FFing

[Birddogz]

Why does it seem so many are against FFing their dogs? I'm just curious. I think it really does away with any retrieving problems, and I have never had it cause any regressions in my dogs. I haven't trained nearly as many dogs as some of you on here, I'm just curious as to the apprehension by some. I like to FF at 1 year.

[kensfishing]

One it's called biddable breeding. I've only had to FF one of my 14 dogs. It was a different situation for the dog. I encourage young dogs to retieve at a very young age and keep it going. My FC/AFC dogs have never been FF and I've never had him not retieve a bird ever. I just had a young male get his first wild pheasant yesterday and the retrieve was absoulty great to hand and he was happy. Trying to get the picture off my computer to post it. I know several pros that will do it only to dogs that need it. I've also watched many pros that can't get it done, but look at the number of dogs they train.

[Birddogz]

Most of my dogs do it without ffing, but I FF for the tough birds. A bird that falls in quarter inch of ice and a dog knows they will get cold, etc. It is more of a control issue. I find that FFing makes them understand who is the boss also. After FF it seems to "mature" them. Like a teenager who enters the military as an immature child, and after 1 year in the service changes significantly.

[kensfishing]

My dogs have only one BOSS me. They know it without being tough on them. Like I said, I've never had them refuse a retrieve, but I've got pointers and ice, dogs and me don't really get along. In fact I hate this cold weather here in Iowa. Can't wait to get back to Az. spring.

[topher40]

I FF ALL my dogs, they will quit you at some point. It surely doesnt hurt anything and I have even FF'd dogs before breaking them. There is something about it that builds confidence.

[kensfishing]

I've never had a dog quit me. I've won too many trials with the retrieve alone.

[Dave Quindt]

I've never had a dog quit me. I've won too many trials with the retrieve alone.

Given the standards of retrieving at our trials, and the low overall "degree of difficulty" I'm not sure I'd brag too much

I look for dogs with a high degree of biddability, intelligence and trainability, along with natural retrieve. I FF all of my dogs for the same reason I teach whoa to each of my dogs, even though they can stand still perfectly on their own; I want the dog to be clear that the action is the result of a command, not a request.

For me, FF in the manner I use it has more to do with core obedience training than actual retrieving. I've found that with smart dogs, FF'ing a dog first makes breaking out easier.

I use FF proactively as part of the normal training process, and it's done at the same time other yard and field work is under way. I don't use FF reactively; using FF to fix a problem already created in the dog. Understanding the differences between the approaches is key, IMO.

JMO,
Dave

[Chukar12]

Dave,

Can FF help a fix a dog where you migt not know how a particular problem is created? In example, I have a female I bought at 3 years old. Steady with a collar and hunting, but trial wise, I didn't train her so figuring out why is a mystery for me. I have tried a plethora of things with some improvement but always a slide back. I spent the last 6 weeks on FF and though I haven't entered her again and may not until spring, all things seem to be clicking between us better now.

[topher40]

Dave,

Can FF help a fix a dog where you migt not know how a particular problem is created? In example, I have a female I bought at 3 years old. Steady with a collar and hunting, but trial wise, I didn't train her so figuring out why is a mystery for me. I have tried a plethora of things with some improvement but always a slide back. I spent the last 6 weeks on FF and though I haven't entered her again and may not until spring, all things seem to be clicking between us better now.

Wow, she is learning more than just FF and being more receptive? They tend to build confidence also.............

[Dave Quindt]

Dave,

Can FF help a fix a dog where you migt not know how a particular problem is created?

FF can certainly be used to solve problems. Whether it can be used to solve a problem with an unknown cause I guess depends on that cause! I can tell you that trying to FF a dog that someone has already started to FF and given up can often be impossible to correctly finish without ruining the dog.

Where I was going with all of this is that IMO there's two approaches to FF; proactive and reactive. Most folks think only of the reactive approach; the dog doesn't retrieve naturally so you must FORCE them to FETCH. To them, FF is the training technique used to solve poor breeding. Proactive FF is a whole other approach, but uses the same FF technique; here FF is more about obedience training and "learning how to learn" than actual retrieving.

I've heard a number of pointing breed pros say "I'd never run or breed to a dog that I had to FF. What's next? Are we going to have to FF retrievers" when FF is a core process in every established retriever training program out there, in great part because they see it as a proactive training process.

JMO,
Dave

[kensfishing]

I breed my shorthairs with natural retrieving. I will not go outside to other dogs that do not have those skills, all of my dogs are more than willing to retrieve. I had problems with one dog and it was a pro that had him messed up. He loves to retrieve. Like I said it's a breedable program with shorthairs. I've watched too many dogs on the circuit that had to be FF and most of them still can't do it right. But Dave you're right about Retrievers, it should and better be bred into them. If I have to FF I can do it. As far as you watching dogs retrieve at trials there is exceptions to the rule.

[Chukar12]

Wow, she is learning more than just FF and being more receptive?

well...she is certainly learning that her options are a lot more limited than she wanted to believe.

[Winchey]

I don't because I haven't found it neccesary yet. One of my dogs simply doesn't get cold and loves carrying everything no matter how awkward, heavy or useless the object may be, and the other one is a compulsive retriever who has generally brought everything back to hand from the time he got out of the airline crate. He does get cold but has the mentality that he would rather die then leave a duck or goose out there in the icy water and he is barely 1. We are working at some things right now to ensure perfect delivery and stuff, which i consider obedience not ff. As for balking at a retrieve, can't see it ever being an issue.

[pointshootretrieve]

The choice is yours to make. I cannot believe that claim of dogs never letting you down is true, Sorry. You either don't get out much or have to be the luckiest person on earth and should start playing the lottery. I agree that we should be focusing our breedings on dogs that are strong natural retrievers with nice mouths, however even with these type of dogs I would still go through my FF. When you don't force fetch you have nothing to make the dog complete the task, they either do it or not and if they don't you have to pick up your game, some will accept this others will not. IMO it is unacceptable for any dog to leave game behind, FF em!

[ezzy333]

How many of you go through force point training? Makes no difference if the dog points naturally or not, the dog just works better and more reliable if they point when told rather than just when they want to. Plus it gives them more confidence and they know who is boss. I do understand the pros as well as the cons of FF and I will still come down on the side it is and should be bred for just like point and dogs judged accordingly. Will a dog miss a retrieve if not FF'd? Might since they are dogs and not robots. But if its important to you to FF your dog its OK with me but I'm still insisting on the natural retrieve just as much as the natural point.

Whatever trips your trigger,

Ezzy

[kensfishing]

The choice is yours to make. I cannot believe that claim of dogs never letting you down is true, Sorry. You either don't get out much or have to be the luckiest person on earth and should start playing the lottery. I agree that we should be focusing our breedings on dogs that are strong natural retrievers with nice mouths, however even with these type of dogs I would still go through my FF. When you don't force fetch you have nothing to make the dog complete the task, they either do it or not and if they don't you have to pick up your game, some will accept this others will not. IMO it is unacceptable for any dog to leave game behind, FF em!

I've owned dogs for almost 40 years now and travel most of the U.S. either hunting or trialing. Not so much now living in no mans land, but the point is I breed for the natural ability of the dogs. Look at my pedigrees or my suscess at trialing as an Amt. To finish dogs on any scale takes luck and desire.. . If the dog doesn't have the desire to hunt or retrieve what good does it do us to breed. I breed for the dog to what it was bred to do. I will do it if it calls for it. Like I said, I've finished dogs on both sides without FF.

[Winchey]

PSR

Don't get me wrong, i am certainly not saying my way is better, I don't have enough experience to say that and my dogs certainly are not even close to the best. As for enforcing the command, I teach the dog what fetch means, they know "bleep" well what they are supposed to do, and you can enforce it the same as any other command. I simply do not use a typical ff regimen and haven't really needed to thus far. The only problem I have with ff is that it comes off as something you do for a month or so and then your dog is a perfect retriever for life. It is not magic, not that you said it is.

[Birddogz]

One thing I will say is that in my experience a dog that is very mentally strong with a lot of desire will FF without a hitch. I like dogs that can take pressure. My old female Brit is softer. She is a bird finding machine, and will retrieve all wounded and most killed roosters. Sometimes though, she just bites the bird and brings it back about half way, and looks at me like, come get it. I don't lose many birds, but that urks me. She seems to be getting worse in the last couple of years. She also won't play fetch. She only cares about real birds. She is the only dog I did not FF. Now, do I lose any more game because of that, no. I just like it in my hand quickly. My DD is a machine. She retrieves at 100 mph there and back, so my ole girl doesn't get many opportunities. This may be why she has started to be a little slack in this area. My DD could learn a few things about wild phez from her though. To each his own, but I love FF.

[Blue Briar]

I've never had a dog quit me. I've won too many trials with the retrieve alone.

Given the standards of retrieving at our trials, and the low overall "degree of difficulty" I'm not sure I'd brag too much

I look for dogs with a high degree of biddability, intelligence and trainability, along with natural retrieve. I FF all of my dogs for the same reason I teach whoa to each of my dogs, even though they can stand still perfectly on their own; I want the dog to be clear that the action is the result of a command, not a request.

For me, FF in the manner I use it has more to do with core obedience training than actual retrieving. I've found that with smart dogs, FF'ing a dog first makes breaking out easier.

I use FF proactively as part of the normal training process, and it's done at the same time other yard and field work is under way. I don't use FF reactively; using FF to fix a problem already created in the dog. Understanding the differences between the approaches is key, IMO.

JMO,
Dave

Well said!

[scott townsend]

I've never had a dog quit me. I've won too many trials with the retrieve alone.

Given the standards of retrieving at our trials, and the low overall "degree of difficulty" I'm not sure I'd brag too much

I look for dogs with a high degree of biddability, intelligence and trainability, along with natural retrieve. I FF all of my dogs for the same reason I teach whoa to each of my dogs, even though they can stand still perfectly on their own; I want the dog to be clear that the action is the result of a command, not a request.

For me, FF in the manner I use it has more to do with core obedience training than actual retrieving. I've found that with smart dogs, FF'ing a dog first makes breaking out easier.

I use FF proactively as part of the normal training process, and it's done at the same time other yard and field work is under way. I don't use FF reactively; using FF to fix a problem already created in the dog. Understanding the differences between the approaches is key, IMO.

JMO,
Dave

Well said!

X 2, Spot on Dave.
Had the opportunity to go watch the AKC Gun Dog retrieving stakes.there were six or seven dogs that got called back for the retrieve. I was absolutely amazed at what they accepted for a retrieve.I watched dogs drop the bird 5 and 6 times, pick up the bird and go the wrong direction, you name it. Only one failed, it was because he refused to pick up the bird. All others passed. If that is what the standard has been reduced to they need to just do away with the retrieve. It was a pathetic display of retrieving.Yet accepted by the judges.

[kensfishing]

What AKC gun dog stake? Where? If it was the Nationals they shoot the first bird on course so if you're not on horseback you won't see anything. As far a a local trial, I agree. some of the dogs put on the ground are just flat sickening. Someone said I must not get out much. I judged over 100 dogs last year alone at trials. I know what passes and what doen't. I've watched some of the pros run dogs and get lucky. I don't buy it, but some judges judge dogs on the course and the retrieve is secondary. I don't buy it either. I have the opportunity to train with some of the best on the circuit and not all of them FF dogs. They either have it or they don't. The problems come from the man made aspect of owning a young dog. They create the problem by taking something away or better yet, let another older dog take it away. Sooner or later the young dog says enough. Today most people are breeding dogs that have that so called cracking tail as they run. Most dogs do. Or they look at the 12 o'clock tail. They fail to realize they're taking something away from our Shorthairs. The natural ability to do what they were bred for. Point, backing, retrieving. I guess in some way I also FF but without forcing them to do anything that they don't want to do. I encourage retrieving a very young age and keep it going they life span. They are more than willing to do it. So I guess it's FF without the forcing. FF is to make a dog do something they don't want to. Just like when you were kids and your parents making you do something you don't think you should. And you can't tell me you still do it. Like eating some vegs that you really hate. Or beening home at a special time. Most of the old timers have the notion that's the way I was taught and that's the only way to do it. Wrong. We need to get back to what works, breeding the way it's should be. That's just my way of thinking. I'm not against it, but if it isn't broke, don't fix it.

[Birddogz]

I disagree, in my experience FF increases drive to retrieve. It just doesn't allow a dog to have an opinion on the subject.

[kensfishing]

Tell you what. I defy anyone to say my dogs don't have the desire to retrieve a bird. Just plain fact. Like I said most of the people on this site have closed ideas about how they were taught. That's what makes the differnence between people. We still disagree. You really need to watch some good dogs at work.

[Truthseeker]

your dog doesnt have the desire to retrieve a bird. there i said it, now what.

[kensfishing]

your dog doesnt have the desire to retrieve a bird. there i said it, now what.

So you did. I guess FF is like work. We don't like to do but we have to even if we hate it. So making a dog retrieve something he doesn't like how can we make them have more desire? If the dog loves to retrieve and we give him more, the more desire he has. That's the point of this subject, isn't it.

[Birddogz]

Tell you what. I defy anyone to say my dogs don't have the desire to retrieve a bird. Just plain fact. Like I said most of the people on this site have closed ideas about how they were taught. That's what makes the differnence between people. We still disagree. You really need to watch some good dogs at work.

I'm not saying your dogs don't retrieve. I'm sure they do. I just like to FF to make it a command. It isn't a necessity.

[kensfishing]

your dog doesnt have the desire to retrieve a bird. there i said it, now what.

There are tons of dogs that have all the natural retrieve in the world, but are still FF'd. I put my hand down for a water blind and send that FF'd dog he's gonna get his a@s moving. I send a dog on a duck search in a nasty s#@t hole pond and he'll keep on digging and won't turn back . All becauce of FF, driving to the pile and to the water. Non FF dogs could shut down and turn back. The retrieve to the non ff is option not a must in those curcumstances. To many times I've watched non FF dog shut down and not expand on a duck search.

I don't water fowl hunt and never will. I have the attitude is I won't do it why make the dog. How cold is the water.

[kensfishing]

Yes it's like the people around here saying GSP's don't like water. You can't keep mine out of it, but there is a limit to what I will hunt my dogs in temp wise. I used to waterfowl hunt back in the 70's but I just got fed up with waiting for birds when I could go find them. I hate waiting for something to happen, I like making it happen.