can you register a short hair britney mix?

[sjkennels]

i was talking to a guy about one of his dogs that he is giving away (short hair x britney mix) and he said that it was registered but his wife lost the papers a couple years ago so can you register one? to my knowledge you cant i thought it had to be full blooded. thanks for the help.

[gittrdonebritts]

I know with cattle you can register them as breed if the breed your registering them as is the dominate one, but I'm pretty sure you can't with dogs.

[sjkennels]

i know there was one guy trying to get them to become recognized as a breed and he had to produce like 6 or so generations to get i guess akc to recognize them the guy advertised this female as a 3 year old registered short hair but when i called he told me it was actually a registered shortney. so i am a little leery about it now.

[AzDoggin]

i was talking to a guy about one of his dogs that he is giving away (short hair x britney mix) and he said that it was registered but his wife lost the papers a couple years ago so can you register one? to my knowledge you cant i thought it had to be full blooded. thanks for the help.

I don't think there is a breed registry, per se, that you could register the dog in, but you certainly could participate in hunt testing and register the dog with VHDF http://www.vhdf.org/vhdf/

Who Can Participate?

Any current VHDF member may participate in VHDF sanctioned events. In order to enter or handle a dog in a VHDF test, the owner and handler must be a member of VHDF. There are no registry requirements as VHDF does not have a registry function. Any registered dog may be entered in a VHDF test. Registered purebred dogs will be classified within the VHDF database according to breed. Non-registered dogs may also participate in VHDF events and will be classified in the "Other" category.
.

[gittrdonebritts]

i know there was one guy trying to get them to become recognized as a breed and he had to produce like 6 or so generations to get i guess akc to recognize them the guy advertised this female as a 3 year old registered short hair but when i called he told me it was actually a registered shortney. so i am a little leery about it now.

I would stay away from a so called shortney its a designer breed just like a labradoodel and all the other variations. Stick with the purebred dogs from established breeders.

[Birddog3412]

I know with cattle you can register them as breed if the breed your registering them as is the dominate one, but I'm pretty sure you can't with dogs.

With cattle they have low and high percentage registration with some breeds such as Chianina or Maine Anjou. And of corse the so called Certified Angus Beef that only has to be 51% to qualify.

As far as registering a dog that was a mutt, I think there is somthing like...American dog association, of something goofy like that that recognizes "designer" or "hybrid" breeds like labradoodle, yorkiepoo, etc. Sounds like you can invent your own breed.

[Cajun Casey]

No legitimate studbook accepts mutts.

[sjkennels]

thats what i was thinking thanks for the answers

[gittrdonebritts]

I know with cattle you can register them as breed if the breed your registering them as is the dominate one, but I'm pretty sure you can't with dogs.

With cattle they have low and high percentage registration with some breeds such as Chianina or Maine Anjou. And of corse the so called Certified Angus Beef that only has to be 51% to qualify.

As far as registering a dog that was a mutt, I think there is somthing like...American dog association, of something goofy like that that recognizes "designer" or "hybrid" breeds like labradoodle, yorkiepoo, etc. Sounds like you can invent your own breed.

The last time I talked with my friend who is still in the beef industry they lowered the % of Angus the particular animal had to be but to make them eligible for the certified Angus beef program they slipped it in with some other deal they wanted to pass and of course they don't advertise it. and I could do with out the chi and main crosses they were some of the most nut's cattle I ever tried to break and most of them never maid it to the show ring.

[AzDoggin]

No legitimate studbook accepts mutts.

True. It's also true that all the "purebreds" were were mutts in the beginning.

So here's the question: what should it take for a new "mutt combination" to become a 'legitimate' breed?

I'm not arguing on behalf of this dog in particular - just asking the question.

The other observation that is likely true is that this dog may well be a heck of a hunter if his parents were.

[RoostersMom]

If the dog looks like a "predominant" breed, ie, if she looks like a brittany, then you can register her with the AKC under an "ILP" or Indefinite Listing Privelege. I have done this for shelter dogs so that I could hunt test them. The dog will need to be neutered or spayed before registering it.

[kninebirddog]

We call them shtneys...and The best thing you can do is which ever the dog looks most like get is spayed or neutered and apply for an AKC ILP/PAL then you can do a hunt test or agility obedience

Doesn't matter if both parent are registered if they aren't the same breed they are a mix breed and are not registrable you can i believe do hunt tournaments but field trials sanctioned by AKC FDSB NSTRA NAVDHA require purebred animals ..again Hunt test and agility and obedience they can d under an ILP PAL but they have to be spayed or neutered to attain one as no progeny from such mixes will be eligible for a full registration either.

[ACooper]

No legitimate studbook accepts mutts.

So here's the question: what should it take for a new "mutt combination" to become a 'legitimate' breed?

They have to breed true to type.

[jasonw99]

u can register a shorthair pointer mix. just remember to dock it's tail haha.
I often wonder how often it happens.

[gittrdonebritts]

u can register a shorthair pointer mix. just remember to dock it's tail haha.
I often wonder how often it happens.

Lets not get that argument going lol

[Cajun Casey]

u can register a shorthair pointer mix. just remember to dock it's tail haha.
I often wonder how often it happens.

Not very often these days, thanks to DNA.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

+10 CC

[DougB]

There are a few registries that claim to register your mutt. Send your money, your dog goes in the book. Along with doodles, morkies, and other designer dogs. A breed has to be bred true for multiple generations. Nothing against crossbred dogs. Some are excellent hunters. Just not much predictability in the litters.
I think you need to have a breed club that sets the standards to be AKC, meet number requirements, send in money.(there is a trend here)

[Cajun Casey]

thats what i was thinking thanks for the answers

You're welcome. I hope she finds a good home. If she's a good little hunting companion, it doesn't matter what she is. Well, spayed maybe matters.

[ezzy333]

The main registry in this area that registers anything is the Pet Registry and there are people trying to take advantage of it and advertise there dogs as registered.

Ezzy

[sjkennels]

thats what i was thinking thanks for the answers

You're welcome. I hope she finds a good home. If she's a good little hunting companion, it doesn't matter what she is. Well, spayed maybe matters.

yea i hope she finds a good home. but if anyone around here wants her i can give you the contact info for her. i was told she will point and retrieve.

[AzDoggin]

No legitimate studbook accepts mutts.

True. It's also true that all the "purebreds" were were mutts in the beginning.

So here's the question: what should it take for a new "mutt combination" to become a 'legitimate' breed?

I'm not arguing on behalf of this dog in particular - just asking the question.

They have to breed true to type.

Yep, that's the way it is now - but if it had always been that way, we'd have one breed of dog and it would look like a wolf, right?

That's the question I'm asking - what does it take for a "breed combination" to take off and fly as a breed of it's own? The corollary to that question is Will there never again be another "breed" established?

Lot's of great breeds got their start this way. Look at the Pudelpointer for example - basically 9/10's pointer and 1/10 Wasserpudel (poodle). Look at the GWP - pudelpointer, GSP, some Griff, who knows what else?

All these breeds got their start as mutts, and then had breeders who had the vision to begin a program based on the characteristics they wanted in a dog.

I'm not saying we should have more breeds, just asking the question What does it take in modern times to get another breed established?

[GUNDOGS]

u can register a shorthair pointer mix. just remember to dock it's tail haha.
I often wonder how often it happens.

i thought that many times too haha..has there ever been a dog that won a trial or show and was found out to be mixed?..or do they test DNA at all the events before hand?....ruth

[r nickell]

With the drop in AKC registered dogs over the last few years in an attempt to keep the the money flowing in you might see more and more breeds being accepted. Depends on if they decided to keep true to the purpose of what they were founded for or do they fold to the finiacal needs. They started down the money path with the introduction of P.A.L. so we will see what comes next. Please don't think I am being an elitist snob here since none of my dogs are registered. Just my thoughts since seems most organizations tend to follow the money.

[Cajun Casey]

With the drop in AKC registered dogs over the last few years in an attempt to keep the the money flowing in you might see more and more breeds being accepted. Depends on if they decided to keep true to the purpose of what they were founded for or do they fold to the finiacal needs. They started down the money path with the introduction of P.A.L. so we will see what comes next. Please don't think I am being an elitist snob here since none of my dogs are registered. Just my thoughts since seems most organizations tend to follow the money.

Well, if they didn't have money, they wouldn't be an organization.

First, AKC has a new and successful program for mixed breeds which allows them to participate in all breed performance events for titles. Not all clubs will allow them to enter, however, and they may be restricted to their own events. As far as new breeds, it's not as simple as a breed wanting to be AKC. They have to have a parent breed club, an organized studbook, do time in FSS and Miscellaneous, and prove they are capable of sustaining registration and entries. Sometimes, the process is speeded up, like in the case of the Norwegian lundehund, because a breed needs the administrative and technical assistance that AKC provides. Lundehunds mostly descend from five siblings and one outside dog.

AKC is the foremost advocate for dog owners when it comes to health information. They are also a recognizable force in lobbying to support our rights to even have dogs, let alone to do anything with them.

The main consideration here is that a dog needs a home.

[GUNDOGS]

Just wondering out of curiousity...why do so many people buy a registerable pup but not register it?..does it not benefit the AKC organization financially for us to pay the small fee and just register them?..maybe if the AKC registration was a necessity to enter field events and sponsered the events it would encourage more people to registered their pups..its like our outdoors card, we keep ours up to date and always will whether we hunt/fish or not to keep them viable....ruth

[big steve46]

It's not the fault of the dog who appears to be a lovable, good potential hunter. As long as she's spayed, I don't see a problem with a "dropper" or half-breed. There should be someone who just wants a good birddog.

[AzDoggin]

It's not the fault of the dog who appears to be a lovable, good potential hunter. As long as she's spayed, I don't see a problem with a "dropper" or half-breed. There should be someone who just wants a good birddog.

Absolutely. It's just a matter of getting the ad in front of the right set of eyes.

I guess "breedism" is pretty central in the bird dog culture. Truth is, if a dog like this comes from hunting parents, it's likely she'll hunt too. Heck with a little more genetic diversity, she might outlive the purebreds.

It's interesting really. With all the arguments on here that "it's the individual dog, not the breed," you'd think that same logic would apply in this dogs case, but it clearly does not.

[r nickell]

I think much of the problem of people not registering their dogs lays with the breeders not the buyers. Many of the breeders on this and other hunting forums not only try and make sure their pups get registered but also that the buyer tests in various ways depending on the breed. But som breeders of sporting dogs could care less if their puppies are registered or not since once the dog is purchased they are only concerned with the money from the next litter. As a breed becomes more popular more and more people are breeding it that have no concern for the improvement of the breed only the dallors that the pups will bring them. I will use Labs as an example how many breeders are cranking out pups that have no interest in hunting and therefore do not breed with that goal in mind. The rescues are full of sporting dogs that were bred and marketed more for the family pet market then then hunters. It has been estimated that 25% of all the dogs in shelters and rescues are pure bred. I would think the number of sporting dogs that are owner surrenders because the dog did not have what it takes to make a hunter is far less then surrendered by non hunters cause they found out that the dog wanted to chase the cat. As the dogs themselfs I would not trade my rescue mutts for the world since they are my hunting buddies.

[ezzy333]

Just wondering out of curiousity...why do so many people buy a registerable pup but not register it?..does it not benefit the AKC organization financially for us to pay the small fee and just register them?..maybe if the AKC registration was a necessity to enter field events and sponsered the events it would encourage more people to registered their pups..its like our outdoors card, we keep ours up to date and always will whether we hunt/fish or not to keep them viable....ruth

They buy a registrable pup because they want a purebred and that is the only way you can insure it is pure. They buy that purebred because they need some idea of what the pup will look like and what its inbred traits will be. They don;t register the pup because they are not going to breed it and all they needed was a litter registration that says the pup is a purebred. AKC registration is a requirement to enter trials or a show ring. However, recently AKC has accepted a lesser degree for inclusion in their hunt test which has allowed owners of some crossbreds and rescues where there was no registration but the dog appears to be a purebred to participate in those tests.

With the drop in AKC registered dogs over the last few years in an attempt to keep the the money flowing in you might see more and more breeds being accepted. Depends on if they decided to keep true to the purpose of what they were founded for or do they fold to the finiacal needs. They started down the money path with the introduction of P.A.L. so we will see what comes next. Please don't think I am being an elitist snob here since none of my dogs are registered. Just my thoughts since seems most organizations tend to follow the money.

The requirements to have AKC keep the stud books for a breed was answered well. I seriously would doubt there is a great deal of profit in registering a dog for AKC but to stay viable those of us in the dog world better hope they can make enough to stay in business or we are all in trouble. If you have a breed of dogs you have to have a stud book and someone has to keep that and keep it up to date, I'm sure every breed of dogs in the world today is desperate to find someone to keep the books and we here in this country are lucky to have 3 or 4 reliable organizations that will do it for us.


Ezzy

[GUNDOGS]

I am just thinking that maybe the 20 bucks for registering the pup may not be a huge profit for the AKC but for every pup born if the 20 bucks was paid by the buyer it would definitley not hurt right?..i remember not to long ago a member posted he had noticed hardly any of his pups ended up being registered from past litters..i wonder what the stats are on pups born and pups registered..one thing i see often is pups for sale "with" or "without" papers and different prices for them..it really encourages buyers to not get papers cause they can get the pup for alot less.....ruth

[Cajun Casey]

I am just thinking that maybe the 20 bucks for registering the pup may not be a huge profit for the AKC but for every pup born if the 20 bucks was paid by the buyer it would definitley not hurt right?..i remember not to long ago a member posted he had noticed hardly any of his pups ended up being registered from past litters..i wonder what the stats are on pups born and pups registered..one thing i see often is pups for sale "with" or "without" papers and different prices for them..it really encourages buyers to not get papers cause they can get the pup for alot less.....ruth

If they cut corners there, they will cut them elsewhere. Too many potentially good free dogs out there (like the GWP on Craigslist here this morning) to reward crummy breeders wiith a stipend for producing more junk.

[GUNDOGS]

I am just thinking that maybe the 20 bucks for registering the pup may not be a huge profit for the AKC but for every pup born if the 20 bucks was paid by the buyer it would definitley not hurt right?..i remember not to long ago a member posted he had noticed hardly any of his pups ended up being registered from past litters..i wonder what the stats are on pups born and pups registered..one thing i see often is pups for sale "with" or "without" papers and different prices for them..it really encourages buyers to not get papers cause they can get the pup for alot less.....ruth

If they cut corners there, they will cut them elsewhere. Too many potentially good free dogs out there (like the GWP on Craigslist here this morning) to reward crummy breeders wiith a stipend for producing more junk.

True.......ruth

[ezzy333]

I thik you are going to have a hard time requiring people to register their dogs when they have no need to so there is no payback. And I think it will be a hard sell to prove that people who don't spend 20 bucks for a worthless piece of paper to them are cutting corners or rewarding people for producing pups that don't meet your personal qualifications. If you want to stop puppy mills there is one way to do it and that is to do away with the people who buy them.. There has to be a market if there is going to be production. Just a basic rule of economics.

Ezzy

[Cajun Casey]

If you want your AKC pups registered, use LPR and do it yourself. The new owner can put the name on or have it ready for you.

[GUNDOGS]

I thik you are going to have a hard time requiring people to register their dogs when they have no need to so there is no payback. And I think it will be a hard sell to prove that people who don't spend 20 bucks for a worthless piece of paper to them are cutting corners or rewarding people for producing pups that don't meet your personal qualifications. If you want to stop puppy mills there is one way to do it and that is to do away with the people who buy them.. There has to be a market if there is going to be production. Just a basic rule of economics.

Ezzy

Why do you need payback to help keep these organizations viable..i donate to all kinds of organizations without payback..i volunteer every saturday transporting rescues with my daughter and dont require payback and i give to the cancer center here in town without payback..so i was just thinking that all those folks who have a purebred pup and only can ensure they are getting a purebred because of organizations like the AKC why not just get the paper and consider it a donation?.....ruth

[ezzy333]

I thik you are going to have a hard time requiring people to register their dogs when they have no need to so there is no payback. And I think it will be a hard sell to prove that people who don't spend 20 bucks for a worthless piece of paper to them are cutting corners or rewarding people for producing pups that don't meet your personal qualifications. If you want to stop puppy mills there is one way to do it and that is to do away with the people who buy them.. There has to be a market if there is going to be production. Just a basic rule of economics.

Ezzy

Why do you need payback to help keep these organizations viable..i donate to all kinds of organizations without payback..i volunteer every saturday transporting rescues with my daughter and dont require payback and i give to the cancer center here in town without payback..so i was just thinking that all those folks who have a purebred pup and only can ensure they are getting a purebred because of organizations like the AKC why not just get the paper and consider it a donation?.....ruth

Ruth, you answered your own question. You donate to things you are interested in. So do I. And the payback,which you do require just as much as anyone else is the good feeling you get from doing something that you feel is important. The reason they don't is because there is no payback for them. They probably donate time and money to things that they feel are important just like you and I so the answer is for you convince everyone that buys a purebred pup that they need AKC and that they need the money.

But first we need to convince the people who produce the pups, advertise them as being purebred but because the pup does not meet their personal requirement do not provide the papers to the buyer or some only give restricted papers till you do what they want you to. Truth is AKC probably has no need for our charity but if they do they better work at streamlining their operation so they spend less as well as ask for more income. Kind of like what we are asking our governments to do.

Ezzy

[Gordon Guy]

+1 ezzy,
I'm a breeder and many of my pups I sell never get registered. The buyers don't participate in dog events or plan on breeding, so why should they register.... What benefit would they receive? AKC would get $20.00 and the buyer gets a peice of paper.

[solon]

Here is a relatively modern example of cross breeding, although the two breeds are closely related:

http://www.nrsftc.com/history.htm

For an experiment in cross breeding that is very interesting, see this story:

http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES1.html

I remember reading about new breeds bred to specialize in turkey hunting. Here is one:

http://www.huntingpa.com/forums/ubbthre ... er=2081768

This is the one I remember reading about in Field and Stream and also saw on TV:

"The closest thing to a “true turkey dog” is the one bred in the 1960s by Virginia cattle farmer John Byrne. Byrne developed the breed now called the Appalachian turkey dog by crossing a pointer with an English setter and a Plott hound."
For more on this:

http://www.turkeytrotacres.com/huntingl ... nting.html

I am not sure if the Applachian Turkey Dog is a one man project or whether these dogs became registered with some organization.

http://huntingnet.com/fieldjournal/fiel ... x?nID=1254

As someone mentioned, the key to using crosses to produce a new breed is to reach the stage where they breed true to type.

Solon

[Ron R]

Apologies because I have not read anybodies replies but I'm sure the dog could be registered as a "hybrid" if both parents were purebred and registered. Example, laboradoodle and all that other garbage.

[AzDoggin]

Here is a relatively modern example of cross breeding, although the two breeds are closely related:

http://www.nrsftc.com/history.htm

For an experiment in cross breeding that is very interesting, see this story:

http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES1.html ... Solon

So there IS a historian 'round these parts!! Very nice Solon. Good examples of how dog breeds evolve over time. It was only about a century ago that the Germans were messing around with pointers and poodles and created the Pudelpointer - and not too much later the GSP and Griff were added to PP and wallah - the GWP. All breeds were formed this way, some more recently, and some much further back in time. I know down south there is always evolution going on with the variety of curs and so on. The bottom line is that EVERY BREED has a beginning that consisted of combining two or more genetically unlike dogs...

If folks through man's history always kept outlooks like this one:

Example, laboradoodle and all that other garbage.

There would be one variety of dog running around - it would look just like this:

[Brittguy]

Apologies because I have not read anybodies replies but I'm sure the dog could be registered as a "hybrid" if both parents were purebred and registered. Example, laboradoodle and all that other garbage.

What registry does this?

[ezzy333]

Here is a relatively modern example of cross breeding, although the two breeds are closely related:

http://www.nrsftc.com/history.htm

For an experiment in cross breeding that is very interesting, see this story:

http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES1.html ... Solon

So there IS a historian 'round these parts!! Very nice Solon. Good examples of how dog breeds evolve over time. It was only about a century ago that the Germans were messing around with pointers and poodles and created the Pudelpointer - and not too much later the GSP and Griff were added to PP and wallah - the GWP. All breeds were formed this way, some more recently, and some much further back in time. I know down south there is always evolution going on with the variety of curs and so on. The bottom line is that EVERY BREED has a beginning that consisted of combining two or more genetically unlike dogs...

If folks through man's history always kept outlooks like this one:

Example, laboradoodle and all that other garbage.

There would be one variety of dog running around - it would look just like this:

I think the big difference and it is essential, you have to have a goal in mine. people did not just crossbreed animals to start a new breed but rather cross bred animals with certain traits for the express purpose oc creating a dog different than what was available at the time and that they needed to fill a spot on the sporting world that the breeds of the day couldn't fill.

Ezzy

[AzDoggin]

I think the big difference and it is essential, you have to have a goal in mine. people did not just crossbreed animals to start a new breed but rather cross bred animals with certain traits for the express purpose oc creating a dog different than what was available at the time and that they needed to fill a spot on the sporting world that the breeds of the day couldn't fill.Ezzy

Couldn't agree more Ezzy, though I will say that accidents and serendipity have been responsible for many, many scientific developments as well as improvement in dog breeds over the years. As I've heard the breeders say many times, you can control the expression of genetics - to an extent. Sometimes new combinations exceed the wildest expectations and are well worth continuing, and sometimes they flop and merit neutering of all offspring.

I'm not arguing every mutt should be registerable, far from it. It's just that without innovation - taking a risk - most breeds as we know them today wouldn't exist.

[ezzy333]

Can't agree with that as I think the breeds we have today except fot the brit was a well thought out process with little left to chance.

Ezzy

[AzDoggin]

Can't agree with that as I think the breeds we have today except fot the brit was a well thought out process with little left to chance.

Ezzy

Well thought out, maybe so, including knowing when to keep a characteristic that was unintended, and when to drop it.

What makes you say that about the britt? Popularity and too many backyard breeders?

[ezzy333]

Can't agree with that as I think the breeds we have today except fot the brit was a well thought out process with little left to chance.

Ezzy

Well thought out, maybe so, including knowing when to keep a characteristic that was unintended, and when to drop it.

What makes you say that about the britt? Popularity and too many backyard breeders?

I never met a breed with too many backyard breeders. But I say that because there was no standard that they were bred to. They were created y the commoners of Brittany having a small little dog that hunted close and was extremely biddable so they could be used to poach game off of the kings land, which was all there was. They had to get i and get out before the gamekeepers came after hearing a shot. They also were used with nets when possible. What happened was if I had a good little dog and you had one too we bred them with nothing in mind as far as looks other than they hunted the way they needed to. They ended up with a pretty much nondescript little dog that had different hair coats, different sizes, etc but all were pretty mcu alike in ability and attitude. But most of their physical characteristics came about by accident and not really bred for.

Ezzy

[Ron R]

Apologies because I have not read anybodies replies but I'm sure the dog could be registered as a "hybrid" if both parents were purebred and registered. Example, laboradoodle and all that other garbage.

What registry does this?

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/hybridmain.htm

[Cajun Casey]

That is not a registry. That is a volume breeder listing service.

[topher40]

Why would you even want to register it? If you are SERIOUS about competing with a dog that should be registered then cutting corners on breeding sure isnt going to get you into the game any faster.