What do you know about these bloodlines?

[proudag08]

FC Dixielands Rusty
NFC/FC Rawhides Clown
FC/AFC Rusry't Blue Earth Rexx
NAFC/FC/AFC P J Wildfire

Any and all info would be great! Thanks!

Does anyone have a dog out of this bloodline? I am a newbie so go easy on me.

[JMc]

I have had GSP's with the Dixielands Rusty and Rawhides Clown. They are both good and bad...what I'm saying is; the good ones are great and the bad ones are not so great. The clown dogs come from the 3XNFC Champion Rawhides clown. Several litters came from the Clown/DR mix. My best GSP is a mix of both the Dixie and the Clown. It's not hard to recognize the clown dogs with their bigger than normal "two-bird" mouth and the famous bump on the nose.

[kensfishing]

I own all of the types of bloodlines. I have a triple bred Clown grandson with Rusty on the bottom, a hard charging bird finding machine. Nothing slows him down. Very hard headed. I own a grandson of Clown and Slicker, a finished dog on both sides by me. He's been said by many pros he's one of the most honest dogs on birds they've ever seen. A monster on horse back, but a great foot dog. I also own a granddaughter of PJ Wildfire. Not so personel with people who she's doen't know, but her pups are some of the finest dogs I've ever seen. All of these dogs are Hall of Fame. PJ Wildfire was put there last year at the Nationals. They have their good sides and bad. Bred to the right dogs Great.

[kbshorthairs]

All the dogs you mentioned were incredible specimens. Be careful when "shopping" for a puppy when someone says that they are from certain bloodlines. Lots of people claim a "champion-bred" dog, when the titled dog appears once in its pedigree in five generations.
There are tons of great dog people on this site. If you are more specific with your questions, they can provide valuable knowledge.
The type of bloodlines to be looking for depends greatly on your specific application. Are you looking for a dog to take hunting a few times a year? Are you looking for the next potential all-age champion? Something in the middle perhaps?
Give the people on this forum more specifics and they will provide tons of information.

[Cajun Casey]

That's going back a stretch. Rusty was whelped in 1978, Clown in '88. Rexx was a later Rusty son. Look for him in Dunfur dogs, among others. Sport predated Rusty a few years. Most of my dogs are Rusty, some pretty heavy, with a mix of Sport and DK blood. They are a varied lot. Tough dogs, great natural retrievers for the most part. I have two linebred Clown grandsons, one a wall crasher (Chick line on the bottom) and the other (Ricky son) placed with a trainer who has enough room and patience for him. High drive, classy dogs, but a bit weird. Of the lot, I like the reputation and the traits that appear to derive from Sport. But, again, after thirty-plus years, there's not a lot you can definitely conclude about influence.

[Greg Jennings]

Those are by, this late date, sort of Meta Lines. Well-known field trial meta lines.

What you need to understand is:

1. That no paper ever pointed or retrieved a bird or won a field trial. It is done by specific individuals.
2. All outstanding dogs (except for some outlying cases where there was only one pup, etc), somewhere along the way, have thrown some less-than-outstanding pups. That's just the genetic stew, dude.
3. There are no genetically perfect dogs. All dogs carry "bad" genes. Making a really big generalization, the more genetic diversity and the more "bad" genes, between the sire and dam, the more the genetic stew yields less consistent pups with more "bad". More diversity + more "bad" genes = less consistently "good" pups.
4. Keep in mind that I'm generalizing and leaving a lot out...especially cases of "bad genes" and extremely "close" breeding.
5. The average hobby guy is only going to have 1-3 dogs...like one in its prime, one past its prime and one not there yet. And, you're often not going to be able to convince yourself or the wife, or the kids to sell a dog that isn't cutting it.
6. So, bottom line, the hobbyist, if he wants a nice dog, needs to work hard to get the odds on his side.
7. For me, and just me, not trying to get anyone to buy into it, is I want something that is already proven...a dog that is already showing what I want would be optimal (but I've never been able to do it), a repeat breeding or a very similar breeding to something that has produced proven, nice dogs.

It all comes down to asking questions. You've got to talk to people and ask about the breeding. There are all sorts of questions to ask, but it all boils down to "Why do you think this breeding will produce what I am looking for?".

Greg J.

[mcbosco]

Permit me to generalize as well, I think the heart always wants more dog than is required. I would look very carefully at your sporting plans, family situation, work situation, etc before you make a decision. I live in the capital of weekend warrior land, so I have friends that have made some very costly and sad decisions on breeds and breed-type, most notably my very close friend that just had to have the most intense Chessie he could find. He leaves the house at 5:30am and comes home about 8-9 pm every night. His wife is a city girl about 5'3 and 105lbs wet. If he duck hunts three times a season I would be in shock. Sure his dog was a flashier swimmer than mine but there was really nothing his dog could do in a normal (for us) situation better than mine.

Just imagine how long that intense Chessie lasted in that house?

[scott townsend]

Greg , I would say that those dogs listed have produced some outstanding results as far as offspring go.Both on the trial circuit and as hunting dogs. Granted more info, as far as what he is looking for is needed. But I would say that is a really good background to be shopping for.

I agree that papers don't point and retrieve, but they will give you some good data about the history / lineage. That is valuable info when searching for a dog. You will need to use some common sense and have a good look at the parents when you find the pedigree's you are shopping for, but those papers will put you in the right ball park anyway.
Personally , my experience with those bloodlines have been great, and have produced some excellant results.

[Greg Jennings]

Now, I never said that they haven't produced terrific dogs. That's waaaayyyy obvious.

I said:
A: That those dogs are far in the past, to the point that they are sort of "metaline" at this point.
B: That every dog, no matter how good, will produce less than great dogs.

The OP is completely new to dogs and pedigrees. I've been carrying on an *extensive* PM conversation with him for quite some time. Just don't want him making a rash decision based on the paper.

Yes, *of course* the pedigree helps sort through a lot of chaff. No, they don't relieve one of asking questions. If nothing else, as McBosco hints, a great dog for one person isn't necessarily a great dog for the next.

I'll add some more statements to stir the pot:

C: Just like there are "Nicks" that are known to work, there are "anti-nicks" that simply don't work...you just don't hear about them in open conversation.
D: The are some great dogs, male and female, that just do not reproduce themselves. We all know this... the OP does not.
E: There are some males and females that seem to do great with different sires/dams. PrePotent/Blue Hen, respectively.

[kbshorthairs]

It sounds like this cat is really doing his research and that is great. It is always easier to prevent a trainwreck than to clean one up. It sounds like Greg has sort of taken him under his wing. That is one of the great things about this forum. You have access to so many people and so much information that would otherwise be impossible to find. I hope he finds a dog suited for the endeavors he hopes to pursue........even if he is an aggie.

[Cajun Casey]

It's easy to pick out big name dogs and pontificate on their progeny. However, it can surprise you what lies farther back. For example, Rawhide's Clown and Hillhaven's Hustler would be considered, IMO, quite dissimilar. However, dig a little deeper and you find a very prominent studline is shared by the two on paper.

[Greg Jennings]

I think we all have taken ProudAg08 under our wing.

We said "This much gets you started...now research, ask questions and sort through the various answers/perspectives".

That's exactly what he's doing.

It's a frustrating road, but a better one, ultimately, than if we just said "Here is the pefect dog for you. Have at it.". Now, I have recommended a specific pup or breeder, but I've gone on to explain why and have always said "ask questions".

In summary, ProudAg08 is on the road to being a bird dog man, not a "dog owner". That's what we want GDF to be. Not a place for those of us that have been around the block to come and have esoteric arguments about dog food.

PS: I'm especially happy that he's using the search function and reading through the archives. What can you expect...he's college ed-u-ma-cated.

[Greg Jennings]

It's easy to pick out big name dogs and pontificate on their progeny. However, it can surprise you what lies farther back. For example, Rawhide's Clown and Hillhaven's Hustler would be considered, IMO, quite dissimilar. However, dig a little deeper and you find a very prominent studline is shared by the two on paper.

Are you talking about Axel v Wasser-whatever-it is?

[Cajun Casey]

It's easy to pick out big name dogs and pontificate on their progeny. However, it can surprise you what lies farther back. For example, Rawhide's Clown and Hillhaven's Hustler would be considered, IMO, quite dissimilar. However, dig a little deeper and you find a very prominent studline is shared by the two on paper.

Are you talking about Axel v Wasser-whatever-it is?

BaBing, we have a winner. Sort of. It's actually his son, Esser's Chick, that I am referring to, but the great Axel would be the source point. The best pedigree I've found of Clown is on the Lemschlog site. Turn off the speakers, the background music is gagariffic.

[Greg Jennings]

I don't know much about Clown. What I know, I got from brief google-ing in order to needle Tom (TAK) Kosmanek (sp?)

But, I got the impression at the time that he was Moesgaard's dog. I guess I totally missed the Schatten's JJ branch (thank you for the Lehmschlog's pointer!). Whatever the paper, he was a 3-time NFC. Hard to argue with from a field trial perspective.

Too, usually about this time, Dave Quindt comes in and reminds us that sometimes the older pedigrees aren't 100% reliable.

Greg J.

[proudag08]

...even if he is an aggie.

What he meant to say is "because he is an Aggie!"

Thanks for all the input guys! I really am trying to do my research. Just to be clear and provide some more specifics here is what I am looking for in a dog. I want a family pet.

He leaves the house at 5:30am and comes home about 8-9 pm every night. His wife is a city girl about 5'3 and 105lbs wet.

Unlike mcbosco's friend here I will be around more than his friend and my wife is a country girl that doesnt mine getting dirty, case in point, we are doing this http://www.warriordash.com/register2010 ... _texas.php this weekend!

Second, I want it to be a hunter. Now when I say hunter I mean a hunter in the most general sense of the word.

Are you looking for a dog to take hunting a few times a year? Are you looking for the next potential all-age champion? Something in the middle perhaps?

To answer this question, I am looking for something in the middle. When I think about breaking into this sport I get excited which leads me to believe that I will be the type that will love to just watch a dog work, whether in a trial (further down the line) or just out in the field. I like a challenge and from what I gather from this forum there is none greater than training a gun dog to be a great gun dog. However, being a newbie I dont want to get a dog that has great genes, but then get frustrated because its so hard headed.

As far as range and things go, I dont want a "boot-licker" (am I allowed to use gun dog slang as a newbie? ) but I dont want a dog that runs 1.6 miles as soon as I let it loose Most of the places I would hunt are going to be places that I need to keep a fairly good watch on the dog so it wont roam where we are not allowed. The property lines out in the country here are guarded with ferver so I dont want to rustle any feathers.

Not so personel with people who she's doen't know

This is a deal breaker with me. They must be people dogs. I will hopefully get to the point to where I can take her everywhere with me and she be totally content running and playing with whoever is willing. Not to mention, my wife and I will have kids during the dogs lifestyle so I need a dog that adjusts well to new people

If you are more specific with your questions, they can provide valuable knowledge.

Granted more info, as far as what he is looking for is needed

I hope this gives more info on what I am looking for.

[Greg Jennings]

Just chiming in, I took the criteria to be:

1. Family dog including kid friendly.
2. Newbie friendly from a trainability standpoint.
3. Foot-hunting upland/warm-water waterfowl versatile.

I think we've also now kind of added:

4. Middle of the road in terms of range, with some shine that would lend pride of ownership with possibilities of some testing/introductory trialing down the road.

We've talked a lot about various field trial lines...and with good reason. I think you should also call the local NAVHDA chapter and go check out a training day. NAVHDA would be a great training asset in the future in addition to being a good place for you to check out the dogs now.

I don't know beans about it, but you might check into a DKV group in your area. I haven't gone there before because someone else chimed in...and because I've thought that you would have a hard time with availability, timing and price.

Greg J.

PS: Anything to help an Aggie. My son's God Parents are both Aggies.

[Cajun Casey]

I don't know much about Clown. What I know, I got from brief google-ing in order to needle Tom (TAK) Kosmanek (sp?)

But, I got the impression at the time that he was Moesgaard's dog. I guess I totally missed the Schatten's JJ branch (thank you for the Lehmschlog's pointer!). Whatever the paper, he was a 3-time NFC. Hard to argue with from a field trial perspective.

Too, usually about this time, Dave Quindt comes in and reminds us that sometimes the older pedigrees aren't 100% reliable.

Greg J.

Clown was a Moesgaard dog through his top tail line, although M's IB was waaaaaaay back there. As far as pedigrees, sure some aren't reliable, but we should work with what is in the present or recent past, not with dogs twenty years gone. If anyone wants a good history, the Maxwell book published by Howell gives the begets of the breed. Even there, in print, suspicion is laid at the doorstep of Moesgaard's IB due to the dramatic change in the breed that began immediately after his extensive use as a sire. M's IB is noted serveral places as a sire that did not reproduce himself in appearance (hmmmmm???) and it is a good thing, judging from photos of him. Tell, on the other hand, lent a distinctive head type and set that has survived decades.

Were I going to pick a namebrand bloodline for the OP's consideration, I'd send him to Hustler dogs. I'm sure there are other suitable bloodlines out there and he would likely be perfectly happy with show type dog properly trained, but that is a kettle of fish I've never stirred.

[kbshorthairs]

I don't mind helping a dog guy.......but I have to ignore the aggie part.

some of my personal observations

-it is easier to shorten up a dog's range than to stretch one out
-good genes do not equal hard headedness
-don't listen to hearsay about a dog........ask his owner or people that have watched him perform about the dog
-GSP's are eager to please and will do anything you train them to do.......water work.....jumping over girlfriend etc...
-a fantastically bred dog does not guarantee a fantastic dog.........but is sure helps the odds!

[Greg Jennings]

As far as pedigrees, sure some aren't reliable, but we should work with what is in the present or recent past, not with dogs twenty years gone.

Agreed. Look at the dog. If you can't look at dog, look at the parents. Use the pedigree as a tool.

Were I going to pick a namebrand bloodline for the OP's consideration, I'd send him to Hustler dogs.

If the timing were better, I'd have already had him hooked up with a really nice one.

I'm sure there are other suitable bloodlines out there and he would likely be perfectly happy with show type dog properly trained, but that is a kettle of fish I've never stirred.

That's a great thing about GSPs, there is so much good stuff out there. If it was a show breeding, I'd have to see the parents demonstrate in the field or have someone that I super trusted tell me that the parents were hunting fools.

[mcbosco]

What dual purpose lines of GSP's come to mind?

[kensfishing]

Yes the PJ Wildfire bitch doen't really care for people she doesn't know. Alot of that was from Arizona and where the kennels were located. Alot of illegals went up and down the alley and teased her, along with kids that didn't belong. I just hunted with one of her year and a half old pups and he 's a big love. Did great with all of my other dogs we put on the ground with him. It's not her fault she's that way, strangers did it, but she's a love and throws outstanding pups. Don't judge a book by the cover, see what's inside.

[Dave Quindt]

FC Dixielands Rusty
NFC/FC Rawhides Clown
FC/AFC Rusry't Blue Earth Rexx
NAFC/FC/AFC P J Wildfire

Any and all info would be great! Thanks!

Does anyone have a dog out of this bloodline? I am a newbie so go easy on me.

So here's the problem; there was no Dixieland Rusty bloodline. Same for Clown. Steve Lithgow bred a bit on Rexx, but that didn't go very far.

The one "bloodline" you mention is PJ Wildfire, which has been bred across a number of generations.

Now, you're probably saying "what do you mean there's no Dixieland's Rusty bloodline; he's in almost every pedigree?"

A bloodline is created by by a person or small group of people (with a common goal) breeding a pool of dogs over multiple generations. Sometimes it's built around a specific dog, sometimes it's built around a specific "type" of dog. But a line is the result of a specific effort to produce dogs over multiple generations.

What makes dogs like Rusty and Clown different than say PJ Wildfire is that those dogs were bred to lots of different females, and those breeders took those offspring and bred them to whatever they wanted. What didn't happen was that the breeders/owners/trainers of those dogs didn't build lines of their own from those dogs, or if they did those efforts were very short-lived. The result was the offspring of those influential sires ended up in the breeding programs of lots of different people, all with differing ideas of how those dogs should be bred. Now, there are lot of fantastic lines that contain dogs like Rusty and Clown, including lines that have linebred on those dogs. But these are lines created by breeders who often have no actual experience with the dogs they claim to have influenced their dogs.

The Wildfire line is a good example of an actual line; the guy who owned, trained and handled PJ Wildfire has bred multiple generations of dogs in an attempt to continue carrying forward those traits that made PJ Wildfire a great dog.

There is an actual Wildfire line today; there is no Dixieland line today. I own a number of dogs with Rusty on both sides of the pedigree but I would dare call them Dixieland Rusty-bred or Rusty line-bred or from Dixieland lines because it's not just accurate.

As Greg has been hinting at this entire thread, focus on traits and not paper. The best breeders I know can take a bunch of unregistered dogs with unknown pedigrees and breed some pretty nice pups. But those are the guys who focus on spending time with the actual dog, and not with their heads deep in some 15 generation pedigree analysis. And yes, anyone who takes a pedigree as a completely accurate representation of the dog's actual genetic history isn't being honest with themselves.

JMO,
Dave

[kbshorthairs]

good post Dave!

[TAK]

I don't know much about Clown. What I know, I got from brief google-ing in order to needle Tom (TAK) Kosmanek (sp?)

Hmmm? What?
And that is Kosmack! Said like KOZZ MACK! My blood is not true!

[Greg Jennings]

Ah, come on, Tom! What's one syllable between friends

[BigShooter]

but I dont want a dog that runs 1.6 miles as soon as I let it loose

I can answer this one with some generalizations. First of all there were five dogs in the litter & one runs big with All Age Field trial potential. POTENTIAL is a key phrase. Too many other things are needed besides run. Most of the other things are more important and for most people's purposes huge run is about the last thing to look for.

Why does a GSP run big the first time out in North Dakota?

1. Young dog
2. Couped up in a crate a lot before the trip, during the 6 1/2 hour trip & at camp before getting let out
3. Living in a big city & not exercised enough in a situation with lots of freedom
4. Letting a young dog run free to explore & learn without hacking or bending the dog
5. Insufficient quality obedience training ( A lot of time with a trainer but the trainer was asked to built confidence and provide lots bird exposure. There was no specific request to work on obedience training)
6. Lots of exposure to quail but little live hunting exposure

It is very common for many GSPs to run big for the thrill of being free their first time out on the prairies each year, even mature dogs. Like most dogs, even these young dogs settled down nicely after their first big run. My dog's pedigrees have three of the four dogs you mentioned in your first post and shares half of Clown's bloodline too.

Even though the bitch is the littermate of the current winningest All Age GSP, this is a good example of an unproven breeding of two very good working, intense, nicely conformed hunting dogs that also looked good on paper. Only time will tell whether the breeding proves to be good. Unless you plan to dabble in the breeding world, Greg's advice to look for proven dogs from a repeat breeding is sound.

[TAK]

Ah, come on, Tom! What's one syllable between friends

Believe me... being a cop that last name was slaughtered in many ways!... Trying to figure the Needle part?