when to call it quits

[rm9802]

Here is a question for some of u more exp trainers out there...when do u finaly give up on a dog and decide to call it a pet...what age and what signs would you look for.

[kninebirddog]

really depends on what the long term goal is and what time and efforts you are willing to put into what may turn out to be mediocre at best. if at each go there shows a bot more light at the end of the tunnel then there is hope...but if you have a program many of those dogs that finally turn out to be an OK hunter fall short of what a more serious person wants to hunt or trial behind so it boils down to what you will be happy or OK with

[GUNDOGS]

Well im not an experienced trainer but will tell you that you have to know what you expect, want or need out of your dog based on your intentions..like are you looking for mainly a companion that will hunt with you once in a while..or do you want to show your dog in confirmation shows, or do you want to trial your dog ect..there are many variables and its really what you want from your dog and what you can offer your dog as well..sometimes you may need to make changes because the dog needs more than you can give..thats what happened with us..6 years ago we had an english setter dog bailey he was a very far ranging dog and at the time we just didnt know how to bring him in and get him to listen..he worked great on a checkcord and was perfect in the yard but let him go in a field and he was GONE!!..he was hunting for himself and we were along for the ride..we went to more obedience lessons, talked to lots of trainers and hunters and just couldnt get the job done..we sent him to kansas to a well known respected trainer we had been talking to and after he had him for a week a friend of his who was an avid trialer/hunter wanted bailey and LOVED his range so we let him go..he was better off with someone more experienced and is still to this day with the guy and one of his best dogs..NOW we know one of the main issues was we didnt work him enough nor did we hunt him enough to suit his needs/genetics..we have learned from that experience to exercise, train and hunt as much as possible and made lifesyle changes before getting another bird dog to ensure we can do that..we are even in the process of looking for property 5 hours away to access more land and birds..in my opinion youre not ever calling it quits on a dog just making the best decision you can for him/her based on your own abilities and thats loving your dog not quiting it.....ruth

[JKP]

You pull the plug when you feel you have given the dog every opportunity to show itself...or when in spite of all efforts, the dog isn't developing further. There is a good place for every dog...and sometimes its with someone else. But do the dog right and find a good place.
This brings up the need for dogs that not only have the desire and talent, but that also mature early and are trainable by the weekend warrior...many folks don't have the 3-4-5 years to wait for a dog to settle down and get serious or the money to invest in a trainer. With the quality of dogs in every breed, this shouldn't be necessary.

[Nhuskr]

Here is a question for some of u more exp trainers out there...when do u finaly give up on a dog and decide to call it a pet...what age and what signs would you look for.

Hey rm, I'm a newbie myself, but I have to wonder why, with a 9 wk old pup, you're already asking this question? It sounds like you're already setting yourself and the pup up for failure. I'd encourage you to ask questions that deal with the positive, like "how can I tell my pup is ready to move on to the next step?"

This puppy stage is hard, and like with toddlers, things get worse before they get better. Just enjoy bonding with pup now and having fun.

Cheryl

[Cajun Casey]

There would be a lot more happy dogs and people if some never called it "starts." By eight, certainly ten, weeks, the basic personality is evident. That's where the first cut should be made. Unfortunately, there is not a big pet demand for some sporting breeds and the egos of the breeders get in the way of drafting pups to pet only homes. I'd rather send a pup to a pet home than a home that will quit him later for a different interest. Rescue is full of dogs that didn't live up to the expectations of their owners, along with dogs whose owners didn't stay the course with training or ran out of time, money, interest, whatever.

[JKP]

By eight, certainly ten, weeks, the basic personality is evident. That's where the first cut should be made.

Pretty early to make a "go..no go" decision. What would you be looking for that would make a pup a no go? outside of a gross temperament or physical problem.

[Chukar12]

I really think that most field bred dogs can make a hunting dog today, there are of course exceptions but many of those that we see got a bad start, the dogs that just don't have it in them to please the average hunting family are few and far between. I think the bigger mistake is as Ruth pointed out, JKP eluded to, and Ryman espouses religiously is that people make a bad choice in their selection of breedings and to a smaller extent breed itself. I know that I am painting with a broad brush here, but most hunters from a performance aspect would be happiest with a versatile type dog rather than an AA pointer, setter, etc... Their inability to handle and provide the hunting environment best suited to the wrong kind of dog brings a lot of frustration. On a different note, questioning your choice at 8 or 10 weeks calls into question the wisdom of owning a dog to begin with?

[Cajun Casey]

I really think that most field bred dogs can make a hunting dog today, there are of course exceptions but many of those that we see got a bad start, the dogs that just don't have it in them to please the average hunting family are few and far between. I think the bigger mistake is as Ruth pointed out, JKP eluded to, and Ryman espouses religiously is that people make a bad choice in their selection of breedings and to a smaller extent breed itself. I know that I am painting with a broad brush here, but most hunters from a performance aspect would be happiest with a versatile type dog rather than an AA pointer, setter, etc... Their inability to handle and provide the hunting environment best suited to the wrong kind of dog brings a lot of frustration. On a different note, questioning your choice at 8 or 10 weeks calls into question the wisdom of owning a dog to begin with?

Really? Guide Dogs for the Blind, Therapetics, Seeing Eye, many police and military breeding programs and most show and performance (obedience, agility) breeders would disagree. Few pointers are AA dogs, compared to the number whelped, so I don't know why a versatile would be a better choice.

When people shop based on color, tail, red ink, that sort of criteria, that's when the problems start.

Right now I have a ten week old puppy that cannot go to a new owner because of one endearing quality. She is a psycho barker. This will get worse, and will show no signs of abating until she is over a year old. She's a sweet, compliant, gorgeous little puppy, but she is a loudmouth and there's nothing you can do to stop her when she gets going. How do I know this? I raised her daddy.

[AzDoggin]

Dogs are like kids - they mature at different rates. Most dogs get to maturity by 14 months or so, but different dogs move at different rates along the way - with starts and stops, regressions, major moves forward, and so on. It's not a linear thing. I'm not sure whether this question was a hypothetical, or actually did pertain to your young pup.

If this is about your pup, and you saw the parents hunt, hang in there and don't worrry - that dog will hunt.

If you want a trial champion, I hope the parents and grandparents showed FT champ lines too.

[Chukar12]

Cajun, I am a little lost about the guide dog scenario... Those dogs are hand chosen by professionals to do very specific things, and even then many of them do not make the cut, AA dogs are largely the same, I am very careful to provide a distinction between the two. I am speaking of the masses here, where tail carriage and head crank are of little concern in the finished product to the owner. I believe that a dedicated sporting dog trainer can shape the behavior of most dogs, but what of the average first time owner of a pet/hunter living on a 1/4 acre lot in Dallas that will only hunt throw down birds at the local club? Would you advise them to purchase, train and break a Miller bred pointer or a DD?

[Cajun Casey]

Cajun, I am a little lost about the guide dog scenario... Those dogs are hand chosen by professionals to do very specific things, and even then many of them do not make the cut, AA dogs are largely the same, I am very careful to provide a distinction between the two. I am speaking of the masses here, where tail carriage and head crank are of little concern in the finished product to the owner. I believe that a dedicated sporting dog trainer can shape the behavior of most dogs, but what of the average first time owner of a pet/hunter living on a 1/4 acre lot in Dallas that will only hunt throw down birds at the local club? Would you advise them to purchase, train and break a Miller bred pointer or a DD?

I'd probably tell them to get a rescue. Nice selection out there, right now. No birds, no time, no money. They are coming in daily all across the Midwest and south central areas.

[tommyboy72]

The biggest mistake I have seen with young dogs is improper socialization at a young age. I buy my dogs or get dogs given to me from field trialers that I know. Some of these young dogs or pups are still young enough to have had no ill effects on their temprament that cannot be worked through in a month or so of socialization but some of these young dogs were just left in a kennel till they were 9 or 10 months old because the owner\breeder was a check writer who paid someone else to evaluate, train, and trial his dogs for him. Many of these pups were evaluated as not fit for a trial string like did not run big enough, tail curled too far over the back, not a good enough nose, not an early enough starter, too small, not a good kennel dog, etc. Therefore they went back to the owner\breeder where they sat alone in a kennel for a few months while there was an attempt made at selling them to hunters. When the pups got to be too old or the breeder was tired of feeding them usually I was called and some of the pups I would take and make an attempt at training but some of these pups were just messed up emotionally and psychologically to the point that they could not even take the pressure from training like I do with the instinctive method which is a very low pressure method. I mean these pups could take 0 amount of pressure without crumbling, so many times I would find them good pet homes. Some of the pups turned out decent and I would start them and give them away or occasionally sell them to hunting homes. Usually I would give up on them after a couple of months and I never gave up on the hyper, spastic dogs only the soft dogs. Hyper, spastic dogs can have that energy redirected and focused into training but a soft dog that crumbles at any sign of pressure I personally never found a way to train. Some other folks might be able to work with this. I never could. In a long way I guess I am saying it depends on the problem you are having with the dog as to when or if you should give up on them.

All of that being said some trialer friends are smart enough to know that socialization is important that is why I will be whelping out a litter for a trialer friend of mine in a month or so. He knew he did not have the setup to do it so he is bringing his pregnant female to me and my family to raise for him till the pups are weaning age in exchange for part of the litter.

[Winchey]

Depends. For me if the dog is enjoying training and hunting, I will train and hunt it.

[ezzy333]

There would be a lot more happy dogs and people if some never called it "starts." By eight, certainly ten, weeks, the basic personality is evident. That's where the first cut should be made. Unfortunately, there is not a big pet demand for some sporting breeds and the egos of the breeders get in the way of drafting pups to pet only homes. I'd rather send a pup to a pet home than a home that will quit him later for a different interest. Rescue is full of dogs that didn't live up to the expectations of their owners, along with dogs whose owners didn't stay the course with training or ran out of time, money, interest, whatever.

I can't think of anything further from what actually happens with a puppy. I have seen time after time the pups that showed little at a young age grew up to be the best of the litter and some have been crowned National Champion.

What one person wants may be a failure to someone else. I have a female I picked out of a litter a few years ago because of her color. There were two that were heads and shoulders above her as trial prospects. My female turned out easily the best of the bunch in the field and as a producer. And remember I picked her from a litter I wanted a pup out of and she was the prettiest. Thats important when I have to look at them everyday.

Ezzy

[Cajun Casey]

There would be a lot more happy dogs and people if some never called it "starts." By eight, certainly ten, weeks, the basic personality is evident. That's where the first cut should be made. Unfortunately, there is not a big pet demand for some sporting breeds and the egos of the breeders get in the way of drafting pups to pet only homes. I'd rather send a pup to a pet home than a home that will quit him later for a different interest. Rescue is full of dogs that didn't live up to the expectations of their owners, along with dogs whose owners didn't stay the course with training or ran out of time, money, interest, whatever.

I can't think of anything further from what actually happens with a puppy. I have seen time after time the pups that showed little at a young age grew up to be the best of the litter and some have been crowned National Champion.

What one person wants may be a failure to someone else. I have a female I picked out of a litter a few years ago because of her color. There were two that were heads and shoulders above her as trial prospects. My female turned out easily the best of the bunch in the field and as a producer. And remember I picked her from a litter I wanted a pup out of and she was the prettiest. Thats important when I have to look at them everyday.

Ezzy

Would you care to provide some specific names? I can. Bull. They said to shoot him before Miller took him. Now, scratch a walking dog and he bleeds Fiddler because of that dog.

I don't give a hoot what they look like. I picked one because I was off the list and figured no one would want him because he was so ugly. I was right.

[ezzy333]

Now, scratch a walking dog and he bleeds Fiddler because of that dog.

So what are you trying to say? Sounds like you are agreeing but hard to tell. Sorry about your ugly dog but you should have known ugly normally stays with them for a life time. But I think we were talking hunting abilities and when do you give upon a pup. There isn't any good answer other than when you feel you are wasting your time.

Ezzy

[Cajun Casey]

Now, scratch a walking dog and he bleeds Fiddler because of that dog.

So what are you trying to say? Sounds like you are agreeing but hard to tell. Sorry about your ugly dog but you should have known ugly normally stays with them for a life time. But I think we were talking hunting abilities and when do you give upon a pup. There isn't any good answer other than when you feel you are wasting your time.

Ezzy

I'm saying it's subjective.

I like my ugly pup. Like I said, I don't care what they look like. He's a trial dog, not a model. The only thing about his appearance that concerns me is that he makes one occasionally.

[Cajun Casey]

Still waiting for those names....

Here, I'll get you started. Holiday Britt.

[rm9802]

well... im not calling it quits...i know i have a few more months before i even start any serious training...with tink...if anyone knew the story behind my purchase of this particular dog you would understand. I was just reaching out there and was trying to pick your guys brains on what to look for to maby clue me in that this one might just be a pet. As for my needs I wanting a good hunting companion..no trialing or anything like that....Oh in case you are wondering if she just turned out to a house dog then so be it..she already has my family wrapped...lol we wouldnt dump her off anywhere.

[AzDoggin]

well... im not calling it quits...i know i have a few more months before i even start any serious training...with tink...if anyone knew the story behind my purchase of this particular dog you would understand. I was just reaching out there and was trying to pick your guys brains on what to look for to maby clue me in that this one might just be a pet. As for my needs I wanting a good hunting companion..no trialing or anything like that....Oh in case you are wondering if she just turned out to a house dog then so be it..she already has my family wrapped...lol we wouldnt dump her off anywhere.

Hey rm, these threads do travel around a bit sometimes.

If you give her good socialization, lots of happy timing with exposure to birds to get her prey drive stoked, and then some decent training - she'll amaze you at how well she'll hunt, and how much she'll add to the hunt compared to hunting without a dog. To me, the key is that SHE provides the standard. You don't need to play the comparison game - it's not a requirement of owning a bird dog. Some choose to - but it's certainly not a requirement.

So my answer to your question - when to call it quits - would be never. There is no reason she can't be a good hunting companion. She may even get to be a superb hunting companion.

[Cajun Casey]

well... im not calling it quits...i know i have a few more months before i even start any serious training...with tink...if anyone knew the story behind my purchase of this particular dog you would understand. I was just reaching out there and was trying to pick your guys brains on what to look for to maby clue me in that this one might just be a pet. As for my needs I wanting a good hunting companion..no trialing or anything like that....Oh in case you are wondering if she just turned out to a house dog then so be it..she already has my family wrapped...lol we wouldnt dump her off anywhere.

Sometimes having them around other dogs helps. A recent experience I had was to sell a puppy to someone who had a young dog. His only complaint on his first dog is that she will not retrieve. My babies are natural retrievers. After two weeks of having a little demon tote her stuff around, guess who is starting to show some interest in retrieving. Unfortunately, she seems to be starting with her little buddy's head.

If you are already into the deal, then commit to a couple of years. You are on the consumer end of the deal, not the producer. It makes a difference if you are sorting pups for new homes or if you have one that you chose and feel obligated to do all you can for. You have much more time to make decisions.

[tommyboy72]

I usually try and pick the meanest and ugliest pup out of a litter myself. To me mean and ugly implies tough and I love a tough dog. Stupid? Probably, but it usually applies with people so why not dogs. You ever see a biker that looked like a male underwear model? You ever see a supermodel that looked like they could knock a person out with 1 punch?

[Cajun Casey]

I usually try and pick the meanest and ugliest pup out of a litter myself. To me mean and ugly implies tough and I love a tough dog. Stupid? Probably, but it usually applies with people so why not dogs. You ever see a biker that looked like a male underwear model? You ever see a supermodel that looked like they could knock a person out with 1 punch?

Yes on the biker, but it was a woman.

[A/C Guy]

By eight, certainly ten, weeks, the basic personality is evident. That's where the first cut should be made.

Pretty early to make a "go..no go" decision. What would you be looking for that would make a pup a no go? outside of a gross temperament or physical problem.

By 6 weeks old our puppies show interest in birds and wings. The best of the litter will track the wing by scent. By 10 weeks old, all of our puppies from each litter have shown a definite interest in all things feathered. They will track and find wings that we (or their new owners) hide. Last year, one guy emailed me to let me now that at 10 weeks old, the puppy was sleeping soundly on it's back and he opened a pack of quail wings in the room and the nose (not the noise) woke the puppy. He said it was comical seeing the nose twitch in it's sleep then the puppy woke and followed his nose straight to the guy holding the wing. By 10 or 12 weeks old, you know if the dog has potential. From there you have to decide what are your goals and plans.

[ezzy333]

I gave a pup away to an older couple for a pet when he was ten months old because he showed little interest in birds while the litter mates were all doing great. Just happened that couple moved the club house of a hunt club when they took the job of caretakers.A few months later every member that didn't have there own dog was taking him hunting because he was the best dog they had ever hunted behind. I would hate to make a decision about a pup before 6 to 8 months and occasionally they will still fool you. Seen it happen wat to many times.

Ezzy

[birddogger]

I too have seen late starters become really good dogs.

Charlie

[Wildweeds]

I've got an aquaintance that is a micromanager when it comes to dogs,He's about 30 years old,has only owned 5 dogs to date and all 5 of those dogs are still alive,he gives up really quick,he's too cheap to enlist the help of a pro who has know how and access to grounds and wild birds to run on,the guy hunts very little and isn't very successful when he does go.He's giving up on his latest prospect,she's 16 months old and he has hunted her for 36 hours total,I took this dog to South Dakota and hunted her for him,she ranged,hunted,pointed and held those points until I arrived to kill birds over her,I killed half a dozen over her and she pointed 3 times that many hens.I think there is nothing wrong with the dog but he showed up at my house last week willing to give her away for free because she didn't "Run" on ground that holds no birds,he constantly runs her "Dry" in that area,If you run puppies dry all the time they learn to think..........why run around here it's pointless.He is too cheap to buy birds to pre plant along the edges to give reason for her to run.He has also played the planted bird(pigeon) game with her enough that he has ruined her as far as planted birds goes.She cuts a foot track and runs it until she finds the bird,doesn't point it but rather scoops it up and retrieves it,Well he makes matters worse because he gets mad and corrects her.He can't correlate making an "Uh OH" into a postive thing with the retrieving.I've TOLD him countless time to get off his lazy butt and get her into wild birds and kill them for her.

He really likes and comments on how well my setters hunt and wonders how come I manage to get all "Good" ones.I explained the other day that the one dog of mine that he likes I had to hunt for 27 hours before she ever pointed a bird,That dog hunted 3 days a week for most of the season,that season I also had hunted her on three seperate one week long trips.That made for a ton of time on the ground her first season.It danged near killed me as I drove 5 1/2 hours one way to get where the birds were thick.That dog and her littermate sister I killed close to 100 birds over that first year,After that they became automatic,both were easy to break out because of all the experiance they got while hunting nasty running pheasants.

In my mind his problem is more related to him and lack of real experiance,He's very well internet read as far as dogs go but is such a micro manager of them in the field that he should duct tape his trap and follow with a shotgun.His eyes got pretty big when I told him I've owned 30 dogs and only given up on two,I currently have 4 and the rest with the exception of two that were hit by cars have died of old age.The one I gave up on was awful and didn't hunt but rather ran and ran by birds,was hard to handle,stubborn and soft all at once,the other I gave away this past hunting season to a guy who loves him,didn't meet my expectations and never would,No sense in going any further, he pointed till you flushed,but his hunting style was similar to watching grass grow or paint dry on a stick,and he was a bad barker.He also was a cryptorchird and had a twisted pelvis,which gave him a funny gait that tired him out quick(Xrays of his hips showed me this,his hips would be considered excellent according to my vet).Not the trial dog I was looking for in more than one way.I gave him away for free after I neutered him,the fellow who had never owned a pointing dog before is tickled pink with the dog,took the dog hunting 3 days after I gave him the dog and killed quail and a couple pheasants over the dog on the first outing,all pointed birds.The dog was almost 2 years old before I gave up.

I could have given up on my FC that ended up the #1 gundog some years back at the puppy stage because my pro said "Never make a trial dog but he'll be a dandy hunting dog".Trial dog wasn't the important thing for me,so I went on a bird killing bonanza with the dog.He was the easiest dog to break that next year and at 19 months old got his first broke dog placement,a fourth but that was the start of the whirlwind of winning that would take place over the next year,enough major wins to make a FC more than twice.The dog ended up being in the top ten of dogs he's handled over the course of 30+ years of training/handling.I guess the point of my last paragraph here is that even with 30 years of experiance you just never can tell what will turn into a diamond with time given some proper exposure with the right genetic code.