What Has X Taught You?

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What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:23 pm

My original reason for joining this site was to learn. It has since become a release for my inner child, please accept my apologies. That being said, the constant banter around trials v hunting and even trial format has entertainment value but it has been cause for reflection on what I feel I have learned and what has changed my behavior as it relates to dogs, dog training and hunting. I would be curious as to your experiences. Please be over 18 and under 90 to answer this, otherwise I don't believe for one second you have changed an opinion.

Some of my thoughts...
Dogs and behavior in general; classes with Rick Smith and George Hickox really brought to light the importance of patience and sequence in all my training but especially to achieve something more than average. The natural part of pointing dog behavior makes training easy to a given level. Most dogs on the ground stop there. They showed me and spurred a compulsive behavior to achieve something more specific. that compulsion has opened up a new willingness to learn by any means, reading, observing, and capturing the experiences of others through new relationships.

Field Trials; Presenting a dog is a skill like any other, the best make it look easy to keep a dog to the front. They are calm and sure when they are in a game that is 30 minutes, 1 hour, or 3 hours of sudden death. One slip up and your day is done. They taught me to be objective about my own dog, when the run is not what it should be, they stop it and pick their dog up. It gives me the opportunity to share a hobby i love with lots of people. I prefer my hunting circle small, killing things is dangerous and I don't like how many people handle guns, guiding has me jaded to folks behavior on hunting, and i lose patience with people and their dogs.

Manners; I used to believe that all wildly flushing birds were just spooky. I now have proven in the field that dogs I thought were self relocating out of necessity were pressuring birds, especially covey birds. A dog that points on first true body scent and allows me to be part of the bird process presents more opportunities. Birds are never just "out for a run" something is getting too close, too loud, and it is making them move.

Its a big world...the enjoyment of riding my horse behind dogs while hunting has me hooked on the trial format. I have spent some time with NASTRA and BDC events, enough to know that the genetics of the dogs there are just as solid as any other....but, I am fascinated by the NAVHDA thing. I have to believe that this is the most complex and comprehensive training for the hunter. I want to see more of that.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by nikegundog » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:29 pm

Please be over 18 and under 90 to answer this, otherwise I don't believe for one second you have changed an opinion.
I see your not going to let Ezzy put his 2 cents in.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by birddogger » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:55 pm

I totally agree on the NAVHDA comment. I just barely made it on your age requirement. :D

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:41 pm

Me TOO just turned 18 on the 31st of Jan. :lol:

Yeah I wish!! :lol:

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by GUNDOGS » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:49 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Please be over 18 and under 90 to answer this, otherwise I don't believe for one second you have changed an opinion.
I see your not going to let Ezzy put his 2 cents in.
NOW THATS FUNNY :lol: :lol: :lol: ...ruth
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Joe Amatulli » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:51 pm

I am very surprised that there haven’t been more posts on this thread, kind of says a lot about the amount of knowledge on this site, but I will take a shot at it.

I learned that you cannot teach a 15 year old, Birddogz, Coveyrise and Ezzy anything, although I see some hope for Ezzy.

When arguing with an idiot, make sure he is not doing the same.

If your lips are moving, you are not learning anything.

Everyone loves a winner until they get beat.

The more you argue, the less convincing you are.

No matter how old you are, and no matter how much you know, there is still much that you don’t.

You cannot force a dog to do anything they don’t want to.

There are 1000 excuses for not doing something and there is only one reason for getting something done.

One thing that I have not learned yet is how so many on this board have been able to spend so much time in front of a computer screen and know so much about dogs and hunting!

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Winchey » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:09 pm

Agree with pretty much all of that, and guilty as charged.

I have learned that arguing about dogs is good fun.

I learned who not to argue with and who to listen to, although those few wouldn't waste their time arguing with me anyways.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Hattrick » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:32 pm

Man this is funny stuff !!! Navhda is such a great place to learn you got my vote

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by ACooper » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:52 pm

I have learned that arrogance and personal attacks cause you to lose credibility regardless of how many trophies your dogs win for you.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by kninebirddog » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:36 pm

That there is very little difference between a sore looser and a poor winner.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ken Lynch » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:40 pm

I have learned to keep my mouth shut until I can achieve a high level of tact. The definition of tact that I learned is “The ability to tell your worst enemy where to go, so convincingly that he is looking forward to the trip”. :mrgreen: So far I have only been able to achieve a very low level of tact.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:49 pm

Let this topic be a lesson to the young posters out there. You can see how carefully chosen words and thought in the topic keeps things, civil, productive and on target

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Joe Amatulli » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:43 pm

Coop when you and I were braced together I told you exactly what was going to happen and you ignored me, it looks like you still have not learned anything about listening.

A few more words of knowledge:

When you brag about your dog, it’s a guarantee that they will screw up.

Confidence is very often mistaken for arrogance.

It’s easier to complain about something rather than doing something about it.

Winning and hard work go hand in hand.

Dogs will only learn what you teach them, it’s your responsibility to teach them so they can learn.

To a sore loser, all winners are sore winners.

If they are talking about you or your dog you are winning too much.

Very good Kenny, I haven't been able to achieve that either.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by kninebirddog » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:56 pm

By learnng you will teach; by teaching you will learn.

What you allow a dog/pup to do, you teach a dog/pup to do.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:32 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:I am very surprised that there haven’t been more posts on this thread, kind of says a lot about the amount of knowledge on this site, but I will take a shot at it.

I learned that you cannot teach a 15 year old, Birddogz, Coveyrise and Ezzy anything, although I see some hope for Ezzy.

When arguing with an idiot, make sure he is not doing the same.

If your lips are moving, you are not learning anything.

Everyone loves a winner until they get beat.

The more you argue, the less convincing you are.

No matter how old you are, and no matter how much you know, there is still much that you don’t.

You cannot force a dog to do anything they don’t want to.

There are 1000 excuses for not doing something and there is only one reason for getting something done.

One thing that I have not learned yet is how so many on this board have been able to spend so much time in front of a computer screen and know so much about dogs and hunting!
I have such a hard time learning. I guess 2 Doctorates earned points to that. LOL I could say the same for you. I teach for a living, and practiced as a physician for ten years before that. I have never seen a concentration of people who simply are unable to look at some thing from a different perspective. If you can't get along with Coop, you are doing something wrong.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by JKP » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:47 pm

Manners; I used to believe that all wildly flushing birds were just spooky. I now have proven in the field that dogs I thought were self relocating out of necessity were pressuring birds, especially covey birds. A dog that points on first true body scent and allows me to be part of the bird process presents more opportunities. Birds are never just "out for a run" something is getting too close, too loud, and it is making them move.
Agree in part...but a dog that points on first body scent on a running cockbird will not produce a shootable bird. Cockbirds will often hear you and your dog long before you are in scenting range (heck, I close the truck door gently!!) and a sharpie sentinel will see your dog long before it gets there. I'd think that over again....

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Coveyrise64 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:54 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Coop when you and I were braced together I told you exactly what was going to happen and you ignored me, it looks like you still have not learned anything about listening.

A few more words of knowledge:

When you brag about your dog, it’s a guarantee that they will screw up.

Confidence is very often mistaken for arrogance.

It’s easier to complain about something rather than doing something about it.

Winning and hard work go hand in hand.

Dogs will only learn what you teach them, it’s your responsibility to teach them so they can learn.

To a sore loser, all winners are sore winners.

If they are talking about you or your dog you are winning too much.

Very good Kenny, I haven't been able to achieve that either.
Just confirms my observations when one of the elite will come wallow with the pigs.....So much for your wisdom. :roll:

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:02 pm

I will acquiesce the pheasant to you, though I will caveat it with my belief that too many use it as an excuse for a poorly trained dog, and my sharp-tail experience is limited...but JKP I am steadfast on quail, Huns and Chukars, Too many dogs are conditioned to throw downs and releasers, are allowed to be sight pointing aficionados, take liberties in their bird work due to poor manners on steadiness, one step leads to the next, so on and so forth...

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by ACooper » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:04 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Coop when you and I were braced together I told you exactly what was going to happen and you ignored me, it looks like you still have not learned anything about listening.

A few more words of knowledge:

When you brag about your dog, it’s a guarantee that they will screw up.

Confidence is very often mistaken for arrogance.

It’s easier to complain about something rather than doing something about it.

Winning and hard work go hand in hand.

Dogs will only learn what you teach them, it’s your responsibility to teach them so they can learn.

To a sore loser, all winners are sore winners.

If they are talking about you or your dog you are winning too much.

Very good Kenny, I haven't been able to achieve that either.
I believe you have me confused with someone else, we have not been braced together.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:17 pm

JKP wrote:
Manners; I used to believe that all wildly flushing birds were just spooky. I now have proven in the field that dogs I thought were self relocating out of necessity were pressuring birds, especially covey birds. A dog that points on first true body scent and allows me to be part of the bird process presents more opportunities. Birds are never just "out for a run" something is getting too close, too loud, and it is making them move.
Agree in part...but a dog that points on first body scent on a running cockbird will not produce a shootable bird. Cockbirds will often hear you and your dog long before you are in scenting range (heck, I close the truck door gently!!) and a sharpie sentinel will see your dog long before it gets there. I'd think that over again....
You are exactly right. Now, Chukar is right about quail though. I think the key is to have a dog hunt wild birds, and they won't develop bad habits for that species. A pheasant dog will learn the circle ahead and pin with practice. Quail and grouse will teach the dog not to crowd too much. Even with a lot of experience dogs will mess up now and again. I always love the first 2-3 snows. That is when pay back is a &*# for the running pheasants.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:38 pm

Birddogz wrote:
Joe Amatulli wrote:I am very surprised that there haven’t been more posts on this thread, kind of says a lot about the amount of knowledge on this site, but I will take a shot at it.

I learned that you cannot teach a 15 year old, Birddogz, Coveyrise and Ezzy anything, although I see some hope for Ezzy.

When arguing with an idiot, make sure he is not doing the same.

If your lips are moving, you are not learning anything.

Everyone loves a winner until they get beat.

The more you argue, the less convincing you are.

No matter how old you are, and no matter how much you know, there is still much that you don’t.

You cannot force a dog to do anything they don’t want to.

There are 1000 excuses for not doing something and there is only one reason for getting something done.

One thing that I have not learned yet is how so many on this board have been able to spend so much time in front of a computer screen and know so much about dogs and hunting!
I have such a hard time learning. I guess 2 Doctorates earned points to that. LOL I could say the same for you. I teach for a living, and practiced as a physician for ten years before that. I have never seen a concentration of people who simply are unable to look at some thing from a different perspective. If you can't get along with Coop, you are doing something wrong.

That is pretty funny stuff there Birddogz.

Some of the most brickheaded, tunnel visioned people I know are physicians. Just ask any practicing pharmacist. Of course if you don't agree with the physician, you are an idiot, because, after all they are doctors, and they know everything. That is why so many people die from drug interactions caused by a physician prescribing multiple drugs that should not be adminstered together. But physicians know it all.

From my observations on internet chat boards, it seems that there is another group of individuals that know just how things should be done and are not shy about pronouncing their "knowledge" to others. A goodly number of those who have German versatile dogs and especially those who have german dogs "from the old sod" Like DD's and DK's tend to be "experts and look down their noses at the more plebian members of the hunting community who just don't understand.

I don't have quite the education that you have...only a Masters degree in Analytical Chemistry and an MBA in industrial Relations. I only ran one of the two stability testing laboratories for the(at that time) fourth largest pharmaceutical manufacturer in the world for about a dozen years. I only had twenty chemists and four technicians reporting to me. I guess I''m just not too bright.


What has all that education to do with training a bird dog?? Almost nothing.

When I occasionally start to get uppity and arrogant, I think of Delmar Smith. He is, arguably, one of the most gifted dog trainers alive and has taught hundreds of folks how to train dogs. Those hundreds have trained thousands.

I sincerely doubt that he has more than a high shool education and he is among the best there is and among the best there ever will be.

So...tell us again just how smart and educated you are. I'm sure others on this board are just as impressed as I am. Or not.

And for what it is worth, Joe Amatulli is a gifted trainer and a fierce competitor who has proved, beyond a shadow of doubt that he knows how to get the absolute best out of a dog and to show it to others. He has my respect both as a competitor and a sportsman.

I tried to look up what Birddogz has done. Couldn't find a single thing. Strange.

RayG
Last edited by RayGubernat on Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by kbshorthairs » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 pm

I never knew we were blessed with such a braintrust here on GDF. I might have to start paying closer attention. :D :D :D

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:58 pm

kbshorthairs wrote:I never knew we were blessed with such a braintrust here on GDF. I might have to start paying closer attention. :D :D :D
KB -

I ain't that smart. Just a kid that liked to see what happened when you mixed things together, especially if they burst into flames or went BANG. I did learn, fairly quickly, it was best to do that stuff outdoors. :D :D

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Winchey » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:59 am

I am one of those who have a german versatile breed out of german imports and I don't understand. I don't hunt in Germany. I still don't know the difference between a DD and a GWP, a good dog is a good dog is a good dog. I don't know why you would want a DK if you want to horseback trial and a GSP will do it better. Or why anyone would care if you went that route.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:22 am

RayGubernat wrote:quote="Birddogz"]
Joe Amatulli wrote:I am very surprised that there haven’t been more posts on this thread, kind of says a lot about the amount of knowledge on this site, but I will take a shot at it.

I learned that you cannot teach a 15 year old, Birddogz, Coveyrise and Ezzy anything, although I see some hope for Ezzy.

When arguing with an idiot, make sure he is not doing the same.

If your lips are moving, you are not learning anything.

Everyone loves a winner until they get beat.

The more you argue, the less convincing you are.

No matter how old you are, and no matter how much you know, there is still much that you don’t.

You cannot force a dog to do anything they don’t want to.

There are 1000 excuses for not doing something and there is only one reason for getting something done.

One thing that I have not learned yet is how so many on this board have been able to spend so much time in front of a computer screen and know so much about dogs and hunting!
I have such a hard time learning. I guess 2 Doctorates earned points to that. LOL I could say the same for you. I teach for a living, and practiced as a physician for ten years before that. I have never seen a concentration of people who simply are unable to look at some thing from a different perspective. If you can't get along with Coop, you are doing something wrong.
That is pretty funny stuff there Birddogz.

Some of the most brickheaded, tunnel visioned people I know are physicians. Just ask any practicing pharmacist. Of course if you don't agree with the physician, you are an idiot, because, after all they are doctors, and they know everything. That is why so many people die from drug interactions caused by a physician prescribing multiple drugs that should not be adminstered together. But physicians know it all.

From my observations on internet chat boards, it seems that there is another group of individuals that know just how things should be done and are not shy about pronouncing their "knowledge" to others. A goodly number of those who have German versatile dogs and especially those who have german dogs "from the old sod" Like DD's and DK's tend to be "experts and look down their noses at the more plebian members of the hunting community who just don't understand.

I don't have quite the education that you have...only a Masters degree in Analytical Chemistry and an MBA in industrial Relations. I only ran one of the two stability testing laboratories for the(at that time) fourth largest pharmaceutical manufacturer in the world for about a dozen years. I only had twenty chemists and four technicians reporting to me. I guess I''m just not too bright.


What has all that education to do with training a bird dog?? Almost nothing.

When I occasionally start to get uppity and arrogant, I think of Delmar Smith. He is, arguably, one of the most gifted dog trainers alive and has taught hundreds of folks how to train dogs. Those hundreds have trained thousands.

I sincerely doubt that he has more than a high shool education and he is among the best there is and among the best there ever will be.

So...tell us again just how smart and educated you are. I'm sure others on this board are just as impressed as I am. Or not.

And for what it is worth, Joe Amatulli is a gifted trainer and a fierce competitor who has proved, beyond a shadow of doubt that he knows how to get the absolute best out of a dog and to show it to others. He has my respect both as a competitor and a sportsman.

I tried to look up what Birddogz has done. Couldn't find a single thing. Strange.

RayG

IThere you go again. Those FT placements are so important. :roll: I bet you a nickel I harvest more game than Joe does. So what?
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Joe Amatulli » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:30 am

Well Ray I didn’t know you cared, but thanks for the testimonial. This thread is for fun and not serous let’s keep it that way.

A few more:

All dogs can speak, but not all trainers can hear.

A good trainer can take a good dog and turn them into a great dog, but a great trainer can take a good dog and turn them into a legend.

Knowledge breeds success and success breeds knowledge.

Be silent and yee shall be heard.

Common scents may not be common, but dog scents is even more uncommon.

There is no question that wild birds will make a good dog into a great dog, but please refer to above for more information.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Joe Amatulli » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:24 am

KILLL!!!!!!!KILLLL!!!!!!!!!!!KILLLLLL I’m on my desk now KILLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!! Birddogz one day you will grow up and realize that the hunt is what it’s all about not the killing. This is the Gun Dog Forum, not the kill all you can forum. I’m getting bored hearing the same old arguments, I think I need to reread what I posted and follow it.

Chukar you can step in any time now!

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:41 am

Birddogz wrote:

"There you go again. Those FT placements are so important. I bet you a nickel I harvest more game than Joe does. So what?""

Can you say "non sequitur??"

What does the amount of game harvested have to do with the quality of the dog involved? Possibly nothing at all.

Lots of folks harvest tons of game. In North and South Dakota, I understand that the preferred method of "hunting" pheasnat is to drive them into blocking gunners so that the birds will flush over the blocvkers, out the sides, where there are more gunners standing or back over the beaters. Dogs need not be employed and most often if there are dogs used inis type operation are retrievers or flushers or Heinz 57's.

Field trials are not important to you because you choose not to compete. I understand that.

I bet you that same nickel that I have heard the "I bet I kill more birds..." song at least a hundred times from a hundred different folks. Funny thing is, most of them were convinced that that meant something to someone else. We won't get in to what I thought of a number of their dogs when I did see them in action. I'll just say that some were pretty nice dogs...but some were not. The amount of game harvested had more to do with opportunity than with the quality of the dogflesh.

Remember the story about ground swatting the covey of quail?? It is easy to fill a bag, if that is what you are about. Most grouse hunters don't hunt with dogs. They use a .22 and shoot from a vehicle. They don't call pheasants ditch parrots for nothing. Riding the back roads with a single shot 12 ga. is a very effective way of baggng pheasants if one is only interested in filling a bag limit.

I say again...talk is cheap... Take your worldbeater dogs and enter them in a 30 minute stake or Hunt Test somewhere. I don't care if it is AF, AKC, NSTRA, NAVHDA, NAHRA or Solms.
Then get back to us and tell us how you did when someone besides you was watching. Bet you that same nickel...well you know where this one is going.

Birddogz, you are so hopelessly wrapped around your own axles that would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Enjoy your sport.

RayG

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by northern cajun » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:26 am

Let me jump in here for just a tad.

I'll say this if Joe A. let me (I am not that good a hunter) take Hannah or Millie or Shelby hunting for a season I am pretty sure I would be in better shape from carrying all the game I would harvest. :mrgreen:
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by brad27 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:28 am

Does he always derail threads like this?

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:57 am

Ray ..gees I thought a truck was the weapon of choice for ditch parrots Or in my dad's case a Prius :roll:

Back to Joe's Post

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:13 am

Joe Amatulli wrote:KILLL!!!!!!!KILLLL!!!!!!!!!!!KILLLLLL I’m on my desk now KILLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!! Birddogz one day you will grow up and realize that the hunt is what it’s all about not the killing. This is the Gun Dog Forum, not the kill all you can forum. I’m getting bored hearing the same old arguments, I think I need to reread what I posted and follow it.

Chukar you can step in any time now!

Think this covers the subject very well

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:40 am

by Joe Amatulli
Chukar you can step in any time now!
Are you kidding me? I am now involved in an argument with a chemist, a doctor, a professor and two guys with impeccable bird dog credentials...and here I sit one high school credit away from channel surfing all day and yelling at the TV while watching episodes of "16 and Pregnant."

With all kidding aside, I come fom an upbringing that would not have understood a field trial if it was held in the backyard. Hunting and training dogs was a natural flow with the end game being the harvesting of as much game as possible. That life began, well...as long ago as I can remember. It became a passion for me as did big game hunting and bass fishing. While I shot some record book animals through the years, I never considered going through the process of having them recorded. Yet, with bass fishing I fiercely wanted to beat the best, I wanted the trophy, the checks, to see my name in magazines. As a side bar, I turned out a mediocre bass fisherman in real competition, and I am ok with that.

Hunting dogs have been developed to help harvest game, and depending on the geography, decade or century you reside in, that has varying levels of necessity and by proxy acceptance. I cast aside the titles hunter or field trialer for my purposes. I am focused on the trainer. I have learned in business that measuring and acknowledging the parts and pieces in a process is what brings the best results. Those that measure things only by the bottom line are slaves to external factors whether they be good or bad.

These arguments will never be untangled, and one of us should never begrudge the opinion of another, but we do have every right to question the credentials of those who would give advice and publish their suppositions. Delmar Smith and his family, the Tracy Clan, George Hickox, and even are west coast brittany pro Paul Doiron touch hundreds of dogs per year. They understand the language of dogs and how to shape behaviors on a large scale and while they aren't here posting their knowledge those who share their background and experience with numerous dogs without the constraints of emotion for a dog have the best possibility of helping another. At least in practical application.

I do not personally care for competition that involves killing. I never have. However, I cannot begrudge those or judge them when they see things differently than I do. I do find people that lead or an extend an argument beyond the surface level without knowledge and experience of both sides to be without credibility, and besides that they are irritating. For me, training a hunting dog is not hard by the standards I have set for most of my life...but to train a high level trial dog, and or maybe someday one of those intergalactic, international, UV protected test champion dogs, and oh yeah...a top flusher or retriever would be fun and it would mean something to me. So that is why I am here to seek knowledge from those who know more, and kill some time while my conference call is on mute.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:46 am

Ray, you say the amount of game you harvest means nothing. Spoken like a true hunter. :wink: My point is hunting is a much better test of a bird dog then Fting. You seem to want to give some kind of value to FTing and not hunting. Just isn't logical. In a FT there are no wild birds (most times) there are no dogs retreiving and hunting dead. The funniest part is the fact that FTs are trying to create hunting scenarios. So, why not give credit to what YOUR sport is trying to recreate?

Now, you have some scientific background, so if you use your head you will be able to follow me. Under scientific method there can be only one variable that changes. If there are more than one variable changing, it is junk science. You have dogs as the changing variables. You then have different judges at different events. Each judge has his own preferences in what he/she likes. That is bias. Also causes junk science. Now, to make it even worse there are no clear winners. It is like judges in the olympics judging figure skating. The Russian judge doesn't like the American, and so on and so forth.

There are times when a dog that finds 3 birds will beat a dog that has 5 finds. Makes no sense. I understand that the judge may have seen flaws in the dog that found 5 birds, but so what. That is like awarding Georgetown the national championship because Villanova wasn't as good of a team in 1985. There can be no underdog wins? If a dog finds more birds, he should win. Even if he got lucky.

Lastly, hunting has the same for all. Complete randomness of wild birds. No human intervention. Mother nature has no agenda. A Wild rooster doesn't say, "Hmm I like this guy better than this guy. I'll let him shoot me." It is hunter and dog against Mother nature and the elements. No politics, just reality. :D


I have no trouble with people enjoying FTs. They have provided a great deal to genetics. Just don't give them too much importance. Hunting is the ultimate test. FTs are just "silly games." That is a direct quote fro Len Forbush. A former trialer. :wink:
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by birddogger » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:54 am

FWIW, when I was growing up and game was plentiful around here, I probably killed more quail, rabbits and squirrels without dogs than I ever have with dogs. It was pretty important back then, if we wanted some meat for supper. As I got older and I didn't have to worry about meat for supper, the number of kills was not as important. I learned to appreciate good dog work, and a day out with a good friend or two. When I ran beagles and would jump a rabbit under my feet, I would not shoot because I wanted to watch and listen to the dogs do their thing. Sometimes I got the rabbit and sometimes I didn't. I still like to harvest game and put meat on the table, but it is just not as important as enjoying the dogs and friends.

BTW, I still squirrel hunt without a dog and had fried squirrel and biscuits and gravy for supper last night. :D

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:08 am

birddogger wrote:FWIW, when I was growing up and game was plentiful around here, I probably killed more quail, rabbits and squirrels without dogs than I ever have with dogs. It was pretty important back then, if we wanted some meat for supper. As I got older and I didn't have to worry about meat for supper, the number of kills was not as important. I learned to appreciate good dog work, and a day out with a good friend or two. When I ran beagles and would jump a rabbit under my feet, I would not shoot because I wanted to watch and listen to the dogs do their thing. Sometimes I got the rabbit and sometimes I didn't. I still like to harvest game and put meat on the table, but it is just not as important as enjoying the dogs and friends.

BTW, I still squirrel hunt without a dog and had fried squirrel and biscuits and gravy for supper last night. :D

Charlie
I agree with everything you wrote. I enjoy dog work on wild birds while hunting. I irarely shoot a bird my dogs have not pointed. I too would run beagles on rabbits. I would rather kill one over a race. A dog should increase your odds when hunting though. That is their job.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by birddogger » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:14 am

I agree with everything you wrote. I enjoy dog work on wild birds while hunting. I irarely shoot a bird my dogs have not pointed. I too would run beagles on rabbits. I would rather kill one over a race. A dog should increase your odds when hunting though. That is their job.
That is true.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by nikegundog » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:32 pm

I've been on the GDF for only about 3 weeks, what I've been taught at this point is if I ask someone a direct question I always get a polite response, but just by reading through threads I get offended more often than not. When people attack someone else they may be attacking a whole group of people that aren't so vocal. I'm a hunter and I have made bets during hunts (just as I have during fishing), I know that people don't always judge a trip by the amount they kill, but when the game population is down I don't see as many people hunting, I also have noticed that there is a correlation between the amount of birds shot and the amount of photos taken. For me I would rather see my dog work 7 hens than to bring home 2 roosters, but my wife feels otherwise. I know their are a lot of valuable people on this site with a vast wealth of training knowledge that I need, and because of this I will put up with the negatives.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:01 pm

Nike, bird dogs have grown to a complicated culture whether we like the way that sounds or not it is true. Try hard not to be offended when one member addresses another as you may not recognize history, I sometimes understand better when I research a particular members posts. I don't recall a single thread started or based on the premise that we as hunters are looked down upon by the trial community; I have however seen arguments ensue from a hunter's perspective where they demand explanation and ultimate change in a field trialer’s perspective and manner of approach. I venture that most of the trialer's and testers are hunters as well which hi-lights that most of us on here hunt. We have that perspective in common. I shot a hundred or so game birds in 2010, in 30 or so days in the field, I take a lot of pictures and though it isn't done consciously a lot more of them are dogs on point than of dead birds. If that makes me less a hunter in anybody's eyes, well isn't that a them issue more than a me issue?


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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:10 pm

The comments that get to hunters are when a FT guy will ask ...What have you done? As if a FT is more superior to a hunter. It is a catch 22. If a hunter says I kill 120 roosters a year, the comment is almost always.."It shouldn't be about the kill." "You must live where there are a lot of birds, your dogs could still be junk." So there is no way a hunter can know about a quality dog unless he has FTed and won. I think this premise is ridiculous, and so do many other hunters. It is a slight, an arrogance of.,."I know more than you do, about dogs, I FT." :wink:
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by ACooper » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:14 pm

Now this is just a guess but I would bet that less than 10% of hunters are also participate in FT/HT/Navhda. But would also guess that 95% FT/Navhda/HT are also hunters. I cant say that I haven't fanned the flames at times. But most of us are on the same team but continually argue semantics. But I cant disagree that a good old internet argument isn't fun from time to time! :lol:

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by brad27 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:15 pm

The comments that get to hunters are when a FT guy will ask ...What have you done? As if a FT is more superior to a hunter. It is a catch 22. If a hunter says I kill 120 roosters a year, the comment is almost always.."It shouldn't be about the kill." "You must live where there are a lot of birds, your dogs could still be junk." So there is no way a hunter can know about a quality dog unless he has FTed and won. I think this premise is ridiculous, and so do many other hunters. It is a slight, an arrogance of.,."I know more than you do, about dogs, I FT."
yawn.................

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:20 pm

by Birddogz
My point is hunting is a much better test of a bird dog then Fting
Hunting is the ultimate test
Where do you see these type of statements from the other camp?
I hunt and trial I don't make them.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:23 pm

You disagree? Hunting is the city. FTing is a building in a city. FTing is trying to imitate hunting. Hunting is the ultimate test of a gundog. I don't see how you would argue that point? That is common knowledge.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:27 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote: All dogs can speak, but not all trainers can hear.
Amen to this!! So many claim that they are great trainers but they really can't hear/see what the dog is trying to tell them.

One of the best trainers that I know is deaf but can "hear" what the dogs are telling him.

Also beware of the trainers who are loud in both their words and actions. Those are usually the ones that cannot hear what the dogs are trying to tell them......
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:28 pm

Birddogz,
Which is the better test of a hunting dog?

Chukar Hunting?
Grouse?
Pheasants?
Bobwhites?
Ptarmagins?

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:41 pm

One of the best trainers that I know is deaf but can "hear" what the dogs are telling him.
..and sometimes if we ask thoughtfully about how to have a dog do something; he is kind enough to help on this very site...
look at his answers and you learn about bird dogs

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:44 pm

They are all great tests. My point is that actual hunting of wild birds is what dogs have been bred for for 500 years and more. Not a game trying to simulate a hunt. I have no prejudice in bird hunting. All bird hunting is great. My favorite would be RG just because they are so challenging to the shooter. When a grouse is downed, it makes me even more happy.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:49 pm

So the dogs and the people hunt differently?
Which type is FTing trying to imitate?

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:52 pm

Birddogz wrote:You disagree? Hunting is the city. FTing is a building in a city. FTing is trying to imitate hunting. Hunting is the ultimate test of a gundog. I don't see how you would argue that point? That is common knowledge.

It seems to me that this whole argument is based on a false premis. Hunting and field trialing are sports that most of us do with dogs. If we are going to keep debating this then we have to get back to debating about the dogs and not the killing, winning, or the people. It's about the dogs. How many you kill has nothing to do with it, what kind of birds or how "wild" they are has nothing to do with it , and how many trials you win has nothing to do with it, since none of those things apply to both sides. The only thing you can argue is the quality of the dogs. And if you find that impossible then we should just drop the whole comparison and move on to something worth arguing.

That is what I have learned.

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