What pointing breed has the most natural retrieve?

[Birddogz]

There are no right or wrong answers, I'm just curious as to what people think.

I would say it has been my experience that DDs/GWPs and French Brittanys have had the most natural retrieve. I FF all my dogs anyway, just curious as to what others have encountered.

[birddog1968]

The pointing labrador

[Birddogz]

I was going to preface my statement with "Besides pointing labs". Only took one poster to find my mistake! Can't get anything past you.

[Meller]

Don't know about anyone breed being better than another ; but I do know it would be hard to beat my GSP's on a natural retrieve and I'll let you throw in the Lab's on that one.

[muckdog]

Wirehairs....

[Ruffshooter]

GSP:

[Mountaineer]

Shorthairs with Britts so close as to not matter.

If they only looked and had the personality of any of the three English Setters...ah well.

[Birddogz]

Britts have no personality? I think they have the most of any dog I have ever been around. Sometimes they have a little too much.

[Mountaineer]

I never said a Britt had no personality...they are a spaniel.

I said they did not have the personality of an English Setter.
Some would disagree.

[tfbirddog2]

Well, you have to say GSP for me,a I know more britts that dont retrieve than anything.

[birddog1968]

I was going to preface my statement with "Besides pointing labs". Only took one poster to find my mistake! Can't get anything past you.

I couldn't resist, even tho a lab is a retrieving breed

[zzweims]

The Weimaraner! The stuff before the retrieve is a different story

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

[Hattrick]

Don`t mean to hijack this thread, I no this does not pertain to natural drive, but i hear Britts don`t retrieve well couldn't`t FF fix that?

[ACooper]

There are a few prof trainers that will tell you that in their opinion the modern GSP has the LEAST natural retrieve.

IMO it is how much "prey drive" and how the pups are brought along, regardless of breed.

[snips]

Eng Pointer, GSP.

[Birddogz]

English Pointer? That one surprised me. Most I have known had to be forced fetched, or they wouldn't retrieve at all. Nothing wrong with FFing, just saying. I'm surprise that a guy that owns a wirehair would say that. I own a DD and have been around many, and I can't think of one that didn't retrieve. Not one. If this is your experience, I certainly don't doubt you, just is surprising to me.

Also, I have never been around a French Brittany that would not fetch. I have seen some American Britts that would drop the pheasant at the halfway point. (I don't own a Frenchie, but the 5 I have hunted over were dynamite retrievers/dead bird hunters)

[ckirsch]

I suspect pointers get a bad rap on retrieving simply because it is often not a priority for their owners, and many don't nurture their dogs' natural retrieving instinct with any significant training. I picked up my first one a few years ago and have been very pleasantly surprised with his retrieving ability, both natural and trained. He's also the most enthusiastic water dog I've owned. Just turned two, and handles double-marked retrieves, is steady in the blind, responds to hand signals, and is getting better at cold blinds every day. We won't be taking home hardware from retriever trials any time soon, but he's become a very functional retriever in the field. I tried a pointer in hopes of a dog that developed quickly and had loads of point, and I have not been disappointed in those regards, so the solid retrieving is a nice bonus. I'll admit that naming them among the most natural retrievers of the pointing breeds might raise some eyebrows, but I don't think pointers as far behind as most people seem to believe.

My guess is that the retrieving instinct varies as much from bloodline to bloodline, and even among individual dogs, as it does among different breeds. Look through the NAVHDA scores and you'll find SM, LM, PP, GSP, Weim, GWP, Griffs, and five or six other breeds that routinely have representatives who post impressive UT test scores, and that test requires some fairly advanced retrieving ability.

[jimbo&rooster]

My GSP has more natural retrieve than my lab ever thought about having.
Jim

[Birddogz]

CKirsch,
Do you hunt him on waterfowl? If so, how does he do in November/December? Sounds like a very good dog.

[snips]

The EP's I owned were obsessive retrievers. I have trained many that were also nice natural retrievers. I agree that it is probably not a priority of many pointer owners to be good retrievers....

[Birddogz]

I hear this said a lot. Why on Earth would you not want your dog to retrieve? That is 1/3 of their job. 1/3 find birds, 1/3 point and hold point, 1/3 find dead bird and bring it to my hand. If your dog doesn't retrieve well, he gets a 66%. That is an F in any school. Why go through all the trouble of hunting if the game is lost in the final step? Just something that I have always thought was strange.

[Neil]

GSP

But as already stated, since most FF to compete at the highest levels, it is moot.

Hall of Famer Buddy Smith says, "They will all retrieve, some just won't come".

Neil

[Greg Jennings]

I hear this said a lot. Why on Earth would you not want your dog to retrieve? That is 1/3 of their job. 1/3 find birds, 1/3 point and hold point, 1/3 find dead bird and bring it to my hand. If your dog doesn't retrieve well, he gets a 66%. That is an F in any school. Why go through all the trouble of hunting if the game is lost in the final step? Just something that I have always thought was strange.

I like a dog that retrieves, but here goes some alternate reasoning...

Humans can't productively search for birds. Humans can't point birds (can't smell well enough to know the bird is *right there*). But, humans can walk to a shot quail, woodcock or grouse that the dog has pointed or otherwise found, but just doesn't retrieve in a snappy manner.

[Dave Quindt]

But as already stated, since most FF to compete at the highest levels, it is moot.

Hall of Famer Buddy Smith says, "They will all retrieve, some just won't come".

FF doesn't teach a dog to mark, or to track, or to have natural memory to handle multiple marks. All of those things are bred into the dog; they can be refined via training but can't be completely taught.

We've dumbed retrieving down to mean nothing more than pick-up and carry, and we test this "at the highest levels" by shooting a pen-raised quail over a dog's point in the middle of a cut pasture, with the handler screaming WHOA at the dog, and then pleading with the dog to bring it back to him.

As Hall of Famer Rex Carr said "A dog only has so many corrections in him to give you. Use them up and he's done".

I don't want to "use them up" FF'ing a dog that has no natural desire to retrieve.

And until you've got them broke out, you don't know how much natural retrieve you've really got. Allowing unbroke dogs to chase at the flush or the shot shows little about natural retrieve. Take the thrill of the chase away and then you really see what you've got to work with.

JMO,
Dave

[Mountaineer]

I hear this said a lot. Why on Earth would you not want your dog to retrieve? That is 1/3 of their job. 1/3 find birds, 1/3 point and hold point, 1/3 find dead bird and bring it to my hand. If your dog doesn't retrieve well, he gets a 66%. That is an F in any school. Why go through all the trouble of hunting if the game is lost in the final step? Just something that I have always thought was strange.

As long as the dog hunts dead well....I can reach down and pick up a bird.
My last two setters were obtained as older dogs...backing away from them for a lack of retrieve would have found me missing out on dogs that mean the world to me. FFing a 9 year-old seems silly.
That world is not perfect...we most often deal any hand given.

More game is lost thru bad shooting and wounding than by a dog not retrieving.
Too many hunters assume they miss.
Too few shoot shoot well.

Retrieving is a nicety, required by some and admired by others.
Humans are always on the lookout for ways to seperate.
As such, I often grade humans pretty low.
Since I have zero interest in field trials...I never grade my dogs.
And I hope that they do not grade me.

[Birddogz]

But, humans can walk to a shot quail, woodcock or grouse that the dog has pointed or otherwise found, but just doesn't retrieve in a snappy manner.

You would be surprised at how many woodcock , grouse and pheasant are lost because a dog would not retrieve and the human tried.

Couldn't agree more. I can't imagine how many woodcock, ruffed grouse, quail, pheasant, ducks, geese etc. I would lose without a dog. It is especially hard to mark birds if many are getting up and you are swinging on various targets.

[ckirsch]

CKirsch,
Do you hunt him on waterfowl? If so, how does he do in November/December? Sounds like a very good dog.

We jumped some dams last December while doing some late season pheasant hunting, and I was very happy with my pointer's performance. It was just above zero, and the birds (including a goose) went down in the open water of a spring-fed dam. The dog waited, as asked, below the dam while we crept up on it, and after the birds were down, I called him up, lined him up, and sent him on the retrieve. He entered the water without hesitation, and brought the birds to hand. The goose was a big one, and the dog had to negotiate a steep bank to get him to me. We were close to the truck or I would not have asked him to enter the water; he was iced up by the time we got back to it, so he sat on the floor of the cab on the way home. I'm not a particularly passionate waterfowler, and to be honest would probably choose a different breed if I was, but for the limited duck and goose hunting that I do, my dog will get it done. Upland hunting is my first priority, so the pointer is working out great for me.

The same dog, in his first two hunting seasons, located and retrieved a hundred or so downed sharptails and pheasants from all types of nasty cover, so his retrieving goes at least a little beyond the scenario of retrieving tame quail shot in mowed hay fields. Again, my pointer is not going to do anything to drop the jaw of a retriever trialist, but he is a very serviceable hunting retriever. I'll add that as a young pup, he was launching into the water after dummies the day I picked him up from the airport, so he clearly had plenty of natural retrieve in him. His breeder (Ross Callaway) does a great job of exposing his pups to both water and retrieving, and while I'm sure that gave my dog a boost, the instinct was clearly there to begin with.

Our progress on the water blind has been a little slower than I had hoped, but we are headed in the right direction, and from what I understand water blinds are often challenging even for the breeds touted as retrieving specialists. I've no complaints with my pointer's retrieving.

[Shadow]

Well, you have to say GSP for me,a I know more britts that dont retrieve than anything.

I don't know what kind of Britts, their lines, or where you've been-

but that's halarious- course just about anyone could screw up a natural retriever pup

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

This thread was(supposed to be) about which pointing breed has the most natural retrieve.

Just what would one define a "natural" retrieve to consist of? I'm not entirely sure about how to define a "natural" retrieve.

To my mind, wrapping its gums around a bird is an extension of the dog's desire to find and kill game. The desire to retrieve, in my opinion, directly related to the amount of prey drive(desire, whatever you call it) that the dog posesses.

I don't think that desire is breed specific, but if any breed, as a breed, has an abundance of desire, it has to be pointers, followed closely, I think by GSP's(or their analogs, GWP's DD, DK's, et cetera). There are plenty of "driven" dogs in any of the breeds. I reiterate...I do not think the desire to retrieve is breed specific.


I personally do not give a rat's patoot if one of my dogs actually brings the bird all the way back and delivers it to hand. Unless the bird is on the other side of a ditch filled with water , I don't much care if the dog retrieves it at all. As long as the dog hunts dead until the bird is located, I don't care if the dog picks it up or just points it again.

If the dog buzzes by, spits the bird out in my line of travel and then takes off to continue hunting, I am absolutely fine with that. He would rather be hunting. I agree. I would rather be hunting than toting around a dead bird too. That is my kind of dog.

When I am too lazy or too fat to lean over and pick up a dead bird...it is time to quit killing them.

RayG

[Birddogz]

I like the dog to sit by my side and deliver the bird to hand. It isn't imperative, but it sure is cool.

[birddog1968]

I hear ya Ray

Only thing comes to mind is , mine are soft mouthed usually and a live rooster dropped in my line of travel will quickly make another get away,
and Lord knows I'm not as mobile as I once was

[birddogger]

I always felt the same way when I did nothing but hunt. But now I do a little NSTRA trialing and some testing. Your dog has to retrieve to hand to succeed in these venues. Additionally, when you have a dog retrieving to hand you tend to want them all to do it, or at least I do.

Charlie

[ckirsch]

RayG makes my point about many EP guys not being too concerned with retrieve. For what it's worth, I don't consider myself fat or lazy, but I do appreciate a dog with a polished retrieve. I suppose dogless hunters could use Ray's logic and state that when they are too lazy or fat to walk up birds on their own, it's time to stop shooting them. It's all about watching our dogs perform, and we obviously have a variety of expectations of our dogs; many of us enjoy a well-executed retrieve, albeit probably not as much as a hard-slammed, high-headed, and twelve o'clock tail point. I suppose it would be a little boring if we all liked exactly the same thing.

[RayGubernat]

Birdog1968 -

I would not expect a dog of mine would spit out a bird unless it was dead mostly because he would undoubtedly know that he would have to go catch it again! I hate to lose birds tht I have shot...always have, always will.

Charlie - You can train a dog to retrive to hand. That has nothing to do with the natural tendency of the dog to want to retrieve in the first place...except that it can make the training easier I think.

What is a "natural" retrieving pointing dog anyway?? i have the feeling that this term is about as well defined as a "started" or "green broke" dog.

What is your definition of a "natural" retriever??

How do you identify whether or not your new dog is a "natural" retriever, or not?

I am asking this seriously... not pulling anyone's chain. I honestly do believe that finding dead birds is a huge part of the gun dog's job and a dog that will want to not only find the dead or wounded bird, but return it to you is obviously preferable. So how do you define it and more importantly, how do you tell if you got one that is??

RayG

[birddog1968]

I know what ya mean Ray, Remember Smoke, my lil black and white pointer, he brought em right back to hand.
My lil liver girl goes to her falls with purpose, but she then just wanted to hunt on....I had her forced as I am going
to be running Nstra with her. My white dog also went to his falls with purpose but would drop them 5-10 yards out, he
was forced as well. I guess its my experience with labs that led me to force mine, also guiding, it presents a more finished
product.

I see where Natural retrieve could be alot of different things to different folks.....Ive not had a pointer yet that didn't go to their falls with purpose and most have had the inclination to at least bring them part way back. Liver girl got in a scrap with a rooster out west , she now makes sure they are
fully subdued

[Birddogz]

Totally agree. Bringing birds to hand is very important to me.


I think a natural retriever is one that retrieves without being FFed. A dog that enjoys retrieving from puppyhood.

[Mountaineer]

..... When you drop a bird out in a slew and have wade up to your waist water that is just above freezing to get a bird that your dog only brought part of the way back some might think a little differantly on how important the retrieve is.

Reads to me that the gamebird & area one hunts can matter most.
I suppose one could drop a ruffed grouse or woodcock in water for which one would need a snorkel...but it would be pretty rare.
I did lose one pheasant in an Iowa pond once...course the pond was frozen and I would not let the dog on the ice.

A natural retriever does not need FFed.
Irregardless of breed genes.

Further thinking says that I have seen more wild pheasants lost to a dog that was steady to shot and then sent to retrieve than one that is under the bird when it falls. Some prefer steady to bang tho.

Hunters do not like to lose birds...seems silly and a tad insulting to think otherwise.
So, I believe, that most hunters if faced with increasing or untenable bird loss will take measures to reduce.
May involve the dog or scattergun practice or the picking of shots taken.
If degree of training in a pooch is held as some banner to the hunter himself or his interest in game conservation then I think that a shame.

[birddogger]

What is a "natural" retrieving pointing dog anyway?? i have the feeling that this term is about as well defined as a "started" or "green broke" dog.

Ray, a natural retriever to me is a dog that goes straight to a downed bird, brings it straight back and delivers it to hand, all without being trained to do so. If I have a dog that does not do that, I will FF, now that I have done it and see the polish.

Charlie

[ckirsch]

If degree of training in a pooch is held as some banner to the hunter himself or his interest in game conservation then I think that a shame.

Not sure what is implied with that statement. It would seem to be quite a stretch to assume that a simple appreciation for a bird dog that has received and retained some degree of training somehow renders one guilty of "holding a banner to himself". Most of us are in this because we love watching our dogs work. I've shot plenty of birds over the years, and could easily get by without ever taking another one. At this point, it's the canine component that keeps me in the field. I doubt that many of us would hunt them with any frequency were we not able to share the experience with a dog. Unfortunately, it appears that if we happen to prefer reliable retrieving to be included in our dogs' package of skills, some would consider us to be lazy, egotistical slobs. Does that apply solely to retrieving, or does the enjoyment of watching a dog that has style, is steady, backs, etc. also constitute arrogance?

I would agree with Charlie's description of a "natural" retriever.

[Mountaineer]

If degree of training in a pooch is held as some banner to the hunter himself or his interest in game conservation then I think that a shame.

Not sure what is implied with that statement. It would seem to be quite a stretch to assume that a simple appreciation for a bird dog that has received and retained some degree of training somehow renders one guilty of "holding a banner to himself".

It means that some find that if their dog retrieves then it somehow trumps the ones that do not have retrieve at any forefront....subtle, at times, but it is there.
And that training stems from...naturally, the trainer.
However, no dog, in my mind, is ever trumped(some, as with ourselves, may have an off day)....as before, I have no interest in FTs or grading scales on any level.
I like watching all dogs and have for 45 years or so.

I believe I earlier said "retrieve is a nicety, required by some and admired by others."
I fall into the "admirer" catagory.
Nothing in that statement implies the three negative adjectives to which you just sadly alluded.
Ego can fit some few dog owners but it will most often be across the board and not limited to Fetch & Deliver.
Perhaps any sensitivity you feel from an imagined slight might be compared to hearing comments regarding all the lost game from a dog that does not deliver to hand. :roll:

Train as you will for your conditions and your preferences but understand that the operative word is "your."

The term "Best" should fall to a discussion of Doughnuts and not Dogs, IMHO.

[RayGubernat]

It seems to me that Charlie's description of a natural retriever is a pretty high standard. But that is OK. High standards and high expectations tend to make for high levels of performance.

If I had a dog that would do that, I would be pretty happy with that also. The difference, for me, is that if it didn't quite meet that standard, I wouldn't force fetch to get there.

To me the dog's job starts when the bird is found and pointed but does not end until the dead or wounded bird is recovered. I personally am a lot less concerned with the fine points of the retrieve, but that is just me. Whatever floats your boat, as they say. As long as the shot bird is brought to bag, that fulfills MY minimum standard.

Each hunter goes afield with their own set of expectations and their own set of requirements for both themselves and their dog. That is how it should be.

RayG

[ckirsch]

No sensitivity issues here, Mountaineer, just amusement.

Carry on.

[Birddogz]

..... When you drop a bird out in a slew and have wade up to your waist water that is just above freezing to get a bird that your dog only brought part of the way back some might think a little differantly on how important the retrieve is.

Reads to me that the gamebird & area one hunts can matter most.
I suppose one could drop a ruffed grouse or woodcock in water for which one would need a snorkel...but it would be pretty rare.
I did lose one pheasant in an Iowa pond once...course the pond was frozen and I would not let the dog on the ice.

A natural retriever does not need FFed.
Irregardless of breed genes.

Further thinking says that I have seen more wild pheasants lost to a dog that was steady to shot and then sent to retrieve than one that is under the bird when it falls. Some prefer steady to bang tho.

Hunters do not like to lose birds...seems silly and a tad insulting to think otherwise.
So, I believe, that most hunters if faced with increasing or untenable bird loss will take measures to reduce.
May involve the dog or scattergun practice or the picking of shots taken.
If degree of training in a pooch is held as some banner to the hunter himself or his interest in game conservation then I think that a shame.

The part about steady wing to shot costing you some roosters is a valid point. I like my dogs steady W to S, but must admit that a cagey old meat dog that releases at the shot is a more efficient retriever of late season roosters. If you can release your dog by voice command then the difference is negligible, but if you have to tap the dog on the head, it is a serious handicap.

Also, a trait that I think many bird hunters don't recognize as very important, especially when hunting wild pheasants, is the ability to track a wounded bird. I'm talking about putting the nose down and trailing it until it is found. This can take 4-5 years for a dog to completely master, but it is invaluable when trying to recover a pheasant with a broken wing that has been on the go for 2-3 minutes before the dog arrives to the scent. I have hunted over some labs that were phenomenal at this. I have also hunted over some DDs that were magnificent trailers. My Britts learned it over the years, but never quite reached the mastery that the aforementioned obtained. I remember hunting in SD in a shelterbelt when a rooster came out near our blockers. A guy crippled a bird, and it hit in the stuble and ran back into the shelterbelt with his track shoes on. When we finished hunting the shelterbelt we took a DD to the place where the bird had fallen. She took off into the shelterbelt and was gone for 5 minutes. During that time we caught glimpses of her running through the cover. She trailed the rooster 300 yards, then the rooster ran out into the stubble and tried to fly. The dog hit the rooster like a rocket and brought it back on a canter. That was the day I promised myself I would own a DD.

[Mountaineer]

The "wading up to your waist" got my notice...hip boots might be a little too little. :roll:

Appalachians and the U.P.

My definiton of natural...yours is yours.
I care not that the twain do not meet.

[tommyboy72]

I'm sort of fond of the fact that my 2 older dogs will , how was it stated, "fully subdue" a rooster before bringing it back. They won't break a single bone in a bird's body but they will suffocate them till they stop moving and both of them have been spurred by birds out here.

I am a kneeler, meaning that when my dogs retrieve I have a tendency to kneel down on one knee and accept the bird from the dog while loving on them. This is especially necessary with my female pointer who loves to retrieve but wants to drop the bird at your feet and when you bend to pick it up she tries to lay on the bird and roll over on her back to expose her belly in order to keep you from taking the bird. In order to curb this behavior I just kneel down and take the bird out of her mouth when she gets to me. It's actually kind of weird but she knows she will be in trouble if she balks at a retrieve or tries to keep the bird.

[Georgia Boy]

If all I hunted was chickens at the local game farm I might have a use for a dog that would not retrieve, otherwise they would be just about useless for me. I also FF every dog I have regardless of their instinct, however if I had a dog that showed no inclination to retrieve I would not waste my time with them and believe me I have seen plenty of those. I like happy retrievers and then with FF they come to understand that they are retrieving because I told them. That is why I can take my dog to a pond, with no mark, or even game for that matter and tell him Fetch and he will search for 2 hours. That, is desire to retrieve and what I use FF for, not for the birds they see hit the ground or water.

[RayGubernat]

If all I hunted was chickens at the local game farm I might have a use for a dog that would not retrieve, otherwise they would be just about useless for me.

You are right there. You do not need a dog at all to hunt chickens. The only chickens that are any fun at all to hunt are bantys and it is most sporting when done with a a handgun or a high powered air rifle.

I also FF every dog I have regardless of their instinct, however if I had a dog that showed no inclination to retrieve I would not waste my time with them and believe me I have seen plenty of those. I like happy retrievers and then with FF they come to understand that they are retrieving because I told them.

Some of us teach their dogs to hunt dead. I do. Works fine for me. If the dog finds the bird and reaches in and grabs it...great. if it comes back to me with it, that is great also. If the dog re-points it, and I see it lying there dead... I can handle it from there.

That is why I can take my dog to a pond, with no mark, or even game for that matter and tell him Fetch and he will search for 2 hours. That, is desire to retrieve and what I use FF for, not for the birds they see hit the ground or water.

I cannot say I have ever had my dog hunt dead for two hours for nothing in particular. I don't know why anyone would want to, but each of us is different. I can say that I have had a dog hunt dead for a quail I knocked down, for over a half hour before the dog found it. like i said earlier, I hate losing birds i have hit...always have...always will.

I do try to avoid dropping birds in water though. It gets kinda cold after November and I wouldn't want to be responsible for giving one of my pointers a chill. They are rather delicate, you know. Besides, everyone knows pointers hate water.

RayG

[birddogger]

by RayGubernat » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:45 am

It seems to me that Charlie's description of a natural retriever is a pretty high standard. But that is OK. High standards and high expectations tend to make for high levels of performance.

I guess it is a pretty high stadard but not unreasonable. The reason I say this is because I have hunted with more than one dog that met this standard with no formal training. My hunting buddy has an EP that has always done this. If you had not seen him before, you would swear he was FFed. He will retrieve from water, he will jump fences like a deer to retrieve a downed bird and he does it with style. He is a natural retriever, although I will back off on my original definition a little. A dog that goes to the downed bird, brings it back, drops it and speeds away is still a natural retriever IMO.

Charlie

[Georgia Boy]

Ray Gubernat wrote:
I cannot say I have ever had my dog hunt dead for two hours for nothing in particular. I don't know why anyone would want to, but each of us is different.

Ray, That was done in the training process for testing last fall but an independent search is necessary to me for a few reasons. 1) I want to know what kind of bottom, drive and desire my dogs have in the field, woods and water. I have been looking for a stud dog, the total package and it took me three before I found one that was strong across the board. 2)My dogs also hunt waterfowl on the coast, in the marshes, flooded timber and on rivers where tides, current and cover make things much more difficult. You don't know where every bird goes down, often several hundred yards before any scent is picked up.

[Georgia Boy]

HZP-VGP, I didnt make him stay out there. I ate my lunch, smoked a cigar, helped some other handlers then finally got tired of waiting as other dogs needed use the water, so I threw out a dead duck for him to make a retrieve.