A Hired Trainer and A Pups Age?

[Onk]

Went to the Outdoor and Sport Show in KC a couple of weeks back and talked with alot of differant dog people. From the Brittany Club People, Dog Food peeps, Hunting preserve folks and Dog trainers. Joined the Brittany Club, chose not to feed the food, selected a hunting preserve not far from home to use one day and just today looked at the dog trainers information again. He wants to start with my pup at the age of 4 months,( I know way too young, pup needs to be a pup), but he says I will be coming to his place to shoot birds over my dog by the time he is 6 months old. This is puzzling to me because of the info I have got from this forum and I was just wondering if this trainer is in the norm as far as "for hire trainers" go, or is he way rushing the pups he trains.

[ezzy333]

Sounds like he is training robotic hunting dogs instead of developing independant thinking bird dogs. My advice is steer clear not that what he is doing is wrong but I don't like the product he is creating.

Ezzy

[Chukar12]

I don't believe that is the norm. At the very least i would have this trainer refute the published professionals who advise against "breaking" too early. Now, there may be wiggle room in what he or she tells you the dog will be doing in two months. I believe to break a dog you have to take a little something out of them, and that is dangerous before maturity puts it all in them.

[Karen]

My trainer wants them between a year and 15 months.

[volraider]

DELETE

[Big Dave]

If you are in Trenton you need to go see Ike and talk hunting dogs. Heck he has feed, shells, guns and certainly years of experience.

[Dave Quindt]

Based on what you posted, the timing is consistent with the approach my pro uses. Get the pups in at 4-5 months and get him started in a puppy course. By 6 months, it's pretty common to kill some birds over the pup. Nothing you posted said anything about the dog being steady or broke at 6 months; just being ready to have some birds killed over him.

With the use of the right techniques there's no reason why a well bred dog can't be fully broke and FF'ed by 12 months of age; then again, I've seen it done a few hundred times.

JMO,
Dave

[snips]

I like pups at 6-7 months for puppy training...Then a yr -14 months for formal training...It never hurts to expose pups to birds younger, I just like them mature enough to handle the training kennel and away from home so to speek....

[kbshorthairs]

I agree with Dave.......I would definitely expose the pup that age to birds and I shot tons of birds over my six month old pup this fall. Breaking the dog to be steady to wing and shot is another story.

[thunderhead]

The original post said nothing about the puppy being broke by 6 months, just that you would be shooting birds over the pup at 6 months. I do start pups young and draw out and develop the instincts and prey drive. I have had many pups that were hunting machines by the time they were 6 months. I don't know anything about the trainer that was mentioned and his methods. I am just saying you can start with a young pup and progress them along at there own pace and have a pretty advance level of performance by the time the pup is a year old. You should go to the trainers place and watch some of his sessions with young dogs. Then you can see just what he is doing with them during a training session.

[ezzy333]

The original post said nothing about the puppy being broke by 6 months, just that you would be shooting birds over the pup at 6 months. I do start pups young and draw out and develop the instincts and prey drive. I have had many pups that were hunting machines by the time they were 6 months. I don't know anything about the trainer that was mentioned and his methods. I am just saying you can start with a young pup and progress them along at there own pace and have a pretty advance level of performance by the time the pup is a year old. You should go to the trainers place and watch some of his sessions with young dogs. Then you can see just what he is doing with them during a training session.

I think the larger question is what do you want the trainer to do with your pup. I know I don't want to spend that kind of money having someone else introduce a bird or a gun when Anyone can do that with little effort. time, or expense. What I do want is a triner to provide something I can't or something I am having trouble teaching. Then it is money well spent. Otherwise you are just wanting someone else to raise the pup and it probably would have been more cost effective to buy a started or finished dog.

JMO

Al

[kninebirddog]

There are quit a few Top Brittany trainers that like to get the pups when they are young mostly about the 6 months age to get them properly introduced to the field and the birds and the guns.
I know Paul Doiron likes to get pups at about 6 months old specially if they are going to be campaigned on his string and they are far from robotic and those that make his program are proven time and time in the field. When you get your ABC mag you will see his name a bunch handling dogs to placements and wins on the west coast circuit

[ezzy333]

There are quit a few Top Brittany trainers that like to get the pups when they are young mostly about the 6 months age to get them properly introduced to the field and the birds and the guns.
I know Paul Doiron likes to get pups at about 6 months old specially if they are going to be campaigned on his string and they are far from robotic and those that make his program are proven time and time in the field. When you get your ABC mag you will see his name a bunch handling dogs to placements and wins on the west coast circuit

I know a couple around here that like to have them at any age as it is 500 dollars in there pocket each month and they can use the income. Many use the same excuse as Paul is but too prove the point not a single one of them turn down a dog of any age and everyone will campaign them if you pay the bill and many of them are winning. However I haven't seen it as a common thing in this part of the country but probbly because most of the trainers have a full string of dogs and more when it is time to run them in the trials.

Ezzy

[kninebirddog]

There are quit a few Top Brittany trainers that like to get the pups when they are young mostly about the 6 months age to get them properly introduced to the field and the birds and the guns.
I know Paul Doiron likes to get pups at about 6 months old specially if they are going to be campaigned on his string and they are far from robotic and those that make his program are proven time and time in the field. When you get your ABC mag you will see his name a bunch handling dogs to placements and wins on the west coast circuit

I know a couple around here that like to have them at any age as it is 500 dollars in there pocket each month and they can use the income. Many use the same excuse as Paul is but too prove the point not a single one of them turn down a dog of any age and everyone will campaign them if you pay the bill and many of them are winning. However I haven't seen it as a common thing in this part of the country but probbly because most of the trainers have a full string of dogs and more when it is time to run them in the trials.

Ezzy

Ezzy so what there are many people who realize that they do not have the time nor the outside resources to getting a young dog started on the right paw so to speak so they seek someone with experience to do this. Some people like to have things done right not just fly around by the seats of their pants and stumble into a good thing here and there.
Paul and Peggy are straight with their clients and will not want to waste their clients resources on a dog that isn't going to be what the client wants.
Can't say for all training programs out there but we are the same way..Rather let a client know up front what their dog is or isn't doing and let them make the choice of what they want to do from there

Sure there are those people who will take a persons money and lie to them all along sadly we get to see some of the upset owners on the boards when it happens.

So making blanket statements about different programs out there only proves to hurt the honest hard workers who are offering a service that a client wants

[ezzy333]

Knine,

I made no statement other than to answer the OP. And my answer was I wouldn't do it. Still wouldn't but you or any one that thinks its a good deaL is welcome to.

Sounds like he is training robotic hunting dogs instead of developing independant thinking bird dogs. My advice is steer clear not that what he is doing is wrong but I don't like the product he is creating.

Don't believe this was a blanket sttement or was really out of line. I will admit there is training to be done at that age but it isn't what I would pay a trainer to do and I doubt very much if you would either.

Ezzy

[Dave Quindt]

I think the larger question is what do you want the trainer to do with your pup. I know I don't want to spend that kind of money having someone else introduce a bird or a gun when Anyone can do that with little effort. time, or expense. What I do want is a triner to provide something I can't or something I am having trouble teaching. Then it is money well spent. Otherwise you are just wanting someone else to raise the pup and it probably would have been more cost effective to buy a started or finished dog.

JMO

Al

Had a long response, but managed to loose it, so let me just say this....

All of that is fine and good for someone like you, but pretty meaningless for a newbie who doesn't have the experience or equipment to make for an efficient and effective training experience. Having seen lots of pups screwed up by well-meaning newbies I strongly prefer to see a pro involved with bird and gun introduction. The problem with newbies (and I was very guilty of it) is that they lack the experience to "quit while you're ahead" and fall into the "more = better" trap. Having that "voice of reason" watching over the dog is always a good thing.

It's very rare for a newbie to be able to become an effective trainer with his first (or second or third) dog without making some pretty big mistakes, at the expense of the dog. IMO, it's always best for a pro to be involved with a newbie, even if it's just on a seminar-basis, as usually problems can be avoided before they happen, which is in the best interest of the dog.

JMO,
Dave

[ezzy333]

it's always best for a pro to be involved with a newbie, even if it's just on a seminar-basis, as usually problems can be avoided before they happen, which is in the best interest of the dog.

Dave, I agree with this but might leave out the word pro as a requirement. Think I would use the word experienced but it is always good to have someone to lead or guide you.

Ezzy

[Vman]

I haven`t read every post here but I would like to address a couple of the comments here.

First, as mentioned, I don`t think the trainer or customer is expecting a broke dog at 6mo. as others have mentioned.

Ezzy wrote

I think the larger question is what do you want the trainer to do with your pup. I know I don't want to spend that kind of money having someone else introduce a bird or a gun when Anyone can do that with little effort. time, or expense. What I do want is a triner to provide something I can't or something I am having trouble teaching. Then it is money well spent. Otherwise you are just wanting someone else to raise the pup and it probably would have been more cost effective to buy a started or finished dog.

Ezzy, that is you. You are an experienced dog man. But many, if not the majority of first time Pointing dog owners don`t have your knowledge. The owner of this dog we are talking about must have reservations about his training knowledge. That is a good thing. That is much better than to have a guy that read a book and thinks he can train his dog, or read how on the internet.
By sending this pup to the trainer{providing he is good and honest} not only is the pup starting out on the right foot, so is the owner. A good trainer will take that pup and get him revved up on birds. He will properly introduce gunfire. He will let the pup run and if the pup has the wheels he will let him roll. Something the new owner would be afraid to do. The trainer will work on or polish known commands. Clean it up if you will. If the weather allows, the trainer may get the pup into water. This is something I always try and do, Make water fun. Either retrieving or chasing a duck around. Really builds desire and confidence.
While at the trainers the pup will get socialized with other dogs. He will learn how to fit in. He will learn to obey a different person. He will learn that there is life with no bed to sleep on. He will learn what a chain gang is. He will learn that every time he gets loaded into the truck he is going to see birds and this is going to be fun. He will learn that barking his head off will not get him attention or get him out of the kennel or off the chain. He will be exposed to horses and ATVs. Things that we have all seen NOT DONE at a Hunt test or trial.
Now, the above is what I do with youngsters. I call it my puppy program. It is VERY popular and it is work that I thoroughly
enjoy. I will get all this done in two weeks. I am not taking the pup for months to get this done. It takes two weeks here unless weather gets in my way. It costs $300 plus birds killed. It is the best money the new owner will ever spend.
When the owner picks the pup up, I will take them to the fields and show off his dog. I want him to see an excited pup that wants to go find birds. I will be able to shoot the bird if the pup holds his point for me. Most do but some may not. The owner will get to see the pup retrieve, or not retrieve. But at least he knows where the pup stands. In most cases I am providing a pup that the owner can take hunting, but I warn them not too do anything stupid.
Before they leave I know where the dog is at. I know his strong suits and his weak. I can instruct the owner what the pup needs next and either they can do it or bring the dog back in a couple of months and I will do it. It is their choice. Some come back and others I may never see again. But I have never had an unsatisfied customer to my knowledge. Most are impressed and tell others. I have many repeat owners.
I am teaching the owner just as much as I am teaching the pup. I instruct the owner on how to plant birds and how to use the wind for training and hunting. I instruct them on when it is OK to shoot and when to let it go. I want them to do things correctly and in the proper order.
This helps eliminating the need to "FIX" something. It also gives the owner a chance to make acquaintance with a trainer before they screw up the dog not just after, and then I have this confused dog I have to straighten out, and that will cost at least twice what the puppy camp costs and usually more.
I know there are some shysters out there. I know of a couple of trainers that want the dog for two months before they even begin training. Also the trialers that have a string of dogs, but as you say, will never turn one down. That is the stuff that owners need to watch out for. Avoid them, they are only concerned about the money.
For anyone that is new to this sport and is expecting their first or second or changing breeds, finding a reputable trainer for your pup is one of the smartest things you can do. It does not make you a bad owner. It is the first step in having that dog of a lifetime, and becoming a good owner/trainer for your dog.

[Chukar12]

I think this post falls into the limited category of educational for the op v. the more popular entertainment for the rest of us. He or she has been given many points of view and the right questions to ask so that realistic expectations can be set with or without the trainer. I for one in my original response was careful to state that there is wiggle room or an unknown in the answer because there is not enough clarity to respond wholly. Dave mentions a broke dog at a year, but the original poster doesn't mention that time frame, it is realistic to intro birds and shoot some at six months but I would emphatically state that you have huge risk applying true broke pressure at that age. Can it work out? Sure...but not for a finished dog that I would want to look at. IMO. That being said, if he or she is using a pro in a manner that Dave or V Man describes for puppies and the person is reoutable, I just don't think a new person can go wrong using whatever resources they can possibly afford. I spend more dollars than I care to admit trying to steal ideas and experience from folks who know.

As a matter of fact, I should be working now...this is costing somebody money.

[ezzy333]

Another thing to consider is where are we coming from. I tend to think in the terms of someone wanting a hunting dog while I think may of you are coming from the field trialing venue. I know many dogs have been messed up from that point of view but I also know few have been messed up from a hunting dog/pet point. And probably most of them are messed up introducing the shot gun.

Might we consider those two points and what the differences might be.

Ezzy

[Dave Quindt]

Another thing to consider is where are we coming from. I tend to think in the terms of someone wanting a hunting dog while I think may of you are coming from the field trialing venue. I know many dogs have been messed up from that point of view but I also know few have been messed up from a hunting dog/pet point. And probably most of them are messed up introducing the shot gun.

Might we consider those two points and what the differences might be.

For me, there are no differences.

[Vman]

Might we consider those two points and what the differences might be.

I`m not sure if I understand your question Ezzy, but the way I read it I am with Dave. A messed up dog is a messed up dog and it is something that is going to need fixin.

With the price of dogs these days, along with birds,vets,maintenance,gas/lodging and all the training gear. Paying someone to start the dog off right is nothing more than insurance to me. Plus you can`t put a price tag on disappointment, if you screw the dog up for good. Then what do you do if it is the family pet? You are going to feed the dog for the next 15 years and you still don`t have that hunting dog that you always wanted.
Just not worth the risk.

[kninebirddog]

Might we consider those two points and what the differences might be.

I`m not sure if I understand your question Ezzy, but the way I read it I am with Dave. A messed up dog is a messed up dog and it is something that is going to need fixin.

With the price of dogs these days, along with birds,vets,maintenance,gas/lodging and all the training gear. Paying someone to start the dog off right is nothing more than insurance to me. Plus you can`t put a price tag on disappointment, if you screw the dog up for good. Then what do you do if it is the family pet? You are going to feed the dog for the next 15 years and you still don`t have that hunting dog that you always wanted.
Just not worth the risk.

Worth a repeat

[ezzy333]

I am sure both you and Dave are telling us exactly what you think and I appreciate where you are coming from. But then on the other hand there are probably less tha 5% of the sporting dogs in this country that will ever see a trial or a hunt test. Very few of those will ever be broke, many will never be trained to retrieve if thy don't naturally, and a lot of their owner will shy away from anything that pertains to a field trial. How many tales do you even hear on this site of the beloved first dog people have had that weren't purebred, registered or even a pointing dog or retriever. Field training is part of the refinement we like because we are what some are calling addicts and they maybe close to the truth. So many of the dogs in the country will never see any type of formal training and will be exposed to birds and given the chance to show what they are bred with and not what anyone has taught them. That's why we have what so many call backyard breeders and they still have a lot of people wanting their pups because they have hunted together or word of mouth of how the dogs work.

About two hours ago I received a call from someone who has a friend with a Brit out of his dog that wants to find a female to breed it to as both of these people plus a couple of friends they hunt with want a pup. That is the mind set of many people out here in the hinterlands. Kind of warms my heart in one way since that is exactly how the Brits were conceived as a breed and then on the other hand I think that maybe we need to teach these people about better bred dogs. Wasn't a titled dog in the pedigree but everyone wanted one because of the way he hunted.

What do we do about these people. Tell them we think they don't have a clue on what a good dog is and they need to send their dog to a pro? I am on the fence!!!!

Ezzy

[Chukar12]

Too be fair when answering these questions for folks would require a look at their balance sheet. Without that, we are speculating on not only what they are looking for in a dog, but what they can afford others to do. Even those that can afford help may not want or need the bells and whistles. Paul has been mentioned as a pro, and while all my training has been done by myself, it is possible he would handle a pup or finished dog for me in the futuire with no reservation. I have seen he and Peggy's work ethic and integrity first hand. I think the problem, they...or any other pro or experienced mentor has is the handling of the dog when the training is complete. When is a dog reliable? 1 year, 2 years, 5 years? What happens when an owner gets inconsistent with the dog, most commonly because shooting is a priority over training and manners?

I think new people need to know that the dog training is the easy part, it is there willingness to accept the instructions and make the sacrifices needed that are paramount in the bigger picture.

[Meller]

Onk
There is a training seminar in Coulmbia Mo. May 21 and 22, what better way to learn and also
have your puppy evaluated and also have hands on help, and see what others are doing with thier dog's and question's and experience's they might have that would help you latter down the line.
And all in a Groupe setting.
Just my 2 cent's.

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Although I wouldnt recomend anyone going to Columbia that might be a good thing for ya Kirby. Just watch out for all the crazy Tiger fans!!!!

Meller, who is putting that on??

[Vman]

I am sure both you and Dave are telling us exactly what you think and I appreciate where you are coming from. But then on the other hand there are probably less tha 5% of the sporting dogs in this country that will ever see a trial or a hunt test. Very few of those will ever be broke, many will never be trained to retrieve if thy don't naturally, and a lot of their owner will shy away from anything that pertains to a field trial. How many tales do you even hear on this site of the beloved first dog people have had that weren't purebred, registered or even a pointing dog or retriever. Field training is part of the refinement we like because we are what some are calling addicts and they maybe close to the truth. So many of the dogs in the country will never see any type of formal training and will be exposed to birds and given the chance to show what they are bred with and not what anyone has taught them. That's why we have what so many call backyard breeders and they still have a lot of people wanting their pups because they have hunted together or word of mouth of how the dogs work.

Ezzy, good post. I will take a swat at it.
First a little background on me. I have never FT a customers dog. The only dogs I have trialed are my own. So none of my customers are bringing me FT dogs. I do on occasion train and test a NAVHDA NA or UTility dog for a customer. But not alot.
I have never tested a MH for a customer either.
So you take away the 5% or less of the dogs as you say, and I would agree, that trial or test and that is who I work for. I work for the guys that just want to hunt their dog and not have it be a pain in the butt. They want to enjoy that day in the field and not have to put up with a dog that doesn`t know how to hunt, could care less about a bird, is indifferent to gunfire, has never been down with another dog, will not come, won`t swim and doesn`t know what a pheasant, quail, or duck even is.
The HARDEST part of my job is telling a customer his dog is not worth the money that I charge for training. I will try and be as polite as I can, because it is not easy. But I tell them that rather than pay me X amount of dollars, take that money and put it towards a new pup. Whatever the breed may be that they want I do everything I can to make sure that they don`t get another backyard breeding from the guy down at the local Co-op.
Education costs money one way or another. Not only am I training, I am also here for advice and consultation. I could tell you stories that would make you drink, but it goes with the territory. But I know good breeders of just about every breed of hunting dog there is. I know who is doing a good job and I know who to run from. But if the owner never makes that phone call to someone like me he will never know what he did right or wrong. So calling a good trainer and having them spend a couple of weeks with the dog is all good stuff for the owner and the pup.
It is a win, win for everyone involved. If the pup has major issues I would recommend cutting the chase and starting over. Saves money in the long run. I would like to think that most trainers would do the same.

About two hours ago I received a call from someone who has a friend with a Brit out of his dog that wants to find a female to breed it to as both of these people plus a couple of friends they hunt with want a pup. That is the mind set of many people out here in the hinterlands. Kind of warms my heart in one way since that is exactly how the Brits were conceived as a breed and then on the other hand I think that maybe we need to teach these people about better bred dogs. Wasn't a titled dog in the pedigree but everyone wanted one because of the way he hunted.

What do we do about these people. Tell them we think they don't have a clue on what a good dog is and they need to send their dog to a pro? I am on the fence!!!!

Anyone in my boots regularly sees nice dogs with no titled dogs in the pedigree.They are out there,I have seen several in the last year alone. The pup may very well be a nice dog and exactly what the owner wants. But I take it upon myself to educate them that just because it is a nice dog does not mean it is breeding stock. Again,, Education. Most understand without being offended. Most want their next dog to be just like OL`Sparky but a little better. I explain to them how they are going to get that. Hopefully it sinks in and they buy a pup of their breed of choice from a reputable breeder that I recommend.
But if the young owner never gives a Pro a call they will never know this. They will turn around and breed that dog that has temperment issues, bad bite, poor hips, poor coat, low desire and is scared of everything thinking it was just their lack of training being the problem.
The problem of backyard breeders will never go away. But if each and every one of us takes that extra step to help a new owner or future owner, and educate them on the do`s and don`ts, at least they may not repeat the same mistake twice.
Personally, I think that is about all we can do.

[AZSetter]

Vman,
You nailed it. I am one of those owners who did not have enough faith in my abilities to make my dog everything it could be. I felt like rather than screw up a fine dog with alot of potential I would "get professional help".
I am very glad I did. Your training style and my trainers sound very much alike. Took her for "puppy training" which was a breeze as she has tons of desire and prey instinct. She also has never heard a noise she didn't like and want to investigate so gunshots where not an issue.
I have since been going up almost weekly to work her with him and he has been giving me things to do with her. Basically training me. I am taking her back later this month and leaving her for a month. While I don't have alot of disposable income I believe this is money well spent. Spread over the life of a dog it cheaper than feeding one that is not what you want and the family is already so attached that is what would happen if I had somehow screwed her up. I am sure having a trainer that is putting as much effort into training me as the dog has alot to do with how I feel. He has given me the confidance to know that I can handle this dog. I am sure before we are done he will have taught me more than he probably taught the dog. At this point the only thing I would change if I could would be how long it is till next bird season.

[kninebirddog]

I am sure both you and Dave are telling us exactly what you think and I appreciate where you are coming from. But then on the other hand there are probably less tha 5% of the sporting dogs in this country that will ever see a trial or a hunt test. Very few of those will ever be broke, many will never be trained to retrieve if thy don't naturally, and a lot of their owner will shy away from anything that pertains to a field trial. How many tales do you even hear on this site of the beloved first dog people have had that weren't purebred, registered or even a pointing dog or retriever. Field training is part of the refinement we like because we are what some are calling addicts and they maybe close to the truth. So many of the dogs in the country will never see any type of formal training and will be exposed to birds and given the chance to show what they are bred with and not what anyone has taught them. That's why we have what so many call backyard breeders and they still have a lot of people wanting their pups because they have hunted together or word of mouth of how the dogs work.

Ezzy, good post. I will take a swat at it.
First a little background on me. I have never FT a customers dog. The only dogs I have trialed are my own. So none of my customers are bringing me FT dogs. I do on occasion train and test a NAVHDA NA or UTility dog for a customer. But not alot.
I have never tested a MH for a customer either.
So you take away the 5% or less of the dogs as you say, and I would agree, that trial or test and that is who I work for. I work for the guys that just want to hunt their dog and not have it be a pain in the butt. They want to enjoy that day in the field and not have to put up with a dog that doesn`t know how to hunt, could care less about a bird, is indifferent to gunfire, has never been down with another dog, will not come, won`t swim and doesn`t know what a pheasant, quail, or duck even is.
The HARDEST part of my job is telling a customer his dog is not worth the money that I charge for training. I will try and be as polite as I can, because it is not easy. But I tell them that rather than pay me X amount of dollars, take that money and put it towards a new pup. Whatever the breed may be that they want I do everything I can to make sure that they don`t get another backyard breeding from the guy down at the local Co-op.
Education costs money one way or another. Not only am I training, I am also here for advice and consultation. I could tell you stories that would make you drink, but it goes with the territory. But I know good breeders of just about every breed of hunting dog there is. I know who is doing a good job and I know who to run from. But if the owner never makes that phone call to someone like me he will never know what he did right or wrong. So calling a good trainer and having them spend a couple of weeks with the dog is all good stuff for the owner and the pup.
It is a win, win for everyone involved. If the pup has major issues I would recommend cutting the chase and starting over. Saves money in the long run. I would like to think that most trainers would do the same.

About two hours ago I received a call from someone who has a friend with a Brit out of his dog that wants to find a female to breed it to as both of these people plus a couple of friends they hunt with want a pup. That is the mind set of many people out here in the hinterlands. Kind of warms my heart in one way since that is exactly how the Brits were conceived as a breed and then on the other hand I think that maybe we need to teach these people about better bred dogs. Wasn't a titled dog in the pedigree but everyone wanted one because of the way he hunted.

What do we do about these people. Tell them we think they don't have a clue on what a good dog is and they need to send their dog to a pro? I am on the fence!!!!

Anyone in my boots regularly sees nice dogs with no titled dogs in the pedigree.They are out there,I have seen several in the last year alone. The pup may very well be a nice dog and exactly what the owner wants. But I take it upon myself to educate them that just because it is a nice dog does not mean it is breeding stock. Again,, Education. Most understand without being offended. Most want their next dog to be just like OL`Sparky but a little better. I explain to them how they are going to get that. Hopefully it sinks in and they buy a pup of their breed of choice from a reputable breeder that I recommend.
But if the young owner never gives a Pro a call they will never know this. They will turn around and breed that dog that has temperment issues, bad bite, poor hips, poor coat, low desire and is scared of everything thinking it was just their lack of training being the problem.
The problem of backyard breeders will never go away. But if each and every one of us takes that extra step to help a new owner or future owner, and educate them on the do`s and don`ts, at least they may not repeat the same mistake twice.
Personally, I think that is about all we can do.

Majority of our training for clients is for hunting dogs and agree very much with nothing is more disheartening then having to show and tell a client there dog is going to make a pet because it has little to no desire to look at a bird much less even acknowledge it

Or the ones we get in to fix the issues the owners cause like gun shy stuff or other well intentions misguided training starts they do..Guess we can call it job security specially some of those speed training books when a dog doesn't follow the progression

[3Britts]

I take my pups out behind the older dogs until they seem ready to start training. What you need to know is that all dogs, even within a breed, are different and mature at differing rates. Where one dog may be ready to start training, seriously, at four months, another dog may not be ready until well after they turn one year old. In fact, some dogs do not really become hunting dogs until much older. I remember ready about a dog that really turned it on at about 5 years of age, on this forum.
Watch the pup, it will let you know when its time to get to training.

[Meller]

Brushbustin
Look under, Upland training Seminar in the Training Section; it will give the detail's.

[tommyboy72]

Forgive me for being blunt but some of these posts are just the type that really burn my a@! on this website. Much of the puppy work can be done by a novice or amateur as some of you pro trainers like to call us. There is absolutely no reason to scare a newbie and make them think they are going to mess up a dog before they even take the leap into trying to train one for themselves just so you can drum up some business for a "pro" trainer. If a newbie never attempts to train a dog there won't be a first dog or a second or a third for that person to ever learn on much less mess up in your guy's opinions. I am sure that is fine with many of you "pro" trainers because it is money in your pockets but in my personal opinion if you do not have the interest, time, energy, effort, or ambition to train or learn to train your own bird dog then buy a Shih Tzu and take up knitting as a hobby and leave the bird hunting and dog training to people who do want to train their own dogs to hunt over. Many of you are trying to give your expert opinions, I understand, but as a third party bystander to me it looks like you are trying to scare newbies into believing that only professionals can train and that you have some type of special ability that no one else possesses to do this. Truth is you have experience with bird dogs plain and simple and the only way new people are going to acquire the same experience is to pick a dog of their choice and start learning however they deem necessary books, dvd's, apprenticeship, mentoring, whatever to train themselves. Much of hunting a dog is learning to read the dog and they aren't going to learn that if someone else always does the training for them. Why not give tips and training help rather than telling someone you can't do it, bring the dog to me and I will do it for you for a price.

[ezzy333]

Forgive me for being blunt but some of these posts are just the type that really burn my a@! on this website. Much of the puppy work can be done by a novice or amateur as some of you pro trainers like to call us. There is absolutely no reason to scare a newbie and make them think they are going to mess up a dog before they even take the leap into trying to train one for themselves just so you can drum up some business for a "pro" trainer. If a newbie never attempts to train a dog there won't be a first dog or a second or a third for that person to ever learn on much less mess up in your guy's opinions. I am sure that is fine with many of you "pro" trainers because it is money in your pockets but in my personal opinion if you do not have the interest, time, energy, effort, or ambition to train or learn to train your own bird dog then buy a Shih Tzu and take up knitting as a hobby and leave the bird hunting and dog training to people who do want to train their own dogs to hunt over. Many of you are trying to give your expert opinions, I understand, but as a third party bystander to me it looks like you are trying to scare newbies into believing that only professionals can train and that you have some type of special ability that no one else possesses to do this. Truth is you have experience with bird dogs plain and simple and the only way new people are going to acquire the same experience is to pick a dog of their choice and start learning however they deem necessary books, dvd's, apprenticeship, mentoring, whatever to train themselves. Much of hunting a dog is learning to read the dog and they aren't going to learn that if someone else always does the training for them. Why not give tips and training help rather than telling someone you can't do it, bring the dog to me and I will do it for you for a price.

I have to pretty much agree with you Tommy. It ain't rocket science but if the improbable happens and you really need help that is the time to get it and there is a lot of people who would be glad to do it but not before you even try. Your point of having to have a first one is so very true. Each and everyone of us have. there is one real good way to learn and it is do it.

Ezzy

[Meller]

And that is exactly why I recomended the training seminar so one can ask the question's
and get first hand advice, hopefully get to see some of the thing's one's having apprehention
about, first hand; and to gain the confidence to carry on by one's self; to see it happen right before your eye's can only build confidence in carrying out what is learned by watching asking question's and then applying the new found knowledge.
I only whish I could have had this oppertunity to attend a seminar in my area with my first dog instead of reading books and then going with the trial and error system. And I myself plan on attending this seminar,and hope toimprove in my training. Never to old to learn.
JMO

[kbshorthairs]

IMO, there are tons of factors to consider. Most should be thought out BEFORE buying a pup, but that doesn't always happen. I doubt if anyone here is saying that ONLY a professional can train a bird dog, but I would submit that it is easier to train correctly initially than "undo" a mistake. It blows me away when someone posts about creating a gunshy pup and asking advice about how to fix the problem. Another scary situation revolves around questions regarding e-collars when the poster obviously has no business using one. Lack of experience can create problems that are difficult to overcome, but only if people ask for help AFTER they have screwed up. Just for the record, I have had a "PRO" screw up a dog!!!!!
A person new to bird dogs should answer a few questions ......a self evaluation perhaps
-time...........do you have time everyday to spend with this animal?
-space.........do you have an area where you can "train" this animal to do the things you want it to do?
-knowledge.....do you have the knowledge or experience needed to "train" this animal to do what you want it to do?
A professional trainer makes his living working with animals and has the time, space, and knowledge to get the job done. Pros that I know have different levels of training that they offer.......from puppy programs, pre-hunting season tune-ups, to full blown campaigning on the trial circuit. These pros are a valuable tool, just like an e-collar, than are available for us to use.
Is a four month old puppy too young to send to a pro? No. Can a newbie accomplish what the pro can when the puppy is this age? Maybe....If he has a plan, basic knowledge, an area he can work with the pup, birds to expose him to, and restraint when it comes to "overdoing".
I feel comfortable working with puppies......introducing them to birds and the gun. I also LOVE doing it. I like being out and spending time with MY dog. If money wasn't an object I would utilize pros more, but unfortunately right now, money is a huge issue.
Analyzing one's individual situation and goals is the key. Form a plan and then study the best way to achieve YOUR goal with that pup.

[AZSetter]

in my personal opinion if you do not have the interest, time, energy, effort, or ambition to train or learn to train your own bird dog then buy a Shih Tzu and take up knitting as a hobby and leave the bird hunting and dog training to people who do want to train their own dogs to hunt over.

Anyone know where I can get a good Shih Tzu? I'll check back later.......gotta go learn to knit.

[GUNDOGS]

Forgive me for being blunt but some of these posts are just the type that really burn my a@! on this website. Much of the puppy work can be done by a novice or amateur as some of you pro trainers like to call us. There is absolutely no reason to scare a newbie and make them think they are going to mess up a dog before they even take the leap into trying to train one for themselves just so you can drum up some business for a "pro" trainer. If a newbie never attempts to train a dog there won't be a first dog or a second or a third for that person to ever learn on much less mess up in your guy's opinions. I am sure that is fine with many of you "pro" trainers because it is money in your pockets but in my personal opinion if you do not have the interest, time, energy, effort, or ambition to train or learn to train your own bird dog then buy a Shih Tzu and take up knitting as a hobby and leave the bird hunting and dog training to people who do want to train their own dogs to hunt over. Many of you are trying to give your expert opinions, I understand, but as a third party bystander to me it looks like you are trying to scare newbies into believing that only professionals can train and that you have some type of special ability that no one else possesses to do this. Truth is you have experience with bird dogs plain and simple and the only way new people are going to acquire the same experience is to pick a dog of their choice and start learning however they deem necessary books, dvd's, apprenticeship, mentoring, whatever to train themselves. Much of hunting a dog is learning to read the dog and they aren't going to learn that if someone else always does the training for them. Why not give tips and training help rather than telling someone you can't do it, bring the dog to me and I will do it for you for a price.

+1..TOTALLY agree..as ive said many times on here ive only been in the hunting/training/handling world for 8 years and my husband about 20 years and we are both STILL learning..me more so than him but in any event STILL learning..we have had 1 shorthair and 2 english setters together and he had a shorthair before meeting me.. those dogs taught us more than we could ever teach them..unfortunately it seems your first dog when you look back may have "suffered" somewhat because of your lack of knowledge or experience but thats the best way you can learn is by making mistakes in MHO..the way i look at it from a newbie point of view is what good is it to give the dog to a trainer when YOU need to learn as well..from the trainers i have been in contact with they like you to drop off your dog and come back in a few weeks or months..when you come back sure your dog is better than when you left them there but what did YOU as a new owner/trainer learn?..i am not encouraging someone to avoid a trainer in any way!!..for some they propably are needed at some point but just from a newbie standpoint id give it at least a shot before letting anyone tell me id fail at it..for me the most exciting part of buying a bird dog is building the bond while training and hunting and seeing your efforts pay off!!.. ...ruth

[Vman]

Forgive me for being blunt but some of these posts are just the type that really burn my a@! on this website. Much of the puppy work can be done by a novice or amateur as some of you pro trainers like to call us.

I agree, Yes it can. But I don`t appreciate your tone, that is not needed, and I will leave it at that.

There is absolutely no reason to scare a newbie and make them think they are going to mess up a dog before they even take the leap into trying to train one for themselves just so you can drum up some business for a "pro" trainer. If a newbie never attempts to train a dog there won't be a first dog or a second or a third for that person to ever learn on much less mess up in your guy's opinions. I am sure that is fine with many of you "pro" trainers because it is money in your pockets but in my personal opinion if you do not have the interest, time, energy, effort, or ambition to train or learn to train your own bird dog then buy a Shih Tzu and take up knitting as a hobby and leave the bird hunting and dog training to people who do want to train their own dogs to hunt over.

While I may have missed something in the three pages, I am not aware of anyone trying to "scare a newbie and make them think they are going to screw up a dog". I have only read the positives about taking a youngster to a PRo Trainer and the other side which you are on, the negative side.

to me it looks like you are trying to scare newbies into believing that only professionals can train and that you have some type of special ability that no one else possesses to do this. Truth is you have experience with bird dogs plain and simple and the only way new people are going to acquire the same experience is to pick a dog of their choice and start learning however they deem necessary books, dvd's, apprenticeship, mentoring, whatever to train themselves.

Other than the "scaring" I would agree with you. But you also say that reading the dog is important. I am sure that you realize that you can read all the books, watch all the dvds you want, but only hands on experience will you learn to read your dog. This is what I show the new owner when I take them out. I show them what the dog is thinking and explain it too them. As you know every dog is different. You mention mentoring. Isn`t that what I would be doing in the previous sentence?
Apprenticeship??? Under who?? By trade I am a Toolmaker. I took an apprenticeship, I worked with a Master for three years to become a Master and after that I had apprentices under me. That is how it works. But you need someone who can be considered a Master first.

Why not give tips and training help rather than telling someone you can't do it, bring the dog to me and I will do it for you for a price.

I think anyone who you would consider a "PRo" gives out alot of free advice for those smart enough to take it. Be it here or other forums or at a test or trial or out in the field hunting. Tell me what you do for a living and whatever it is, I will try and do it also, and when I screw up or am about to screw up I would like to see you sit back and watch me fail and pretend you didn`t see it. I bet you wouldn`t. Or would you just say "move over" I will do it for you for a price.

I would like to explain something. First off I NEVER said that a new owner cannot train their dog. Just the opposite. I am with you when you say that they should get their feet wet and learn for themselves. Just like you and I did. I have no problem with that.
But you need to understand that first off not everyone can do this stuff. Not everyone can be a good carpenter, drywaller, electrician, teacher, lawyer, rancher,ect.ect. Some people just don`t have the ability to train dogs. I know a guy that has judged dogs for over 30 years and is well respected amongst his peers, but could not train a dog to save his life. Does that mean he should take up knitting and sell his guns? There are GREAT Trainers and there are decent trainers and there are poor trainers. Just like dogs, you can polish poor all you want, but all your going to get is a pretty poor dog, or pretty poor trainer.
For the most part, I am speaking for myself here. I have two types of customers. Those that have lots of money and no time to train, and the ones that have lots of time and no money. I take both and I am sure that other trainers see the same.
If everybody had the time to train and trial their own dogs there would not be any Pros. They would not be needed. But that is in the perfect world, and you know we do not have that. We provide a service, just like the oil change place down the road, or the restaurant that you frequently visit or the bar that you go to. You can cook at home, you can change your own oil, you can drink at home, you can do your own drywall, you can do anything yourself if you have the time and ambition to learn how. Or you can take it too someone who can do it better and cheaper, and quicker and have a better product in the end.

[Onk]

I am learning alot by sitting back and just reading all of your post on this topic. I have in no way been scared off of trying to train my first pup by anything anyone has posted on here. I should say I have trained alot of family pets over the years and have always got older EP's that belonged to someone else first, yes most times the reason I got them for free or next to nothing is because they came with issues. I'm sure you have heard the saying "free dogs don't hunt", well those are the dogs I worked with and hunted over since I was a teen and they can and do hunt with a little reprograming. So you see I can work with an older dog easy enough but this is my first from scratch bird dog and on top of I have changed breeds. I think the puppy stage I can handle but to be honest I just want to do right by the dog and make him the best he can be. That is why I am even remotely thinking of a part time trainer so to speek, if that is even done. In other words if I start with this pup and it or I start having struggles it would be nice to have someone to line me and or the pup back out. I am even going to go to my first field trial 3 weeks after I get my pup to watch and see if it is something that interest me. If so, I'm not sure I can train a dog to that level. Thanks for all your help!

[Vman]

Onk,, Thanks for your update. Good Luck with your first trial/assessment. It sounds like you know your limitations and you know what to do if you feel you are in question. Most won`t do that. I hope all works out as planned for you. But if you have any questions be sure to feel free to come here and seek advice. If that does not help, use your trainer as planned. You will never regret that decision!

Good luck and have fun!

Lee

[tommyboy72]

First off I really don't care what you think about my tone. No offense and I will leave it at that.

Secondly I work in law enforcement for the sheriff's office for the largest county square mileage wise in Oklahoma. I dispatch for 10-12 officers from 5-6 different towns at a time. I run specialized law enforcement computer programs that are tied into national and Canadian databases for tags, drivers licenses, criminal backgrounds, FBI databases, etc. I serve out warrants, protective orders and civil papers, I deal with other law enforcement agencies via phone, fax, and teletype. I am also a 911 operator for a major hub in the county accepting all 911 calls placed via cell phone in the county and all 911 calls placed from anywhere in the county except for the town that my place of employment is located so probably about 7 or 8 towns and the entire rural area. I deal with Ambulance and Fire services for all towns in the county and notify them of any 911 calls that they need to go to on top of dispatching law enforcement personel to them as well. There are various other duties also included in my job description that I will not go into right now but if you tried my job you would fail miserably and I would allow you to fail and then instruct you on how to do it right with no charge because that is the type of guy I am.

I`m not sure if I understand your question Ezzy, but the way I read it I am with Dave. A messed up dog is a messed up dog and it is something that is going to need fixin.

With the price of dogs these days, along with birds,vets,maintenance,gas/lodging and all the training gear. Paying someone to start the dog off right is nothing more than insurance to me. Plus you can`t put a price tag on disappointment, if you screw the dog up for good. Then what do you do if it is the family pet? You are going to feed the dog for the next 15 years and you still don`t have that hunting dog that you always wanted.
Just not worth the risk.

By sending this pup to the trainer{providing he is good and honest} not only is the pup starting out on the right foot, so is the owner. A good trainer will take that pup and get him revved up on birds. He will properly introduce gunfire. He will let the pup run and if the pup has the wheels he will let him roll. Something the new owner would be afraid to do. The trainer will work on or polish known commands. Clean it up if you will. If the weather allows, the trainer may get the pup into water. This is something I always try and do, Make water fun. Either retrieving or chasing a duck around. Really builds desire and confidence.
While at the trainers the pup will get socialized with other dogs. He will learn how to fit in. He will learn to obey a different person. He will learn that there is life with no bed to sleep on. He will learn what a chain gang is. He will learn that every time he gets loaded into the truck he is going to see birds and this is going to be fun. He will learn that barking his head off will not get him attention or get him out of the kennel or off the chain. He will be exposed to horses and ATVs. Things that we have all seen NOT DONE at a Hunt test or trial.
Now, the above is what I do with youngsters. I call it my puppy program. It is VERY popular and it is work that I thoroughly
enjoy. I will get all this done in two weeks. I am not taking the pup for months to get this done. It takes two weeks here unless weather gets in my way. It costs $300 plus birds killed. It is the best money the new owner will ever spend.

This helps eliminating the need to "FIX" something. It also gives the owner a chance to make acquaintance with a trainer before they screw up the dog not just after, and then I have this confused dog I have to straighten out, and that will cost at least twice what the puppy camp costs and usually more.

Having seen lots of pups screwed up by well-meaning newbies I strongly prefer to see a pro involved with bird and gun introduction. The problem with newbies (and I was very guilty of it) is that they lack the experience to "quit while you're ahead" and fall into the "more = better" trap. Having that "voice of reason" watching over the dog is always a good thing.

It's very rare for a newbie to be able to become an effective trainer with his first (or second or third) dog without making some pretty big mistakes, at the expense of the dog. IMO, it's always best for a pro to be involved with a newbie, even if it's just on a seminar-basis, as usually problems can be avoided before they happen, which is in the best interest of the dog.

Education costs money one way or another. Not only am I training, I am also here for advice and consultation. I could tell you stories that would make you drink, but it goes with the territory. But I know good breeders of just about every breed of hunting dog there is. I know who is doing a good job and I know who to run from. But if the owner never makes that phone call to someone like me he will never know what he did right or wrong.

This doesn't sound like you are trying to scare a person new to the sport?

I also still stand by my statement that if you are not willing to do the legwork and put in the training time with your dog then you need to find a new hobby. If you are not willing to at least try and train your own dog or dogs then basically all you care about is killing birds and I guided a few guys like that this year and it pretty much sickened me but I took their money because I needed it for Christmas for my family but I will never do it again. It put a real bad taste in my mouth and made me really dislike the guys I was guiding for. Point is upland hunting with a dog is a sport and a hobby. Walking and shooting birds is only part of the equation. Training your dog and learning to read them is another part of the equation and should be done by those most closely associated with the dog in question. JMO

[snips]

GEEEEEZ! This Forum needs a chill pill!

[Cajun Casey]

Just an observation, but it appears the trainer was scheduling based on getting the pup through foundation/intro before really hot weather set in.

[Vman]

First off I really don't care what you think about my tone. No offense and I will leave it at that.

Secondly I work in law enforcement for the sheriff's office

Well that explains it.

[tommyboy72]

Ya I know no one likes law enforcement until you need them.

[Big Dave]

Heck I like ya Tom, but then again I work in a prison.

[tommyboy72]

Thanks Dave it isn't my first choice for employment but around here it pays decent. Hopefully some day I will use my degree that I worked so hard for.

[birddogger]

I also agree with Tom on this one. I think people make this training thing much harder than it is. There is always a fear for a first time trainer that you will mess a dog up, but do your home work, put in the time and you will be fine. You will probably make some mistakes, but they can be over come, and a big part of enjoying the sport comes from training your own dog. If you don't have the time or desire to train, then a pro trainer is the way to go, but don't let the fear of making some mistakes stop you. If you do decide to use a pro, I wouldn't send a 4 mo. old. You will end up spending a lot of money on something you can easily do on your own, and then spend a lot more on formal training when he/she is older. JMO.

Charlie

[Brittlover]

Hi, this is my first post here but it's a subject that is very important to me right now.

Basically, I'm willing to do the puppy training, but have a bum knee, can't ride and I live in Canada. So I want to find a trainer that will take my dog in, train it for field trialling and gain her a US field championship. Genetically she'll have the goods, but the 6 months of age sort of surprised me, especially since she'll be 6 months at the end of October, after the trialling season is done up here. Maybe this is something I should be taking up with individual trainers. A few books I've read have stated to stick with Brittany handlers because of their temperament.

Basically, I know I can teach a dog to hunt, I don't think I could train a champion field trialer. There's a lot of subtleties that I wouldn't give a "bleep" about if I was hunting, that judges are very fussy about.