Grouse in southern App.

[Birddogz]

Why is it that PA,NY,VT,ME,NH seem to have stable populations of grouse, yet OH,KY,WV,TN,NC,VA, grouse numbers are awful. What gives?

[mcbosco]

Eastern populations might be stable but they are down close to 80% in the past 20 years.

[Birddogz]

Why? The Cover in Southern Ohio where I used to hunt has changed some, but recent ice storms have created ridiculous amounts of blow downs, and there are still lots of old strip mines with ideal cover. Meanwhile, WI,MN, and Michigan enjoy very healthy populations. It has to be a disease or something.

[AHGSP]

My guesses where the numbers are low would be; aging covers with less contiguous early successional habitat; perhaps increased predation from higher numbers of Fox, Bobcat, Mink, etc... due to lack of trapping; increased numbers of nest raiders such as Possum and Coon again due to less trapping efforts; ridiculous numbers of feral house cats; increased numbers of Raptors; throw in some tough, wet Spring hatch weather, poor management on the part of many State Wildlife agencies that have shifted management to the primary money makers like Deer and Turkey, throw in a few other things that are escaping me off the top of my head right now and you have a recipe for disaster.

On the other hand, there are many places in Appalachia where you can have flush rates that compare to the traditional Grouse States like MI, WIS, MN; but things I note in some of these places are they tend to have exactly the opposite from the situations described above. As an example, some of my best spots have huge amounts of land, public and private; where between timber cutting, mine reclamation and Mother Natures temper tantrums with ice storms; we have lots of contiguous acres of early successional habitat. Due to increasing numbers of predators such as Coyote and Bear, we have much lower numbers of Fox, cats, etc... Given great cover in large tracts, the Raptors seem to do far less damage due to less visibility of the birds in the higher stem density cover. Given the addition of great food, I have no complaints with the Grouse hunting available to me, but of course would always love to see it even better.

As an aside, it takes boot leather to find the birds and you won't find them if you're not out there looking for them and trying to develop new covers. I'll typically hunt a proven producer for part of a day for the sake and sanity of the dogs and then go looking into new covers for the other part of the day, doing scouting runs.

[Birddogz]

I know guys who hunt for 6 hours in SE OH and flush 1-2 birds. In that same area 20 years ago they would flush at least 30.

[AHGSP]

I know guys who hunt for 6 hours in SE OH and flush 1-2 birds. In that same area 20 years agothey would flush at least 30.

And therein I suspect, lies the problem. Cover changes/ages a lot in 20 years....

Howie,
Yes and No. Yes on all accounts except, in Appalachia, we are not as subject to a "Cycle" per se, as what is commonly known up your way. I'm good friends with one of the Bio's that took part in the Appalachian Cooperative Grouse Research Project that included, I think, a half dozen Appalachian States and one of their findings was, that we don't really have a cycle to speak of. I'll see if I can't find a copy or get Harry to send me a link or electronic copy of the Studies findings to post. Some very good info for a Grouse hunter in these parts. I had it saved on the hard drives of my tower that smoked this past Spring and until I can recover my data that is on them, welllll............

[AHGSP]

A quick Google brought up this, which should be a good starting point for anyone that is interested:
http://www.nbii.gov/portal/server.pt?op ... ached=true

[redman25]

I'm from Southern WV, and numbers are definitely not what they were in the 80's or early 90's. Strip mining reclamation and logging operations have helped to bring numbers back up in the last 10 years or so, but nothing like I saw as a kid. IMHO, when coyotes showed up on the scene in the early 90's, things went downhill fast. Grouse, turkey, rabbit, etc.... took a huge dive. They are as bad as ever in my home region, and like AHGSP stated, it's best to hunt you're proven pockets and then branch out in hopes of another bird or two. There's no more walking a single strip bench all day and flushing birds the whole way. Gotta take what you can get where you KNOW you can get it.

[Birddogz]

I know guys who hunt for 6 hours in SE OH and flush 1-2 birds. In that same area 20 years agothey would flush at least 30.

And therein I suspect, lies the problem. Cover changes/ages a lot in 20 years....

Howie,
Yes and No. Yes on all accounts except, in Appalachia, we are not as subject to a "Cycle" per se, as what is commonly known up your way. I'm good friends with one of the Bio's that took part in the Appalachian Cooperative Grouse Research Project that included, I think, a half dozen Appalachian States and one of their findings was, that we don't really have a cycle to speak of. I'll see if I can't find a copy or get Harry to send me a link or electronic copy of the Studies findings to post. Some very good info for a Grouse hunter in these parts. I had it saved on the hard drives of my tower that smoked this past Spring and until I can recover my data that is on them, welllll............

I don't mean the EXACT same spot. I mean the same county. Hunting 4-6 year old reclaimed strip mines, and finding nothing, where as they found many 20 years ago. I don't hunt there anymore, but I have friends that do.

[redman25]

A quick Google brought up this, which should be a good starting point for anyone that is interested:
http://www.nbii.gov/portal/server.pt?op ... ached=true

Interesting read for sure. It's a bit disturbing that acorns AND cover are so important. Rarely do logging operations leave behind the all important mature oaks to go along with the successional growth. You would also think that hunters would be allowed to control the populations of these avian predators just as we are allowed to control mammalian predators through hunting and trapping. It is what it is I guess.

[BoJack]

Bruce,
Quit being so modest.I know for a fact that you were the Professor of Grouse Bird University at one time.Don't some still call you 'Ole Ruffy'

redman,
NO upland bird population anywhere is what it was in the 80's.Georgia Use to be known as the Quail Hunting Capital Of The World also,but not anymore.All over the Country-Loss of habitat,lack of farming,heavy predation etc.Bruce pretty well covers the whole picture.

[Mountaineer]

Ohio's percentage of early successional has dropped...to 3.4% or less on the Wayne NF.
No stability in Ohio populations...the decline here started in the mid 70s - 1980 and became as steep as a horse's face in 2003...and the lack of a grouse cycle has long been known once one stays away from barbershops.
The ice storm area has not responded as the experts thought it would.
I reckon it from the birds existing on a very low portion of the decline curve where many smaller factors of decline now achieve a greater significance.
One reason may be disease from the debilitating affects of West Nile to something carried by turkeys to something else entirely.
I suspect tho that the decline is caused by a perfect storm of problems...here and elsewhere.
Ground predators and raptors hurt but it is best to forget any thought of avain killing...ain't never gonna happen legally.
Ohio, tho, has a lot of perfect habitat with food...the paper mill still needs fed.
This season has seen a small blip up from good Springs and a too little, too late shortening of the ruffed grosue season but less than 1 bird per hour flush rates had me quit hunting Ohio 3 years ago after 43 Ohio seasons despite pockets of grouse still present.
In Ohio, it is extirpation and not extinction at present.

I was at the presentation of the ACGRP when acorn-beariing oaks were mentioned and have a hard copy...I actually sat beside the SELC guy....and he took copious notes of what that finding means to forest management for ruffed grouse.
That report was both good and bad.
The SELC are bad juju for ruffed grouse.

[BrassVols]

Very interesting and enlightening thread.....Thanks.

[AHGSP]

in Appalachia, we are not as subject to a "Cycle" per se, as what is commonly known up your way. I'm good friends with one of the Bio's that took part in the Appalachian Cooperative Grouse Research Project that included, I think, a half dozen Appalachian States and one of their findings was, that we don't really have a cycle to speak of.

Could this be that numbers are so low that there is no longer any evidance of a cycle. Back in the 80's and early 90's I used to do alot of guiding for the Nat . RGS headquarters and some folks from the dept. of Interior. Almost all of these folks were from Penn., WV, and Virginia. Of coarse all these folks would compare bird numbers, the great lakes region to there home areas. I would always hears how we had so many more bids in this region and cycles were opposite. They would tell me that even in low cycle we had more birds in our low vs. there high. That was 20,25 yrs. ago. Even in low cycle you can find pockets of birds that have fair numbers. At that time there concern was the dwindling number of woodcock. Man, how time changes things.

Nah, I don't think so Howie. As I mentioned earlier, I have a few private land covers where my flush rates would likely come pretty close to comparing to your flush rates and they have produced like that almost every single year for most of my Grouse hunting career, which is long enough that I should have seen several cycles if we were to have a similar cycle time frame to yours.
The habitat in these covers is optimal, mostly by Mother Natures hands(frequent ice storms, Gypsy Moth, blight, etc) with a reasonable amount of salvage timber harvesting and rotational timber harvesting as well.
Predation seems curtailed for numerous reasons being everything from stem density discouraging Raptors, to the Yotes keeping many of the lesser predators in check. Yotes will kill every Fox they can.
Something else I am left to wonder about is that the Yotes also seem to do a pretty good job of keeping Deer densities in check and decimating large Turkey flocks down to probably more reasonable numbers for the health of the habitat. While it may really peese off the avid Deer and Turkey hunter, I am honestly beginning to believe they are bringing a balance back to the ecology that has been grossly inflated beyond healthy capacity by Managers wishing to appease those who spend the most License dollars.
Something else I've noted in the case of some of these specific covers, is many are owned in huge blocks by private landowners and farmers that still manage the land for the land/timber and when you have many of these huge blocks butted up together in contiguous sections across an entire mountain, they seem to become a healthier habitat.

Perhaps Grouse numbers could be used as an indication of a healthy ecology? I dunno the answer, but often wonder.

Something else I note is in the places in Appalachia where the States/Feds have done a wonderful job of managing the overall ecology and bird numbers are really very good, they often end up in some dam magazine and end up getting the he!! pounded out of them to where one bad nesting season can spell serious decline for the next several years, until pressure lets off and the birds are able through a couple of good nesting seasons to rebound. Case in point: Canaan Valley NWR. Most serious Grouse and Woodcock hunters anywhere near these parts have heard of it. What many know is it is a great place to intercept flights. What many don't know is that until it started getting some serious recognition and in turn, pressure, it used to be an absolute Grouse nirvana as well. To give some weight to my position, I have permission to hunt "The Gates" which is literally a hop and skip away from Canaan and can put up 3 Grouse per hr as well as boatloads of Doodles during the flights. I can hunt several very similar habitats across the entire fringe within just a few miles of Canaan and will see similar flush rates in any of them, ALL privately owned in large blocks. So why so many fewer Grouse in a NWR that is managed with a very heavy influence towards such birds? I don't feel ill will towards a guy that comes looking for an opportunity to get his dog into birds in a publicly recognized place and I don't fault the States and Feds for touting a success story, but this is one of those cases where even though the ACGRP found hunting to have a negligible effect on Grouse numbers, hot spots can I believe have a serious effect on the Grouse numbers. With the States and Feds being some of the largest landowners of accessible hunting land in Appalachia, where land is shrinking to ever encroaching development and these thoughts in mind, it could certainly suggest a correlation that where they do a good job of managing, it is well known and likely pounded to the extent of non-existent birds.

I know this has gone far beyond your suggestion of cycles, but in my time I should have seen maybe 4 cycles now and am still waiting to see the first. I think what we see goes far beyond the simplicity of a cycle and as far as those folks you guided for? I can't speak for them or the time they spent, but in a normal year I'll put 50 days in easy and have put in as many as 90+ when time permitted. I feel I should have and would have recognized a cycle.

[Mountaineer]

Notice and Recognition..why am I thinking of the name Jezioro?

[BoJack]

Jezerio? Bingo! A Boob

[Mountaineer]

I would not go that far...I do believe Jezioro has a different focus than many as well as access that many do not have....or that most may find it difficult to obtain.

I also blame many magazines more than those who sell an article.

[BoJack]

blitz,
I think he was a Boob(and so do Many others) for printing That article(along with actual directions)in that Bird Dog Publication for everyone in the Country to see,and Many to come and Pound that area with hunting prerssure.And I stand by that opinion.Are you Aware of the article? If so I don't know why you would think any different then I and Many others(unless you don't hunt the area).If you aren't aware of the article then let it go.It Pi$$ed Alot of people off.Nothing personal against Frank in general,other then my opinion(and many others) about That article written by him.My apology if it ruffled your feathers.Anymore discussion can be done through PM's.My apology also for letting my lip come unzipped

[Mountaineer]

.... that Bird Dog Publication .... Many to come and Pound that area with hunting prerssure...

If you mean Pointing Dog Journal and the Canaan, then that was my note as well.
No need to be quiet about it...my letter and others to the magazine was answered with a "so what"..the magazine is known for that attitude.
Often assuming any complaints are from personal hunting spots spoiled rather than worry over a bird population impacted...all driven by greed/subscriber happiness and the mistaken thought that hunters are never, ever additiive to a gamebird decline at any point on that decline curve.
Most thinking ruffed grouse, especially, and woodcock hunters know differently in the Apps.
Refuge permits increased dramatically following that article and I believe it was ill-advised...reckon the deerhunters hated it as well.
Still, I do believe Jezioro's focus was on attention to the Refuge and keeping hunting available as hunting and NWRs do not mix well with many of the Public.
That access will never be stable.
There may have been a trade-off of sorts involved...a bad one due to the near GPS level of attention but I am willing to give Jezioro a certain amount of slack but no blanket ignoring of what hunting area notice can do to local populations.
JMHO
I would hope that many subscriptions were lost following the publication but I doubt many took that step....such is the need to kill stuff these days.

[Hookadooka BirdDogs]

In the early 90's the lower grouse populations around Ohio were being blamed at least in part on parasites. I can see parasites causing problems in a localized area, but statewide? One reason for the decline among many, I believe is the increase in deer population and to a lesser degree turkey populations. Back in 1960 only about 3000 deer were harvested in Ohio and hardly any turkeys. Grouse populations were very high at the time. Hmmm!
By the 80's, areas that contained large areas of greenbriar that provided grouse great cover and many berries to feed on were reduced by January to areas about a foot high that looked like someone used a large shears and gave the greenbriar a flat top haircut, totally removing all cover and food. This can still be found today. But you won't find birds there. Also large Turkey populations were started by bringing in turkeys from other states, such as Missouri.
I very rarely found turkeys in clearcuts, only in areas of big woods and oak forests, scratching to their hearts content. Now the cuts are full of them. This has to be detrimental to the grouse.
Also in the 90's the tree-huggers managed to stop nearly all clear cutting in the Wayne and other national forests which really hurt the grouse IMHO.The state of Ohio also had a really stupid policy of requiring strip mines to be reclaimed as grasslands, instead of tree plantings which not only help the environment but would have renewed our forestland. We now have hundreds of thousands of acres that are great for cattle, but really suck for grouse or any other animal except for maybe meadowlarks. There was no better place to find grouse than some down & dirty nasty old strip mine or silica mine. Environmentalists hated them, grouse and grouse hunters loved them.

[Birddogz]

In the early 90's the lower grouse populations around Ohio were being blamed at least in part on parasites. I can see parasites causing problems in a localized area, but statewide? One reason for the decline among many, I believe is the increase in deer population and to a lesser degree turkey populations. Back in 1960 only about 3000 deer were harvested in Ohio and hardly any turkeys. Grouse populations were very high at the time. Hmmm!
By the 80's, areas that contained large areas of greenbriar that provided grouse great cover and many berries to feed on were reduced by January to areas about a foot high that looked like someone used a large shears and gave the greenbriar a flat top haircut, totally removing all cover and food. This can still be found today. But you won't find birds there. Also large Turkey populations were started by bringing in turkeys from other states, such as Missouri.
I very rarely found turkeys in clearcuts, only in areas of big woods and oak forests, scratching to their hearts content. Now the cuts are full of them. This has to be detrimental to the grouse.
Also in the 90's the tree-huggers managed to stop nearly all clear cutting in the Wayne and other national forests which really hurt the grouse IMHO.The state of Ohio also had a really stupid policy of requiring strip mines to be reclaimed as grasslands, instead of tree plantings which not only help the environment but would have renewed our forestland. We now have hundreds of thousands of acres that are great for cattle, but really suck for grouse or any other animal except for maybe meadowlarks. There was no better place to find grouse than some down & dirty nasty old strip mine or silica mine. Environmentalists hated them, grouse and grouse hunters loved them.

Totally agree with your post, but what about the places that are ideal? That is what baffles me. Why don't they have grouse in them? Doesn't PA have a ton of turks and deer? Why do they still have grouse?

[Mountaineer]

... Doesn't PA have a ton of turks and deer? Why do they still have grouse?

Partially, the answer is snow, terrain and the volume of large tracts of cover. IMHO
Ohio coverts can often be accessed top and bottom and every day of the season.,..not so in many parts of PA.
Or WVa for that matter...obstacles lower hunter additivity...WVa does have too much poorly managed NF...IMHO.
Which is one reason of many why the season shortening of dropping February in Ohio was a great thing...still a month too long but it was a fine move.
Whether it is too late for a too slow buildup in the good cover we have now is debatable.

Deer have harmed grouse tremendously...from damage to ES; placing too many folks in the woods cavorting around and in late season especially; sucking away of DNR money, interest and energy; a growth in deer feeder numbers that keep the raccoons, etc. fat and breeding; and, especially, deer are the impetus for the wildly increasing amount of land tied up in leases.
Mead land used to be open thru original tax consideration to the Public..once the paper outfits and timber investment groups saw a new cash flow, public access left just ahead of the ruffed grouse in Ohio.
All too often lease holders set up a skirmish line grouse hunt for all the buddys after deer season...they sweep the woods and seldom know or care what they are doing.
Fact.

The grouse decline iun Ohio started waaaaay before we had turkeys.
Turkeys play a part but it is most often a small part....in a big cast.

[Dirtysailor]

While I agree with the land management and mother nature's storms. One main fact is still there, I am a trapper and like to call myself a dog man. Trappers nowadays are aware that right now are the times we will be telling our Grandkids about someday as the heyday. Predatation is huge in my opinion. Take a look around at the signs when you are out. We should all do ourselves a favor and become better outdoorsmen and women, and learn to trap these predators, the oppotunites are abound. He!! I use the money from hides to fund my dogs. Plus you will then have better knowledge on how to get your dogs loose if they are ever stuck in a trap. Also a good way to get a kid interested. Just a thought.

[Mountaineer]

...Grouse and deer have enjoyed the same habitat for many, many years in the great lakes region so why would the deer affect grouse pop. in the the Apps?

Great Lake grouse and Apps grouse are different to a degree...that being one main point that RGS often overlooks in perscriptions.
One difference being the % of fat carried into winter...Apps food is often of poor quality, comparably, and sometimes more subject to hard and soft mast failures.

As well as what I said before...Deer affect habitat differently as fenced enclosures show.
Not so sure that they do not ultimately affect a forest change over time as selective browsers.
I wish the Apps had Aspen.
I wish the Apps(Ohio) had fewer deer.

[Birddogz]

I don't think that hunting season dates have that much to do with grouse populations. When I was a boy, I hunted S.Ohio every weekend. This is in the mid-late 80s. There were good grouse numbers then, and honestly, I don't recall seeing a single other hunting party hunting grouse. I realize there were people out there, but I didn't see them. My point is, if there were few grouse hunters then, I can't imagine how few there would be now that there are so few grouse. Lastly, most guys can't hit grouse very well.

Deer cannot be the problem. They have lived with grouse for years. There are more deer in Wisconsin, PA, MN, MI, NY than in Ohio. These states also have as many or more turkeys. I understand that predators are thick, but they are also in high populations in the other states mentioned, that have good grouse populations. I just think it has to be something physiological in nature.

[Mountaineer]

The Ohio decline started about 1980ish, to me...Bobby Stull once put it at the mid-70s.
Too many folks are too late to the dance to be able to judge. :roll:
The 80s did have fair numbers....many were shooting 50 grouse a year...that was unsustainable but the barbershops reverberated with "Grouse Cycle, just wait!".....well, we're still waiting.
2000 saw an average of 3/hr moved for a friend and I with an occassional 4/hr day...in 2006 we barely moved 3/day in top cover with food...he was a forester who laid out many timber cuts.
Let me put it this way..the present young ODNR grouse guy told me that he was debating getting a grouse dog again....repeat that as necessary.
Considering that in late season one does not have to shoot a grouse to kill it ...the season had an impact.
Now, not so much as backyards have fewer birddogs.
Populations are up slightly in a blip that I believe will not last..we will see...I will wait, again.

Deer are part of the issue.
The 60s saw a building deer herd...the 50s saw a track as front page news, almost.
In 1980, I had herds numbering in the low 20s routinely in the fields on my place...now there are fewer, thank god.
Deer feeders are a bad, bad deal....a neighbor lady 1/4 mile away and I had an unofficial contest re raccoons...she won with 28..I lost with 24...they were still thick.

People need to accept that ruffed grouse decline issues are wide...there is no single black hat out there now...never really was....the population was simply able to absorb more problems...much as areas of the Great Lakes and PA does now.
Re PA, many areas are really more joined to the GLs than the Apps....not all, but many.

[its the dog]

What are the differences in grouse habitat and turkey habitat.

[Mountaineer]

Yes, indeedy gpblitz...and I suppose I should acknowledge that Ohio is NOT in the southern apps...just that Ohio was mentioned in this thread with some incorrect conclusions drawn.

Difference between grouse and deer habitat?...only my opinion but I would say little...to a certain degree and to an inexperienced eye.
However, deer can easily live in top grouse cover for part of their needs but grouse can not live in all deer cover or deer cover that is heavily browsed.
Deer use pastures, fields, backyards, interstate highway medians...grouse use those areas less...they live best in ES alone.
As that growth stage is constantly changing, they need constant creation of cover.
Deer can speed up the degradation of grouse cover in the Apps...they have.
This is not so simple an issue as Habitat...especially now.

[Hookadooka BirdDogs]

I know there are endless possibilities as to grouse population declines, but one area I have never heard mentioned is the use of ATV,s, both legally and illegally on state, national, and coal lands. Maybe it's my over active imagination or the fact that at my status as an active senior citizen, I still enjoy a romp on foot out there in the out there. I can name at least 6 areas that were prime grouse coverts until the ATV trails started appearing. I really believe it does something to affect the grouse's sanity if you will, causing them to leave good cover and relocate. I know it bugs me to have to call my dogs in while two or three folks go racing by. The reason I took up Grouse hunting in the first place was for the solitude and safety of my dogs.

Also for the few guys that were able to have good grouse totals there were tons more that only got two or three per season. The higher totals were from guys that got out a lot, hunted the good cover, hunted deeper in the woods, and were in good enough shape to really put em up and lay em down, and spent the necessary time to produce a good grouse dog. As in everything, it's what you put into your sport that gets good returns.

[Mountaineer]

... As in everything, it's what you put into your sport that gets good returns.

Yes, to a point....but more effort now will not reap dividends with ruffed grouse contacts in Ohio or in many other portions of the range.
We must hit the SuperSlab for that withdrawl....for me, it was 18 hours of driving West last week.

As far as the ATVs H...I mentioned increased activity in the woods from deer hunters...that includes all forms of travel by many folks.
Flushing birds opens them to raptors...only significant on covert basis perhaps but add up too many coverts and the effect will be felt.
On the other hand, Marcellus and timber will create cover along with noise.
Trade-offs, again.

Actually, many grouse populations were unnaturally high in the Apps...we can never go back to those days but proper management of ES could help with levels sufficient to make one feel less quilty about tapping a trigger.
It is all about a healthy and proper balance in the woodlands and a concern for a species past a tailgate.
IMHO

Yes on edge...we all know grouse like sunlight to hit the forest floor or edge but you will rarely see one in the middle of a large field nipping leaves...deer have little to fear, comparably, most of the year in any area.
And during the displacement period, one can find grouse in the oddest places.

[BigShooter]

I know there are endless possibilities as to grouse population declines, but one area I have never heard mentioned is the use of ATVs, both legally and illegally on state, national, and coal lands.

I didn't look at this thread until now because the title talks about So. App. Our grouse in northern MN took a steep decline as soon as ATVs became popular. We started seeing ATV hunters all over and many hunters were deep in the woods where we had never seen hunters before. Our relatives that had ATVs were telling us how great they were & how they were filling out easily riding ATVs. Although it is illegal to shoot off of an ATV there were reports of many hunters doing it because they were off the gravel roads, deep in the woods and didn't fear being discovered. A lot more off-road, road hunting going on.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
Got to admit this year the northern tier of Pa has a very good Grouse population, the southern tier in Somerset, Fayette and Westmoreland did not
fair so well however, cause the Grouse population is definitely way down in SW Pa. Don't know why Frank J saw fit to write such exacting location info in his article,
have known him to be a real decent sportman thru the years. The WV Grouse population has definitely crashed for some unknown reason. Pa's Grouse population is good because of the massive SGL, SFL, along with the private Forests that are managed properly. Our down fall is our States massive predator problems, until the State has the guts to address them, Pa will never have the Grouse numbers it did from the 40's thru the 70's. States like OH may never recover when it comes to a Grouse population, the lack of proper Forest management, influx of Deer & Turkey and problems with tree huggers has devistated OH sportsman. I actually feel sorry for them and we have many of these sportman who come to our Pa mountains each year. For the most part they are good sportman, who are greatful for a decent place to Grouse hunt. Now that Eric Miller is the new Pa, SGL head Biologist we are hopeful that Erics knowledge of both Grouse and Woodcock, will grow our Pa Grouse & Woodcock habitat and bird numbers. We do have some political problems going on also,
there seems to be massive money missing from the SGL timber lumbering projects. Our new Governor who is sportsman friendly, might be able to help the PGC recover
some of its missing timber money, and appoint a new PGC director as soon as possible.
RGD/Dave

[rolawson]

Here we had several bad hatch years. All the above problems mentioned above add to the low numbers. If you throw in the natural diseases, such as west nile virus and avian pox it is a steep up hill battle. What research I have done on avian pox, it will wipe out 50% of the population when it hits. So if you start out with very low numbers and this hits, it will take years to recover. I still have my figers crossed that they will make a come back.

[GUNSMOKE]

Why is some states better than others for Partridge hunting? Can you say LOGGING PRACTICES. Wherever it is good that state has a viable logging industry, that provides regeneration of young growth every couple of years. It ain't rocket science. PA hunters know one thing and one thing only DEER that's what makes them money Eric will never change that either. I worked with Gary Alt when he headed the Bear program in that state of PA they asked him to fix the herd but didn't want to do what he thought needed to be done. I think Eric maybe whizzing up the perverbial rope

[AHGSP]

Thought I'd throw out a little teaser....

I got out last weekend for a couple hours in XYZ, translated that would be WestVirginMaryPennsylTucky, in a cover that has been treating me very well for most of my life. The cover has "affectionately" been named "He!!" by the few I've allowed to hunt it with me and is as brutal as they come. 45-80 degree slopes of rockslide, cliff face and tangle, with the occasional much sought after skid trail. Since it was just me, myself and I; I chose to put 2 dogs on the ground. I had 11 flushes in the first hour and took a pair over two points, one by my 4 yr. old Gyp Doodle and one by my 8 month old pup Rip. Called a friend that was supposed to join me with 2 others, to give him a report and ended up banging his phone about every 10-15 minutes with updates on additional flushes, as I decided to load my gun with a "popper round" that fires 209's and let the dogs get some work in and myself get a little peace in my soul. We ended up with 22 flushes in 2-2 1/2 hours and only covered about a 1/4th of this particular piece of the cover. Some "bleep" bailed out on us, which was probably in his best interest for self preservation; a Southern Gent from KY excused himself from making it up and my friend twisted a knee the day before; so I can only imagine what we could have done with 4 or 5 dogs down and 4 hunters. It would have been like kicking the doors in and tossing a grenade I'm sure.






This begs the bigger question though; What does this cover have, or not have, that makes it so much better than many?
It has Coyotes, which play heck on the Fox, Turkey and Deer, or anything else of opportunity for that matter; but there is certainly no lack of Deer and I've filled many a freezer with Venison from this range throughout my life. Turkeys are not as prevalent as they once were due in large part I believe to the Yotes, but there are still plenty of Turkeys to be found. I did see quite a few Bunny tracks in the snow, which was a bit of a surprise and even managed to jump one up for the pup to give a short chase, which makes me question why are there now more Bunnies coming back than what have been there in many, many years. The food sources and shelter are no different than many an Appalachian cover, Grape, Greenbriar, Cherry, Witch Hazel, Acorns, Berry Canes, Partridgeberry, etc..... Two things obvious to me that make it different are; it is near vertical and "bleep" treacherous with rocks, blowdowns and tangle and I am the only Grouse hunter on it, but it gets pushed VERY hard by the local Deer hunters and I know they move the birds around a lot. This question has had me scratching my head for a few years now.....

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Nice Bruce I use to have a similar spot here in Ohio though probably not that rough a country but the birds were there.
My brother in law now has a log house on those grounds overlooking the Oh River.

[Mountaineer]

....This begs the bigger question though; What does this cover have, or not have, that makes it so much better than many?...

Possibly, it has tougher access and so less hunter additivity.

Roughly 40% of Ohio's grouse were taken in Feb...that is why they shortened the season..too late.
January and February are the killing months for ruffed grouse...always has been in the Apps.
Pockets of Grouse remain in Ohio, some in near verticle cover and some in the top habitat only a paper mill can provide.
Good luck with your pocket.

[Hookadooka BirdDogs]

A quick Google brought up this, which should be a good starting point for anyone that is interested:
http://www.nbii.gov/portal/server.pt?op ... ached=true

Because of budget cuts in Obama 2012 budget cuts nbii.gov is no longer on the internet. Vote anyone but Obama.