Crows little Joe

[Birddogz]

I have heard very good things about dogs from this stuff. What do you guys think of Crows Little Joe?

[tommyboy72]

I have heard from some of the NSTRA and Horseback trialers that I know that Crows Little Joe lines are the cream of the crop when it comes to their noses. I have never owned a dog out of this line but am more and more intersted in them the more I hear about these dogs.

[Birddogz]

Me too.

[ncpointers]

I sure enjoy mine. He is a direct son of Burchel's Dutchman. Dutchman is a son of Crow's Little Joe. Check out the litter listed in the Dogs for Sale section from 4X NSTRA Ch. Sawyer's Little Cos. I hope that I can get one as good as their dad.

[tommyboy72]

I have a buddy over in Lawton who I traded an Elhew Jefferson dog to for a couple of really nice pups who has been talking about breeding a Crow's Little Joe litter and I was so happy with the last pups I got from him that I am really thinking about getting one of the CLJ pups from him as well.

[Ron R]

I'm a believer in the Little Joe bred dogs. I used to have nothing but white dogs but after I got my first CLJ bred dog all but 2 of my white dogs got moved down the road. They are superior bird finders, they break out early, and can easily take the presure of the breaking process (force fetching included). The trade off is that they are not the most stylish dogs wich is why they cross so well HTA bred dogs. The Honky Tonk cross keeps the nose strong (superior bird finders as well) and hopefully will put some eye popping style in the pups. Just some good foot hunting stuff and I'm crazy about them .

[scott townsend]

I had the pleasure of campaigning Burchels Dutchman for around 4 years. Won 3 national championship events with him each with over a hundred dogs. He was the real deal, extremely smart, tons of nose and tons of bottom. He is buried behind the kennel at the edge of the training field. I have worked or owned several Joe dogs all were good bird finders.

[tommyboy72]

Just looked at my buddy in Lawton's new website last night. Looks like he got rid of the CLJ dogs and went to breeding Elhew dogs. He is using a son of Elhew Jefferson that I traded him as one of his stud dogs which doesn't bother me, it just confuses the heck out of me why he would want to stop breeding CLJ and Miller, Fiddler, and Rebel dogs to start breeding Elhew dogs. The dog I traded him had excellent bloodlines and was a decent wild quail dog but not what I would consider great on quail or even good on pheasant. He hunted smart but didn't have the best nose out of my dogs. To each his own though.

[BoJack]

If you look again at your buddy's site under Started dogs,he now has the male he got from you for sale,so apparently the dog doesn't suit him either for some reason.And from what I'm seeing he's going to start breeding Elhew dogs coming down from the Strike/Kiwi crosses, McGoo,McGuire,Gamblin Man(McGoo brother)etc.known to make Exceptional gun dogs.Tommy Wilson of Sooner Express kennels in Ok.has bred these lines for 20 years, and he hunts and guides on one the the best wild bird ranches in the Country,and has a Long list of satisfied clients that has his dogs.I don't think you can judge Any bllodlines from only owning One dog from them.What suits some may not suit others and visa versa.I've owned 3 Elhew dogs since the 70's and they were all Exceptional gun dogs,with Chokebore noses.And I have another pup coming in March.My avatar dog was an Elhew(and he hit his birds that way).Totally Broke at 9 mos old.All I had to do was give him bird exposure,he did the rest. You being from Ok you need to make it over,down or up to Tommy's and get behind some of his dogs.What all are you looking for in Your dogs? Apparently your buddy sees something in the lines he's going to now and likes it that he didn't in the CLJ lines? He should be able to answer your question.

[Yawallac]

Elhew dogs coming down from the Strike/Kiwi crosses...

Who was Kiwi's sire?

[BoJack]

Some kind of Guard dog.Police dog maybe?
What other Producing females did he produce? I think I've heard of one other but can't remember her name.
And you can't take Srtike out of that equation with the numbers he had and being at one time where Fibber is now in being the all time leading Elhew producer.

[tommyboy72]

I looked Bojack and you are mistaken. The dog I traded him earlier this spring is the dog he has in the picture at the top of his homepage on the website and if you look for him he is under stud dogs not started dogs. He absolutely adores that dog and will not sell it because when I spoke with him a couple of months ago he had already bred that dog 7 times this year and only once for himself. He has a $400 stud fee on that dog. His name is now Deep Elhew Jefferson. When I sold him the dog it's name was Noble Elhew Jefferson named by the gentleman who had purchased him as a pup and who I purchased him from, I just called him Jeff and never changed his registered name. Here is the link to the website.

http://deepredkennel.com/kennel.php?breed=15&category=5

I don't claim to have the wealth of experience you have so I rely somewhat on my own experience and some on the friends that I get dogs from and who all trial. The pups I traded for this spring were from Deep Red Kennel and Jodie is a NSTRA guy. Most of the dogs that I have gotten come from horseback trialers and wild bird guides and hunters here in the panhandle of Texas and Oklahoma. Poker Straight Kennel and Blackrock Kennel are 2 of the kennels I have gotten dogs and Adrian at Poker Straight Kennel and Ken at Blackrock Kennel are both good friends of mine not just dog breeders and salesmen. Adrian has mostly Miller and Nemaha dogs and he won the ABHA national championship this year with one dog and ABHA dog of the year with another dog. Ken likes the Blackrock dogs. I rely some on their expertise and experience which there are many years and a wealth of to draw on. I also plan someday to purchase a dog from another good friend of mine Ron Rawlings at Steel City Kennel who likes the CLJ dogs and who is also a NSTRA guy. None of these gentlemen are impressed by Elhew dogs for different reasons other than Jodie at Deep Red Kennel and I am glad he is happy with the dog I traded him. I am head over heels for the male pup I got from him. Miller/Fiddler/Bayou Teche/Whipporwill/Additions Go Boy with just a touch of Snakefoot all in one. You can see his ped. in my signature if you care to look. Point is I like a dog who is bold, starts early, takes pressure well, runs big, is natural on birds as well as retrieving, basically teaches themselves the best way to handle wild quail and pheasant and likes water. I have that with both the male I got from Jody and the female I got from Adrian. My Elhew dog was a decent quail dog but didn't have the type of nose he needed to hunt blues out here in this dry country, wouldn't retrieve even after being force fetched, didn't run big enough, could take no pressure at all especially from force fetching, handled pheasant decent but probably bumped more than he pointed, pointed deads decent but just wasn't the type of dog I was looking for. Supposedly Elhew Jefferson blood is supposed to some of the best Elhew blood out there and, no you cannot judge a bloodline by one dog, but when you have tried some of the best of what that line has to offer and were not satisfied I think it is time to move on and try something else. No offense to the Elhew guys here they were just not for me and are not for many of the men that I trust emphatically when it comes to dogs so I prefer Miller and some of the other bloodlines. Some day I would like to buy a CLJ dog and it will probably come from Ron because he is another guy I trust when it comes to dogs.

[Yawallac]

What other Producing females did he produce? I think I've heard of one other but can't remember her name.

You're kidding right? I'd wager that no other Pointer produced more Champion grandget than Guard Rail. The Field can't quantify the number with their antiquated system, but I spent an hour or so on the phone with them last year counting. They shuffled through what sounded like shoe boxes pulling records and finally stopped at about 57-58 Champions! They said that it would just take too long and there were far too many to count by hand. Heck, they didn't even get to Rail Dancer who produced 20+ multi-time Champions himself. Gene mentioned another female to me last week that he said produced 16 Champions! I can only imagine the numbers he would have produced had he not died in his prime.

And you can't take Srtike out of that equation...

I don't, but I tend to put more weight on the motherline. Our best results come by Identifying females that can really produce and breeding them to prepotent males. Love my girls!

Miller/Fiddler/Bayou Teche/Whipporwill/Additions Go Boy with just a touch of Snakefoot all in one.

Talk about trying to get all the coons up the same tree!

[SCKennel]

Crows Little Joe can be found as the grandfather on the dams side of Sir Lancelot!

[tommyboy72]

I know Ross. Kind of a hodge podge of bloodlines but he is making a heck of a wild bird dog so far even at 10 months old so it works for me. I know you love those Elhew dogs. They just aren't for me or to be more direct the one I had was not for me. I had him for 3 years and he was a good dog just not what I wanted for hunting wild birds out here in the panhandle of Oklahoma. He may have worked for you back in South Carolina but I was just looking for something different. He wasn't a bad dog just not my particular taste. I live closer to Texas, Amarillo to be exact, than I do anything in Oklahoma and most of the guys out here are horseback trialers so you don't see a lot of Elhew kennels out here but there are some fantastic EP kennels out here and some even better just plain old hunting dogs that are EP's as well. heck, Lawton, Oklahoma where I got my 10 month old pup is a good 6 hours from here all the way on the other side of the state from me. I drove through a good chunk of Texas to meet Jodie halfway, just over the Oklahoma/Texas border to pick up that pup. I am not knocking the Elhew dogs just stating they are not for me. You have some fine looking dogs and I am sure if I ever owned one of yours it may change my opinion on Elhews but South Carolina is a heck of a long way from Oklahoma.

If I didn't live so far from everything there are some nice kennels with some excellent bloodlines that I would like to visit like BoDarc kennel here in Oklahoma, Phantom Kennel down in Abilene, Texas and there is another gentleman over in Clinton, Oklahoma who came and visited me about the sister to my male pup that is trying to concentrate on breeding Bayou Teche stuff, his kennel name escapes me at the time but I would really like to see his dogs as well. Not Elhews but still nice dogs as well. All of these kennels are a good 300 mile drive from me so I have not made any visits so far but I plan to someday.

[BoJack]

Tommy,
The site has changed in the last two days.For weeks the Jefferson dog was for sale under Started dogs for 1000.00.Out of Jefferson/Texas Elhew Kiwi.Maybe a mistke that was corrected,but it Was there.No matter really.To each their own.Use what works for you,I think we all go by that.

[BoJack]

Ross,
Grandget?? I asked what other producing females did He sire( of Note-compared to Kiwi is what I meant).Only know of one other and can't remember her name.Possibly the same one you said Gene mentioned? Ask him who it was.

[Yawallac]

Grandget??

Yes Grandget. They would be the pups by Guard Rail sired sons and daughters, Grandget. Here's a good example, Ch. Van Mac, everybody considers him to have been a "Gun Smoke" dog. Who's his momma?!

Many, many Champions have been produced by Guard Rail dams ...and yet most folks always look to the sire.

[BoJack]

"Who's his momma?! "
DJ's Rail-What else did she produce? Most haven't even heard of her.Don't think she'd be in the same bracket as Kiwi

Who's his Poppa? Ch.Gunsmoke's Mickey Finn.I'm one also who considers Mac a Gunsmoke dog.How much Guardrail blood did Herb holmes infuse into his infamous Gunsmoke Kennels over the years?
Believe me I'm also a believer of strong female lines,but you can't give All the credit All the time to the females.Guardrail was known to produce with everything he was bred to,even the mediocre females,so who do you give the credit to? all the females he was bred to,or Guardrail??
Fibber Mc Gee now-Who gets the credit for his production record,all the females he was bred to?
In your opinion,shouldn't a female Produce Consistently with different studs to be considered a producer?
And how can a dog be considered a producing Grandfather(they actually keep records of this also?) with all the females involved in all the breedings,or would they also be considered Producing Grandmothers?

[Yawallac]

Guardrail was known to produce with everything he was bred to,even the mediocre females,so who do you give the credit to?

Nell.

In your opinion,shouldn't a female Produce Consistently with different studs to be considered a producer?

Of course.

And how can a dog be considered a producing Grandfather(they actually keep records of this also?) with all the females involved in all the breedings,or would they also be considered Producing Grandmothers?

Breeders should.

Does anyone have AF numbers for CLJ?

[BoJack]

"Guardrail was known to produce with everything he was bred to,even the mediocre females,so who do you give the credit to? all the females he was bred to,or Guardrail??"

Nell?? How does that play into the question??

[Yawallac]

"Guardrail was known to produce with everything he was bred to,even the mediocre females,so who do you give the credit to? all the females he was bred to,or Guardrail??"

You asked who I gave the credit to for Guard Rail's success as a prepotent stud. I give much of the credit to Nell's Rambling On.

[Yawallac]

Because she was a blue hen?

Because she produced ...HOF producers. Guard Rail and Addition's Go Boy are not only HOF producers in their own right, they also produce producers. It's hard to find a Champion Shooting Dog that doesn't trace back to Guard Rail and the Miller x Go Boy female crosses in the All Age world are legendary. Look at what Sean Derrig has done crossing Go Boy females to his studs.

It's Nell.

[BoJack]

"You asked who I gave the credit to for Guard Rail's success as a prepotent stud"

I did?? I don't see that anywhere in my question.Oh well.

[hustonmc]

Because she was a blue hen?

Because she produced ...HOF producers. Guard Rail and Addition's Go Boy are not only HOF producers in their own right, they also produce producers. It's hard to find a Champion Shooting Dog that doesn't trace back to Guard Rail and the Miller x Go Boy female crosses in the All Age world are legendary. Look at what Sean Derrig has done crossing Go Boy females to his studs.

It's Nell.

Man oh man, this brings up one of my wildest dreams. One of the Erin bitches out of Bad River bred to one of the last few remaining straws from Guardrail. I'd never see it. But for the exact reason that Ross is stating above, Nell's Rambling On

How did this get so far off from Crows Little Joe.............................