Friendly Argument - Need Input

[SD Pheasant Slayer]

A friend and I are in a friendly debate regarding general range among the gun dog breeds. The issue stems from our discussion of wanting (or not wanting) a big running dog to hunt the wide open spaces out west. The question is simple, which breed is "generally" bigger running - Setters or Shorthairs? We both understand that there are exceptions and we aren't interested in which breed is "better." Just simply, which breed is going to cover more ground (independent of training, owner preference, or any other variables) in the wide open prairies? Pointer people - yes, we know you're dogs run the biggest, remain calm . I can't seem to find a source to "prove" my argument, which for the sake of fair bet settlement, I'll save for later. I figured this forum was the best proof I could come up with.

[topher40]

Generally speaking, setters.

[proudag08]

I can't seem to find a source to "prove" my argument, which for the sake of fair bet settlement, I'll save for later.

Ha ha ha ha

Nice avatar by the way...

[PntrRookie]

"Generally" Setters

[ymepointer]

While finding PROOF is going to be somewhat difficult, you can take a look at the Major all breed prarie AA championships and count how many setters have placed or won vs the number of shorneys in the same time frame......I believe that will give you the proof you need, though winning is more than JUST range.

My vote...Setters

[SD Pheasant Slayer]

Thank you, Gentlemen. Your input is appreciated and the debate is settled

[Wagonmaster]

No way! Shorthairs for sure. Don't take the word of a couple of setter guys.

The reality is that there is a very broad range of "ranges" in both breeds. There have been a small number of horseback setters that can range with the pointers on a good day, but that is a small number. We have an at least equal number of true AA dogs in the shorthair breed. There are also lots of close working dogs in both breeds.

If you were to average them all out, the breeds are a horse apiece in terms of average range.

[AzDoggin]

Wagonmaster called it.

It's THE INDIVIDUAL DOG.

Should be fun watching this thread progress, though.

This is, after all, a discussion forum, right?

[snips]

Definetly the individual dog...Hunting dogs in general should adjust to the spaces they run in tho.......I know Fritz is a dot in the distance in Dakotas....He goes til he finds birds...

[remmy]

While finding PROOF is going to be somewhat difficult, you can take a look at the Major all breed prarie AA championships and count how many setters have placed or won vs the number of shorneys in the same time frame......I believe that will give you the proof you need, though winning is more than JUST range.

My vote...Setters

All breed praire AA Championships? Besides NGPDA-(not really prairies), what all breed praire AA Championships are there and how many shorthairs run in them?

[ymepointer]

While finding PROOF is going to be somewhat difficult, you can take a look at the Major all breed prarie AA championships and count how many setters have placed or won vs the number of shorneys in the same time frame......I believe that will give you the proof you need, though winning is more than JUST range.

My vote...Setters

All breed praire AA Championships? Besides NGPDA-(not really prairies), what all breed praire AA Championships are there and how many shorthairs run in them?

NGPDA is a restricted AA- I am talking open to any breed, and as you so elegantly pointed out, not many shortneys are seen though they are more than welcome to run

[remmy]

While finding PROOF is going to be somewhat difficult, you can take a look at the Major all breed prarie AA championships and count how many setters have placed or won vs the number of shorneys in the same time frame......I believe that will give you the proof you need, though winning is more than JUST range.

My vote...Setters

All breed praire AA Championships? Besides NGPDA-(not really prairies), what all breed praire AA Championships are there and how many shorthairs run in them?

NGPDA is a restricted AA- I am talking open to any breed, and as you so elegantly pointed out, not many shortneys are seen though they are more than welcome to run

We call it the All Breed, although, it is open to German pointing dogs only.

So, you're saying not many shorthairs run in these Ch, but setters do, so you can make a comparison on that? Of course there will be more setters that won within the time frame because shorthairs don't run in them, even though they can. You rarely see a shorthair in a pointer/setter trial. That's your venue we let you have your fun. We dominate everything else so we'll leave a little something for you.

[Wagonmaster]

You also rarely see a setter in a prairie all age trial, so what's the question. Yes there are one or two. The last setter to win Ames was 1970, that's forty years ago. So don't start using the prairie all age or pointer/setter all age trials as a yardstick, the number of setters that are competitive in that venue is tiny compared to the number of dogs in the breed. Not meant by any stretch to demean the few great setters that do compete there, but we are talking averages here, and they don't exactly overwhelm the AA competition. One might say that on average, they are a nonfactor.

What I said stands. On average, and in terms of range, the GSP and the setter are a horse apiece.

Now temperamentally, well that is a different issue. Let's just say that setters and blondes have alot in common.

[mudhunter]

Some very experienced field trial trainers that I have talked to say a Setter has more potential to become a run off than any other breed including pointers.

[larue]

I dont know anything about setters,but to call an all age gsp a walking anything means you have better be one fast walker.I am not saying that gundog/shooting dog gsp's dont win all age stakes,but when you see a gsp who is only seen at extreme range ever 8 minutes or so while on a horse,I doubt you could walk it and get anything done.My eva bitch who I consider a tweener can push out to 3/4 of a section out west and more at times.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
This particular friendly arguement has been going on for many years now, however long ago the GSP was a German Versatile dog used for foot hunting all different kinds of Game and birds, the Setter originally was used for setting birds for the master net. Both have evolved into different kinds of hunting animals and depending on the line either can become independent hunting machines, or companion hunters depending on the developed breed line. FT type Setters can run very big as independent hunters, Ryman type Setters are bred for the walking Grouse hunter. There are both types of GSP lines also. No longer can a blanket statement be made that the ES is the larger running dog. However when talking about the real German GSP with KS certification, the ES is a much bigger running dog. The American version of the GSP can be either a big running dog or a companion foot hunting dog, same as the ES. Now breed line determines genetic imprint, and the dogs preform according to how they are bred, and for what purpose.
RGD/Dave

[Wagonmaster]

Entirely true. You can see examples of every kind of range in both breeds, setters and GSP's. Same with all the other pointing breeds.

On larue's post about walking and AA being contradictory, it again depends on what breeding or line you want. There are some AA breeders/owners who have and want dogs that just run. They can get some placements on them by going to trials and courses, typically AKC type trials but not solely, where so many birds are planted that a dog has to actually ignore them in order not to have a point. The dog runs such a course, stumbles on one bird, and we have an AA. Or you can view the AA as the ultimate bird dog, the dog that when birds are too plentiful, will not show you alot of range because it never gets a chance to. But where birds are not plentiful it will go wherever it needs to in order to find you birds. That might be two or three treelines over, or you are hunting in North Dakota and the dog is checking out Montana. But that bird dog will always find something for you. It will also be a foot hunters dog. Too many people pick type A because they don't know any better. or are more into trialing than hunting. Type B is the true AA, and not common.

On the post about runoffs, I stand by my comment about setters and blondes, because blondes do too.

[hpvizslas]

I thought a GSP was just a pointer with a docked tail?? Where is the argument at?

[DGFavor]

a big running dog to hunt the wide open spaces out west.

You don't need a big ranging dog to find birds out west - I've always managed to find plenty of birds with boot licker GSP's:

http://www.vimeo.com/18415366

[kbshorthairs]

Don't you hate it when you have to get the tracker out for those dang bootlickers? Where was your horse Doc????? I was out of breath just watching the video!!!

[PntrRookie]

I was out of breath just watching the video!

Yeah I thought you WERE on a horse as fast as you were huffin' it!

[BoJack]

Maybe percentage wise Setters and Pointers may range bigger,but it's the Dog not the Breed.Been a Setter and Pointer man since the early 70's.Have you ver seen Bruce Shaffer's(breeder of your Cash dog) dog Dalin on the ground? He'd give any Pointer or Setter a run for their money and make any judge sit up in the saddle.A dog with Brains,Whatever breed, should adapt to whatever type of country they're hunting.And the original question I believe was directed to Hunting,not Trialing,where alot of time a dog's range is Driven by horseback and sometimes looking like a Greyhound race.A bigger running dog will usually blow by birds that a shorter ranging dog will find.I don't mind a dog running big at times ,as long as they're Hunting while they're doing it and keeping track of me,instead of Racing to point B.

[Truthseeker]

in my experience with both breeds, on average, generally speaking, setters have a bit more "juice"

[birddogger]

Gentlemen,
This particular friendly arguement has been going on for many years now, however long ago the GSP was a German Versatile dog used for foot hunting all different kinds of Game and birds, the Setter originally was used for setting birds for the master net. Both have evolved into different kinds of hunting animals and depending on the line either can become independent hunting machines, or companion hunters depending on the developed breed line. FT type Setters can run very big as independent hunters, Ryman type Setters are bred for the walking Grouse hunter. There are both types of GSP lines also. No longer can a blanket statement be made that the ES is the larger running dog. However when talking about the real German GSP with KS certification, the ES is a much bigger running dog. The American version of the GSP can be either a big running dog or a companion foot hunting dog, same as the ES. Now breed line determines genetic imprint, and the dogs preform according to how they are bred, and for what purpose.
RGD/Dave

Very true! I can't see why it is even arguable.

Charlie

[cody]

Setters

[Wagonmaster]

Maybe percentage wise Setters and Pointers may range bigger

Well, again, you can't lump setters with pointers, with a small number of great exceptions they are not competitive against the pointers as AA's and do not have more "punch" than the modern shorthair. In fact, if you lump in the bench setters (same breed), most foot hunters would be embarrassed, as they would be if you lump in most bench shorthairs (also same breed).

There is a very wide range, from 50 yards behind you, to two miles in front, in both breeds, and everything in between.

[cody]

Well, again, you can't lump setters with pointers, with a small number of great exceptions they are not competitive against the pointers as AA's and do not have more "punch" than the modern shorthair.

Could you say that the small number of setters that are competitive against the pointers in AA is considerably larger than the number of shorthairs that are?

[OhioVizsla]

a big running dog to hunt the wide open spaces out west.

You don't need a big ranging dog to find birds out west - I've always managed to find plenty of birds with boot licker GSP's:

http://www.vimeo.com/18415366

Let's see, 4-1/2 minutes from the time the video started until you got up to the dog. My guess is (by the way you were huffing & puffing) you were walking 3 to 4 MPH. The math puts the dog from 396 to 528 yards from you when you stared the video. Dang, no wonder you have a tracker! Look's like you'll need a license in your surrounding states to be safe.

[kbshorthairs]

Yeah!!!! Doc, I think that you and John should go ahead and give me those renegades......why would anyone want a dog like Bugsy or Spot???? Jeeeeez!

[DGFavor]

Let's see, 4-1/2 minutes from the time the video started until you got up to the dog. My guess is (by the way you were huffing & puffing) you were walking 3 to 4 MPH. The math puts the dog from 396 to 528 yards from you when you stared the video. Dang, no wonder you have a tracker! Look's like you'll need a license in your surrounding states to be safe

Haha, I wish!! Vimeo only let me put up 5" of the video! I had about 12" of video total from when I decided to turn it on tracking him down. And I was joggin' most of it after my receiver started shutting off on me due to low battery. He was, western speakin', out there! Here's the same dog on the Garmin at the same spot last year - the farthest I have ever gotten the Garmin to maintain contact:


Here's a 350yd'r...as the crow flies :


For the setter guys...gotta be careful not to just trip right over 'em but they take a nice picture!!:





I've hunted/trained/trialed/competed with a lot of both breeds and I'd say it's sixxes really - depends mostly on the dog, how you bring 'em along, what you let 'em do, expose 'em to, etc. I prefer GSP's for what I do because I believe they're better natural retrievers and the lines I like I think are good tough western dogs. I haven't found setters to be as tough personally - and concede all exceptions to "rule" of course.

[rkappes]

a big running dog to hunt the wide open spaces out west.

You don't need a big ranging dog to find birds out west - I've always managed to find plenty of birds with boot licker GSP's:

http://www.vimeo.com/18415366

DGFavor - You sure have some great pics/videos!!!!