Now that there's a FC/AFC Black Shorthair...

[postoakshorthairs]

.Oh and Post....., I do believe that you are purposely trying to be a wisea$$.

Now that is something I'll agree with

[adogslife]

Another scenario - is it possible the AKC and the GSPCA didn't want black because it still was not accepted in Germany? The color wasn't really accpeted by many in Germany until 1970 - Quell KS Pottmes.Blacks were being culled in Germany by breeders.
It is possible the US wanted only the best for the registry and therfore excluded black.
We will never know but there had to be some (good) logic behind it.

[SFK]

This post has me thinking. I have to present this example about breeding to the best because the "for" black argument that the folks here are presenting is just not making sense to me compared to what they are arguing against, and by that I mean you are arguing against the GSPCA standard (hopefully it will help refine your argument and provide a different perspective because I am sympathetic to your cause):

Ayers - since you have a Vizsla, I will use that breed as an example. Right now the Vs have a restriction on the amount of white a V can have and even where it can occur. If there is too much they are instantly DQed. From what I understand, they even have someone measuring white at their national events and if there is too much white the dog cannot run. Now I have seen some of these Vs that have too much white. They would "better the breed" for sure from a performance aspect. Why do they not allow them to run or enter the show ring but yet the AKC will register them? Because the Vizsla Club of America has determined that once there is too much white, it is not a Vizsla in their eyes anymore.

Based on this example - the way the "better the breed" argument that is being presented in this forum will not hold water and is really not part of the argument. If you look at the Current German Shorthair Pointer of American breed standard, black is a DQ. Essentially, the GSPCA says that a black shorthair does not exist. Just the same with the trial/hunting titles that are awarded (GSPCA accepts the FC/AFC and hunt test standards and there is no tracking, fur, or water requirements). Yes they are not the same as Germany. You may be able to dual register a dog but the GSPCA is going toward a GSP that is much different than what Germany’s is. You have two different standards and have to accept that they lead breeders to two different types of dogs (both in the ring and in the field) as they strive for those standards. I know it seems harsh but when you get down to it that is what is happening and the beautiful thing about living in the U.S. is that you have the right to choose which standard you want to go to. I respect and embrace each of the standards because each country (GSPCA - is the US standard and DK - German) is different and expects different things out of their dogs. Isn't that why the GSPCA was formed or I would think that there would have been no interest in forming the GSPCA and creating its standard which differs from the German standard. The real question for me is why the black coloration intentionally left was out if black was already allowed in the German Standard from which the GSPCA standard was derived? The exclusion in the GSPCA standard appears pretty deliberate. Were they trying to say that as far as the GSPCA is concerned there is no such thing as a black shorthair? Where they trying to “protect” their vision of breed (and as I’ve stated the German and GSPCA versions are different) as the Vizsla Club of America is (those white Vs can compete in National Vizsla Association events no problem because of a different standard)?

I am sympatric to the black color cause and that is why I presented this because I feel this is the question you folks really need to answer if you are going to get the votes you require, IMO. You need to get the GSPCA to accept that a black shorthair exists (I will say that I do not own one but I feel they do exist). The map has been given to you how to get the field people to accept it. Produce black dogs that get titled in the ACCEPTED GSPCA standards for field (FC, AFC, NFC, NGDC, NAFC, NAGDC). Maybe tracking, obedience and agility titles would help with some of the people that show and participate in those venues. You need more than one or two in a particular venue to change the views of that group. How many? I don’t know -enough to get people’s attention. I would think AT LEAST more than 10 would be a good starting point. It will most likely take many more. That would be GSPCA recognized events. I am sorry but NVHDA, NSTRA, and DK titles won’t work on the grand scale because the GSPCA does not officially recognize those titles (although some members understand, respect, and strive for them).

Note: I am not trying to put the other Organization’s titles down in any way. I respect and honor them greatly. I am just saying you cannot use those titles in the argument because they are not recognized by the standard you are trying to change. If you want those titles or traits that are brought out by those titles to be recognized by the GSPCA, that would be another battle entirely.

[Dave Quindt]

Believe what you will - I believe the error is with the AKC. The club involved with the creating the standard was goverened by the AKC - I believe the error is with the AKC back in the begining.

Clearly the fault is not with the GSPCA or the AKC, but with the Germans.

If the Germans would have kept the breed in the motherland, under the iron grip of the DKV, and not let dogs leave then this mess would have never happened in the first place.

[ezzy333]

I know all this.
My point is - if the breed was recognized then someone (group of individuals running the AKC) had to have a vision of the breed. The AKC being primarily a show venue would want to control the standard to fit their own desires. Is it possible that the AKC did not know about the color black - or possibly, they were a rare color and decided not to include them - thinking their numbers are to small anyway?
They allow them to compete in all venues except the ring. They are rcognized as a tue GSP - what's up with the color thing?
Maybe they can't admit their error?

AKC has no part and probably no interest in what our standards are as their function is to maintain a stud book for all of the approved breeds. And there is a set procedure that must be followed to have the breed approved. Primarily they need prove that the breed is purebred and there are enough breeders and individual dogs to allow expansion of the breeds. Other duties of AKC are to do what the Breed clubs have asked them to do and their Board of Directors agree.

Just no way you can blame AKC for what we ask them to do.

Ezzy

[SFK]

Sorry I forgot to add JH, SH and MH as accepted field standards accepted by the GSPCA.

[adogslife]

I can see this was not percieved as politically correct.

deleted by original poster

[Ayres]

Ken,

That's an easy one......Absolutely nothing but color pattern. And I have a solid liver male along with many liver/white/ticked.

I'll agree wholeheartedly, when you're discussing a generic black dog or a generic liver dog. When you ask what a dog brings to the table, you have to look at a specific dog. The question can't be "what does the black coat color bring?", it has to be "what does this dog, (insert registered name here), bring to the table?"

If the question isn't phrased that way, then you're being intellectually dishonest by asking for a specific answer to a generalized question.

BUT....that color pattern is acceptable as the standard is written and has been since the inception of the GSP here in this country.

That's why people are working to get it changed.

I have another question.....If the standard is written for all GSPs in the USA for AKC registration,

I cut the quote off here because the premise is wrong. The standard is written by the GSPCA and adopted by the AKC for conformation. That written standard is not required to be adhered to for registration. The AKC has open registration when it comes to the GSP breed, which is why black is an acceptable color to be listed on the certificate. The better question would be "Why does the AKC allow open registration of dogs that don't conform to the written standard?" To that, I don't have an answer.

Also, would it not have been more advantagous to get the standard changed to include Black prior to everyone breeding for it?

Maybe, but personally I think no. This is the catch 22 situation I expressed before. You have some detractors saying that they want to see black dogs be proven before they'll vote for the standard change. There's no way to "prove" a black dog in the U.S. if it doesn't exist in the U.S. This argument is chicken & egg. Coulda, shoulda, woulda aside, it has to be one way or the other, and it simply is the way it is.

There were too many people breeding for black for color only and advertising the RARE Black GSP when this all started. I am thinking that maybe that has soured many GSPCA members to the acceptance of black.

That's probably true. How do you correct this situation? I would submit that the breed standard change would go a long way to resolve that issue, by reducing the so-called rarity as has been previously marketed.

Here is another question.......Why was the color black listed as a DQ in the first place?

That's a very good question. I've heard a few theories. The first one is that black dogs were not imported as the first GSPs to hit U.S. soil, and thus were excluded. Second, going along with the first, is that black was excluded to make it harder to cross the GSP with the Pointer. (DNA profiling would theoretically resolve this today.) The third that I have heard is that the breed club used a written standard from 1902 Germany as a guideline when writing the standard here, and in 1902 blacks were not yet accepted in Germany; Thus, blacks weren't accepted here when that standard was written, even though, by that time, blacks were accepted in Germany.

I don't think we'll ever have a real, concrete answer. Just speculation.

[Ayres]

Here's a question for those who say that they don't care if the standard gets changed or not:

Are you sending in your GSPCA ballots with a vote yes, a vote no, or nothing marked at all?

The point of this question is, all timely-returned ballots are counted, whether the question is answered or not. Only the "yes" votes count toward the change. Those marked "no" AND those without an answer are all counted against the change. Why? A change requires 66% of all the ballots received to be marked "yes". A ballot received, with no markings, increases the number of "yes" ballots required to hit that magic 66% figure. It is the same as a "no" vote.

So if you truly don't care, you shouldn't be sending in a ballot. Of course, there is usually more than one question on such a ballot and you may care about the second question, which creates a bad situation. But just remember how sending in that ballot impacts the results.

[fuzznut]

Congratulation to the owner/breeder of the Black FC!

One thing many of you are forgetting... Yes, black is a totally acceptable color with in the DK world... however, every single black dog bred within the DK system must pass certain performance tests before being bred. They are not being bred because they are black, or because they can produce pretty black puppies. They are being bred because they have proven themselves to be able to do the job required of them there. Of course, it's the same for the liver dogs.

Here, there are no requirements. People can and do breed for color alone. That's unfortunate, but true.

Breed your black dogs, use the very best black dogs in your breeding programs if they fit what you need. Why do they need to be in the show ring?
I have had the same question for the GWP world... (who by the way is in the midst, again, with the same arguments)
Any GSP or GWP with only a show CH..... who cares? They are a dime a dozen.

Do you really believe the Germans or the die hard DK folks would even understand this discussion? Their questions would be... what can that dog do? Not what color is it? And their answer would be.... AFTER if proves itself in the field, then, and only then will we consider it in the show ring.
Fuzz

[ACooper]

Just curious Cindy and Adam why you will "never" own one? Just an honest question, I dont show dogs and 100% do not care if it passes or not, but I find it silly that it hasn't.

I like my liver dogs- You find it silly it hasn't passed and I find it silly its even being discussed..

Pretty much people knowingly bred something that wasn't allowed and now since those select few didn't want follow the rules and theres enough black dogs running around with an AKC REG# the rules should change?

Think of it as a law, the speed limit is 25mph but a select few disobey it and drive 55mph should we just change the posted speed limit to 55 to accomadate the people who decide not to abide by the rules? Or should they continue to be ticketed if caught?

Fair enough I understand your side. I really dont care if black and white it allowed in the show ring as I doubt I would ever show a dog. The most amusing part of all this is the fact that a black dog can trial, test, agility etc, but not be shown, if they are DQ'd at shows they should be DQ'd from all competition and vice versa, of course this is just my opinion. What most everyone here will agree is the "FAD" or "RARE" breeders B......T is detremental to the breed and the only way to avoid this type of thing is trying to educate potential puppy buyers when you can.

[Ken Lynch]

The answer as to why the black GSP is allowed in all other AKC events other than the show ring is because no other AKC event requires adherence to the USA GSP breed stand as a condition to participate.

The presumption is that all GSPs judged in the show ring up until the time the standard put forth by the Minnesota GSP Club acting as the parent club for the GSP was in fact the standard used by the Germans. In 1936 the first two GSP achieved their AKC show championships.