Gun Dog Forum

Oh yea you have a win certificate like this, or one that says NON regular stake.

You are right about Derby, but than again they do not have to be broke and never did.

I dont believe it differentiates, I dont have any from the "gun dog " stakes. My derby certificates dont though. Maybe V-John could chime back in.

It most defiantly differentiates or do you have one that looks like this. There is NO gun dog stakes in AFTCA or AF they are called shooting dogs.

topher40 wrote:I dont believe it differentiates, I dont have any from the "gun dog " stakes. My derby certificates dont though. Maybe V-John could chime back in.

I'll have to look and see what it says.

I believe, though, that they will say Am. Shooting Dog. But that's just a guess.

Joe-
I beg to differ, I run AFTCA HB and walking dog stakes. I also host a trial of my own, I am the treasurer, the secretary, bird planter, marshall, cook, president, and chairman, and WE HAVE A GUN DOG STAKE AND YOU GET WIN CERT'S FOR PLACEMENTS. This is not a rarity but commonplace in this area. The only difference between your win cert and my derby cert's is the information for the stake. Yours says shooting dog, mine say derby. Even a doubting Thomas believed after he saw, maybe you could come to my trial.

Well all right then let’s just say not in my neck of the woods and not in any AFTCA Amateur shooting stake that I have ever heard of, but you are 100% correct, derbies do not have to be broke, but every AFTCA win certificate I have ever seen, says shooting dog or derby.

Maybe Ray or Neil or any other die hard trialer like myself can chime in.

Topher what Joe wrote is completely right. I’ve been trialing and shooting birds for over 50 years and that is the way it has always been. What you may have is a derby cert. or a non qualifying cert. (what Joe calls non regular) or simply a fun trial, but not a shooting dog qualifying cert.

Chris,

I don't see how this can be. So you are saying that an unbroke dog wins an "Am. Shooting Dog Stake", he is now qualified for Championships. I hope not.

I am afraid so, dont see why they would give the cert though. How many guys running "Gun dog" stakes have a dog to compete at the Ch level? Vagas, you know Doug Meyer........I took his entries the other night and explicitly asked if this was going to be an Amateur Sh Dog because he wants his dog qualified. I cant figure out the reasoning behind it though. These were some of the concerns that I brought up in the Winter KFTCA meeting concerning this change that LINDA HUNT asked for.

Joe-
Like I said, I cant change beliefs. I am discussing facts, I dont care how long someone has been trialing or hunting. This is the way it is now. It is happening, it does happen, and will happen again. I guess you will have to trust me.

topher40 wrote:I am afraid so, dont see why they would give the cert though. How many guys running "Gun dog" stakes have a dog to compete at the Ch level? Vagas, you know Doug Meyer........I took his entries the other night and explicitly asked if this was going to be an Amateur Sh Dog because he wants his dog qualified. I cant figure out the reasoning behind it though. These were some of the concerns that I brought up in the Winter KFTCA meeting concerning this change that LINDA HUNT asked for.

Joe-
Like I said, I cant change beliefs. I am discussing facts, I dont care how long someone has been trialing or hunting. This is the way it is now. It is happening, it does happen, and will happen again. I guess you will have to trust me.

Wow! Just unreal! I'll be considering focusing towards AA. I just don't feel that is right. JMO.

This all comes along with the changing times & attitudes.Everbody makes the team,everybody gets to play,there are no loosers everyone is a winner and so and so on.
I have strong feelings about these kind of attitudes & what it has caused in society but this is a GUNDOG SITE.

My breeder keeps wanting me to go but I dont have the time...look back at this thread, this is why most newbs dont want to try it. Some guys are just to hardcore and jumping in as an newb is a little intimidating...

Iowa wrote:My breeder keeps wanting me to go but I dont have the time...look back at this thread, this is why most newbs dont want to try it. Some guys are just to hardcore and jumping in as an newb is a little intimidating...

You're intimidated by a bunch of guys hiding behind keyboards? Come on man.

ElhewPointer wrote:

Iowa wrote:My breeder keeps wanting me to go but I dont have the time...look back at this thread, this is why most newbs dont want to try it. Some guys are just to hardcore and jumping in as an newb is a little intimidating...

You're intimidated by a bunch of guys hiding behind keyboards? Come on man.

I didnt say I was! But if the trial is half what this thread I would guess most will stay away. To hardcore for me, I like to have fun! Plus I run my dogs on SD and Iowa pheasants so they are a little different in their training.

Iowa wrote:

ElhewPointer wrote:

Iowa wrote:My breeder keeps wanting me to go but I dont have the time...look back at this thread, this is why most newbs dont want to try it. Some guys are just to hardcore and jumping in as an newb is a little intimidating...

You're intimidated by a bunch of guys hiding behind keyboards? Come on man.

I didnt say I was! But if the trial is half what this thread I would guess most will stay away. To hardcore for me, I like to have fun! Plus I run my dogs on SD and Iowa pheasants so they are a little different in their training.

Im in NE on pheasants too Iowa.

Guys:

The following is a quote from the AFTCA running rules:

d) Winners in Members and Gun Dog or Shooting Dog stakes shall be recorded and win certificates issued, but winners of children’s, ladies’, brace, and other stakes not conforming to the definitions contained under this Section will not be recognized.

If the stake is advertized as "Judgement ceases at flush", then it is a stake for which win certificates are awarded adn a win will be placed on that dog's record. That is a fact.

In the same way as a derby placement qualifies a dog, a gundog stake will qualify a dog for amateur shooting dog championships. I don't think there will be more concern about an unbroke gundog entering a championship than an unbroke derby doing the same thing. Just bnecause a dog is qualified to enter, doesn't mean it is qualified to win.

RayG

Iowa if you are refering to my post as being intimidating you shouldn't let it be,as I am pretty much a newB myself compared to Joe,Neil,Ray & alot others.I just got into trialing few yrs back & just did it.There are rules that have been in effect for yrs & should not intimidate anyone there are rules in life we have to pull up our pants & deal with them,The rules of life is reality the ones that can't deal with them well you read about them everyday in the news paper or hear about it on the TV or the net.

You just have to take the first step!!

topher40 wrote:Actually I am not, although I cant argue beliefs. I am hosting a trial Feb 19th and 20th that has an Amateur Shooting dog stake. These are unbroke stakes that are provided mostly for "hunters" to participate in. This year Linda Hunt has asked that these stakes be referred to as an Amateur Shooting Dog stake rather than a Gun Dog stake as it had been referred to for years. This allows new folks to also get a win certificate.

That must be a new change in the rules. When I was organizing and running trials under the AFTCA banner there was no such thing as a "formal" stake where adult dogs did not need to be broke. "Gun Dog" stakes where dogs are not broke were run as fun stakes to encourage participation by those whose dogs were not trained to a level required by the Adult stakes. The couple of times they were run there were guys who entered their "green broke" dogs for extra experience and took the wins, leaving the "hunters" soured on the experience and claiming "good old boys".

Chris is there an age limit on the GD stakes or can they run that for life & in so doing NEVER be BROKE?

Iowa wrote: My breeder keeps wanting me to go but I dont have the time...look back at this thread, this is why most newbs dont want to try it. Some guys are just to hardcore and jumping in as an newb is a little intimidating.


I didnt say I was! But if the trial is half what this thread I would guess most will stay away. To hardcore for me, I like to have fun! Plus I run my dogs on SD and Iowa pheasants so they are a little different in their training.

Iowa -

I have always said that trialing, for me was fun and that if i didn't want to have fun I could always go back to work.

All I can tell you is that trialing is a blast. Are there people that take it, and themselves too seriously?? Absolutely! But those same folks would knock you down in a pickup game of halfcourt basketball or try to run down and lay out the second baseman at a fireman's picnic softball game. You get that in ANY competitive sport.

How many times, in competitive sports, will your opponent work just as hard to make you win as they worked to win themselves?? Never. In field trialing that is what happens...ALL THE TIME! Why?? Because at its core, field trialing ain't about the people...it is about the dogs and finding and rewarding the best dog.

I'll tell you what happens...a lot... and then you can make your own decision. A real field trialer will cut their dog loose and run it the best they can and do whatever they can, within the rules, to win. In the very next brace, that same hardcore competitor will, if asked, work just as hard to see that YOUR dog does as good a job as they are able. They will run their horse into a lather scouting for a dog that might beat their own entry. I know i said it above, but it really does bear repeating...

In the sport of field trialing, the real sportsman wants the best dog to win...even if it ain't his or her dog!! Those are the kind of folks I want to be around. maybe some of it will rub off.

RayG

To answer the OP's Question:

1) Time
2) Money
3) Distance ( which is really Time + money)
4) No access to Horses

But say if I was retired and rich, I think the first hurdle I would have to get over is all the terminology from the various governing Trial bodies AKC and AF. I would need to figure out where my dog could be entered.

So to all those in the know may be you can help me with what venue to enter in:

Say I have a 28 month old that is :
AKC registered
Completed AKC JH ( that was fun but set her training back some with those poor flying birds)
Steady to wing and shot
Backs and handles well
Looks good on point
Retrieves just fine.
Has never entered a field trial before

So from this puppy and derby are out.

What is the appropriate stake to enter my dog in ? Will I have to compete against pro handlers?

Can anyone help out with some suggestions ? I' m actually interested in seeing what my options are.

I know one is to give her to a pro and then just travel to watch the runs that I can.

Thanks

Enter your dog in an akc trial - amateur gun dog or open gun dog. In open you'll be running against pros but so what? They're used to getting beat by amateurs Besides, you will learn a ton from competing with them. Sometimes it's better to compete with the pros because you have a good chance of being braced with a well-trained dog, while in the amateur stakes you might draw a bracemate which is not so polished and can take out your dog.

topher40 wrote:I dont believe it differentiates, I dont have any from the "gun dog " stakes. My derby certificates dont though. Maybe V-John could chime back in.

Here you go. I have certificates for both.



Open Gun Dog



Am. Shooting Dog

Besides, you will learn a ton from competing with them.

BINGO!!! Never be afraid to compete with the pros....steal 'em blind...don't tell them but they're giving you lessons for notta....use your eyes and your ears...and its all legal.

A pro once said to me years ago that he feared the good amateurs with one dog more than his buddies with their strings.

topher40 wrote:I am afraid so, dont see why they would give the cert though. How many guys running "Gun dog" stakes have a dog to compete at the Ch level? Vagas, you know Doug Meyer........I took his entries the other night and explicitly asked if this was going to be an Amateur Sh Dog because he wants his dog qualified. I cant figure out the reasoning behind it though. These were some of the concerns that I brought up in the Winter KFTCA meeting concerning this change that LINDA HUNT asked for.

Joe-
Like I said, I cant change beliefs. I am discussing facts, I dont care how long someone has been trialing or hunting. This is the way it is now. It is happening, it does happen, and will happen again. I guess you will have to trust me.

I called Linda Hunt and Region 17 Trustee, Dr. Pat McInteer and you are right and wrong on this Chris. Gundogs now do get a win certificate and it does go towards wins on a sire or dams production records. However, it is your job as the stakes manager to distinguish(spelling) between a gundog and a shooting dog on the form you send in to Linda. It states in the Rules and Regulations that a shooting dog, must be broke.

It also takes a large investment in a serviceable hunting dog. Then too, the results are not guaranteed.

Depends on your definition of serviceable. The vast majority of hunters do not have a fully broke dog. Most just simply take them hunting with minimal training and get what they get. I believe most of the folks on this board are avid hunters but they are certainly not average Joe hunters, not in my neck of the woods anyway. The people on this board by and large have very well trained dogs. I've seen a lot of dogs in my day and other than at field trials the vast majority had basic obedience, possibly a puppy intro to birds and some fun retrieving in the backyard but that's about it. The average Joe's dog goes with the bird, sometimes takes the bird out, doesn't back (unless it does it naturally), they might retrieve but may also just secure the bird for you to come and get it. If you get a pup out of a good breeding and just take it hunting it'll figure things out on it's own as long as you follow a couple basic practices to avoid screwing things up. That is what most hunters do IMHO.

gspguy wrote:

It also takes a large investment in a serviceable hunting dog. Then too, the results are not guaranteed.

Depends on your definition of serviceable. The vast majority of hunters do not have a fully broke dog. Most just simply take them hunting with minimal training and get what they get. I believe most of the folks on this board are avid hunters but they are certainly not average Joe hunters, not in my neck of the woods anyway. The people on this board by and large have very well trained dogs. I've seen a lot of dogs in my day and other than at field trials the vast majority had basic obedience, possibly a puppy intro to birds and some fun retrieving in the backyard but that's about it. The average Joe's dog goes with the bird, sometimes takes the bird out, doesn't back (unless it does it naturally), they might retrieve but may also just secure the bird for you to come and get it. If you get a pup out of a good breeding and just take it hunting it'll figure things out on it's own as long as you follow a couple basic practices to avoid screwing things up. That is what most hunters do IMHO.

I agree whole heartedly.

Ezzy

gspguy wrote:

It also takes a large investment in a serviceable hunting dog. Then too, the results are not guaranteed.

Depends on your definition of serviceable. The vast majority of hunters do not have a fully broke dog. Most just simply take them hunting with minimal training and get what they get. I believe most of the folks on this board are avid hunters but they are certainly not average Joe hunters, not in my neck of the woods anyway. The people on this board by and large have very well trained dogs. I've seen a lot of dogs in my day and other than at field trials the vast majority had basic obedience, possibly a puppy intro to birds and some fun retrieving in the backyard but that's about it. The average Joe's dog goes with the bird, sometimes takes the bird out, doesn't back (unless it does it naturally), they might retrieve but may also just secure the bird for you to come and get it. If you get a pup out of a good breeding and just take it hunting it'll figure things out on it's own as long as you follow a couple basic practices to avoid screwing things up. That is what most hunters do IMHO.

Completely agree. That is exactly how it is around here as well. Most of the hunting dogs around here are labs but as long as the dog likes to retrieve and most of the time leaves the duck somewhere on dry land and you don't have to do any swimming, it's a good dog. Training consists of throwing a few tennis balls in the river once in a while. Most of these people couldn't be bothered to go on a dog forum so you don't get their comments. The dog does the swimming, you can get him to the bird by throwing rocks and thats great. Nothing wrong with it, and it has been my observations as well.

I'll agree with you guys a little on this. But, on this forum, there sure is a lot of "hunting" guys in the Training portion of this forum asking, where to send him to a trainer, best dvds, best e-caller, how to build a pigeon coop, where to buy birds, seminars to attend, bird launcher, etc..... Just a guess but im pretty sure all of these things take money=investment. Not to mention time. Heck there is a post, where's the best online place to buy stuff.

All these tools are used to train a trial dog. Just a different way of training.

Elhew you are correct in that there are always folks asking for advice and so on. I tend to be in that group and have a number of videos, gear, etc. and also have a pro trainer/trialer that I call for advice now and then. Those folks do exist but my experience tells me there are a lot more out there that just buy a pup and take it hunting. They might seek advice now and then but when they have to plunk down cash to get it done they tend to step back.

I'd love for my dog to be fully broke and see the value in it but just don't have the time and money to get her there and keep her there.

Steady to WSF just isn't that hard...let's face it...you can have fun without it...aside from safety concerns, there are dogs that provide years of hunting enjoyment without it...BUT...if 100's, even 1000's of pet and poopsie owners (as well as the more serious) can do it in NAVHDA, don't see how it can be that daunting....its a little time, a plan, an extra pair of hands, and a sense of where you're going....pretty easy really...and thanks to Mr. Tri Tronics, its the hard chargers that are the easiest....the soft squirmy ones less so....its a fielder's choice but t'ain't much to it.

ElhewPointer wrote:I'll agree with you guys a little on this. But, on this forum, there sure is a lot of "hunting" guys in the Training portion of this forum asking, where to send him to a trainer, best dvds, best e-caller, how to build a pigeon coop, where to buy birds, seminars to attend, bird launcher, etc..... Just a guess but im pretty sure all of these things take money=investment. Not to mention time. Heck there is a post, where's the best online place to buy stuff.

All these tools are used to train a trial dog. Just a different way of training.

I agree but I do think we have the people who want to train and not the older guys who have had dogs and expected them to hunt when they grew up and that didn't mean doing a lot of training.

Ezzy

well, I just sumbitted my entry form for my first field trial in california city on Feb 20th-21st. Entered my GSP in open puppy. If any of you are going to be there come say hi. I'll be the one looking totally lost with an out of control dog.

Good for you Brad have fun then come back & tell us if it was a good or bad experience.

JKP wrote:Steady to WSF just isn't that hard...let's face it...you can have fun without it...aside from safety concerns, there are dogs that provide years of hunting enjoyment without it...BUT...if 100's, even 1000's of pet and poopsie owners (as well as the more serious) can do it in NAVHDA, don't see how it can be that daunting....its a little time, a plan, an extra pair of hands, and a sense of where you're going....pretty easy really...and thanks to Mr. Tri Tronics, its the hard chargers that are the easiest....the soft squirmy ones less so....its a fielder's choice but t'ain't much to it.

What's up with the "pet/poopsie" slam? Seems a little harsh. Only around two hundred NAVHDA dogs pass their UT's (where steadiness is required) each year, while probably four or five times that many fail it. How "poopsie" is a hundred yard blind across water, or a double-marked water retrieve? Different games obviously require different skills, but they're all good.

Enough for me. I just finished knitting a pink sweater for my NAVHDA dog and want him to try it on to see if it matches his stockings before I tuck him in for the night.

ckirsch wrote:

JKP wrote:Steady to WSF just isn't that hard...let's face it...you can have fun without it...aside from safety concerns, there are dogs that provide years of hunting enjoyment without it...BUT...if 100's, even 1000's of pet and poopsie owners (as well as the more serious) can do it in NAVHDA, don't see how it can be that daunting....its a little time, a plan, an extra pair of hands, and a sense of where you're going....pretty easy really...and thanks to Mr. Tri Tronics, its the hard chargers that are the easiest....the soft squirmy ones less so....its a fielder's choice but t'ain't much to it.

What's up with the "pet/poopsie" slam? Seems a little harsh. Only around two hundred NAVHDA dogs pass their UT's (where steadiness is required) each year, while probably four or five times that many fail it. How "poopsie" is a hundred yard blind across water, or a double-marked water retrieve? Different games obviously require different skills, but they're all good.

Enough for me. I just finished knitting a pink sweater for my NAVHDA dog and want him to try it on to see if it matches his stockings before I tuck him in for the night.

Sounds like another case of someone deciding how some one else should train their dog. Many don't train for steadiness and many don't want to. I think it is something everyone should decide for their self.

Brad,

Good for you...make sure you get to those grounds in the daylight. They aren't easy to find. ...and if you see an in control puppy in the stake let us know.

best regards,

Joe

brad27 wrote:well, I just sumbitted my entry form for my first field trial in california city on Feb 20th-21st. Entered my GSP in open puppy. If any of you are going to be there come say hi. I'll be the one looking totally lost with an out of control dog.

Been to California City. Wicked ground on horseback. Not dangerous, but wicked. Not sure where they run the puppy, but it should be okay. If they run it after any of the broke dog stakes your pup should get into birds. Have alot of fun.

There are some hills and rock...they are by no stretch mile post 9 or Red Rock but they aren't an ag field either. The Britt clubs almost all run the derby and puppy stakes in the sage flats below the camping area.

gpblitz wrote:

JKP wrote:there are dogs that provide years of hunting enjoyment without it...BUT...if 100's, even 1000's of pet and poopsie owners (as well as the more serious) can do it in NAVHDA, don't see how it can be that daunting....

Since you think NAVDHA is soooo easy maybe you might want to train a dog or two to the invitational level. I think you might walk away with a differant view.

I think you are mis imterpreting what was said. I took it that if people can train to the NAVADA standard they can train most anything.

Am I wrong.

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:

gpblitz wrote:

JKP wrote:there are dogs that provide years of hunting enjoyment without it...BUT...if 100's, even 1000's of pet and poopsie owners (as well as the more serious) can do it in NAVHDA, don't see how it can be that daunting....

Since you think NAVDHA is soooo easy maybe you might want to train a dog or two to the invitational level. I think you might walk away with a differant view.

I think you are mis imterpreting what was said. I took it that if people can train to the NAVADA standard they can train most anything.

Am I wrong.

Ezzy

I'm guessing Howie has it right, Ezzy. Not sure how the "poopsie" remark could be taken as a compliment. Sounds a lot more like someone being overly critical of a venue they don't participate in, and probably have little experience with. What holds newbs back from trialing? Hmmmm....

Since you think NAVDHA is soooo easy maybe you might want to train a dog or two to the invitational level. I think you might walk away with a differant view.

Don't get your panties in a knot...I have been to the invitational twice and my dogs were perfect through everything but we got the duck from heck twice and ran out of time (30 minutes)...in the old days, someone threw the duck from a boat into 20 acres of heavy cover...

I've run 5 UT 1 out of 7 tries with 4 different dogs in the past 10 years...4 of those were max scores if I remember..went to my first NAVHDA training day in 1973...and have probably helped folks train more dogs than I can remember...and I still don't think getting a dog steady to WSF is very difficult...not saying folks should do it...each to his own...just mean its not that daunting a task....not trying to offend....thought I was trying to be supportive.

The pets and poopsies comment is probably because we see a lot of show/pet owners here in the east...semi serious types trying to prove their dogs are capable....you may not see that where you are...sorry I mentioned it.

Think I'll leave this topic alone...have some frayed nerves here

brad27 wrote:well, I just sumbitted my entry form for my first field trial in california city on Feb 20th-21st. Entered my GSP in open puppy. If any of you are going to be there come say hi. I'll be the one looking totally lost with an out of control dog.

Thats great Brad, good luck have fun! Let us know how you do!

JKP;

Fortunately, I was able to straighten out my undergarments after I read your explanation. (Happy to report there was no permanent damage.) If you review your initial post, I think you'll understand how it could have been construed differently than intended. Sounds like you know your way around NAVHDA better than most. I agree that there are some non-hunting pet-type folks testing dogs, but from what I've seen most don't progress past the NA stage.

No harm, no foul....

My answer to the original question would be, outside of walking trials I think the main deterrent would be $$$ and A-holes.

The great thing about field trials and all dog sports, is that there are so many different venues that all can play, but the bottom line for all of them, is you need to get out from in front of the computer, go outside, let the dog go, and apply yourself. It does not happen by its self.

Just wait a minute Joe. If I hadn't been sitting here in front of my computer, I would never have gotten your sage advice. Besides, hunting season is over and my trial season begins next month. I think that my dogs need a rest right now.

Ok . My Reason Would Be Because i'am Just As " BROKE " As My Dog's Are

This thread has been an interesting read. I'd like to add my two cents being a newbie and all. Let me give you a little background about me. I bought a pup in late 2009 that had the field trial genes and a lot of FC's in his pedigree. I didn't have a clue what a field trial was, but a good friend of mine told me that I would like it and the people involved in the sport. So I got my pup some training and participated in 5 trials last year. Let me share some obstacles for a newbie.

Knowledge and experience - Like I said, I didn't have a clue what to do but had a very supportive breeder get me started. I also had joined a breed club which was very helpful. ( So the breeders can have a huge impact on newbies by being supportive and sharing their knowledge of field trials)

Access to a horse - I was able to beg, borrow, rent and steal horses for my trials, but it was a challenge. I didn't always have access to a horse to scout the course or watch many braces which was a distinct disadvantage. This year I leased a horse (which is easy to do) so I can run more trials.

Ego - I can understand how someone might think that how his dog runs is a reflection on him and then would hesitate to field trial. I don't know how you can convice somebody that has that level of self esteem. For me, run what you brung, do the best you can and strive to get better through training and experience.

Final thoughts - For those participating in a trial, be friendly, be as helpful as you can and make sure that everybody has an experience that makes them want to return.

Entrance fees and travel expenses.
Trials that often run on weekdays.
Lack of trialing experience and knowledge of judging intricacies.
Gut feeling that there is little chance of placing in an open stake where you're competing against professional handlers, whose livelihoods depend on winning trials.
Gut feeling that there is little chance of winning an amateur stake, where the judges are often professional handlers being asked to judge dogs that they may have trained and that are in some instances being handled by some of the very same amateur owners who are paying their wages.
To get in the game, I really feel you need to place a dog with a professional trainer/handler, and that involves a bit more discretionary income than I care to share.