us open pheasant trials?

[birddog1968]

My thoughts exactly Ezzy!!!! I guess style is in the eye of the beholder, but anything from a 10:00 to a 12:00 tail looks great to me, and I certainly don't want my dogs looking up into the trees or sky while on point. Charlie

Yah but - some people think that is what is meant by a highly prized "limb find".

Yea dogs like that look terrible don't they.....and surely can't win anything

[BigShooter]

My thoughts exactly Ezzy!!!! I guess style is in the eye of the beholder, but anything from a 10:00 to a 12:00 tail looks great to me, and I certainly don't want my dogs looking up into the trees or sky while on point. Charlie

Yah but - some people think that is what is meant by a highly prized "limb find".

Yea dogs like that look terrible don't they.....and surely can't win anything

bd1968,

If that was a hunting photo, did you shoot the bird off the limb or flush it first? I see where the dog's eyes are looking!

[BigShooter]

We need to liven things up a bit with a new set of prizes for our games, kind of like golf. We need prizes for "furthest point from the bird", "best head crank", "best 12, 11 & 10 o'clock tails" and some goofy ones like, "best run off", "quickest broken point", "most acrobatic horsemanship". It's best not to take all of this too seriously.

[Ron R]

and I certainly don't want my dogs looking up into the trees or sky while on point.

Charlie has hunted with and handled this dog many times and this kind of style really does nothing for him :roll: .


Same dog different find and this is what he and some other folks prefer . I personally prefer the high head crank with a 12:00 tail .

Ron

[BigShooter]

Ron,

I see you figured out how to upload pictures. I suppose we're going to forced to look at more GSPs without docked tails! Seriously though - nice pictures!

[birddog1968]

You guys that dog I posted is not mine....that is 9 x Champion , 4x National Champion Honky Tonk Attitude.

Bears mentioning, he was thought to be a cull....His FDSB numbers are 53-254-1528

[BigShooter]

Like I said, a long tailed GSP. Where's the dished out forehead?

I was sitting around the campfire at a trial one night and a couple of geezers older than me were telling stories about how a couple of guys had bred GSPs into their well known pointer lines to get tougher, sharper dogs back in the day.

[slistoe]

We need to liven things up a bit with a new set of prizes for our games, kind of like golf. We need prizes for "furthest point from the bird", "best head crank", "best 12, 11 & 10 o'clock tails" and some goofy ones like, "best run off", "quickest broken point", "most acrobatic horsemanship". It's best not to take all of this too seriously.

Or we could not pander to those who don't want anything past the superficial and stick with what makes real bird dogs.

[birddog1968]

Like I said, a long tailed GSP. Where's the dished out forehead?

I was sitting around the campfire at a trial one night and a couple of geezers older than me were telling stories about how a couple of guys had bred GSPs into their well known pointer lines to get tougher, sharper dogs back in the day.

Ive got some great land up on Mt. Saint Helen's I would like to show you...great price, full of wildlife. Great fishing ....Here is a photo.

[tommyboy72]

Superficial is what sells pups. Pups make money.

[ezzy333]

All in the eye of the beholder evidently but back in earlier times dogs were suppose to point game and not pose looking skyward. And my idea of a pointing dog is one that points the game with style and a dog that is pointing skyward just doesn't cut it. I think it is another example of people trying to change things that don't need changing. And most times they produce something so far from the practical and concentrate on the superficial. A dog looking skyward is no longer doing the job they were bred for but rather just saying there is a bird some where up wind from where I am.

Nope, no thanks, give me a pointing dog that is smart enough to tell you where the bird is.

JMO

Ezzy

[birddog1968]

I think people read way too much into things....the dog is pointing a bird just like the low point , laydown point, high head point......its all the same. I don't think anyone ever had trouble finding the bird in front of HTA.....his record of wins and production records prove that.

It again, is all in the eye of the beholder. My HTA granddaughter rarely points with a high head, so nothing has been fundamentally changed.

I have also heard the same dissatisfaction with what another breeder did in breeding lines of white dogs.


This subject would make a whole other thread, when should our dogs quit changing? 1810,1910, 2010?

[birddogger]

Intesity is style to me. The high head crank just doesn't look natural and I don't see any intensity there. It looks like they are posing for a picture and it does make a pretty picture. One example of what I am talking about is a dog running flat out down the edge of a field or fencerow, turn half sideways and slam on point. Now that is what gets my blood boiling. Now take a dog running the same way and he slows down and stands still with his head looking upward. I will still have fun walking in and getting some action, but it is just not the same. Sure, they win trials and I guess alot of judges score higher on the head crank , but this is JMO, on the matter.

Charlie

[birddog1968]

Intesity is style to me. The high head crank just doesn't look natural and I don't see any intensity there. It looks like they are posing for a picture and it does make a pretty picture. One example of what I am talking about is a dog running flat out down the edge of a field or fencerow, turn half sideways and slam on point. Now that is what gets my blood boiling. Now take a dog running the same way and he slows down and stands still with his head looking upward. I will still have fun walking in and getting some action, but it is just not the same. Sure, they win trials and I guess alot of judges score higher on the head crank , but this is JMO, on the matter.

Charlie

The head usually lifts(sometimes slowly) after they've slammed point, and I mean slammed, HTA didn't win 54 times with 4 NC sidling on up to a bird. It is in fact the intensity that makes their head climb.

And as it relates to USPCh and BDC, well thats like tee ball is to the majors.

[BigShooter]

We need to liven things up a bit with a new set of prizes for our games, kind of like golf. We need prizes for "furthest point from the bird", "best head crank", "best 12, 11 & 10 o'clock tails" and some goofy ones like, "best run off", "quickest broken point", "most acrobatic horsemanship". It's best not to take all of this too seriously.

Or we could not pander to those who don't want anything past the superficial and stick with what makes real bird dogs.

At least one person got the point.

[birddog1968]

You guys just ignore facts it seems, go straight to the source. See if what SMK sells is head crank. There are a quite a few dogs for sale out of HTA sons and daughters on the site. Its pretty obvious he isn't trying to market head crank. :roll:

[BigShooter]

bd1968,

I just want to know more about that salt water property you have on Mt. St. Helen's before we get down to brass tacks!

Personally if I took a dog out in the woods grouse hunting and they did a head crank like that I'd be lookin' in the trees for a ruffed grouse on a branch.

If judges like it and it helps a dog win I have no problem with that. I think that kind of a pose for a picture looks great too.

When I hunt phez, sharptails, huns & ruffed grouse I prefer to be able to see from the dog's head position exactly where the quarry is. If I had a laser light strapped to my female's nose the light'd be fixed right on the bird. That's just my personal preference.

[birddogger]

The head usually lifts(sometimes slowly) after they've slammed point, and I mean slammed, HTA didn't win 54 times with 4 NC sidling on up to a bird. It is in fact the intensity that makes their head climb.

I don't want my dog's head lifting or anything else moving once he has established a point. When they slam that point, they hold whatever position they are in. That is intensity...That is style! This is also just my personal preference. I am not saying you are wrong.

Charlie

[slistoe]

The head usually lifts(sometimes slowly) after they've slammed point, and I mean slammed, HTA didn't win 54 times with 4 NC sidling on up to a bird. It is in fact the intensity that makes their head climb.

I don't want my dog's head lifting or anything else moving once he has established a point. When they slam that point, they hold whatever position they are in. That is intensity...That is style! This is also just my personal preference. I am not saying you are wrong.

Charlie

Did you ever own a dog like that? One that swelled bigger and higher the more scent he drank? I have had the pleasure.

[birddogger]

Did you ever own a dog like that? One that swelled bigger and higher the more scent he drank? I have had the pleasure.

No, I have not and have never seen it.

Charlie

[birddog1968]

I was gettin a bit to involved last night fellas....after ripping speed trials , I thought a class dog would get some high praise.....guess i was wrong.

The other day we had a training day, birds were scattered all over the farm. I took my HTA granddaughter out (she rarely cranks her head)after wards.....she went down a tree line bout 400 yards ahead and disappeared thru a chute
to another field. I decided I would just mosey on down there no rush, after 4-5 minutes I turned the corner to see her standing right where she disappeared from my sight standing on her toes with her head tossed up , she looked like a bronze statue. bird was 10 yards ahead in the center of the lane playing like it was a lump of dirt. What a sight, I thought and
what a dog her granddad must have been I thought, walked past her and flushed the bird (no shoot). tapped her off and in 10 seconds she pointed another this time low in the front (same intensity different pose).

Guess this cemented HTA in my head and why I put his pic up when the talk about style started. Again I got over involved last night, To each their own.

BigShooter just send cash and I will send ya the deed

[BigShooter]

Hey bd1968,

I know my current favorite breed & what I like to see when I'm hunting the birds I go after in the terrain we travel but that doesn't mean I'm not jealous and incapable of appreciating a really fine specimen of another breed!

You'll get your cash as soon as my boat hits the water!

BTW, are you one of those geologists that bought up land in the Arizona desert so you'll have beach front property after the big quake breaks California off?

[birddog1968]

Hey bd1968,


BTW, are you one of those geologists that bought up land in the Arizona desert so you'll have beach front property after the big quake breaks California off?

No I'm the one who bought a lot next to Yellowstone so I'll be the first gone with the super volcano goes up

[BigShooter]

Superficial is what sells pups. Pups make money.

Likely true. That gets us into the old "tradition vs. changing times" discussion.

At every one of the last three trials I was at the local breed clubs were saying entries for field trials are down. Now do you keep the activities "pure" & traditional, wait for the economy to rebound or do you make some changes for marketing purposes?

We ice fish in Minnesota. There are ice fishing contests held on nearly all of the larger, well known fishing lakes as well as many of the smaller lakes. In nearly every contest you have pros & semi-pros (amateurs as good as any pro) who have the best odds of winning. On some lakes we'll see 5,000 or more people on the ice in a contest. They are there not only because they could get lucky & beat the experts but because nice prizes are given for things like smallest fish, 132nd largest fish as well as drawings for prizes based upon your entry ticket.

Now if a local club is barely hanging on for say its 30th year by its fingernails do you change anything to generate more interest and build a market or do you stay traditional, keep it pure and watch the club dwindle? The spectrum of possible changes goes all the way from something relatively minor to so many changes (and some not very good) the game is as some would say, diminished to the point of being superficial.

Just musing.

[birddog1968]

diminished to the point of being superficial.

Just musing.

aka BDC & US Open Phez "Championship.....

Shame is good dog work and timed events can go hand in hand if people make it that way.

[Meller]

I've seen some good dog work in the BDC; never seen open pheasant championship, so really can't comment about that.
Now if my club was endanger, rather than change the rule's of a venue I would look into offering another venue.
I've think we all have to be carefull of demeaming any venue reguardless of what it is, BDC -UFTA- AA -Shooting Dog-Open pheasant championship-Hunting and so on; all these no matter which one ,is what keeps the bird dog world turning and keeps it strong.
JMO

[birddog1968]

Keep it strong? or erode from within? Have you watched the Championship video's for each venue posted in this thread?
Good dog work does not come to mind.

[ezzy333]

Keep it strong? or erode from within? Have you watched the Championship video's for each venue posted in this thread?
Good dog work does not come to mind.

What we call good dog work is our opinion and is normally based on what works well with your objectives. In timed events those dogs are performing well for the game they are playing. This is something we all need to be careful of when we think what we want is better than what someone else wants. We have discussions all the time about AA dogs being the Cadillac of trialing and then we try to make the conversion to saying because they are great trial dogs they are the best hunting dogs as well. But there are many many people who take just as great offense of that as you are of the timed trials.

Good dogs can be trained to hunt the way you want them to and I think you are seeing that with the US Pheasant Trials. A problem for all of us when we dream up games to play with our dogs, then make rules that can be judged and declare the dogs that best conforms to our man made rules for the trial the the winner, and then try to convince all of dogdom that these dogs are the greatest in the world for all purposes.

I don't like the format I see either but I sure don't equate that to poor dog work or that it is evil and will lead all people to look down on us or our dogs. Some will but those people already had that opinion. As long as we have dogs that can smell, will point or flush a bird, and retrieve what we shoot we are OK. But when our dogs get to the place where they can not do those things and can not be trained to perform the way we like them to then and only then have we lost the game.

Hunting dogs are hunting dogs and they are versatile enough to be able to perform the way we want them to but no one venue other than finding birds make the dog better than the rest.

Ezzy

[birddogger]

Keep it strong? or erode from within? Have you watched the Championship video's for each venue posted in this thread?
Good dog work does not come to mind.

What we call good dog work is our opinion and is normally based on what works well with your objectives. In timed events those dogs are performing well for the game they are playing. This is something we all need to be careful of when we think what we want is better than what someone else wants. We have discussions all the time about AA dogs being the Cadillac of trialing and then we try to make the conversion to saying because they are great trial dogs they are the best hunting dogs as well. But there are many many people who take just as great offense of that as you are of the timed trials.

Good dogs can be trained to hunt the way you want them to and I think you are seeing that with the US Pheasant Trials. A problem for all of us when we dream up games to play with our dogs, then make rules that can be judged and declare the dogs that best conforms to our man made rules for the trial the the winner, and then try to convince all of dogdom that these dogs are the greatest in the world for all purposes.

I don't like the format I see either but I sure don't equate that to poor dog work or that it is evil and will lead all people to look down on us or our dogs. Some will but those people already had that opinion. As long as we have dogs that can smell, will point or flush a bird, and retrieve what we shoot we are OK. But when our dogs get to the place where they can not do those things and can not be trained to perform the way we like them to then and only then have we lost the game.

Hunting dogs are hunting dogs and they are versatile enough to be able to perform the way we want them to but no one venue other than finding birds make the dog better than the rest.

Ezzy

Excellent post!

Charlie

[birddogger]

I was gettin a bit to involved last night fellas....after ripping speed trials , I thought a class dog would get some high praise.....guess i was wrong.

The other day we had a training day, birds were scattered all over the farm. I took my HTA granddaughter out (she rarely cranks her head)after wards.....she went down a tree line bout 400 yards ahead and disappeared thru a chute
to another field. I decided I would just mosey on down there no rush, after 4-5 minutes I turned the corner to see her standing right where she disappeared from my sight standing on her toes with her head tossed up , she looked like a bronze statue. bird was 10 yards ahead in the center of the lane playing like it was a lump of dirt. What a sight, I thought and
what a dog her granddad must have been I thought, walked past her and flushed the bird (no shoot). tapped her off and in 10 seconds she pointed another this time low in the front (same intensity different pose).

Guess this cemented HTA in my head and why I put his pic up when the talk about style started. Again I got over involved last night, To each their own.

BigShooter just send cash and I will send ya the deed

Hey birddog, I thought we had a good discussion and I can appreciate your passion because I am the same way. The dog in your picture looked great and I am sure he is a great dog, and I wasn't trying to take anything away from him. It is not a discussion of right or wrong, it is just a matter of personal preference and that is not going to change. I am sure you would have gotten more comments on the picture, in a different thread. Also, your young dog sounds like a dandy and sounds like he is very intense. When you said "what a sight", that is what I am talking about. That is something we can all appreciate.

Charlie

[birddog1968]

Good post Ezzy and Charlie.

[shanebevel@gmail.com]

Style is fine, but let's take into account that there are as many different types of style as there are dogs. My setter doesn't have a 12 o'clock tail, as a matter of fact, he doesn't even have a consistent tail. It's all over the place, that's because it stops where it stops. I like it that way. I like that I can typically tell where the the bird is by where he is looking. Will he ever win a field trial? Likely not. First off, he is a rescue and second he is a "huge" dog at 55 lbs. He can hunt all day within 100 yards of the gun, but he won't be disappearing over the horizon anytime soon. But he's a beautiful dog to hunt over. When he comes to a sliding/spinning stop when working with the wind there is nothing better in my opinion.

I am not a fan of the format being discussed here, but the talk of "furthering the breed" cracks me up. Furthering the breed to what end? My uncle has a pretty little pointer with a nice 12 oclock tail out of a Silver Bullet line. He specifically wanted that tail, shopped for it, bought it and now never sees it because the dog never hunts inside 300 yards. In the cedar breaks of north central Texas that basically means the dog is useless to a walking hunter.

Breed your dogs for the traits that you want, but be honest that they are specific traits for a specific game.

If you want to see a format that I really like, check out our local club's format here: http://tulsabirddogclub.org/page40/page40.html I really feel this format allows hunters to bring their dogs and run them in a competition that extends the season and gives them bragging rights at the same time in a pretty laid back fashion.

And hey Tommy... would love for you to make the trip over this fall and run one or more of our gun dog trials. Maybe come out for the fun hunt where the only judging is on the number of birds in the bag. No need to pack your Nikes though.... no running allowed.

Shane

[birddog1968]

Your uncle bought a dog out of AA breeding and is upset he has a big going dog?

and that enters into this how? Am I missing something?

[shanebevel@gmail.com]

Your uncle bought a dog out of AA breeding and is upset he has a big going dog? and that enters into this how? Am I missing something?

Furthering the breed to what end? The end of the AA breeder is not the end of my uncle's desire. He would have been better off with the "poor" performance of one of the BDC dogs. That's my point. I fully understand what he got into buying an AA dog and would never do so myself for the same reason you are getting at. But my point remains, there are different games and uses for dogs, so how can one group claim to do more to further the breed than another?

Shane

[tommyboy72]

Sounds like fun but by reading your rules I see a lot " A Judge shall" meaning a lot of the judging is left up to human interpretation and that was the only reason I was defending the BDC format. There is nothing left up to the judge. It is about the dog, the shooter/handler, and the clock. I may try and make it over and run a trial this year though. Thanks for the invite.

[birddog1968]

Your uncle bought a dog out of AA breeding and is upset he has a big going dog? and that enters into this how? Am I missing something?

Furthering the breed to what end? The end of the AA breeder is not the end of my uncle's desire. He would have been better off with the "poor" performance of one of the BDC dogs. That's my point. I fully understand what he got into buying an AA dog and would never do so myself for the same reason you are getting at. But my point remains, there are different games and uses for dogs, so how can one group claim to do more to further the breed than another?

Shane

My take is he may have been better off with a walking SD or a Nstra breeding rather than an AA breeding. Just as your uncle wasn't happy he got such a big ranging dog, someone in Sak might not be happy with a cover dog breeding....lets not berate the breeders cause the buyers look in the wrong place for the dogs they desire. Enjoy the flavors, there's one for everybody if you do your due diligence.

Blaming an AA breeder because they didn't supply you with a cover dog makes little sense to me, just sayin.

[ezzy333]

Blaming an AA breeder because they didn't supply you with a cover dog makes little sense to me, just sayin.

I didn't read any blame in there but rather he was making the same point you are and that is you tend to get what the parents were good at and you should pick something that fits your purpose. Lots of good dogs for hunting that have never seen a trial.

Ezzy

[birddog1968]

I got ya, reread and I see now....at first it seemed as if a type was singled out.

My mistake fellas