Field Trialers and What to Do About Them

[Chukar12]

So the best nose on an English Pointer thread was wild and winding, and rather than add my essay ... I started a new thread for my rant.

The best, mediocre and worst meat dogs in the country are rarely for sale as the measurement of their worth is the subjective view as seen through a loving owner's eyes. It is the reason most of us own a dog. A few impassioned individuals cannot stand outside the fire and insist on getting the most from the relationship with the dog and the sport and they involve themselves at a greater and more integrated level than a personal one. They subject, their dogs, their breeding, and their training to the objective view of others, and have been doing so for 150 years.

All games are designed for entertainment and simulation for the way many of us choose to hunt and the dogs are trained and or broke to equal the rules of that game. This means that some diversify the upland experience to include water, waterfowl, tracking etc.. . The horseback trials are certainly designed to assimilate the pointing dog purist. I apologize for the need to generalize but most horseback trial participants are more interested in dog breeding, behaviors and training than the killing of game.

In my opinion this competitive environment is why nearly all pointers and setters and a good many continental breeds are based on horseback field trial lines. The dogs must have drive, desire and stamina to handle at great distances, their manners and their style have to be impeccable on birds. AF leaves out the retrieving, as do most Brittany folks, while many other continentals do not. Why? Safety, PETA, conservation, tradition, so on and so forth...all are reasonable arguments, the point is in my opinion it really doesn't matter. If a dog can do all it is asked to compete at the high levels of a horseback field trial it can be taught to retrieve.

Most hunters seek titled dogs to get their puppies from. They have more options of venues in years past and that should be considered a good thing. The important thing should be acknowledgement and unity in the factions of the sport as survival of the shooting sports will be dependent on it. Field trialers aren't touchy or elitist, why would they be and about what? Would you say the same thing if they dedicated a great deal of time and effort to aggressively pointing out the faults of your pheasant, chukar, quail or grouse dog? Probably not...you would probably prefer that they just let you enjoy your dog.

[tommyboy72]

Since you are speaking about my post in the other topic I hope you do not mind me commenting on this one. I commend your call for trialers to stop arguing one venue over another and to come together for the betterment of upland hunting and dogs. I would also welcome constructive criticism of my dog as well or most likely my shortcomings as a trainer. I would also welcome members of the forum to hunt with me with one of their dogs and see that my untitled "meat" dog can hunt with some of the best trial dogs except with my dogs I don't have to walk over and pick up the birds they are brought to me.

As far as me saying you were elitist that was probably a bit over the top and I apologize but as far as being touchy, the jury is still out on that one. After all you did start a whole new topic with a rather lengthy essay. If you ever make it to western Oklahoma during pheasant or quail season you are more than welcome to stop in and hunt with me and I promise not to critique your dog.

[Winchey]

I agree with the retrieving thing. Any dog can be taught to fetch a shot upland bird, it is not a huge accomplishment. Not saying I don't want my dog to retrieve, I hunt ducks and geese as much as I hunt grouse and the dog needs to love that job to be good at it and willing to perservere on blinds in crappy conditions, bogs, swamps, cold water with strong currents etc... I can't have a lot of dogs do to circumstances so I had to get a versatile if I wanted to hunt upland with a pointer and have a good duck dog. When circumstances allow I will probably have a setter and a golden, because as good as he is, he is not as good as a feild trial setter at upland or a feild trial lab in the retreiving department, I may keep an SM around as well because I like them. Anyways I am rambling. There are many different venues, none of them really suit my dog, and I don't want to change them, I think anything that resembles hunting with dogs is bound to be a good time. I like the thought of the AA horseback events. While training is a big part of it, you cannot possibly win unless you have a truly special dog, because they judge so heavily on specific inherited ability. It doesen't meen these dogs can't retrieve or behave or whatever. What I am trying to say is that testing and hunting proves very little about the dog and has a ton to do with the trainer and handler, where the trials while still about handling and training are really more about showing which dog really is the best at finding birds and looking "bleep" good while doing it and being the true elite athletes, rather than the semi pros that are just lacking something. Saying my hunting dog is better than the elite trial dogs is like saying, yha I am better than Peyton Manning, but you will just have to take my word for it. Wow, I can barely form a coherant thought these day's, too much dog stuff.

[birddogger]

Field trialers aren't touchy or elitist,

Some of them are IMO.

Charlie

[Yawallac]

I was touchy and elitist before I ever owned a bird dog.

[JKP]

I will defend to the max anyone that is willing to put his/her dog to the test. Field trialing has profited every breed but it is not the only way to produce excellent dogs. IMO, field trialers are incapable of discussing honestly the strengths and weaknesses of what they do. As a Vdog owner, FT just doesn't tell me enough about a dog. And as far as retrieving...a dog that doesn't want to retrieve WILL fail/refuse..its just a matter of time...they either have the heart to do it or not...I am not interested in using the collar to get a dog to break the ice and do its job. Field trialing is like any other venue....you have to beware the fanatics....winning is a powerful drug that can blind almost anyone. Measure the people...don't be blinded by the titles...

In 1976, a good friend went to Germany and bought a DD sitting in a back runway of an unknown kennel.... because the dog caught her eye. The dog came to the states, became a show champion and at the age of 3 was put with a FT trainer. At 4 he was a DC running in all breed competition...he produced 6 FC....and he came from a kennel in north Germany where the main game are hogs. Breeders make dogs...study the people first...what is important to them. I produced a granddaughter from this dog that also became a FC, routinely running 800-1000 yds to the front. And this from Euro testing...pig dogs...crossbred Vdog mutts

The GREATEST benefit to trialing is that it has brought many people together to focus on performance...raised the bar....made success mean something....and kept field dogs focused on what they should be and do. As long as we understand that there is much more beyond the title, I'm for it....and would hope that every working breed will have a strong FT gene pool.

[birddogger]

The GREATEST benefit to trialing is that it has brought many people together to focus on performance...raised the bar....made success mean something....and kept field dogs focused on what they should be and do. As long as we understand that there is much more beyond the title, I'm for it....and would hope that every working breed will have a strong FT gene pool.

Well said.

Charlie

[tommyboy72]

What I am trying to say is that testing and hunting proves very little about the dog and has a ton to do with the trainer and handler

So if bought a chihuhua and was a good trainer then I would have a good bird dog? Why the he!! do I waste my time with pointers then. Why does everyone keep buying and breeding hunting dogs if good trainers can turn a non hunting breed into a hunter? In the end hunting birds is what it all revolves around.

I never said I was better than Peyton Manning and never said my dog or dogs were better than trial dogs. But until you prove it to me I will continue to think mine are as good as trial dogs. Also I never said to take my word for it. Bring your dog and come hunt with me and if your dog blows mine away I will go back to the drawing board and shut my pie hole but until then I can continue to think mine are as good as yours. The ONLY reason I do not participate in trial events is a logistics one. I live so far out in the middle of nowhere there are not many opportunities to participate in walking trials without driving 100-several hundred miles to participate. I believe there is one event down in Amarillo a year and a couple of hunt tests a year in Amarillo and everything else is horseback trials all of which are at least if not more than 100 miles away. No deep pockets here buddy just a poor meat hunter. They next closest event I believe may be up at Goodland, Ks. or right across the border from Goodland in Colorado and this is a good 7 or 8 hrs away. If I lived closer I would probably be trialing just like you guys but just because you think you guys own the elite athletes of the bird dog world sometimes a good ole boy like me can surprise you. Do you know that I train my dogs year round on wild birds? How many of you do that? Until this year my dogs were trained 100% on wild birds summer, fall, winter, and spring. When you guys think it is too hot to run your dogs mine are getting out for short 45 min. to an hour run on wild birds with a dip in the horsetank to make sure they stay cool For the first time this year I bought 10 pigeons and 15 chukar that I shot over a young dog who is now 10 mos old and pointing, locking, and retrieving wild birds. I am not knocking trials or trialers. I just wish you guys would stop thinking you guys are the only ones who know how to train dogs and the only ones who can raise decent dogs. It offends the little man like myself.

[Birddogz]

I think the biggest problem many hunters have with trialers is that they think that their dogs are superior to a meat dog. Then they pull them out in the field and the hunters aren't impressed with how the dogs hunt. I have witnessed this on 3 different occasions. Instead of the FT guys simply saying, "Look, my dog could have been a great pheasant dog had he been hunted on them from the time he was little." Instead they say that "You just don't understand how my dogs hunt." They are condescending to the hunters. The hunters look at production/efficiency, not necessarily what the FT guys are looking for. The winner to many hunters is the guy who has the heaviest game bag day in and out. To each his own, and neither is right or wrong, but many times the two roll their eyes at each other because of differing ideas of what is important. I will say that Fts and "games"are the reason that we are seeing a steady improvement in dogs, but the often pompous attitudes are why people smirk. On both sides I might add, myself included. I have started to have a more open mind, it has been a hard lesson.

[birddogger]

I was touchy and elitist before I ever owned a bird dog.

Sorry Ross, I didn't realize you were watching.

Charlie

[its the dog]

The one thing I have always wondered is how money dogs do the serious horseback guys go threw to find a prospect for a chance for them to win. Don't take any of that the wrong way. I'm just curious.

[Winchey]

I am not a trialer, I participate in NAVHDA. I have watched coverdog events and Navhda events and the feild portions are not comparable. I am ahunter and my dog finds tons of ruffies and we also spend a ton of time freezing in the duck blind. I also find trials very exciting and hope to participate in a few next year. If I am anything it certainly is not rich, but I managed to make the 3.5 hour trip to the nearest navhda chapter a few times, a 7 hour trip for a test and a 4 hour trip to retest last year. I didn't say training and handling is everything, I just think a mediocre (hunting dog) can get some nice titles with a good handler and trainer, and that is not the case in the trials. It is ridiculous to ask someone to come to you when you are the one with something to prove. Field Trials are in some ways an organized institution to settle these arguments. Maybe your dogs are the best, but FT's are the best way at the moment to prove it.

[Chukar12]

I am trying to point out that we arent comparing apples to apples, or apples to oranges ... folks start arguing over which is better fruit, it is subjective and silly. I wouldn't challenge or critique Tommyboy and or his dogs, I guarantee that his ground and style of hunting is far different than mine. If i dropped a string of desert chukar dogs down on tree lines or crp, running pheasants, or a thousand other different conditions...they really shouldn't produce as well as the dog raised there. I haven't a word to say about any other hunter's dog, why would I unless they asked for help or opinion? The argument is heightened when one side or the other gets personal or overlays opinion and point of view on fact.

I really missed all of the posts saying that hunter's dogs were inferior. I have seen good natured ribbing about why one would hunt a given species; my beloved chukars and their terrain not being immune of course...but not a single word that belittles a hunters dog. To each his own i say, and before we label anyone elitist or touchy try looking in the mirror before we look out the window.

[cjuve]

It's funny that all of trialers that I know have nothing but good to say about the things that hunting and wild birds do for a dog, matter of fact they train on wild birds when ever possible because pen raised are not equal. They know how to develop and train bird dogs not just trial dogs. The only real place that that I ever hear about trialers running down hunting dogs is on the internet.The hunting dog is the reason the game exists in the first place!

A farily well known handler out here in the West told me about the first trial dog that he owned, she was 5 before he broke her and started her trialing carreer she was a meat dog before that. Last time that I checked that dog had 11 AFTCA placements with 3 ch's.

If you spend enough time on both sides of the fence you will learn that there is just as good dogs hunting as there is trialing the only difference is development and somebody has enough money to campaign the dog.

[Chukar12]

The one thing I have always wondered is how money dogs do the serious horseback guys go threw to find a prospect for a chance for them to win. Don't take any of that the wrong way. I'm just curious

Well...there are others far better qualified to answer this...maybe Yawallac will provide a serious answer if God forbid his comedic material is running thin BUT....

If you ask about an amateur running an AKC Gun Dog, not very darned many "washout." It is a hobby and they show up hoping to get a dog around clean. Pros will run some mediocre gun dogs and or All Age dogs in open stakes but regardless of pay appear to get frustrated and return dogs to owners that just cannot win. So I guess the answer is a percentage less than ...say 20 of the AKC 1/2 hour type club dogs are given up on...However, I will guess based on the performance required for elite AF AA and SD's that goes up exponentially. A true AA dog doesn't come in bunches out of any litter.

[cjuve]

The one thing I have always wondered is how money dogs do the serious horseback guys go threw to find a prospect for a chance for them to win. Don't take any of that the wrong way. I'm just curious

Well...there are others far better qualified to answer this...maybe Yawallac will provide a serious answer if God forbid his comedic material is running thin BUT....

If you ask about an amateur running an AKC Gun Dog, not very darned many "washout." It is a hobby and they show up hoping to get a dog around clean. Pros will run some mediocre gun dogs and or All Age dogs in open stakes but regardless of pay appear to get frustrated and return dogs to owners that just cannot win. So I guess the answer is a percentage less than ...say 20 of the AKC 1/2 hour type club dogs are given up on...However, I will guess based on the performance required for elite AF AA and SD's that goes up exponentially. A true AA dog doesn't come in bunches out of any litter.

Depends on if someone is paying you to run them or you are paying the bill yourself.

[tommyboy72]

Winchey I really don't have anything to prove and I was just giving you an invite to Oklahoma to hunt some wild quail and pheasant. I didn't realize you canucks got offended so easily ehhhh. I really don't have anything to prove, my dogs are not the best and I really don't give a darn about trialing either otherwise I would drive my happy rear end to the closest venue and get after it. I never said anyone had ever talked bad about my dogs in particular but what I meant is the general concensus that only trialers and kennels who trial can raise and train good dogs hurts my feelings a bit. I am sensitive. As far as hunting goes it isn't the fact that I like to come home with the biggest bag because I can get a 3 bird pheasant limit in about an hour every day of the season and get into my fair share of quail as well and could probably limit on them if I were a better shot. It isn't that it is more the exposure to the birds for the dogs but hunting is a big part of it. I have went through probably about 5 or 6 maybe even more dogs this year trying to find one who would fit what I want in a bird dog. I just gave the dogs away because they didn't have what I wanted in a bird dog. I am about as picky when it comes to hunting dogs as some are when it comes to trial dogs. Work them awhile, see what they got, and get rid of them if they don't have it. I like to put all of it together, the running big, pointing the birds, holding them till I walk my slow butt up there, me flushing and shooting and them marking and retrieving the birds. All in one package not just part of the package. No one pays me to run these dogs as has been pointed out so I better be darn content with what I have since I am the one paying the feed and vet bills on them all year long. I think I have gotten a bit off track here my intention was just to say that there are some good backwoods meat dogs around the country that probably never get seen because their owners don't trial and are deserving of breeding consideration as a hunting dog if they hunt really well. My Annie dog has never been trialed but I have had 3 or 4 offers from trialer friends of mine to breed to her after watching her handle birds. Point is there are good hunting dogs that would make good trialing dogs and good trial dogs that would make good hunting dogs and both types should be equally deserving of being bred and raised and put on birds. I just don't think trial dogs are the be all and end all of the bird dog world. Sorry don't mean to step on any toes.

[Yawallac]

If you ask about an amateur running an AKC Gun Dog, not very darned many "washout."

Here is a "washout". This dog washed out of five Pro strings, from the grouse woods to the prairies. I sold this dog as a started pup to a man as a field trial prospect. His owner sent him to Scott Chaffee and Scott told him that Rocky trailed too much, barked too much, didn't run enough and wouldn't make a field trial dog. His owner then sent him to Dave Grubb. Dave sent him home telling his owner that Rocky trailed too much, barked too much, didn't run enough and wouldn't make a field trial dog. His owner called me and asked if I wanted to buy him back. I said yes and we brought him home. I immediately sent him over to HOF handler John Ray Kimbrell. After a couple of trials John Ray called me and said Rocky trailed too much, barked too much, didn't run enough and wouldn't make a field trial dog. I picked him up and decided to send him up to George Tracy for the last couple of months of the season. After the season ended George called me and said Rocky trailed too much, barked too much, didn't run enough and wouldn't make a field trial dog.

So, I got Rocky back, rejected by Pros, who's opinions I respect very much. Thing is, that when I watched this boy go, he had too much animation and flash to ignore and his intensity and style on birds was simply intoxicating ...I just wasn't willing to give up on him. I spent the summer working Rocky, building his independence and confidence, working him on wild birds, killing birds for him and he just kept getting better and better. Many times during the summer I would call my partners late in the afternoon, "Rocky made a move to the front that just took my breath away!" or "Rocky hit a covey of birds so hard that it actually made me gasp!"

Well, I called George and told him that I was sending Rocky back for the fall. George said, "Ross, I just don't think Rocky is good enough to make our string." I said, "George, listen, give him two weeks and if you still feel he can't make it I'll come get him." George agreed. After four days George called me and said, "This isn't the same dog that we sent back to you!"

http://region1fieldtrials.blogspot.com/ ... nship.html

Ch. Caladen's Sawmill Struttin

[BigShooter]

Ross,

Good story. Luckily you have the skills and the expertise to bring out the dog's true potential. Personally I think a number of pros have a settled on a set way to bring dogs along in part because it is expedient, efficient for them & produces the best results for the greatest number of their charges. In certain instances one might say "the dog failed the training" but really the "training failed the dog".

Tommyboy,

I firmly believe there are exceptional dogs born that slip through the cracks and are never trialed or never successfully trialed for a whole host of reasons. This does not diminish the accomplishments of those that do win, nor does it mean all "plain 'ol" hunting dogs are born without exceptional potential and talent.

Training on wild birds year around is truly an exceptional opportunity. In many States it is illegal and for many months of the year training is prohibited to protect the young of the year.

its the dog,

There are a number of owners that have gone through a lot of dogs & a lot of breeding experiments in an attempt to produce a AA horseback national champion. There are others who through a combination of years of experience hunting wild birds, owning dogs, possessing a kean eye & a bit of luck have produced exceptional litters & won with one dog. Wagonmaster did just that with his 2X NC Willows On The Spot. The only GSP AA dog he has ever campaigned. He owned the dam, selected the stud, picked the best of the litter, selected the trainer(s) and had the where-with-all to fund the venture. This example is however the exception to the norm.

All,

The truly exceptional field trial dogs have mutiple wins or placements all over the country on many different types of birds and under vastly different circumstances. Many hunting dogs excel on their home turf with birds they've been trained on. Great trial and great hunting dogs figure out pretty quickly how to handle new terrain & different birds.

I think one area that probably produces the greatest challenges for cross over is grouse in the deep woods vs birds in big open country. I believe there are individual breedings of dogs better suited to specialize under each of those circumstances. Another challenging area is sitting calmly in a duck blind. Again I believe certain breeds have more dogs better suited for this activity.

The trialers I've met have been smart about dogs, gracious and welcoming. Hunters as a whole are a bit more diverse group ranging from diehards to folks doing it once a year as a business networking event or social activity and hunters range from slobs to gentlemen & ladies. Hunter's dogs range from the perverse to the sublime. The diehard hunters and dog people are pretty much on a par with the testers and trialers. However IMO within the hunting group are a whole lot of folks and dogs that aren't at the same level as the aforementioned groups.

[Winchey]

I will try to use hockey as an analogy as I know more about that then dogs. When you get to a certain level in hockey be it CIS, NCAA, CHL, AHL, East Coast league, to the untrained eye those players are really not that much differnt in the skill dept as the guys in the NHL. But to the trained eye there is a huge difference, technically they are not that much different but to the trained eye that little extra the guys in the show have is miles and miles. I think dogs are a lot like that. Heck I am not sensitive, I would love to head down south and hunt, it would be a blast, just don't see me being able to make the journy in the near future. You can bring a good hockey player down from the pros and put him in the beer league and it is not a given that he is going to win the scoring race, but those who know anything know that guy is still the best guy on the ice.

[Chukar12]

Ross
That is a cool story but finish it ... Does the dog still bark too much?

[Neil]

Winchey,

Nice response, I know nothing about hockey, but I agree with your points. As same with all sports including doggy ones.

[ElhewPointer]

The one thing I have always wondered is how money dogs do the serious horseback guys go threw to find a prospect for a chance for them to win. Don't take any of that the wrong way. I'm just curious.

Well, I don't know if im a "serious" horseback guy or not. I've had some luck and won a little. But to answer this question from me, well...... The first dog I bought with the full intention to field trial was Ch. Nella Running Tab. Got lucky I guess. Next I bought a puppy out of Elhew Sinbad and won the Arkansas Derby with him and due to a divorce had to sell him. Lucky...I did buy a pup that I ended up selling to a guy in New York and the dog has won, but I didn't like how he was marked. I now have two pups that were bred at Ross' place and am quite sure they will make it. I also currently have a young dog out of my Champion that I like a lot. Therefore, that would make it 5 for 6. Not bad.

Now, here's the funny thing about this thread. I get to see from both sides of it. I've probably shot more WILD WILD WILD pheasants and quail than 90% of the people on this board. I've had hunting dogs since I was 9. I've had more washout hunting dogs, that wouldn't cut it than trial dogs!!(Until I got pointers). But the funny thing is, is that I expect most of the same things out of my hunting dogs as my trial dogs. All my "trial" dogs are/were hunting dogs first. But they had the "it" factor to be worthy of going and trying to play the game. My champion dog spent his first yr. hunting ND, NE, TX. And so are these young dogs I have now.

The problem with this thread is, everyone's definition of "good hunting dog" is SOOOOOOO different. What I thought was a good dog 10 years ago is avg. at best now! Okay, throw daggers.

Vagas

[cjuve]

The problem with this thread is, everyone's definition of "good hunting dog" is SOOOOOOO different.

So is everyone's definition of a good trial dog.

[RayGubernat]

The one thing I have always wondered is how money dogs do the serious horseback guys go threw to find a prospect for a chance for them to win. Don't take any of that the wrong way. I'm just curious.

From my perspective, the previous answer was very much right on. The number of "washouts" is directly related to the level of competition that the owner wishes to participate in.

In any athletic endeavor, there is a process of weeding out. How many high school football players are there relative to college football players? Probably 10 to 1.

How many college football players graduate every year relative to the number that are ultimately selected for inclusion on a pro team? Probably 500 or 1000 to 1.

not much diferent with competitive dogs. It depends on what level you wish to play at.

As an amateur, I have to say that I hunt my washouts and also use them for training the new kid on the block. If the dog can run all age, I may run an all age stake or two with it. If a dog can run shooting dog, I will run in those stakes . If the dog can run AKC Gundog, that is where I will compete the dog. If the dog can run a walking race, I will take a couple of Advil, stretch my stumpy old legs, hitch up my fat butt and walk a couple of those too.

RayG

[BigShooter]

Field trialing requires a broke dog whereas one may hunt with a dog that has poor manners. I do think those that have trained or own completely broke dogs and hunt behind them believe a completely broke dog is a greater accomplishment. Therefore, they may have a tendency to look down upon those that have not made the effort or paid the price to get a dog trained to that level. This really is no different than the person who never gets their dog trained to not jump up on people vs. the people that do. Folks that have disobedient dogs may be frowned upon. The ones looking down at others may be considered snobs by some.

and Ray ... please stop talking about what makes common sense, again!

[Birddogz]

The best hunting dog is the one that consistently handles birds with manners both before and after the shot. Searching, pointing, hunting dead, retrieving. Honoring if necessary. AND, does so in the most efficent manner possible. Basically a dog that allows for the maximum amount of game to be harvested/seen in the shortest amount of time. Now this isn't a one day deal, this is a season deal. After watching a dog hunt over and over it becomes evident which dog is better at the job.

Here is a bizarre experience that I have had, and people have mentioned on here many times. I had a male Britt about 10 years ago that was big. I mean 55 pounds and not fat. His feet were huge! Swam like a Lab. I used to have trouble getting him to come out of the water once he found a pond. The dog hunted what seemed like half heartedly. About half speed. Even though he did this, I have never hunted over a dog that pointed more birds. I was hunting mostly Ruffs at the time, with a couple trips to SD a year, so phez and RG were the main game we pursued. (woodcock too) It was really strange. I had other dogs that seemed to be covering ground and hunting better, but he found 3 times the birds. I used to think it was luck, but after 3 years of it, I decided maybe it wasn't. My point is that that dog would never be able to keep up with a trial dog, but I have never seen a dog produce more birds to the bag. I have hunted with over 100 different dogs in my life, and I have never seen a dog do what he did, yet to look at him work, a person wouldn't be impressed, until they hunted with him a couple days. It reminds me of Larry Bird. The guy wasn't fast, and couldn't jump well, yet is a top 10 player of all time. Sometimes things are just the way they are.

[JKP]

Re: Field Trialers and What to Do About Them

I guess we thank them....what else is there to do? Anyone that is willing to spend the time and money so that the rest can sit back, do less and then go pick and choose where they get their pups, find their stud dogs, etc....what else can you do but say thank you?? Is it a perfect system? No. Does a title guarantee everything? No Are all the issues answered by a title? No. But you can say the same about every other venue. It tells you what it tells you...then you go find out the "rest of the story".

Serious Field trialers are good people and every breed needs some. How we can sit around and pick at what is wrong about any venue while an army of blue haired ladies with their Winnebagos caravan from one dog show to the next making "poopsies" out of so many working dogs seems silly to me. The guys buying the horses, ATVs, running around the country so they can compete against the best (and already finished) dogs aren't what we should worry about.

I grew up in a kennel family and my "Daddy" impressed upon me that ..they are dogs...don't try to make people out of them....that you WILL have your up and down days....there is always a better dog somewhere on any given day....and don't believe your press because its never that good and never that bad. As long as we remember that, the "games" have their place....and all of them serve to keep us focused on what matters. Besides, we need to band together against the onslaught of the hoards of greenies, "poopsies" and tree huggers.

The most frustrating thing about breeding dogs is to watch good pups go out the door and never see them again...with people who don't do the work....pups that should come back into the breeding pool. How could we ever be unhappy with folks that are willing to put in the work to keep good genetics going?

[Greg Jennings]

There are no perfect field trial formats. Each makes compromises optimized for the participants' preferences.

Before someone questions a field trial format's specifics, they need to get out there and participate.

Greg J.

[ElhewPointer]

Re: Field Trialers and What to Do About Them

I guess we thank them....what else is there to do? Anyone that is willing to spend the time and money so that the rest can sit back, do less and then go pick and choose where they get their pups, find their stud dogs, etc....what else can you do but say thank you?? Is it a perfect system? No. Does a title guarantee everything? No Are all the issues answered by a title? No. But you can say the same about every other venue. It tells you what it tells you...then you go find out the "rest of the story".

Serious Field trialers are good people and every breed needs some. How we can sit around and pick at what is wrong about any venue while an army of blue haired ladies with their Winnebagos caravan from one dog show to the next making "poopsies" out of so many working dogs seems silly to me. The guys buying the horses, ATVs, running around the country so they can compete against the best (and already finished) dogs aren't what we should worry about.

I grew up in a kennel family and my "Daddy" impressed upon me that ..they are dogs...don't try to make people out of them....that you WILL have your up and down days....there is always a better dog somewhere on any given day....and don't believe your press because its never that good and never that bad. As long as we remember that, the "games" have their place....and all of them serve to keep us focused on what matters. Besides, we need to band together against the onslaught of the hoards of greenies, "poopsies" and tree huggers.

The most frustrating thing about breeding dogs is to watch good pups go out the door and never see them again...with people who don't do the work....pups that should come back into the breeding pool. How could we ever be unhappy with folks that are willing to put in the work to keep good genetics going?

Well said.

[proudag08]

My mind is about to explode!!!!!!!!! I feel like I just ran a marathon!!!! You guys make me tired with all this talk about field trial this... meat hunter that...

BUT I LOVE IT!!!

This stuff is great for a newb like me. And this kind of debate (although tiresome and hard on the eyes to read) is exactly what this forum is for. Thanks for being so passionate. I hope one day I too can bicker about the differences in trial vs meat, EP vs Brit vs GSP, and any other good natured banter that comes swelling up from this forum!!!

[Winchey]

I just want to add one last thing. I really don't find that Feild Trialers are going around saying that hunting dogs are so inferior. However, I see tons of hunters bashing the trials and feild trialers putting up a defence. Just my observations. Not that this is what is happening in this thread.

[topher40]

Really who cares if a hunter doesnt agree with a trialer? I do both, I dont care what you think, and its not for everyone but it is for me. They both have a place. Just maybe not at your place

[Grouse Dog Guy]

"touchy or elitist" I am proud to be both I wasted a lot of dog and man years before finding and understanding trial dogs and trials. My meat dogs spent a lot of time in the kennel or laying on the couch when they were just meat dogs they only got out for a little training and to go for a hunt.
Now I have trial dogs that get worked almost every week year round and in hunting season they pull double duty some days running in trials, some days hunting and some days doing both. You see I found the difference between trial dogs and meat dogs was me not the dogs. I only wish I had become 'touchy or elitist" sooner and not wasted so many dog years!

[TAK]

"touchy or elitist" I am proud to be both I wasted a lot of dog and man years before finding and understanding trial dogs and trials. My meat dogs spent a lot of time in the kennel or laying on the couch when they were just meat dogs they only got out for a little training and to go for a hunt.
Now I have trial dogs that get worked almost every week year round and in hunting season they pull double duty some days running in trials, some days hunting and some days doing both. You see I found the difference between trial dogs and meat dogs was me not the dogs. I only wish I had become 'touchy or elitist" sooner and not wasted so many dog years!

No this feller should run for President!

[tommyboy72]

Winchey and others I am not sure how much you know about American Football, the NFL, but you have to remember it also works the other way around too guys. You want to equate sports to dog work. What about Joe Montana drafted in the last round, Steve Young who sat behind Montana for so many years almost forgotten, Warren Moon who played in the minors or CFL for so many years before becoming a fantastic NFL quarterback, Kurt Warner who was a grocery sacker before coming to the NFL and becoming a Superbowl MVP, Carl Roaches former Houston Oilers safety and special teams guy who sold peanuts at the stadium before becoming a Pro Bowler, you wanna go recent then look at Aaron Rodgers who sat behind Favre until finally getting his chance and is doing a wonderful job for the Packers? All of these guys are pro bowlers and hall of famers or future hall of famers. . You wanna go hockey then I give you the 1980 U.S. Olympic Hockey Team. Anyway you wanna look at it there are underdog surprises everywhere. It isn't the norm but I would wager to say there are more out there than you think. Once again I want repeat I am not knocking field trials or trialers just saying there are also good dogs out there that never get trialed. I would also like to throw this out there. How many of you kennel owners and big time trialers just jumped in with both feet and either spent all of your savings or borrowed the money from the bank and just went out and bought 30 dogs and started a kennel and a breeding program. I would wager to say none. Probably all of you started small, planned and developed a trialing and breeding program after trial and error mixed with success, gradually perfected your trialing and breeding programs and grew to where you are now. Point is everyone started out most likely as hunters and avid fans of bird dogs and some decided to take it a step further and make it a way of life and a career but you started out as hunters and amatuers nonetheless unless there is a college you went to and got your masters or doctorate in field trialing, breeding and raising dogs, and owning and operating a kennel. If that is the case please let me know so that I might also attend the prestigious university.

Ya TAK he is a real OBAMA.

[ElhewPointer]

What does NFL stand for? "Not For Long" if you can't cut it. You're analogy is life. Im sure there is sum bum on the street that would be the best hedge fund manager, some colt standing in the mud that'd be the next Secertariat, etc...... But hey, you have a dog like Sir Lancelot that came from hunting dog stock. It works both ways man.

[Grouse Dog Guy]

Tommyboy, I bet if you look at the pedigree of almost any good dog no matter where it came from you will see a dogs name that has been trialed at some point and time. Just a little advice form and old guy that's been up and down the road " narrow mindedness isn't a handicap unless you make it one"

[TAK]

Tommyboy... Sorry if I came to the game late, and I don't get all the hub bub between a feller that trials or a feller that hunts. My opinion is that if the feller is happy... Me so happy!
I have played most all the games... Might I say I love every single one of them for one reason or another! But formost I am a hunter! That is how I got my first dog and that is how my last dog will be.

Someone had said that all we need to do is thank the FIELDTRIALERS for the dogs we have today... I agree to a point, but as said before not everyone is into the CONTEST part of the game! YET...YET there are them out there that hands down, own, raise, train and hunt amazing dogs! Dogs that would knock your socks off... I am talking about doing everything perfect as it is in-grained in our minds what perfect is! YET you won't catch them at any sort of doggy game!

And about the story about the huge Brit! Great stuff... I too had one just as you discribed! he was a tank! And compair to what I hunt with know he was like watching paint dry... But that "bleep" dog was a machine! The SOB could find and get pointed any bird... And in a Wal-mart Parking lot to boot!

[TAK]

Tommyboy, I bet if you look at the pedigree of almost any good dog no matter where it came from you will see a dogs name that has been trialed at some point and time. Just a little advice form and old guy that's been up and down the road " narrow mindedness isn't a handicap unless you make it one"

Man you have some great one liners!!!!

[JKP]

I just want to add one last thing. I really don't find that Field Trialers are going around saying that hunting dogs are so inferior

I think there are folks in all "religions" that tend to think they are the true believers. There are some members of my own that go to far IMO in there fanaticism. I do know that there are some fantastic dogs that don't have a drop of trial blood in them. They're not AA dogs but they would mix right in in most other venues and contribute well to the competition. At the 2000 Invitational, I ran with a DD bitch and watched the two dogs push each other forward until finally the head judge (Joe Doljesi) asked us to bring the dogs around so they could see them work. They put on a nice show for the hour, much of the time one or the other several 100 yards to the front. My little bitch broke away and looked like she was lost until a gunner spotted her on the next farm on point....we all hopped the fence, bracemate backed, shot the bird and got back on the course after the retrieve. That was a nice little dog and I miss her.

I think that trialers DO believe that their dogs are better...they may play it down but many feel the rest of us are playing Division II ball.
That doesn't bother me...after all, its really up to me to go out with my dogs and shut folks up...that's what its about. Problem is, I'm too busy doing the water work, blood tracking, directionals/handling, etc which is what I expect of a dog. Sometimes I wish all I had to focus on was run/point/manners....I have to be concerned about calmness in the blind, ability to work furred game, blood tracking big game, and absolute retrieving reliability....I feel I have my hands full with what's important to me. I'm satisfied that folks who see my dogs work generally feel they hold their own.

But, when I go looking for a good stud dog, after temperament I ask about "horsepower", manners on game and trainability...sounds like we're on the same page there...but I also want to know if the dog will break ice to retrieve and a few other things. Field trialing doesn't tell me enough about a dog..but its a great starting point.

[TAK]

Ya TAK he is a real OBAMA.

OMG! Call a guy names but not that!

[Birddogz]

I have never understood why anyone would trial while there were hunting seasons going on that involved wild birds. The spring and winter I understand.

[Winchey]

Most of the fall trials around here are on wild birds. Some people don't really care if they shoot birds. Having the dog handle them properly and knowing the dog gave you a chance to shoot it is enough for many.

[TAK]

I have never understood why anyone would trial while there were hunting seasons going on that involved wild birds. The spring and winter I understand.

Ever so often a fella... or gal just wants to go and lay a smack down on a trial!!!! We all like to Brag a bit!!!!

[cody]

So first you say this

I think that trialers DO believe that their dogs are better...they may play it down but many feel the rest of us are playing Division II ball.

and then you say this

That doesn't bother me...after all, its really up to me to go out with my dogs and shut folks up...that's what its about. Problem is, I'm too busy doing the water work, blood tracking, directionals/handling, etc which is what I expect of a dog. Sometimes I wish all I had to focus on was run/point/manners....I have to be concerned about calmness in the blind, ability to work furred game, blood tracking big game, and absolute retrieving reliability....I feel I have my hands full with what's important to me. I'm satisfied that folks who see my dogs work generally feel they hold their own.

So it's the trialers who believe there dogs are better? little contradictory isn't it D&B?

[Birddogz]

Most of the fall trials around here are on wild birds. Some people don't really care if they shoot birds. Having the dog handle them properly and knowing the dog gave you a chance to shoot it is enough for many.

I hear that, but many people who trial like to compete. Why not compete by testing your ability to close the deal with the shot? I view my dogs and myself as a team. I have to do MY part as well. I think those timed tests where they shoot 3 birds and have to have them retrieved look the most fun. Dogs have to find them, you have to shoot them, they have to retrieve them.

[BigShooter]

I think that trialers DO believe that their dogs are better

You can think anything you like but that doesn't make it so.

Just like you can say put up or shut up about versatile hunting dogs, trialers or anyone else that plays a game can say put up or shut up as well. All that says to me is anyone can talk smack all they want, the real proof is in a dog's performance under the parameters in question.

[BigShooter]

Most of the fall trials around here are on wild birds. Some people don't really care if they shoot birds. Having the dog handle them properly and knowing the dog gave you a chance to shoot it is enough for many.

I hear that, but many people who trial like to compete. Why not compete by testing your ability to close the deal with the shot? I view my dogs and myself as a team. I have to do MY part as well. I think those timed tests where they shoot 3 birds and have to have them retrieved look the most fun. Dogs have to find them, you have to shoot them, they have to retrieve them.

Birddogz,

We've talked about some of the barriers before. On another note some of us are young, healthy athletes and some of us used to be young healthy athletes. Not everyone has 20/20 vision, correct eye dominance, same gifts of hand/eye coordination and perfect physical frames. It is possible however for a "flawed individual" to own an excellent dog. To eliminate a dog from the gene pool because it's owner can not compete in the fashion you describe would be a crime. I say to each his own. If it turns your crank to add the human element to a dog's performance, stop talking about it and do it.

[JKP]

That doesn't bother me...after all, its really up to me to go out with my dogs and shut folks up...that's what its about. Problem is, I'm too busy doing the water work, blood tracking, directionals/handling, etc which is what I expect of a dog. Sometimes I wish all I had to focus on was run/point/manners....I have to be concerned about calmness in the blind, ability to work furred game, blood tracking big game, and absolute retrieving reliability....I feel I have my hands full with what's important to me. I'm satisfied that folks who see my dogs work generally feel they hold their own.



So it's the trialers who believe there dogs are better? little contradictory isn't it D&B?

Holy cow...don't be so sensitive. I merely meant that my time is pretty well booked with my own "religion". Nothing else was meant. Didn't say my dogs do anything better, just that I am spending a lot of time preparing my dogs for my "game". You will NEVER here me compare my dogs to anything...I have a life and am not searching for meaning. But I do believe that if you think you can play any of the games as well as the competition and its important to you, you go do it. That's why you will never here me spout claims. I just report what my dogs do after they do it....I learned long ago to keep my mouth shut til after the fat lady sings...how many points, rebounds and assists at the end of the game tells the story.