DUAL SANCTIONED CHAMPIONSHIPS

[ddshine]

ARGUMENT AGAINST DUAL SANCTIONING CHAMPIONSHIPS
There are several reasons why the dual sanctioning of NGSPA championships should not be done. The idea of dual sanctioning these field trial, whether an option or not, needs to be abandoned. The NGPSA was established in 1953 by a group of field trialers trying to create a better dog. The founders of the NGSPA did not think the AKC venue was a sufficient test to create better dogs. So dedicated they decided to defer from the AKC program and establish the hour championships that were sanctioned under the rules of the American Field. The members of this organization realized that continuing to just run 30 minute stakes under the guidelines of the AKC was not going to give them the breeding stock for the type of dog that is needed to run and be competitive in one hour championships.
• I do not feel there will be increase participation at these events due to dual sanctioning because most people can run and obtain AKC points at other trials held every weekend across the country for a much smaller entry fee.
• There are really no more just NGSPA "ONLY" pros anymore. Many championships run in conjunction with an AKC trial with one being at the beginning or end of a week-long championship....Where we make champions during the week and finish FC/AFC's on the weekend.
• The finishing of dogs for a FC/AFC title should not be an issue for the NGSPA board to be discussing. We put on and promote the hour dog and hour championships not AKC titles.
• As far as the point of giving serious AKC trialers who plan on entering their dog at the AKC nationals a venue to run a dog, the NGSPA already gives them a venue where their dogs ability can be evaluated, without being dual sanctioned. It is their choice whether they choose to attend and making it dual sanctioning is not going to make them jump on board and start running championships.
• A primary point to be considered, when did it become the NGSPA's role to promote getting dogs qualified for the AKC national championship? For many years the AKC national has had almost double sometimes triple the entries of the NGSPA nationals. The NGSPA board of trustees should be concerned about getting more dogs qualified for their own national championships. If it was so hard for dogs to qualify for the AKC nationals their numbers would indicate that. A simple solution to this problem needs to be addressed by the GSPCA board for which they could start to recognize the NGSPA championships as qualifiers for their nationals without them being dual sanctioned. This would make more sense to me and many others. If you have a problem getting dogs qualified for the AKC nationals go and speak with the organization that sanctions that trial which would be the GSPCA, not the NGSPA.
• By dual sanctioning these championships with the AKC the clubs putting on these events will incur more cost. They are charging an application fee of $50 and a per dog fee of at least $3.50-$7.00. Most clubs will in turn have to pass this expense onto the field trial participants. With the economic conditions that exist today, it is not a good idea to increase the cost to the very people we are trying to attract.
• By dual sanctioning these championships the judges must be approved by the AKC. Many of the judges that are needed to, or should be judging our trials are not AKC approved. Many of them are not going to take time out of their busy schedules to take the AKC test to come and Judge these dual sanctioned trials. This is a problem because we don't need, nor want, any AKC minded judges adjudicating over our hour dogs. This will lower the standards, which in turn will eventually, over time diminish the breed down to real "gun dogs". If we want to be recognized and respected as an American Field breed, we as clubs need to get the best possible judges we can afford. Most of the time because a person is close to the venue and has horses is the only criteria some clubs use to select judges. This degrades the entire principal of the hour dog.

[Hotpepper]

The issues here raised are understandable to me. I have been involved a long time with both organizations. The difference in the two will always be quite distinguishable.

My question is, "Why have you posted the letter so well written here, that should be direct to Tom Davis and the board of the NGSPA. "

I only know that the division between the two has existed for a long time. I recently brought to the field trial committee the idea of allowing dogs with NGSPA hour wins to be eligible for the GSPCA nationals, all accepted until it reached the GSPCA board which rejected.

I strongly support the dual sanctioning of the events and know that people have worked long to accomplish it.

Jerry

[Wagonmaster]

Dan I completely agree with the proposition that the purpose of the NGSPA is to improve the breed through the sanctioning of hour championships. I read your post and almost all of it had nothing to do with whether dual sanctioning will impair that purpose or not. Sure it will cost clubs a small amount in fees to host a dual sanctioned trial, so what? And the clubs have the complete right to choose to dual sanction or not.

The one item in your post where you did raise the issue of a declining standard is your point about judges, and that they need to be AKC judges. That was expressly considered by the Board and do you know what we found? Every single judge that we regularly use for hour championships, is an AKC qualified judge. There isn't going to be any change in who the judges are right now, there is no need for a change. Pick somebody you know who judges. Aldrich? AKC qualified. Davis? Same. Me. Same. if you you go around the table you will find everyone is qualified. I think the real concern is that clubs will start using people who are not qualified to judge hour championships, and that just is not going to happen. These are NGSPA hour championships run under the NGSPA rules and culture, they are not going to be AKC weekend, half hours.

[DGFavor]

I know judges who judge NGSPA events that aren't AKC registered judges - I think my buddy Rich is reading the AKC juding manual right now so he can go judge at Cheyenne. AKC Judging for Dummies.

These are NGSPA hour championships run under the NGSPA rules and culture, they are not going to be AKC weekend, half hours.

I really hesitate to get involved in this discussion because I wanna be positive/supportive but...I don't personally know what the long standing culture of the NGSPA is since I'm such a young fellar. I have read the history and beginning "mission statement" of sorts on the NGSPA website and I have to say it's description is much different than my personal experience with NGSPA trials over the last, maybe 8 years or so. I'm always worried I'm gonna burn bridges with my GSP brethren with public criticism, I sure don't want to, but it's my experience that NGSPA trials are AKC trials twice as long...same planted bird, run in circles mentality - even the wild bird trials miss the point IMO (well the one wild bird trial I've been to several times at least - don't want to blanket statement the trials I haven't attended). In reading the NGSPA accounting of the history, the original players all seemed to come from AF backgrounds and used that format as their premise and goal feeling that format would help them to further the breed, filling a void the AKC format was missing. Nowadays, again IME since I haven't met everyone, you'd be hard pressed to find a "major player" in the NGSPA that has even participated in or even been to an open breed AF trial in their life - they almost all IME come from AKC beginnings and thus arrive to the NGSPA with that as their only experience/model to go on. In general, they're a far cry from the open breed AF trials IMO...but thats me one cog in the wheel and the good news is, there is always the option not to play or play elsewhere. I never thought this would be the case but I agree with Dan - very well done BTW, I'm impressed!

http://www.ngspa.org/early-years.html

[Greg Jennings]

Are there any Championships that are dual?

What events/actions are driving this debate?

Greg J.

[shags]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but something to consider is that when a trial is dual-sanctioned, AKC wants their rules/format to take precedence over those of the other body. So you'd have an akc trial at the end of the day.

[Greg Jennings]

AKC wants their rules/format to take precedence over those of the other body. So you'd have an akc trial at the end of the day.

Please support that conclusion. I don't see how it follows.

I think I could set up an AKC trial that no one, other than the trial secretary (because he would have to work with the AKC) and the judges (because they, evidently, now have to take the AKC judging test...AF judges used to be grandfathered in) could tell was an AKC trial.

Don't get the idea that I'm a huge AKC advocate. I'm totally agnostic about the organizations. I want a good course, good birds, good judges and good food. Don't care who gets the fee.

[Wagonmaster]

This is a carryover from a question that was raised about the Chukar Championship in the Chukar Championship thread under Events.

These are hour championships, and to reiterate what was said over on the other thread, the NGSPA Rules and way of conducting trials will predominate. Keith Richardson, Tom Davis, and Terry Chandler from the NGSPA Board are tasked with working out any differences, but the only insurmountable difference at this point appears to be the way of determining Derby ages, so clubs have to choose whether a Derby will be AKC or NGSPA sanctioned. The broke dog stakes will be dual sanctioned.

Whether to run a trial as a dual sanctioned trial is entirely up to the NGSPA Championship host club holding the trial. What the clubs are doing is forming one of the fairly new field-trial-only AKC clubs and doing the dual sanctioning through that club.

The program is being worked out cooperatively between the NGSPA Board Committee and AKC Event Staff. Those of you who know who AKC Event Staff are should reread this part.

The trials that are being dual sanctioned are all long standing NGSPA hour championships. They are going to continue to be NGSPA hour championships.

For a very long time it has been my observation that there are too many negatory viewpoints in field trialing, and with all due respect to the GSP trialers I have known for several decades now, they sometimes fit into that category. So it is not unheard of to run against a handler in a trial that will try to see to it that the bracemate does not get around. Why, I don't know, because if people like this thought about it, they would realize there are about 32 other dogs in the stake that they have to beat also. And there is no pride in beating others by making them fail. Winning is at its best when your competitors do their best and you do better. Likewise, field trialers sometimes think that they are going to get ahead if some other person, or some other organization that they view as competition, fails.

The reality is, dogs are a small sport compared to golf or MLB or the NFL or NASCAR. We need to realize that a rising tide floats all boats, and stop putting all our time into seeing to it that the other guy's boat sinks.

What you are hearing about is a level of cooperation that has not been able to happen in some 6 or 7 decades. It needs to have a chance to work.

BTW I completely agree with Joe's comments about the quality of the hour championships and the dogs they create. I can't speak for the rest of the Board, but I am fairly confident that they will not allow the quality of the hour championships to be compromised in any way.

[Dave Quindt]

These are hour championships, and to reiterate what was said over on the other thread, the NGSPA Rules and way of conducting trials will predominate.

John,

Can you give an example or two of rules (not procedures, not guidelines, not things done "because that's the way they've always been done) where the NGSPA rule is different from the AKC rule and the NGSPA rule trumps the AKC rule?

Dave

[Wagonmaster]

I made the statement on the Chukar Championship thread that there are not alot of differences between the two sets of rules. Beyond that, I will leave it to the Board Committee of Keith, Tom, and Terry to evaluate and manage.

[lvrgsp]

So let me ask this. Will a NGSPA win or placement qualify the big going AF dog (who has a hard time qualifying in AKC events) qualify for the AKC Nats?....
Would that be one of the roots for the dual sanctioning?....
My concern isn't the hour stakes being compromised. Bringing the AKC in as a sanctioning body allows the NGSPA what exactly?
I really see only one reason to allow it, it is an opportunity for those hour dogs who have not finished or qualified to do just that....Or am I just looking at it all wrong?

[ddshine]

What does the NGSPA get out of dual sanctioning these trials?

[ddshine]

It was mentioned that the GSPCA turned down a proposal to accept NGSPA hour champions as qualified for the AKC national championships at eureka........The big question [size=150]WHY????????????????????????????????????[/size]

[lvrgsp]

Keep in mind that the GSPCA has rejected allowing dogs that have won an NGSPA championship to run at Eureka. Well it seems to me that the GSPCA is not looking to promote quality dogs or a quality national. Something else to keep in mind that the vast majority of dogs that have won at Eureka have also won championships.

No I only see this as a loss, loss for the NGSPA and shorthairs as a whole! It is up to the GSPCA to up-grade their standards not the NGSPA to lower theirs.

Ok kind of confusing here? The GSPCA keeps a dog who only has a NGSPA win out, but many of the winners at the GSPCA have hour wins as well?.......
heck man that's the dog I want....the one that can play both, not just the hour come and see me standing 2 miles ahead dog, the one that has to HANDLE in AKC trials as well. With the amount of entries that Eureka gets I find it hard to believe the GSPCA is keepin the DOG down.......
So what Non Quality Winner or RU at Eureka has kept them down? Sonny, Ben, Moon, Sky, Rip, Sonny, Scoop?.....the list goes on....or do you mean the dogs that cannot qualify for Eureka?

[remmy]

To give you an example, my dog is a Shooting Dog. She was qualified to run in Eureka a few years ago in the AA....but she is not an AA dog. She did not qualify for Eureka Gun Dog until last year. She also has 8 championship wins but is not a FC. She's not good enough to run in Eureka? Why didn't she qualify for Eureka until last year?...because she doesn't run in AKC trials every weekend, she is not heavily campaigned in AKC, comes in season and cant run , etc. She may only run in two or three AKC trials in the fall. I know of dogs that strictly run in Championships only. I'm sure they would like to have a crack at Eureka.

I'm not saying I agree with Dual Sanctioning but if GSPCA would allow NGSPA championship wins to qualify at Eureka it would benefit people like me!

[lvrgsp]

Rob,
Never said not good enough.....not qualified...Big difference...
She's qualified for the AA but she's not an AA dog at Eureka, but on the East Coast courses she is...Correct? She's an hour SD and a good one with 8 Ch's but you cannot get her AKC Gundog qualified,but she will run AKC AA right? So are you a victim of the courses you run or the system?

Some guys don't run AKC they only run AF Championships. Yet they should have a crack at the GSPCA Nat? Not sure I agree with that one.

[remmy]

I'm just a victim I guess...lol. Why shouldn't AF guys get a crack at Eureka? AKC FC's can run at the NGSPA nationals so why can't an NGSPA Ch run in the AKC nationals. What's good for the goose is good for the gander right? We're talking about the same breed of dog here...not a pointer or setter or brittany. All we're talking about are two organizations regarding the same breed of dog. One that recognizes both and one that won't recognize the other.

[lvrgsp]

So now with the new Dual sanctioning would a AKC OGD/ AGD win qualify you for a NOSDC or NASDC at Booneville, or do you have to be a FC? A win or placement in AKC is a whole different ballgame than having a AFC or FC......Would Any AF placement or win qualify or just a NGSPA event?....I dont have a dog going to either nat so not sure why it concerns me at this time....

[RayGubernat]

I do not have a "dog" in this fight, but it would seem to me that if an individual club wishes to do the paperwork for dual sanctioning and spend the money to have it dual sanctioned, then that is their business.

I will say this...having seen both NGSPA championship caliber dogs and AKC FC/AFC caliber dogs, if I were in the NGSPA, I would want to see that the level of competitiveness in the Shooting Dog category does not slide toward the level of the half hour AKC Gun Dog. From what I have seen here, they can be different dogs.

I would not be all that concerned about the all age category.

RayG

[Greg Jennings]

Are there other breed clubs that manage to do dual-sanctioned championships? How do they handle it?

[remmy]

So now with the new Dual sanctioning would a AKC OGD/ AGD win qualify you for a NOSDC or NASDC at Booneville, or do you have to be a FC? A win or placement in AKC is a whole different ballgame than having a AFC or FC......Would Any AF placement or win qualify or just a NGSPA event?....I dont have a dog going to either nat so not sure why it concerns me at this time....

I cut and paste this from Wagonmaster under a different thread:

The rules say that for the NASDC and NOSDC there are three ways to qualify.

1. Any previous winner or runner-up in an NGSPA National, Regional, or Specie (hour championships) is qualified for life, OR,

2.The winner of the Futurity is qualified for the following year only, OR,

3. the dog must participate in at least one NGSPA hour championship in the preceding year PLUS either (1) win a first place in one broke dog NGSPA sanctioned trial or (b) be an AKC field champion (AFC or FC) or record.

For the NASDC, the dog must be amateur handled in the qualifying events and in the NASDC, but the qualifying event itself does not have to be an Amateur event. In other words, if an Amateur runs a dog in an Open Shooting Dog stake at a Regional and wins, then the dog is qualified for the NASDC.

As for the NC itself, the Board changed the qualifications to make it a little easier to get in. I was there but doggone if I can remember the details. The old rule was that a dog could get in only by taking winner or r-u at a National, Specie, or Regional in any of the broke dog stakes, and then was qualified for life. As I recall the Board added the ability to qualify by taking a first in an AA stake in a sanctioned trial, but don't quote me on that one I am really unsure of the details. Go to http://www.ngspa.org, look up Jean Armbrust's number and call her, she will know. And say hello for me please.

[lvrgsp]

So you still have to participate in a NGSPA event PLUS be either a FC or AFC, not just an AKC placement. That is of course unless you have a NGSPA hour CH or placement.....

Now the NGSPA wants the dual sanctioned trials so the hour dogs that win will also be on record with the AKC and thus qualifying them for the GSPCA nats?

An individual that runs only AKC events will never be allowed to run at the NGSPA Nats unless as previously stated they are qualified?

Just trying to grasp all of this....

[Wagonmaster]

I have been flipping through the posts, and there a couple of things I would like to respond to. First, someone made the statement that the GSPCA does not allow dogs with NGSPA hour championships into the GSPCA Nationals, or words to that effect. I know what was meant, but the statement was misworded. The GSPCA does not exclude dogs from their Nationals that have an NGSPA hour championship. It is just that an NGSPA hour championship does not qualify dogs for the GSPCA. A dog with an NGSPA hour win can run in the GSPCA, but it needs to get there by qualifying with an AKC win or an FC/AFC, and the NGSPA wins don't get you there.

I agree with RayG's comments that we need to protect the quality of the NGSPA Shooting Dog stakes, and see to it that we still have true shooting dogs and not just AKC Gun Dogs winning our hour championships. There are many reasons that is not going to happen. One is that we have quite a few shooting dogs in the breed now, we are not in danger of running out or of not being able to breed good new ones. Another is that the people moving the ball forward on the dual sanctioned events are hour championship people through and through. There is no reason to be concerned that the quality of the events is going to go down. There is ongoing quality control of that kind at the NGSPA.

The Brittanies have dual sanctioned for years. I am not a Brittany guy and probably do not have a basis for commenting, so I won't except to say that no one on the NGSPA Board that I know, views the Brittany situation as a model for what is being done here.

Last but not least, the comments about "what is the NGSPA getting out of this?" As though the NGSPA needs to get something out of this program in order to justify doing it. That is just the wrong question to be asking, because dog organizations, if they are well run and principaled, and the NGSPA is certainly that, exist to better the breed, not to better their own ego's or selves or pockets or to "get something." The comments are acccurate that the GSPCA has rejected allowing dogs to qualify for the GSPCA Nationals by winning hour Championships. The NGSPA has allowed dogs to qualify for the NGSPA Nationals (other than the AA) for years, by becoming AKC FC/AFC's or by winning at dual sanctioned half hour trials. So one organization is unable to engage in any cooperation. So what. In a show dominated organization what do you expect? The reality is that the field trialers run in events of both organizations without any friction. Its the same people, handlers, and dogs at the events. The NGSPA stands for ways to make GSP field trialing work better, and for ways to better the breed. That's whats going on here. The NGSPA is not doing this because it is weak, or needs entries, there are frankly more hour trials right now than the schedule can accomodate, some event entries are down, others are up, way up, and the organization is doing very well.

The NGSPA is not looking to get anything out of this. It is doing this because it is the right thing to do for the breed, its that simple.

[Greg Jennings]

The Brittanies have dual sanctioned for years. I am not a Brittany guy and probably do not have a basis for commenting, so I won't except to say that no one on the NGSPA Board that I know, views the Brittany situation as a model for what is being done here.

Where I was coming from with my question was this: If another breed organization can figure it out and be successful, the NGSPA can figure it out and be successful. Sheesh, it isn't like it's Israeli-Palestinian Peace or something.

[Wagonmaster]

So you still have to participate in a NGSPA event PLUS be either a FC or AFC, not just an AKC placement. That is of course unless you have a NGSPA hour CH or placement.....

For the NGSPA National Shooting Dog Stakes, yes. But remember, many of the AKC weekend trials held by GSP breed clubs are already dual sanctioned, so a placement (1st - 3rd) in a broke dog stake in one of those trials also counts as an NGSPA placement. In other words, you could run in nothing but weekend trials, finish the dog as an FC/AFC, take a placement in one of those dual sanctioned weekend trials during the year with your dog, and be qualified for the NGSPA National Shooting Dog Stakes. All of those events that you ran in to qualify would be "AKC Events."

Now the NGSPA wants the dual sanctioned trials so the hour dogs that win will also be on record with the AKC and thus qualifying them for the GSPCA nats?

This is not an "NGSPA want." The NGSPA is perfectly happy with its operations and events and there are lots of people on the Board and in the organization watching this effort with some skepticism, to make sure it does not compromise the quality of the dogs and the events the NGSPA produces. That would include me. I have no interest in seeing the hour championships reduced in quality to "yellow brick road" trials. GSP Field trialers have for years wanted dogs with hour NGSPA wins to be able to run in the GSPCA Nationals, just as dogs with AKC wins in the half hour dual sanctioned trials, or with AKC FC/AFC's have been able to run in the NGSPA Nationals. The people who are working on this are trying to do what the GSP field trialers have wanted for a long time. The NGSPA "wants" to look out for the breed and for field trialing.

An individual that runs only AKC events will never be allowed to run at the NGSPA Nats unless as previously stated they are qualified?

The post remmy made was in response to a question about qualifications for dogs, not qualifications for individuals. I believe there is a post I made in that prior thread about qualifications for individuals, which are pretty easy to satisfy.

[Wagonmaster]

Where I was coming from with my question was this: If another breed organization can figure it out and be successful, the NGSPA can figure it out and be successful. Sheesh, it isn't like it's Israeli-Palestinian Peace or something.

I gotta do some work here, but I agree with you Greg, it shouldn't be that hard. The GSPCA Board has rejected cooperation with the NGSPA for years, although the field trialers work in and run with both organizations and have wanted it. However, the issue that some of these comments is driving at is not an easy one. The quality of the judging and of the trials drives the quality of the dogs that are bred. The hour dog is a very high quality dog, at least in my view it is. The Shooting Dog is a different dog than the Gun Dog. Some people, not understanding what is driving this, are wondering if that is the direction this is going in, and it most emphatically is not.

[lvrgsp]

So if I can go to a weekend dual sanctioned trial and all I need is a placement and not a win why the need for the NGSPA hour CH need to be dual sanctioned? Woukld it be so I dont have to try and run my dog on those weekend courses and get a placement?....

[Greg Jennings]

Maybe I'm being overly simple about this, but it sure seems to me that if you put high-quality judges in the saddle with a vision of what a high-quality bird dog is supposed to be, you're going to have a good outcome.

Now, there is a lot of disagreement outside of field trialing as to what a high-quality bird dog is, but, hey, that's another debate for another day...and one a lot more like Middle East Peace.

Greg J.

[lvrgsp]

This is my point. All this is, is a back door way of trying to get dogs that win championships qualified for Eureka (which may or may not qualify the dog). The GSPCA has through there action, basically said “NGSPA WE DON’T WANT YOU”! And now the NGSPA is saying “we are going to come in from the back door”. I don’t care if this stays optional, but I look at the members of the current board and see this as becoming mandatory. I can guaranty that there are successful championships that run now that will run no more.

Booya....Thats all I wanted someone to say, just come out and say it, why get all typey and lyrical about it...
Yes I was playing dumb (easy for me to do). It's a better chance to get some of those hour dogs to get a placement or CH in a NGSPA CH rather than try and hack em around a tight half hour course, and I'm not knockin it, I'm just sayin..
Call it like it is. Dual Sanction it makes no difference to me.

[BigShooter]

It's a better chance to get some of those hour dogs to get a placement or CH in a NGSPA CH rather than try and hack em around a tight half hour course, and I'm not knockin it, I'm just sayin..

Come on now, we all know the western dogs can get around those eastern & midwest AKC courses just fine and likewise the eastern dogs can handle those western hour courses slicker than snot on a doorknob. This won't change anything.

[Greg Jennings]

Greg Brits and GSPs are two different worlds as specially when you look at the division between show GSPs and field GSPs, it’s as dfferent as the show pointers and field pointers.

I didn't say that it was the same. I'm saying that GSP folks are as smart as Britt folks and if the will is there to make it work, they can. Now, if they don't want to make it work, it won't.

I'll butt out now other than keeping this on course (and I can tell already that I'm going to have to).

I'm having a hard enough time training for and getting my little gun dog to weekend trials to worry about NGSPA/GSPCA reciprocity. Gotta put the kids first and they're both into another sport (lacrosse).

Greg J.

[lvrgsp]

It's a better chance to get some of those hour dogs to get a placement or CH in a NGSPA CH rather than try and hack em around a tight half hour course, and I'm not knockin it, I'm just sayin..

Come on now, we all know the western dogs can get around those eastern & midwest AKC courses just fine and likewise the eastern dogs can handle those western hour courses slicker than snot on a doorknob. This won't change anything.

Right on......

[Wagonmaster]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I have one that is a finished AKC FC, has won on tight courses in Minnesota, got a Reg. 3 win on the racetrack on the Chesapeake, and a bunch of hour wins out west where everything is big. Has won on planted birds and on wild prairie chickens. Heck, even a hack like me has been able to put amateur placements on him, hour and half hour both, although he cut my throat once at 58 and a half in the breaklands in WY, and another time at 59 and a half, but that's another story. He can be a blackhearted son of a gun. He has wins from Maryland to Arizona and everywhere in between. On top of that I hunt him off foot just fine. Joe has the same. So do alot of other people who run NGSPA, and I am privileged every time I ride with them.

If a dog is good they're just good.

[BigShooter]

This will have no impact on your dog, obviously. He is special and there are aren't too many around right now like him. Dogs winning hour stakes are deserving of recognition.

[dan v]

If a dog is good they're just good.

No matter the venue they are campaigned in.

[Wagonmaster]

My point.

If a dog has a nose and a desire to find birds, it will always be a threat no matter what kind of cover you put it in.

[Neil]

Many of the weekend Brittany and nearly all of the hour championships are AKC/FDSB sanctioned, plus most of them are AFTCA.

They are judged to the more stringent of the rules where there is conflict, and there are few areas of true conflict. I have judged All-Breed FDSB trials, AKC weekend and Championships, and dual sanctioned, and I got to tell you I judge the dogs all the same. The having to point a bird in an AKC Derby is problematic sometimes, but the rest of it, you just look for the best dog.

I could go through the rule books, but the differences are all minor, like the drawing, dropping down or moving up incomplete braces, tracking collars, etc. Nothing that seems to effect the running of the dogs, or at least not something I can't ignore.

I really would like to know what you guys think we are doing wrong, it seems to be working for us.

Now we only have ONE National Champion in All-Age and Shooting Dog, not three like the GSP. But I am OK with that.

Neil

[lvrgsp]

Neil,
Do you have to qualify every year or are there any qualified for life for the Britts?

[lvrgsp]

Go run the dual sanctioned AKC trials, it's already been said there available right? Or am I missing something? Heck all ya need is a PLACEMENT, you don't even have to WIN the darn stake. Or am I wrong on that as well?.....Watch em Joe next thing you know they'll be wanting to come in through the side door man..

I see the Reg 8 is dual sanctioned but not the Hun. Are there a chosen few for a trial basis or what gives here, there in the same place you could have a double dual there?

OK so as of right now we have 2 NGSPA dual sanctioned trials, PLEASE correct me if I am wrong here....
one in ARIZONA, and one in WYOMING? Would that be correct?

[Wagonmaster]

why on earth would you want to bring the championships down to the AKC standards makes no sense to me.

That's the thing Joe. The trials are not coming down to AKC standards. Nothing is going to change about the NGSPA hour championships except that you can now get AKC points for a win. The same people will run them, the same judges will judge them, and the same handlers will handle.

Yes, I share the same distaste for the Committee politics and the protest stuff that goes on at some AKC trials, and definitely for the yellow brick road approach. But none of that is dictated by the AKC Rules, it is a culture that has grown up in some clubs. Those clubs are not part of this, and not likely they will ever be able to run an hour championship to NGSPA standards.

The Hun is dual sanctioned, I have the premium, and I have been told so is the Prairie Chicken.

[BigShooter]

I don't know if any of our three 16 mo.old pups are going to pan out or not. The only thing I know at this early date is the pro was having a tough time getting our best AA prospect around the local midwest courses and he wondered aloud if the dog would do better out west. So now I'm wondering out loud if it wouldn't be worth considering running him or his brother as a derby in a dual sanctioned trial. Hmmm ..

[ezzy333]

why on earth would you want to bring the championships down to the AKC standards makes no sense to me.

That's the thing Joe. The trials are not coming down to AKC standards. Nothing is going to change about the NGSPA hour championships except that you can now get AKC points for a win. The same people will run them, the same judges will judge them, and the same handlers will handle.

Yes, I share the same distaste for the Committee politics and the protest stuff that goes on at some AKC trials, and definitely for the yellow brick road approach. But none of that is dictated by the AKC Rules, it is a culture that has grown up in some clubs. Those clubs are not part of this, and not likely they will ever be able to run an hour championship to NGSPA standards.

The Hun is dual sanctioned, I have the premium, and I have been told so is the Prairie Chicken.

And I would think the same dogs would run them and the same dogs would win them. Or am I missing something?

Ezzy

[lvrgsp]

The Chicken is dual sanctioned, the Sharptail is not.......

FWIW.

[Elroy's Bandit]

The Region8 & The Hungarian Partridge Championship are dual Sanctioned this year, as was the Chukar
The Sharptail &Chicken ARE NOT
Bill L.

[Anaconda Pintler]

The Region8 & The Hungarian Partridge Championship are dual Sanctioned this year, as was the Chukar
The Sharptail &Chicken ARE NOT
Bill L.

The three trials that are dual are run on dropped birds are they not? The other two are run on wild native birds is that correct?

[lvrgsp]

Bill I'm looking at the premium for the Chicken it says dual sanctioned....Did they change that?

[BigShooter]

John,

Thanks for the info. The messenger always get shot. Seems to me there are 16 other NGSPA trustees & all of their contact info is on the NGSPA web site: http://www.ngspa.org/trustees.html

[Neil]

Neil,
Do you have to qualify every year or are there any qualified for life for the Britts?

Yes, the Britts must qualify each year for the NC, it takes a couple of 30 minutes wins with 13+ dogs, and a placement in an hour stake with 20+ (it is more complicated than that, but it does take wins each year).

Our problem is too many dogs qualified and running at the NC.

Still not sure what we are doing wrong, but would like to learn so we could improve,

Neil

[Elroy's Bandit]

Bill I'm looking at the premium for the Chicken it says dual sanctioned....Did they change that?

The advertisement that came out in both the NGSPA & the online chronicle does not list the Chicken as "Dual Sanctioned" event.
Bill L.

[DGFavor]

Doug I basically agree with you, but you need to get out more.

Sounds good to me Joe! Where would you recommend I get out to??