Another Snake Bite!

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Another Snake Bite!

Post by SubMariner » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:15 pm

Like zzweims I'm posting about a venomous snake bite. :(

You may remember last August our GSP Zio was bitten by what was determined to be a pygmy rattler. Well, it's happened again! Yesterday morning a dusky pygmy rattler got him in the nose. He was at Florida Veterinary Services overnight, got a vial of antivenin, antibiotics, etc., and is now back with us as of about 10am today. His face is still quite swollen & he's on pain meds & antihistamines, though. Following up with his own vet on Sat.

Apparently it's all because we were tempting The Powers That Be by arranging another snake avoidance training session. It seems that no sooner than we do that, than he gets hit. Frankly, we didn't expect it because he has been behaving according to his training & avoiding all the other snakes in the area (including black racers and 5 1/2' eastern diamondback that I reported on in an earlier thread). So why he got that close to a pygmy this time is a mystery to us. Perhaps it's because they are good at camouflaging themselves in pine needles and he simply didn't sense it? I dunno.

So be careful out there!
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by txgsp » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:31 pm

Dang, sorry to hear about that. Hopefully he recovers quickly and glad yall caught it soon.

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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by zzweims » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:14 pm

Man, you have my deepest empathy. Even with quick vet care, those first 24-48 hours are agonizing nail biters! Were you able to kill the snake? I shot the canebrake that got my girls and put every other dog in my kennel through an impromptu snake breaking clinic. A live snake is better than a dead one, but I think the dogs got the message. I suggest you don't wait for a formal snake breaking clinic. Rather, go out and trap or shoot a pygmy, then light your dog up like a Christmas tree if he goes near it.

I'm praying for a speedy recovery for your boy. If he's made it this far, odds are he will recover completely. I'm on day 11 with my girls, and other than Cherry Pie's eye, you would never know that either of them was bit!

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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by phermes1 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:26 pm

I hope he recovers quickly!!

And wherever it is that you've been walking him - stop going there.
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by kninebirddog » Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:39 pm

Wow sorry to hear that...

Question on the snake avoidance how did he go through the process did they make sure the buzzing the snake made also related to the bite/Shock of a life time

was it done with a rattlesnake where everything the entire session was entirely related to the rattlesnake

Over the years I have come across a few dogs where didn't matter what we did the dog was determined to basically destroy the snake that they thought bit them 2 shorthairs and a pointer...we told the people also there was nothing we could do to make the dog want to avoid the snake as everything we did only made the dog more aggressive to the snake.

we have had a few dogs which took a few times before they finally figured out that when they showed any curiosity in the snake it would bite the you know what out of them, and to avoid it completely

watch out for secondary infection keep the wound clean and those antibiotics going
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by snips » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:37 pm

A Fritz son :roll: Glad he is on the mend!!!
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by SubMariner » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:56 am

kninebirddog wrote:Wow sorry to hear that...

Question on the snake avoidance how did he go through the process did they make sure the buzzing the snake made also related to the bite/Shock of a life time

was it done with a rattlesnake where everything the entire session was entirely related to the rattlesnake

Over the years I have come across a few dogs where didn't matter what we did the dog was determined to basically destroy the snake that they thought bit them 2 shorthairs and a pointer...we told the people also there was nothing we could do to make the dog want to avoid the snake as everything we did only made the dog more aggressive to the snake.

we have had a few dogs which took a few times before they finally figured out that when they showed any curiosity in the snake it would bite the you know what out of them, and to avoid it completely

watch out for secondary infection keep the wound clean and those antibiotics going
Last year a couple of weeks after he was hit we put him through the entire snake avoidance training program with a very knowledgeable & reputable vet here in FL. In fact, this gentleman is well known in the state for his training, probably putting hundreds of dogs successfully through it. I can assure you that it is VERY thorough and systematic; the dog was exposed to sight/sound/smell of 3 types of rattlers, including the pygmy.

However, it seems that pygmies are good at camouflaging themselves and are small enough that our guy simply didn't know he was there. So while he was doing his usual hunting dog snooping around thing he got bit on the nose.

Regardless, when we talked with the snake avoidance trainer he assured us that this time we would start with the pygmy. Because he's been properly reacting to any larger snake (i.e.: totally avoiding them) I don't imagine we'll have to do much reinforcement on them, but it will be done anyways.

Pax,
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by SubMariner » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:01 am

zzweims wrote:Man, you have my deepest empathy. Even with quick vet care, those first 24-48 hours are agonizing nail biters! Were you able to kill the snake? I shot the canebrake that got my girls and put every other dog in my kennel through an impromptu snake breaking clinic. A live snake is better than a dead one, but I think the dogs got the message. I suggest you don't wait for a formal snake breaking clinic. Rather, go out and trap or shoot a pygmy, then light your dog up like a Christmas tree if he goes near it.

I'm praying for a speedy recovery for your boy. If he's made it this far, odds are he will recover completely. I'm on day 11 with my girls, and other than Cherry Pie's eye, you would never know that either of them was bit!

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Glad your girls are getting better... that's great news.

Zio will be going up to the snake avoidance guy on the 27th as that's the soonest we could all get together.

Re: shooting the rattler, we are in a subdivision in New Tampa; can't discharge a gun here. But next time I see one & I have my big quarterstaff I won't hesitate to use it. ;)
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:37 am

Just checking we have people who think using bullsnakes and dead snakes or they have the snake in a cage telling people it will work for avoidance training and it doesn't work on live rattlers smell different I have seen dogs that will not go near a live rattler but do not care about dead ones

we have had dogs from the bullsnake trainer come here and every single dog from them has gone right in on the scent of the rattler and the sound when the dog goes through how we do it :(

no matter what we do it Never can be 100 percent wind and scenting conditions will always have a factor

Take care and hope the scarring is minimal and the healing is quick
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by asc » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:51 pm

Sorry to hear that about your dog, hope he will be ok. Funny thing about tempting fate, mine had a green snake the other day and was bit on the neck. She just lost a bit of skin and hair. The same day Dr. Calderwood called to reschedule for the 27th.
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by SubMariner » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:50 pm

I'm happy to report that Zio had a good follow-up with his Vet yesterday after his "Close Encounter of the Worst Kind" with the dusky pygmy earlier this week. The swelling in his face & nose is almost gone, but he still has a bit of a "goiter" in his neck as the last of the edema drains down.

Thanks for all the good thoughts. And for those of you who are (unfortunately) going through the same ordeal with your dogs, here's to a speedy & complete recovery for all!

Edit: Just heard from the Vet & all the bloodwork on Zio came back ok. :)
Last edited by SubMariner on Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by zzweims » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:56 am

Excellent news! My dogs had the 'goiter' for 4-5 days, then it drooped down to their chests and legs. Both girls had 'cankles' for a couple of days, and from the side, they *almost* looked like show weims with a big useless pigeon chest :? :roll: Thank God it didn't stay that way :lol: :lol:

Your boy will be back to his old self in no time!

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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:43 am

INformation for the seminar please! I have a couple of dogs I need to get done.
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by ckirsch » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:57 am

Aline;

Does it appear that both your dogs will make full recoveries? What effects, if any, linger on? I recall a Dobe of my brother's that had incontinence problems after being bitten by a prairie rattler. Hoping that things are looking good for all of your dogs.

We just built a home in a semi-rural area that seems to have more than it's share of rattlesnakes. The construction guys killed three while they were excavating our basement last summer. I have my pointer vaccinated, and plan on having him snake-broken. A local business here in Rapid City (Reptile Gardens) has a staff member who breaks dogs using their rattlesnakes. I understand that he will charges $100 per session, and takes up to five dogs in a session, which sounds like a bargain to me. I'm trying to line up four friends to schedule an appointment with...

Best of luck with your dogs.

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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by SubMariner » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:00 pm

asc wrote:Sorry to hear that about your dog, hope he will be ok. Funny thing about tempting fate, mine had a green snake the other day and was bit on the neck. She just lost a bit of skin and hair. The same day Dr. Calderwood called to reschedule for the 27th.
Good grief! This is getting scarey! :twisted:
CherrystoneWeims wrote:INformation for the seminar please! I have a couple of dogs I need to get done.
For those who are asking, Dr. Calderwood is the vet here in FL that I mentioned in one of my previous posts. He is well known for his snake avoidance training. It's not a seminar; just a few of us within driving distance of Bud's place who are paying for a session to refresh our dogs' training.

If anyone is interested in contacting Dr. Calderwood directly, send me a PM and I will forward his particulars to you.

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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by zzweims » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:21 pm

ckirsch wrote:Aline;

Does it appear that both your dogs will make full recoveries? What effects, if any, linger on?
I'm only on day 15, so I can't say with 100% accuracy what lingering affects there will be, if any. But I can tell you that both girls are out chasing squirrels right now and having a blast :D Other than the expense, I couldn't be happier!

Is Dr. Calderwood the vet in Ocala? I've done his clinic before. It is excellent! Though I did have one dog determined to kill all snakes afterward. But that is a rare exception. With or without the vaccine, snake breaking is a MUST! I've been looking for snake handlers in my area so that we can host a clinic here. I've done it myself with non-poisonous snakes, but I think the scent and especially the sound of a rattler would offer the most benefit.

So glad that Rio is doing better. Do keep us updated.

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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:30 pm

Aline, how about holding a seminar with Dr. Calderwood at your place? I would bring at least 4 dogs!
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by Fish 4-5 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:36 am

Scary stuff, I'm wondering about the snake population in va. I have seen very few timberback rattle snakes and copperheads around in the foothills of the Blue ridge. After reading this stuff it kind of has me uneasy about hiking some of the trails up on skyline drive (Shanandoah Park) in the summer. :?

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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by zzweims » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:07 am

Since my snake bite experience, and now this one, I've had a ton of people throughout the southeast contact me about a snake breaking clinic. Dr. Calderwood is the only one I know of who does it, but he is too far away. Even if we all did make the trip, he'd be overwhelmed by the number of dogs. I can promise 10-15 and at least 20 other people with multiple dogs have contacted me. I am willing to offer my farm and facilities for the clinic, but I'm having a heck of a time finding a snake handler. Any suggestions?

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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by SubMariner » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:50 am

zzweims wrote:
Is Dr. Calderwood the vet in Ocala? I've done his clinic before. It is excellent! Though I did have one dog determined to kill all snakes afterward. But that is a rare exception. With or without the vaccine, snake breaking is a MUST! I've been looking for snake handlers in my area so that we can host a clinic here. I've done it myself with non-poisonous snakes, but I think the scent and especially the sound of a rattler would offer the most benefit.

So glad that Zio is doing better. Do keep us updated.

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Yup... Dr. Calderwood in Alachua (north of Ocala).

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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by SubMariner » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:39 am

We had Zio back at Snake Avoidance training Sunday morning. Dr. Calderwood remembered us from last year, kindly inquiring as to how Zio's health is post-strike. We were happy to report that other than the sections of fur that are still growing in from where he was shaved for sensors or IVs, he looks & seems just fine.

The very first snake out was a 1' pygmy. Zio didn't go within 5 feet of it. AAMOF he jumped away so quickly & forcefully that we though that Bud had zapped him with the collar. But no, he did it all on his own!

Meanwhile, he wouldn't anywhere near the two Diamondbacks. The six footer's rattle could be heard across the yard.

Pearce tried to steer him near the pygmy again, but Zio would have none of it, scurrying to the end of the rope to hide behind a spectator.

So it seems that Zio has retrained his snake avoidance training just fine from last year. The fact that he got hit earlier this month was simply a matter of bad luck: he happened upon a pygmy that was so well hidden he simply couldn't sense it.

Nevertheless, we WILL be back again to do a refresher!
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by phermes1 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:52 am

I'm glad Doc has added a pygmy to his clinic. I wasn't planning on going this year as my dogs have all been re-done at least once and wouldn't get anywhere near the snakes and never needed a shock. But with all the snakebites that we've seen recently - I'm gonna be safe. Check went out last week for the TBVC clinic at the end of July.
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by asc » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:57 pm

SubMariner wrote:We had Zio back at Snake Avoidance training Sunday morning. Dr. Calderwood remembered us from last year, kindly inquiring as to how Zio's health is post-strike. We were happy to report that other than the sections of fur that are still growing in from where he was shaved for sensors or IVs, he looks & seems just fine.

The very first snake out was a 1' pygmy. Zio didn't go within 5 feet of it. AAMOF he jumped away so quickly & forcefully that we though that Bud had zapped him with the collar. But no, he did it all on his own!

Meanwhile, he wouldn't anywhere near the two Diamondbacks. The six footer's rattle could be heard across the yard.

Pearce tried to steer him near the pygmy again, but Zio would have none of it, scurrying to the end of the rope to hide behind a spectator.

So it seems that Zio has retrained his snake avoidance training just fine from last year. The fact that he got hit earlier this month was simply a matter of bad luck: he happened upon a pygmy that was so well hidden he simply couldn't sense it.

Nevertheless, we WILL be back again to do a refresher!
I must have just missed y'all,left around 10:30. He did my dog second, she went straight for the diamondback and got lit up. She had a hard time smelling the pygmy though. After both she wouldn't get near either one. I hope this will cure her snake killing habits. I'll proabaly go back next year just to see if she retains it.
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by SubMariner » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:50 pm

asc wrote:I must have just missed y'all,left around 10:30. He did my dog second, she went straight for the diamondback and got lit up. She had a hard time smelling the pygmy though. After both she wouldn't get near either one. I hope this will cure her snake killing habits. I'll proabaly go back next year just to see if she retains it.
Ah... we just missed each other. We arrived at Bud's shortly after 10:30 am.

I hope everyone's training takes hold!

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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by SubMariner » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:04 pm

phermes1 wrote:I'm glad Doc has added a pygmy to his clinic. I wasn't planning on going this year as my dogs have all been re-done at least once and wouldn't get anywhere near the snakes and never needed a shock. But with all the snakebites that we've seen recently - I'm gonna be safe. Check went out last week for the TBVC clinic at the end of July.
Bud didn't have a pygmy out last year when we were up at his house until we specifically asked for it. Given the number of pygmy bites this year I guess he thought it was a good idea to have it out there with the rest of them. I don't know if that means he'll have one when he does a traveling clinic or just the fact that he keeps one at his house. It may not be a bad idea to have the TBVC clinic organizers specially request that he have one.
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Re: Another Snake Bite!

Post by phermes1 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:21 pm

SubMariner wrote: Bud didn't have a pygmy out last year when we were up at his house until we specifically asked for it. Given the number of pygmy bites this year I guess he thought it was a good idea to have it out there with the rest of them. I don't know if that means he'll have one when he does a traveling clinic or just the fact that he keeps one at his house. It may not be a bad idea to have the TBVC clinic organizers specially request that he have one.
Will do, thanks for the heads up.
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