldn't a Brit be good enough to beat some local, weekend FC GSP if they expect to qualify for their NATIONAL Championship? The Brit clubs I've supported to date with entry fees for my dog haven't turned me away yet. My $$ has been good enough for then in juvenile stakes. If other FCs are entering an OGD stake, then that is the competition I'm seeking....... especially if their ISN'T a Limited stake that weekend & especially if the trial falls on a weekend that doesn't conflict with family commitments.

But seriously, let's come back to reality for a minute here........ actually for a while. My dog is 6 points away from her FC- as far as I'm concerned, it could be 60 points. She has a ways to go before you need to start worrying about me showing up at a Brit trial OGD stake with the letters "FC" before her name!

For that matter, what if I ran her at a Brit trial OGD stake and she wasn't a FC? She'd still be trying to prevent a Brit from qualifying for their NAT'L Championship. But would it now be okay, seeing that she wasn't a FC? Either way, if I'm cutting her loose, we're looking to win. If that happens, a Brit isn't qualifying for their Nationals out of that stake?

If the club doesn't want to take my money, I'm fine with that. But once they accept my check, I expect a fair look,

It's all good.

Rob

[phermes1]

K9,

I think the V's only use wins from OLGD unless no OLGD is offered for year end rankings.

OLGD for open rankings, ALGD for amateur rankings. OGD or AGD are never counted, even if OLGD/ALGD isn't offered.

It used to be as you describe, but that changed a few years ago.

[kninebirddog]

Maybe it is just me but to me if the better dogs need to bow out of a trial so that a sub standard dog can have the potential to get the "points" I would SERIOUSLY hope the judges with hold first place instead of awarding a placement which they can do in AKC and AF

NSTRA granted the dog that accrues the most points for over all work will win for the day but that dog has to go beat most times the other 31 dogs since full trials only have 32 dogs in a trial.

No matter what the trial is but when I look to a dog to potentially add to my program I want a real winner not one that has a title which having to win this way means nothing at all at least to me. I want a Real Winner.

So if one puts their titled dog in and gets scrutinized for doing so That is Sad. As I already said You might as well let an owner pick a title to add to their dog just for registering the dog if that's the case.

[Karen]

So you'd be willing to keep a Brittany from competing at their National Championship why?

If I go to a GSP trial with my Brittany DC, I don't run in the open. I run in the amateur, where we still need points because I can't qualify for to run at the nationals winning a GSP trial.

I don't care who enters what....we run against Matt Basilone's string of GSP's all the time up in CT...I say bring it on, but I'm just wondering WHY you'd avoid entering an FC in an OGD stake at one of your breed trials, clearing the way for someone else to earn points, yet you wouldn't hesitate to enter your FC at a Brittany trial, in an attempt to keep a Brittany from qualifying to compete at their national level. Apples and oranges? Really?? Or do you all just not give a darn because its not your breed and its not your nationals?

It's all well and dandy for my green broke dog to have to win against your breeds FC's, because ya'll need to requalify your FC's for your NFT. But if I enter my FC dog in a Brit OGD, and win, I'm denying a Brit from going to your NFT? You don't see the contradiction?

If that what you believe, then just close the Brit FT to Brits....done.

Wyndancer,

I'm not denying your greenbroke dog of anything.....I'm not entering my Brittany FC in your OGD stake. I can't qualify at an off breed trial, so I won't waste my money on the entry fee.

Rob, the real question is what do you accomplish by winning a Brittany OGD stake with a GSP FC? Like I said, I don't care who I run against. I'd prefer them to be broke, honor and not tag or jump on my dog...but we don't always get what we want. I just don't get what you accomplish? Do you get points toward your breed ranking? I know we don't (we get points for dogs beat at Brittany trials), so off breed placements don't help with breed rankings.

I get it when you're chasing points for an FC or AFC, but I don't get the point of it afterwards?

And Arlette, who said anything about a substandard performance? That hasn't been part of this conversation. This past weekend the judges said they had a CLEAR winner in our AGD stake. 25 starters. The winner (a young Brittany run by Ralph Kiracofe) just tore up the course and is gorgeous on his birds....the other 3 placements could have been interchangeable, and they had 5 other dogs they could have used. There were lots of REALLY nice dogs out there that got around clean.

[Crestonegsp]

The club to put that in the prem is wrong but it is also wrong to keep running your FC in stakes other than Limited. What good does it do for you to win a stake and take points from a second place dog that could of used them. Do you want a pro to show up and throw every FC they have on their string in a OGD stake? I don't. If you want to beat the best dogs go run in AF and than it won't matter if you run a FC or not. What do you have to prove other than build your ego and take points away from other dogs to continue running a FC/AFC in other than limited stakes. It has nothing to do with beating the best before you can finish your dog, it is called common courtesy.


If Britts need to have a win to be able to run at their national and prove themselves they should open their trials and have to beat all comers.

[Dave Quindt]

The club to put that in the prem is wrong but it is also wrong to keep running your FC in stakes other than Limited. What good does it do for you to win a stake and take points from a second place dog that could of used them.......

If you want to beat the best dogs go run in AF and than it won't matter if you run a FC or not.

The same could be said for running finished dogs in Limited stakes; what are you proving and "What good does it do for you to win a stake and take points from a second place dog that could of used them"?

Either the AKC needs to pass the rule that finished dogs can't compete in non-limited stakes or we all need to find something else to talk about.

I wonder what all of you do when the trial sec. calls asking for you to put your finished dogs in the open or amateur because they need the entries? Has happened to me more than once.

[kninebirddog]

Karen I Am referring to IF people refrain from running their dogs because it is already titled so other dogs can have a chance to win then who cares if it is a 6 dog trial or a 30 dogs trial it is still a trial of dogs that have had the competition for the most part taken out.
The limited trials are there so that it is only the Breed who hosts the trial can have the points. A win is a win either beat the best of your breed or beat the best dog down.

And again If the judges are faced with a trial of untitled dogs in AKC type trials I would hope they with hold the placements for points if there wasn't a dog that had that winning dog brace..So if you had a dog win and the judges put it up then great the dog won according to the judges But if there was no titled dogs running then how great was that dogs win could it have placed running against the NAGDC or any of the other Titled dogs.

As You already stated how your dog won your dog had to run against some National caliber dogs and as You already stated how gratifying your dogs win was because of it.

Again May the Best dog win.all that counts to qualify is who Hosts the trial key words HELD BY and who wins/places at that trial not who you run against. So asking a dog not to put in a stake is asking them to step out of a chance to qualify for the National Trial so a dog doesn't have the competition and stands a better chance of winning which Waters down ..Lowers>> the standards as far as I see it.

http://clubs.akc.org/brit/Nationals/ABC ... ations.pdf

3. which during the period from the previous years close of entries to the current year closing of entries has two placements in
an Open or Open Limited All Age Stake in a 13 to 19 dog stake in an AKC licensed trial held by a Brittany Club, one of
which must be a 1st place, or
4. which during the period from the previous years close of entries to the current year closing of entries has two placements, one
of which is a 2nd in an Open All Age or Open Limited All Age Stake in a 20 to 24 dog stake in an AKC Licensed trial held by
a Brittany Club and has an additional Open or Open Limited All Age placement in which 13 or more dogs started in an AKC
Licensed trial held by a Brittany Club, or
5. has placed in an Open All Age or Open Limited All Age Stake of 30 minutes in an AKC Licensed trial held by a Brittany
Club in which the following (or more) dogs started: 1st place with 20 starters, 2nd place with 25 starters, 3rd place with 30
starters, or 4th place with 35 starters, or
6. has placed in an Open All Age or Open Limited All Age Stake of one hour or more in an AKC Licensed trial held by a
Brittany Club in which the following dogs started: 1st place with 13 starters, 2nd place with 15 starters, 3rd place with 17
starters, or 4th place with 20 starters.

http://clubs.akc.org/brit/Nationals/ABC ... ations.pdf

3. which during the period from the previous years close of entries to the current year’s closing of entries has
placed first in an Open Gun Dog or Open Limited Gun Dog Stake in which at least 13 dogs started in an
AKC Licensed trial held by a Brittany Club, or
4. has placed first or second in an Open or Limited Gun Dog Stake in which 20 or more dogs started in an AKC
Licensed trial held by a Brittany Club, or
5. has placed in an Open Gun Dog or Open Limited Gun Dog Stake of one hour or more in an AKC Licensed
trial held by a Brittany Club in which the following dogs started: lst place with 13 starters, 2nd place with 15
starters, 3rd place with 17 starters, or 4th place with 20 starters

[dan v]

I'm not denying your greenbroke dog of anything.....I'm not entering my Brittany FC in your OGD stake. I can't qualify at an off breed trial, so I won't waste my money on the entry fee.

Let me restate it.

If I have a dog, green broke, and I enter it in a local Brit trial, and there are finished dogs looking to use that stake to requalify for the Brit Nationals, that's fine. It's just that I'll feel no remorse to enter a finished Gordon Setter in the same stake.

What I see is the the ABC has created themselves an issue, and that issue arises when a Brit club offers a FT open to all pointing breeds. They can close it to Brits for all I care. Just don't call and ask me to judge, and not give me a stake to run a dog.

The local Brit club tried to go Brit only, found out two things. They couldn't count on enough Brits to make it work financially, and they had trouble getting judges.

And to address Dave... Heck yeah they call and need a dog to make the major once and a while, and quite often it's finished dog used to help make, or hold, the major.

on edit:

I just thought of an example. Let's say the local Brit club calls and wants me to judge the OLGD. I tell Mr. Chair, "But I'd like to run a dog in that." Mr. Chair knows that getting a judge for a Friday is tough....and I may "owe" him for judging previously. And let's say the AGD is walking. Now I don't feed three beasts to go to a FT and walk. That leaves me the OGD. And now I find out from you that Brit folks use the OGD to requal their FC's....you think that's gonna bother me? Well the truth is, it would. So I'd probably throw the rope on before time...I just wanted a lap with my dog.

[snips]

I very well imagine this started because the Pros had large strings of client dogs they are trying to finish...So as common curtesy they stopped running the finished dog in OGD, bumped them to OL Stakes so they could title another dog on their string. Then it bacame the Bible. I can understand it, as in NSTRA you are awarded points for 3 placements, not as big a deal to get beat by a CH.....That said, NSTRA felt that it was deterring newcomers from running dogs, or always getting beat by a 10x CH, so they developed the Am, for Am dogs. (not handlers). I agree that if it is an unsaid rule, it should be a written rule or people should run where they want.

[kninebirddog]

Thing is those Pros are what make a trial ..If it weren't for them many trials wouldn't happen..

Either play with the big dogs or get on the porch with the puppies

[Chukar12]

ALRIGHT...I HAVE HEARD ENOUGH

We Brittany people aren't going to be chastised or intimidated for a crime no greater than having the finest dogs and the best system. Please note a few hi-lights and shellackings I have been blessed to be a part of in a short period of time... First for you Wydancer, I am sure you will note the breed of the first place and second place dogs...

Open Puppy
1 - Spanish Corral's Sundance Kid (Brit)
2 - Par's Queen Of The Green (Set-Gord)
3 - Cobblestone Peaceful Easy Feeling (Set-Eng)
4 - Crimson Hide-Csardas Pride (Vizsla M)

Secondly, what about you GSP hacks? ...and again a black and tan on down the list

Open Derby
Lou Tonelli and Terry Zygalinski
12 Starters (1 Brit, 5 Pntr-GS, 2 Set-Gord, 3 Vizs, 1 Weim)
1 - Spanish Corral's Sundance Kid (Brit)
2 - Palin's Gossip Girl (GSP)
3 - Double C's Double Trouble (GSP)
4 - Par's Queen Of The Green (Set-Gord)

...and for good measure an OGD at a Britt club trial, take a look...??? Oh wait My dog and breed was third...

Open Gun Dog
Greg Knight and Casten Pigman
51 Starters
1 - Booker's All Or Nothing Allie (GSP)
2 - Voltas Howlin Ridge Zin (GSP)
3 - Midas Blazin' Amber Skies (Brit)
4 - Buckaroo's Candy Dee-Lite (Brit)

Clearly, I am tongue in cheek for this post, but the last placements are a good example. My dog is third and needs a brittany win to finish as a DC, I believe there were 40 (+/-) Britts in this stake (it was run this last January) and the rest GSP's, Vsizlas and Weims. The top dog was a FC and the second place dog is now, I watched them and in that stake they were better than my dog. They were run by a pro in the trial. Now, and I have said this before, I am under two years in this game, but the thought never occured to me that I got beat by a different breed and or a FC, I got beat that day by better dogs. The point is made very well above, usually we need other breeds or pros to make for a quality trial and things to work financially. We were running 4 trials in 9 days on the same grounds and limited stakes would have been tough to squeeze in with the judging resources available.

Don't we think it is better to leave what other people do and do not do within reasonable moral boundries and the rules up to the individual?

[brad27]

Don't we think it is better to leave what other people do and do not do within reasonable moral boundries and the rules up to the individual?

great summary of the two threads.

[dan v]

First for you Wydancer, I am sure you will note the breed of the first place and second place dogs...

I assume you're gonna be southwest of Boise around the 26th? We can settle this once and for all, over a jug of brown likker?

[Chukar12]

Well...I will have a dog there. I am sure going to try, I have puppies do 5/1 and I live 10-12 hour drive...going to play i by ear, but it is my intention to look you up.

Best regards,

Joe

[jetjockey]

Im probably going to get in trouble for this... But what a bunch of whiners! Its sad when clubs won't let certain dogs into trials because they want to finish FC's, get qualified for nationals, or get their DC title's against lesser quality dogs. If a dog can't win against the best, then tuff, they don't deserve to qualify for nationals or obtain a FC title. In the Brit world, there aren't very many Limited trials, so all the GD's typically run in all the OGD trials, limited or not. For a club to ask people not to enter their FC's in an OGD trial is truely sad. I think I can count on 1 hand how many Limited trials my dog has run in. Im lucky enough to have a brit who finished her FC before she was 2 1/2 on a pro's string. But the trial she finsihed her FC at, the pro's best GD didn't run. It was bitter sweet for me. I was glad she finished her FC, but wanted her to do it against the best possible competition she could. Thankfully, she won again a few months later in a 5 point major against several pro's dogs, and the other dog on the string that didn't run before. She has also beat some of the highest pointed GD's on the circuit in several other trials. Im proud of her FC because she has proved she deserved the FC title. If I ever decided to try and pin a show championship on her, Id want her to compete with the best show dogs and prove she could win, otherwise, whats the point? I don't want a DC if she doesn't prove she really deserves to be a DC.

Im new to trialing and already I can't stand the politics. A FC, DC, and CH are all titles that should be very hard to obtain, and the dog should prove they can do it against the best in order to obtain one of those titles. If they can't, then they shouldn't get the title. Watering down trials does nothing to help the breed!

[kninebirddog]

Im probably going to get in trouble for this... But what a bunch of whiners! Its sad when clubs won't let certain dogs into trials because they want to finish FC's, get qualified for nationals, or get their DC title's against lesser quality dogs. If a dog can't win against the best, then tuff, they don't deserve to qualify for nationals or obtain a FC title. In the Brit world, there aren't very many Limited trials, so all the GD's typically run in all the OGD trials, limited or not. For a club to ask people not to enter their FC's in an OGD trial is truely sad. I think I can count on 1 hand how many Limited trials my dog has run in. Im lucky enough to have a brit who finished her FC before she was 2 1/2 on a pro's string. But the trial she finsihed her FC at, the pro's best GD didn't run. It was bitter sweet for me. I was glad she finished her FC, but wanted her to do it against the best possible competition she could. Thankfully, she won again a few months later in a 5 point major against several pro's dogs, and the other dog on the string that didn't run before. She has also beat some of the highest pointed GD's on the circuit in several other trials. Im proud of her FC because she has proved she deserved the FC title. If I ever decided to try and pin a show championship on her, Id want her to compete with the best show dogs and prove she could win, otherwise, whats the point? I don't want a DC if she doesn't prove she really deserves to be a DC.

Im new to trialing and already I can't stand the politics. A FC, DC, and CH are all titles that should be very hard to obtain, and the dog should prove they can do it against the best in order to obtain one of those titles. If they can't, then they shouldn't get the title. Watering down trials does nothing to help the breed!

[snips]

Thing is those Pros are what make a trial ..If it weren't for them many trials wouldn't happen..

Either play with the big dogs or get on the porch with the puppies

Come on!

[GrayDawg]

Rob, the real question is what do you accomplish by winning a Brittany OGD stake with a GSP FC?......... I just don't get what you accomplish? Do you get points toward your breed ranking?

I get it when you're chasing points for an FC or AFC, but I don't get the point of it afterwards?

Yes, they earn "dogs defeated" points towards GSPCA Top Ten rankings. Don't get me wrong, I will much prefer to run in limited stakes once a FC or AFC is attained- as I'd be looking to raise the bar in terms of the level of competition my dog runs against. But in the case that a Brit trial is running on a weekend that I'm open & is close enough to me and they aren't offering a limited stake............ and there will likely be lots of FC's and/or AFC's running in an OGD stake? heck yeah I'd enter my dog in that stake. But it wouldn't be my first or second preference- and I certainly wouldn't target them.

I think Wyndancer summed it up quite well- if the 1st place is so important at a Brit OGD stake, then close it to just Brits, don't take anyone else's money, run your stake, declare your winner & wallah............ a Brit has qualified for Nationals! I'd be fine with that. But if the club opens the stake to all breeds and then takes the entry fee money from the owners of dogs who aren't Brits....... well- they're kind of sending a message to folks that these dogs are welcome to run in the stake!

Rob

[cmc274]

How many people have written their parent clubs and AKC requesting modifications to the eligibility for various stakes and changes to titling requirements? I am hopeful the percentage is around 90.

[ultracarry]

DID SOMEONE MENTION NSTRA IN THIS THREAD...and I thought we were talking about REAL competition.

Chukar I believe someone's dog also cleaned up in the amature Derby and amature puppy... and a certain secretary braced that particular dog in those after open gun dog. All three braces within two hours.. maybe just maybe that person owned a GSP lol.

[jetjockey]

Just out of curiousity, what does it take to get an FC on a GSP, or qualify for nationals? Do GSP's have to qualify every year? Do they have to win a major? Don't they have to win a retrieving trial? Is there a lot of limited trials to run GSP's in? In order to compare apples to apples, we need to know the differences between the two circuits.

[ezzy333]

This whole thread is just a lot about nothing from the very first post all the way through. It always gets me when people start complaining about something and have absolutely no knowledge why. If this is such a concern then instead of posting it here, call the people and find out why they set it up the way they did. There normally is a very good reason and it will be something completely different than it appears.

It is almost comical though to hear all of the different opinions, some of which I agree with and some I don't, but that in it self tells you just a whole lot about this terrible circumstance. We know everyone on our board is extremely sensible and yet there are ten or twenty different opinions stated. I could add mine and then we would have one more but we would know no more than we did when the original post was made.

It also is rather humorous to hear the same people talk about their AA dogs being great hunting dogs but then they say they can't keep those same dogs on a gun dog course. Or that it is unfair to have to run with dogs already finished or it is unfair to ask to exclude them. Or that my dog runs against better competition then yours so my title is worth more and in the next breath we find the dogs are judged against a standard instead of the other dogs, so consequently the judges can and do with hold the titles.

There are many reasons a certain stake isn't run at a trial or that they limit it to certain dogs as you all know. If you want to know why, call and find out instead of using every little thing you can find to belittle someone else or some other group.

If I recall correctly the original poster is quite big in NASTRA and they limit who can run in certain stakes habitually. But it is alright there im that case. And why shouldn't any dog have to beat whoever wants to enter if is to get the points?

Ezzy

[ACooper]

From the horses mouth:

At present a dog of one of the Pointing Breeds will be
recorded a Field Champion after having won 10 points
under the point rating schedule below in regular stakes
in at least three licensed or member field trials, provided
that 3 points have been won in one 3 point or better
Open All-Age, Open Gun Dog, Open Limited All-Age,
or Open Limited Gun Dog Stake, that no more than
2 points each have been won by placing first in Open
or Amateur Walking Puppy and Open or Amateur
Walking Derby Stakes, and that no more than 4 of the
10 points have been won by placing first in Amateur
Stakes;
EXCEPT THAT a Brittany shall not be recorded a
Field Champion unless it has won a 3 point or better
Open Gun Dog, Open All-Age, Open Limited Gun Dog,
or Open Limited All-Age Stake in a licensed or member
field trial held by a Brittany Club;
EXCEPT THAT a German Shorthaired Pointer,
German Wirehaired Pointer, Vizsla, or Weimaraner,
shall not be recorded a Field Champion unless it has
won at least 4 points in Retrieving Stakes at licensed
or member club field trials;
AND EXCEPT THAT a German Wire haired
Pointer, or Weimaraner, shall not be recorded a Field
Champion unless it has also been certified by two of
the approved judges to have passed a Water Test at a
licensed or member field trial or hunting test held by a
pointing breed club. In the case of a Weimaraner, if it
has been certified by the Weimaraner Club of America
to have passed an All-Age Water Certification Test, or
to have been given a rating of Novice Retrieving Dog,
Retrieving Dog or Retrieving Dog Excellent, it shall be
considered to have met the Water Test requirement.

See all here: http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RFTPNT.pdf

[kninebirddog]

This whole thread is just a lot about nothing from the very first post all the way through. It always gets me when people start complaining about something and have absolutely no knowledge why. If this is such a concern then instead of posting it here, call the people and find out why they set it up the way they did. There normally is a very good reason and it will be something completely different than it appears.

It is almost comical though to hear all of the different opinions, some of which I agree with and some I don't, but that in it self tells you just a whole lot about this terrible circumstance. We know everyone on our board is extremely sensible and yet there are ten or twenty different opinions stated. I could add mine and then we would have one more but we would know no more than we did when the original post was made.

It also is rather humorous to hear the same people talk about their AA dogs being great hunting dogs but then they say they can't keep those same dogs on a gun dog course. Or that it is unfair to have to run with dogs already finished or it is unfair to ask to exclude them. Or that my dog runs against better competition then yours so my title is worth more and in the next breath we find the dogs are judged against a standard instead of the other dogs, so consequently the judges can and do with hold the titles.

There are many reasons a certain stake isn't run at a trial or that they limit it to certain dogs as you all know. If you want to know why, call and find out instead of using every little thing you can find to belittle someone else or some other group.

If I recall correctly the original poster is quite big in NASTRA and they limit who can run in certain stakes habitually. But it is alright there im that case. And why shouldn't any dog have to beat whoever wants to enter if is to get the points?

Ezzy

EXCUSE ME EZZY ...For your information The person who got this premium is running a dog from My program. And I do support ALL TRIALS and I find even Asking that a titled dog not run to be as ridiculous as your post is it is to me water down just like breeding a dog that has a lesser field ability because it falls in some standard which FYI I still would much rather breed a smaller female to a larger male as long as both are die hard bird dogs which you constantly like to run down My pups can go out and run against the Pointing breeds and are doing it in AF and AKC and as for NSTRA you want to run RUN step up to the plate and beat the field of dogs your are running no watering down a dog ability to win against dogs.

but neither here nor there You have crossed the line I have just as much right to express my thoughts as you do and up until your post this post was ging along just fine and your post as usual is full of gas and poison...You do a lot to fuel fires rather then moderate.

Bill West Derby Classic
1st Place: K-Nine Tucaluta Chance
Ed Mayhew Owner/ Handler
Reg # 1616435 Brittany Male
Sire: Maxwell’s blew By You
Dam: K Nine’s Peek-a-boo

2nd Place; Cash’n In
Jim Schultz Owner/ Handler
Reg # 1621604 Eng Pointer Male
Sire: No Limit Rebuy
Dam: No limit Belle

3rd Place: Sand Creek Holly
Dr. C A Hjerpe Owner/ Handler
Reg # 1620804 Eng Pointer F
Sire: Wells Fargo First Dude
Dam: Wells Fargo Mollie

http://www.remekvizslas.net/dog.php4?id=51272

Open Derby
Craig Lewis and Casten Pigman
14 Starters
1 - K Nine Tucalota Chance (Brit)
2 - Cash'N In (Pointer)
3 - Tucalota's Samantha (Brit)
4 - Bad Beat (Pointer)

http://www.ruidosonews.com/ruidoso-sports/ci_17693412

The winners of the New Mexico Open Derby Classic were Jim Schultz of Arizona with his pointer male, Cash'n In, Runner-up was Ed Mayhew of California with his Brittany male, Knine Tucalota Chance, third place went to professional dog trainer, Bill Gibbons and his setter female, Magma's Cactus Wren from Arizona.

December 2-5

Host: Fresno BDC
Open Derby (All-Age standards)
Judges: E. Mauck, W. Owen
1st – Gertrude – SF – H Meyer/S Twer
2nd – Tucalota's Ruby – PF – E Mayhew
3rd – K Nine Tucalota Chance – BF – E Mayhew


So this one young dog I co own is from My breeding program is running trials and when he gets his wins both AKC and American Field they are Earned not just being run in selected trials and will continue to be run where he has to prove himself.

So comical....I am glad you find pissing people off comical ...So what just because I chose to participate in NSTRA because I could run more braces and it is closer to what I do and I don't have to purchase a hayburner to really run it I can't support my friends in the trials they choose to do and I go to them when I can and support them. Might try reading your last Brittany magazine what Margaret Hortsmeyer wrote up you might find I was there helping where ever I could supporting the brittany club supporting the Brittany futurity Spending time with friends.
So sorry if I state that your post was completely UNcalled for

[ezzy333]

Arlette.

You are the only one out of 4000 memebers who have responded to my poisonoius post. I am sure there will be others and I would be surprised and disappointed if you are the obnly one with a different opinion.

Maybe you could wait till at least 5 or 6 people respond before blowing your cork. Or maybe instead of always trying to seperate our sport you could work at bringing all of the different venues together to support our hobby. And when you see some thing that doesn't look right you could call, get the real reasons behind their actions and then you would have some grounds to bitch and I would be right there with you. You made the post, so tell us now after 50 posts or more why did they do it? You still don't have a clue.

I would be interested in knowing instead of just complain about something we know nothing about.

Ezzy

[DGFavor]

I assume you're gonna be southwest of Boise around the 26th? We can settle this once and for all, over a jug of brown likker?

I'll be there look me up...the guy with the pickup and horse trailer! Oh...and dogs. Well, heck, that won't help ya' none...just look for me:

[kninebirddog]

Arlette.

You are the only one out of 4000 memebers who have responded to my poisonoius post. I am sure there will be others and I would be surprised and disappointed if you are the obnly one with a different opinion.

Maybe you could wait till at least 5 or 6 people respond before blowing your cork. Or maybe instead of always trying to seperate our sport you could work at bringing all of the different venues together to support our hobby. And when you see some thing that doesn't look right you could call, get the real reasons behind their actions and then you would have some grounds to bitch and I would be right there with you. You made the post, so tell us now after 50 posts or more why did they do it? You still don't have a clue.

I would be interested in knowing instead of just complain about something we know nothing about.

Ezzy

Umm I think You were the one that made that separation in this post and pointed out like I run NSTRA and how comical that I would make this post ...Might try reading your post and see who did what here ...

So Now back to the OP and Watering down titles..and how people feel where asking in an AKC premium that those dogs with titles to not be entered to run in certain stakes.

[kninebirddog]

I assume you're gonna be southwest of Boise around the 26th? We can settle this once and for all, over a jug of brown likker?

I'll be there look me up...the guy with the pickup and horse trailer! Oh...and dogs. Well, heck, that won't help ya' none...just look for me:

LMAO So are you the one on top or under your horse

Sure wish I could go some year

[dan v]

Doug...I think it easy to see....you're not originally from Idaho. More from Davey Crockett country?

I really pictured you more like this.



Maybe more in the Fess Parker vein?

[kninebirddog]

Doug...I think it easy to see....you're not originally from Idaho. More from Davey Crockett country?

I really pictured you more like this.



Maybe more in the Fess Parker vein?

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