Gun Dog Forum

I was just thinking about how all the places that used to have good bird hunting in the south have turned terrible in the past 20 years. Quail in the south, grouse in the southern appalachains, etc. Grouse are still prevalent in the north, and quail and pheasant are still prvalent in the west. What gives with the South East? I'm sure there are more people, but that can't account for places that are national forests, and have had no such explosion in population. What gives?

Fire ants, modern agricultural practices, timber production/practices, and here in Fl: loss of habitat due to development on high ground. Oh IMO(at least where I live) feral cats!

My dog in my avatar is on a 1000 acre piece in Central FL. that listed for $20,000,000 in 2004(according to the manager). It didn't sell, thank goodness.most high ground here got locked up pretty qwick. I'm on two hunting leases(deer, hog, and turkey) totaling 36,000 acres and there is quail on both, but they're managed for timber. It's either cypress swamp, six foot high saw palmetto and dog fennel(young pines) rough clear-cuts, or tall pines after being sprayed to kill all competeing growth. not much for birds here.

After they timber they spray again to kill all existing brush before they replant. Not condeming, it's just good managment practices for timber. Most of the timber land now is on the old coastal flatwoods that don't drain well. I'll be quiet now..

In Florida there is a lot of state owned piney woods but 99% of it is worthless. There's one place down the highway where they lost a fire a few years a go that opened up nicely but it's like 50acres .

There's just not much management for birds here. Citrus WMA is beautiful woods, lots of tall pines with broomsage and blackjack oaks, but not many birds though they do/did hold some field trials on the south end. I hunt my dog there after deer season, sometimes she finds a few birds, but usually she just gets a lot of exercise There is still some private land that is run right for birds but it costs$$$$.

If a guy was a serious bird hunter, he might think about accidently throwing a cigarette in the pines on a windy day in a dry spell.

Here in Louisiana the quail are down really badly, mainly due to farming practices etc. You can still find a covey are two but not like when I was a kid.

You got dove, duck etc but no real upland hunting until .......... woodcock season!! It can be pretty nice

Gentlemen,
Its not just in the south, but thru out the entire country that small game and bird populations have been adversely effected. Habitat plays one part, but the big
problem is the protected avian & ground predators. When I was a boys we shot avian predators on sight, we trapped for money the ground predators and there were bounties on fox and Coyotes, in my generation we had fine small game hunting thru out the country, especially here in Pa. You can blame most of the changes on politics
and the liberal establishment, that would like very much to take away your rights to gun ownership. Do you actually think the treaties protecting avian birds are to benifit the avian birds. These same law were instituted in Germany way back, now only the elite rich are able to hunt in German and most of Europe. Politicians have just expanded their grip into the USA with similar laws. It been a lot harder to accomplish what the liberal politicians want here, our 2nd Amendments still stands tall but
if there is little small game in the woods for boys and girls to learn to hunt, the better the politicians like it. It started in Germany the exact same way, they however did not have a 2nd Amendment or Constitution. If we could eliminate the treaties protecting the avian predators and reinstitute hunting bounties on ground predators we would have our great small game population back, thru out most of the country.
RGD/Dave

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:... If we could eliminate the treaties protecting the avian predatiors and reinstitute hunting bounties on ground predators we would have our great small game population back, thru out most of the country.
RGD/Dave

Nope...land use, attitude toward forest management and population increases would need to change for help to begin...and none of that is likely.
I suppose we could give 10,000 Eastern kids a box of kitchen matches each but barring that killing raptors will do little but be a feel good response to those who like to kill....speaking of ruffed grouse benefit specifically.
I would expect more benefit with prairie species and raptor reduction.
Killing nest predators would help most but the deer boys with all their game feeders and a growing population keep the nest predator population growing and becoming stronger and stronger with DNRs happy to take the easy management road for deer and turkeys.
Actually ruffed grouse populations we often hear touted were unnaturally high due to turn-of-the-century logging excesses, fires and land abandonment....no way to approach those same conditions today...nor should we.
A lot of dreamland stuff re old ruffed grouse days....silly dreamland stuff.
Manage forests for diversity in age class, yes....waste time in an attempt to repeal raptor protection no...foolishness in the extreme.
Working toward unproven biomass possibilities(like in Ohio) is also good but carries a lot yet untested...we would need millage and plants for all that could be cut and "not in my backyard" is still a popular idea.

Issues with the SE and Quail are well known....more difficult than Central Appalachian ruffed grouse issues.
Southern Apps grouse will slowly fade to a low level and stabilize for awhile...then bye-bye over the longest term.

Politics is involved in any game decline only in so far as the voting Public is so misinformed over proper game and land management prescriptions...politicos court votes and little else.
Clearcuts or CRP set-asides....votes are the operative thought.
Too many want the problem to be larger than a lack of public understanding and simple progress.

Mountaineer,
Some of what you say holds true, especially that of the differing habitat. In 1889 - 1899 when my Grandfather was a young man the forest had not yet been harvested in mass.
There were Grouse and small game every where, there were many less deer and turkey however. The PGC had a 10 Grouse limit per day here in Pa and they shot as many rabbits as they wanted to supplement their food supply and income. The forest in that era was in many different stages of growth, but there was not as much forest back then, we actually have more forest in the USA now than in that era. In that era as in mine they shot avian predators on sight and trapped to make money, killed
ground predators such as fox and cats on sight also, to assure good game populations. The Grouse population which you think was cause by the massive logging, already existed many years prior to the massive logging, however logging did safe guard most all small game for many many years. In fact J. A. Knight covers some of this in his Woodcock and Grouse books. Most times we do not look at what the forest was like before the massive logging, in general it was almost the perfect mixture of all different
forest stages and small game flurished because of the habitat and the men who kept the predators in decent numbers. I was lucky to spend time with man who grew up in that era, he passed away in 1969. I learned a great deal from him, and from my father also, massive forest logging did not produce small game numbers as much as it assured the reproduction of what was already established. My brother Kurt was so interested in all this that he has a degree in Foresty Degree from WVU and a Masters in Industrial Forestry from WVU also. When people say not to cut the forest, they have little, if no idea what they are really talking about. We have more forest in the USA today than we ever had in the past.
RGD/Dave

Having one time looked at the Pa. grouse limits from earliest records on, I know they were 10/day.
Having one time looked at the Pa. grouse limits from earliest records on, I also know the limit did not remain at 10 for long.
They, in fact, went up and down with the average lower than 10 as I recall...and season length varied considerably in Pennsy as well.
Hunters had an affect on ruffed grouse even back then and management of ruffed grouse was in it's infancy...as was sport hunting of ruffed grouse.
There was a learning curve re grouse seasons and limits even in areas with artifically high grouse populations.
Interesting that Ohio recently dropped the month of February, faaaar too late and too short in time, but they finally found that February saw 40% of the ruffed grouse harvested and hunter time in the woods.
Hunters play a role in the decline even today in some areas stressed by other more signifacant factors in the decline.

Killing any ruffed grouse predator will change the area surrounding that predator...but little else of importance even region-wide.
Pennsylvania does have it tough being on a hawk migration corridor down the spine of the mountains but raptor-popping is a waste of time to rant against.

I suspect that there were fewer ruffed grouse before logging than after....the few wildfires that seasonably occurred or indian-induced fires to create the balds simply did not have enough fuel or conditions to support equivalent landscape alterations as did logging and post-logging/coal populations.
Sometimes, old folks remember with a fondness not based in reality...or they may have lived in a pocket that represented little but that pocket.

I would not doubt that Ol' E N Woodcock himself may have told a tall tale or three in his day!

Mountaineer,
Sounds like you have been influence by GBE's thoughts, however even WVa where he lived many years of his adult life, disagreed with his unproven opinion. In fact the Pa, RGS study showed exactly oppsite was true.
The Grouse limit in VWa is still 4 per day and the season still goes thru February. PGC had a hard time justifying their two bird limit & limiting our actual Grouse season, especially after Bill Plamer, our retiering Pa Grouse biologist, came out and said there is no real scientific proof that sport Grouse hunting effects over all Grouse populations what so ever. The PGC politicians went nuts however and we did not get our season expanded into Feb, as was requested. No reason ever given to the Pa hunters. Ohio has had problems with their game management program for many many generations, most sportsman who live in Ohio, hunt Pa for good reason.
RGD/Dave

When our deer and turkey numbers went way up,our small game numbers went way down.

Not really RGD,no... many studies have inferred no hunter additivity but few, other than one in the Northern lower of Michigan actually did the specific work to see what small effect hunters have.
And it is small, especially rangewide, but when populations are decining or at very low levels, lesser decline effects become greater in degree, especially locally.
I know and have read the Penn. study...not sure I would call that a RGS study...some would I suppose.

WVa is far different than Ohio where covers can be accessed thru February from many entrance points...WVa has areas with snow and mountains to limit hunter additivity.
Much as the great lakes states, tho to a lesser degree....and the Keystone state.
Plus, many WVers would complain with a shorter season as misguided Ohioians compalined over a season shortening...basically thru a mistaken view of hunter additivity re local populations.
Your Pa. birds are lucky with the season you have now...the PGC is still looking out for grouse....good for them!
Pa. hunters are lucky to have the PGC compared to DNRs in some surrounding states.

Ohio had grouse populations at one time to rival many areas...population growth, a Wayne NF at 3.4% early successional and little state forest has brought the pigeons home to roost.
Actually, pops seem up in a few places this year but they are only blips from some good springs, etc. and not a trend.

Do not make the mistake of taking either local conditions or rangewide conditions and making sweeping judgements everywhere for the ruffed grouse.
Palmer was speaking of a narrow view...as would be prudent for him.
A wise man does not quit thinking when he hears the results he most desperately wants to hear...the wise man continues to think and reason.

Moutaineer,
Bill Palmer never had a narrow view in his biological life, he made a true statement and recommendation as the PGC Grouse biologist, to extend the Pa Grouse season
for the Pa Grouse hunters. On occasion I taught class with him at Penn State for the RGS, he backed up every statement he ever made with biological fact, its why the PGC never gave the Pa Grouse hunters any written reason for not extending Grouse season here in Pa. The politicians in the PGC simply did what ever they wanted when the biological facts did not meet what they wanted to do. We have a political problem in our PGC, always have. However now that we have Eric Miller as the Chief PGC Biologist for all the Pa State Game lands, the Pa Grouse hunters are hoping for some improvements. Eric is a big time Grouse and Woodcock hunter/biologist whos new study on Woodcock is to be released shortly. We do have some hope.

RGD/Dave

I reckon Bill Palmer knew enough to not mix yellow apples and red apples and call them equal.
He was a good fella for Penn. grouse...believe it or not, the PGC is head and shoulders above most DNRs.
Focus a little wider and that would be clear.

I believe Miller was doing work on invasive plant species and woodcock, no?
Canaan Valley has just such a problem issue.
Miller does seem a good young fella at any helm.
Any DNR is very, very political...hope he does well in the PGC.

I'll watch to see a February 28th ending date for Pennsylvania grouse hunting.
Fingers uncrossed tho...for the grouse's interest...I could not care less for the grouse hunter's interest, even in my 46th season after them.
They need hunters more concerned for them than the hunting of them.

Just an observation. I'm from southern WV, and when I was a teenager, early 90's, the grouse population was fantastic. The timber stands were nearing maturity, but our wild grapes, laurel thickets, and greenbriar ridges always held birds. This habitat is still there by the way. Grouse hunters were everywhere at this time, and the grouse were always there. Then came the coyotes toward the end of that decade and bam, can't remember the last time I've heard a grouse drum. Logging and surface mining have brought the numbers up slightly, but nowhere near what they used to be. You're lucky if you can find someone that even calls himself a bird hunter in that region these days. I trust the eye test more than any study done by anyone. I know what I've experienced, and I know what I see. Predation is taking a HUGE toll on grouse and turkeys. I can remember hearing 5 to 10 birds on any given morning during spring gobbler season during my high school years. Again, the coyotes sprung up, and the birds got quiet. I don't have all the answers on how to fix this, but I do kill every coyote, fox, and bobcat that I see, and I think that if there was more incentive to do so more people would, but if you trust your DNR and state government to help take care of the problem, you're pissing up a rope. This is our country, these are OUR animals, and if we want to fix these issues we have to do it ourselves. I'm not sure that debating amongst each other on who's more right is the most productive solution either. We're all hunters, and I think for the most part, we're all in it to improve and enjoy the resources that we have.

Redman,
Very well said sir.
RGD/Dave

This has been a very informative thread. I'd thought all this time that Pennsylvania was in the North. Glad to know how important Penn. is to "Southern hunting".

From my view, it is a threefold problem.
First of all, farming has become a very different animal than it used to be, even 20 years ago. I can well remember the influx of game around harvest time. We'd begin to see doves, rabbits, and ducks galore, always timed with grain harvests. In turn, the coyote and predator populations would boom. Now, farm equipment is so efficient, and so little grain is wasted, or left for the game animals, that you hardly see any difference at all in populations. I'm sure that the quail and pheasant populations are no different. This is even more evident as cotton acreage is virtually nill, and grain crops are far more numerous than they were when I was a kid. Also, every available acre of farmland is being used and the "wasted" land is being minimized. I grew up in East Carrol Parish in the extreme NorthEast of Louisiana. I know that whole darn parish like the back of my hand, and I can tell you that a whole bunch of slews, and treelines that used to be unfarmable are now being farmed. Land is now so valuable, and the grain prices so high, that previously unusable land is now worth spending the $$$ on and put into production. From what I've read, other states, north of us, have vast acres of CRP and WRP land available for the wildlife. We have some, but not much, and less and less every year.
Secondly, the land that isn't being used for farming row crops is being used for timber, and as has been stated already, they are using far more herbicides and don't burn at all anymore (or at least very, very rarely). I'd personally love to see large burns begin to be instituted, but it just won't happen. If we were in an area where wild fires were more frequent, maybe, but we rarely see a wildfire in Louisiana, so the herbicides are easier and cheaper for the timber companies. Those herbicides kill most all of the food sources for the quail and smaller animals for around a year, as the main ones used also have a residual effect in the soil, keeping new growth from occurring. I was just involved in a discussion about this on a Louisiana forum for deer hunting. A guy was just about to plant his food plots for deer, when he saw the helo spraying the pines. He was asking if it would kill his food plots. The resounding answer was yes, and every other food source as well, and it would last till next fall. Hard to keep bird populations when their food sources dry up right before winter. Like was also said, the timber companies make money leasing land to deer and turkey hunters, so they have their biologists cater to those populations.
Thirdly, is the predator problem, and I will add another predator to the list. Wild hogs wreak havoc on many populations. Hogs are omnivores, meaning they will eat anything. They will literally eat other hogs, and one of the best baits for a hog trap that there is is a live chicken in the trap. Hogs, while fun to hunt in their own right, are a plague, and I think that the arid nature of Texas and it's tendency to concentrate game is the only reason that they seem to coexist there. I can tell you that the turkey hunting will suffer greatly where ever the hogs move in in large numbers as well. A nest of eggs on the ground is gone in short order if a hog finds it. We also have huge populations of coyotes and various raptors so...

Dan,
Do you actually understand where the Mason/Dixon line truly is located sir.
RGD/Dave

Dav,
Yes, I do sir. I also understand how to end a question with a question mark. As to your query on my understanding of the Mason -Dixon line, I offer up this link. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... CDQQ9QEwAw

Pretty sure that Penn is STILL in the North, and certainly north of the Mason-Dixon line. I'll happily chalk this up to a mere brain fart on your part. I'll also happily add the ending back to your name in the future, if you'll do the same for me.

It seems that simply saying, "sorry for the tangent/hijack" would have been simpler and more appropriate. just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Can we get back to SOUTHERN hunting now?

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Dan,
Do you actually understand where the Mason/Dixon line truly is located sir.
RGD/Dave

No offense but when someone says Southern bird hunting I think of SC, GA, FL, ALA, MISS, and LA.. TX maybe, but more of a midwestern local, :roll: IMO. The rest of the states below the Mason-Dixon line have to darned many hills to be proper bobwhite country.

asc wrote:

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Dan,
Do you actually understand where the Mason/Dixon line truly is located sir.
RGD/Dave

No offense but when someone says Southern bird hunting I think of SC, GA, FL, ALA, MISS, and LA.. TX maybe, but more of a midwestern local, :roll: IMO. The rest of the states below the Mason-Dixon line have to darned many hills to be proper bobwhite country.

Maryland, virginia and delaware had quail thick as skeeters

I'm on a big ole hill, 22 feet above sealevel

This is from a GA poster on another forum:

"I just got in from a long week of work that started out on some plantations in South Carolina and ended in the Thomasville area and I am amazed at the number of birds that I have seen this week. I have been involved in quail management for the last 30 years in the southeast mostly in the Thomasville area and don't know if I have ever seen as many birds in my life as I have been seeing lately. Not only on plantations but everywhere! I even had a friend that lives in the city limits of Thomasville tell me he had a small covey in his backyard the other day. An early prediction on some lands around this area are for a possibility of 5-7 birds an acre. Simply put, this may be a record setting year.
Here is the really great news. The public land I have been on looks very good. Ragweed is so thick you could combine it. The dry weather has been very good for the later hatch of chicks and survival has been excellent. I will be doing covey counts with the National Forest Service in late october and some other goverment agencies and will have a better idea then on the true population but from what I have seen with my own eyes, this is setting up to be one of the best quail hunting years ever. "

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

Gentlemen,
If you will please go back and reread my 1st post in this thread you will see I said that the problem was not just in the south,
and I sure did not mean to hi-jack the thread, was just trying to make things interesting. I do understand what most hunters think of when they say southern hunting is
Texas, Georgia, Alabama and such. I was pointing out that the real mason/Dixon line is not where most people believe it is, its in Pa.

zz,
I do hope the Quail season turns out to be as fine as you believe, would love to see my dogs working a covey this far north.
RGD/Dave

My post was just a little tounge in cheek I sure hope the quail outlook is that good.

Daniel77,
I do know something about southern hunting, I lived in Slidell, La for many years, and my home on Coin De Lestin Dr is gone now, thanks to the lattest big Hurricane.
Part of the Woodcock nesting grounds were right on my bayou property against the Lake. I will use your proper named from now on, I did not mean to insult you in any way.
I still have family in the Baton Rouge area. If you hunt birds and Wood Ducks as we did using our dogs, keep an eye pealed for the Gators. Good luck with your up coming southern hunting season.
RGD/Dave

Dave,
Thanks for that, and I'm glad that you've had the joy of living down here in God's Country. I am watering at the mouth for the upcoming woodcock season myself, but we have to wait till Dec. You couldn't be more correct about the gators. I wish that they'd let us take many more than they do. My parent's next door neighbor lost a very nice yellow lab, in his prime, this past spring when his mother let it out to relieve itself. That's a terrible way to lose a dog, and a terrible thing to watch happen. I haven't let my dog in the marsh yet just for this reason. Good huntin'.

birddog1968 wrote:

asc wrote:

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Dan,
Do you actually understand where the Mason/Dixon line truly is located sir.
RGD/Dave

No offense but when someone says Southern bird hunting I think of SC, GA, FL, ALA, MISS, and LA.. TX maybe, but more of a midwestern local, :roll: IMO. The rest of the states below the Mason-Dixon line have to darned many hills to be proper bobwhite country.

Maryland, virginia and delaware had quail thick as skeeters

I'm on a big ole hill, 22 feet above sealevel

How 'bout a little love for the Volunteer State as well!

BrassVol,
Man that hill looks like Lancaster county, Pa after harvest time! Yep there were Quail populations there also a long time ago.
RGD/Dave

No birds here all these big running dogs that range too far to shoot over chased all the bobs north no need to head this way

tn red wrote:No birds here all these big running dogs that range too far to shoot over chased all the bobs north no need to head this way

Nice!

How 'bout a little love for the Volunteer State as well! [/quote]I thought the Gators gave you all the LOVE y'all needed last Sat.?

asc wrote:How 'bout a little love for the Volunteer State as well!

I thought the Gators gave you all the LOVE y'all needed last Sat.? [/quote]
ROLL TIDE my friend . only orange here is in the dog box

I'm kinda partial to FSU anyway..

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:BrassVol,
Man that hill looks like Lancaster county, Pa after harvest time! Yep there were Quail populations there also a long time ago.
RGD/Dave

Thats the Eastern Shore of Md RGD

Geauuuuuuuuuuux Tigeeeeerrrrrrrrs!

daniel77 wrote:Geauuuuuuuuuuux Tigeeeeerrrrrrrrs!

Hope they have "Country Roads" on standby in Baton Rouge. They're gonna need it.........Go Eers!

What was it we were hunting? And where?

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:What was it we were hunting? And where?

Ezzy

Oops, college football just ruins everything!

tn red wrote:

asc wrote:How 'bout a little love for the Volunteer State as well!

I thought the Gators gave you all the LOVE y'all needed last Sat.?

ROLL TIDE my friend . only orange here is in the dog box[/quote]

Just when I was starting to think you were a good guy!

asc wrote:How 'bout a little love for the Volunteer State as well!

I thought the Gators gave you all the LOVE y'all needed last Sat.? [/quote]

Such is life....one state has a hot football team....the other state a rich history and great bird dogs!

Daniel77,
Long before La was a state or even a Territory, Potter County, Pa was Gods country and it remains so today, we still have more Deer, Bear, Turkey and wild Trout than we do people. Although La is much like my 2nd home, Potter County is the original Gods Country of the USA and always will be. Not only are there big log signs along the roads
going in and out of the county, the legal documents of the county carry the Gods Country designation also.
La is not bad, but Gods country is the mountains of Potter County, Pa, in which I was born.
RGD/Dave

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Daniel77,
Long before La was a state or even a Territory, Potter County, Pa was Gods country and it remains so today, we still have more Deer, Bear, Turkey and wild Trout than we do people. Although La is much like my 2nd home, Potter County is the original Gods Country of the USA and always will be. Not only are there big log signs along the roads
going in and out of the county, the legal documents of the county carry the Gods Country designation also.
La is not bad, but Gods country is the mountains of Potter County, Pa, in which I was born.
RGD/Dave

I'd say this a debatable issue at the very least...ask 100 people across our great country and I'm sure you'll get 100 seperate answers.
Even though it was ingrained into me since birth that Southern Middle TN was God's Country, I'll go on record saying that I'm not exactly sure where God's Country is but I'm 100% certain it's somewhere in the South!!!

Its ALL gods country!!! If you dont think so you just not looking at it right.

northern cajun wrote:Its ALL gods country!!! If you dont think so you just not looking at it right.

Amen to that!

northern cajun wrote:Its ALL gods country!!! If you dont think so you just not looking at it right.

Excellent point! No argument here!

RGD,
You must be bored today?

Daniel77,
Yea its a slow day for sure.
RGD/Dave