Now that there's a FC/AFC Black Shorthair...

[vzkennels]

Jen I don't think a dogs color should have anything to do with a dogs performance.The dog is judged by it's performance & rewarded accordingly or atleast should be.

[raven34]

The LIVER pup that this black FC AFC MH produced, of course with help of a very accomplished male.



Sorry dont know how to make it smaller
Jen
EDIT: Took care of that for you, Jen. Greg J.

[dan v]

Just a question for you guys

If you were judging a field trial and you saw an incredible performance given by a black GSP, would you put her up or would you chose not to because of his/her color?

Just curious how a black would go over at national event. Input??
Jen

Jen, Really?

The judges people prefer to run under use the "best" dog regardless of breed, color, owner or handler.

Black GSP at a National? I don't know about the GSP selection process for the GSPCA...but I'd bet the number of GSP owners that get invited to judge is quite small. So it stands to reason some other breed person is gonna be riding. Me? I could not care less what color you roll out...show me one of these tri colored GSP's....if me and my partner agree it's the best dog...we'll use it.

[Ayres]

Woah. I leave work and don't check the board for 5 hours and there's 2 additional pages to go through! Looks like this discussion has been fruitful!

Sorry if this one is a little long, but I'm going to try to respond to multiple posts with one reply.

1.) First, Dave, you're right. There is, in fact, a yahoo group for solid liver GSPs. I didn't consider the colors that were already accepted in the breed standard as needing special web groups and websites, and I thought I was clear that when I said "no other color has that" I was talking about the other DQ colors in the American breed standard. After all, that's what I believed Greg was talking about and my post about the yahoo group was in response to his post. However, after I reread my post, I realize I wasn't clear about that at all. You caught me on it, and I hope I've been able to add some clarity with this post.

Of course, I'm not going to "quit while I'm behind", especially since I don't believe I am "behind". Besides, you wouldn't want me to take it easy on you, would you?

2.) My responses in bold green, and I removed the line breaks. I hope it isn't too hard to read.

Facts or speculation? Exaggeration is a frequently used technique to enhance a statement. The first point is speculation asserted as fact. How many comprise "this great number of breeders"? Black GSPs exist. The largest market segment is for the working dog & yet some "great number" of breeders are overlooking "maybe superior" black dogs because they can't be shown in a ring?
Well I didn't conduct a poll, but neither did you. I don't believe I've exaggerated anything. If you want me to give specifics, I cannot tell you anything that you will agree with simply because what is "best" is subjective, as I've said all along. By not citing specifics, my argument is admittedly one of theory. But the logic behind it is sound and the assumed variables are very practical.
I can address your point. There are no criteria so like you I'm willing to speculate any particular dog may be superior or inferior to another GSP for a breeding match.
And in so reasoning, do you not agree, then, that the exclusion of black shorthairs limits the ability to find possibly the best breeding prospect if a breeder did not go against the breed standard?
Your statement was addressed to me but apparently the point was directed to someone else.
Yes, it was. And that issue has since been cleared up.
You have made baseless assumptions about my intent twice.
Actually, you made assumptions about my intent twice. Remember your "incorrect perception of my intent"? Regardless, however, this issue is moot. You accepted my explanation of my actual intent, Ted owned up to making and/or agreeing with the argument, and I've accepted that regardless of Sally's FC/AFC Ted's mind hasn't changed about voting against black.
...
I asked you because you used the term betterment of the breed & suggested people were ignoring betterment of the breed. You then stated it was highly subjective and you were unable to define what people were ignoring.
Have you never heard the term "for the betterment of the breed" before this thread? Maybe I need to define it this way: Looking at specifics, the "betterment" of the breed is highly subjective but with generally accepted guidelines. For GSPs, a breeding should produce dogs that are conformationally sound (of course disagreements are going to be huge in this area considering the debate of the last 10 to 15 years), field worthy, with good temperaments and no health issues. What is specifically not for the "betterment of the breed" is when people overlook these guidelines and instead act on personal (and IMO selfish) motives, including their potential economic gain or loss and/or the potential economic gain or loss of another. Those kind of motives have nothing to do with the breed itself. They have nothing to do with the dogs, but everything to do with people and politics.
My answer is all encompassing. Each individual evaluates what is important to themselves personally based upon whatever notions they have & make decisions accordingly.
In my opinion potential economic inequities among breeders will be a consideration for some people and without a survey no one has any idea if this is a big issue or a little one.
I understand that. Because you asked that question of me, I just wanted to make sure you weren't insinuating that those voting against black were altruistic while those voting for black were looking for economic gain. On both sides of the debate there are people with selfish motives. Fair enough.

3.) Mark, a post like this usually is brought up before a vote on the breed standard change. This one was brought up not because of any impending vote. I am aware of none, and I believe it will likely be a couple more years before it's put on the ballot again. But with Sally finishing her FC, the topic was definitely ripe to be discussed again.

4.)

Ayres saw the chance for this all when the first black FC was posted up & seized it.
This in my opinion detracted from the owners Brag & has focused on all this BS that has been discussed before.

Actually, I split off this topic from the original brag posting specifically for the purpose of discussion of the impact of the accomplishment without detracting from the brag itself. If you want to congratulate the owners, the Brag thread is still available and entitled "Beyond Brag".

5.) It is Ayres, pronounced "Airz". In fact, it used to be "Ayers" until two generations before me. Then the "e" and the "r" got switched for an unknown reason. Little family history for ya.

6.)

Steve writes very well & I'm guessing he makes for a pretty fair lawyer (is there such a thing ). Seriously though I think he's a pretty good guy and if he wasn't a lawyer I'd cut him a lot more slack!

Ha! Thanks, I think. Us lawyers get picked on often, but we're used to it. (Heck, we know all the best jokes -- mostly due to running into other lawyers!) There are a lot of things that we have to do and go through for the sake of "proper procedure" and "following the letter of the law" and they really do seem silly until you're in that one situation where it makes a huge difference. I'd put the blame on legislators since they're the ones that make the hoops that have to be jumped through; But most legislators are lawyers too, so that argument bites in the end. Fair lawyer? I'd like to think so, but all lawyers are called to be advocates for their clients. Judges are called upon to be fair. That said, I am the type of guy who will call a foul on himself in a semi-competitive game of league basketball. Just ask my teammates (much to their chagrin).

Seriously, though, I am glad that this has been a point and counter-point debate with nobody getting nasty despite a large disparity in viewpoints. I knew this forum could handle a red hot topic like this with class. Thanks again, everyone, on both sides. Discussion can continue but please remember, it's very likely that "votes" will not change. If you feel yourself getting heated, click a sponsor link and then go play with your dog for an hour.

[Greg Jennings]

The dog is judged by it's performance & rewarded accordingly

Now, there is something in this thread that I can agree with!

Judge the dog. Did the dog put down the best run? Does the dog have value add to the gene pool? Then use the dog.

Is it a case of someone breeding for color rather than to produce the best GSP? Shame on them.

[ezzy333]

The dog is judged by it's performance & rewarded accordingly

Now, there is something in this thread that I can agree with!

Judge the dog. Did the dog put down the best run? Does the dog have value add to the gene pool? Then use the dog.

Is it a case of someone breeding for color rather than to produce the best GSP? Shame on them.

This is a post that should be remembered. But I will add, it should be the breeders and owners responsibility to insure the dogs meet the standard and not the judges. The judges are there to judge one aspect of the dog that they are qualified to judge due to their experience. When done this way the complete dogs that will improve the breed over all are the dogs that excel in all venues.

This argument will go on and on because everyone picks and chooses which part of the standard of the breed they agree with and consequently think everyone else should agree and the other parts of the standard are just there due to ignorance or politics. We can always find excuses for our opinions as we try to explain why our interpretation is the correct one. In all honesty I doubt if any of us today have more knowledge of what the framers of the standards or the country's constitution than they did when writing it.

We are lucky to live in a country where you are free to speak your mind on most any subject. And one of those subjects will always be that we are so much smarter today that we should rewrite the rules that got us to the present day. In the case of our dogs, we picked a breed we love and admire for its looks and abilities. It has those characteristics because of the breeders of the past following a standard of what the breed was suppose to look like and how it was to perform. But in our wisdom today we all seem to want to take the very things we like the most and change them, mostly for cosmetic purposes.

We live in the best country in the world, but we vote for change. We have the best dogs in the world, but lets change them by ignoring the parts of the standard we don't like and making everyone adhere to the parts we do like. So much in our dog world parallels exactly what is happening in our society. But then it is the same people isn't it? We all need to take responsibility for ourselves and not rely on some judge to do it for us. Judges may influence your decisions but it still is your responsibility to do what is right and not the judge. After all, the only thing you are paying for when involved in any competition is the judges opinion, and that in many cases is not as good as your own. But it is still you that has to take responsibility to live within the rules and not pick and choose only the ones you like.

Without standards we no longer will have breeds that look or perform like they do today. Are you all sure you want to see that happen? If color is not important then size shouldn't be either, or length of coat or ear and tail set. All are cosmetic but it is what makes a GSP a GSP or a Brit a Brit.

I'm too old to be smart enough to want to change everything,
Ezzy

[Adam]

The dog is judged by it's performance & rewarded accordingly

Now, there is something in this thread that I can agree with!

Judge the dog. Did the dog put down the best run? Does the dog have value add to the gene pool? Then use the dog.

Is it a case of someone breeding for color rather than to produce the best GSP? Shame on them.

This is a post that should be remembered. But I will add, it should be the breeders and owners responsibility to insure the dogs meet the standard and not the judges. The judges are there to judge one aspect of the dog that they are qualified to judge due to their experience. When done this way the complete dogs that will improve the breed over all are the dogs that excel in all venues.

This argument will go on and on because everyone picks and chooses which part of the standard of the breed they agree with and consequently think everyone else should agree and the other parts of the standard are just there due to ignorance or politics. We can always find excuses for our opinions as we try to explain why our interpretation is the correct one. In all honesty I doubt if any of us today have more knowledge of what the framers of the standards or the country's constitution than they did when writing it.

We are lucky to live in a country where you are free to speak your mind on most any subject. And one of those subjects will always be that we are so much smarter today that we should rewrite the rules that got us to the present day. In the case of our dogs, we picked a breed we love and admire for its looks and abilities. It has those characteristics because of the breeders of the past following a standard of what the breed was suppose to look like and how it was to perform. But in our wisdom today we all seem to want to take the very things we like the most and change them, mostly for cosmetic purposes.

We live in the best country in the world, but we vote for change. We have the best dogs in the world, but lets change them by ignoring the parts of the standard we don't like and making everyone adhere to the parts we do like. So much in our dog world parallels exactly what is happening in our society. But then it is the same people isn't it? We all need to take responsibility for ourselves and not rely on some judge to do it for us. Judges may influence your decisions but it still is your responsibility to do what is right and not the judge. After all, the only thing you are paying for when involved in any competition is the judges opinion, and that in many cases is not as good as your own. But it is still you that has to take responsibility to live within the rules and not pick and choose only the ones you like.

Without standards we no longer will have breeds that look or perform like they do today. Are you all sure you want to see that happen? If color is not important then size shouldn't be either, or length of coat or ear and tail set. All are cosmetic but it is what makes a GSP a GSP or a Brit a Brit.

I'm too old to be smart enough to want to change everything,
Ezzy

Very well said!

[Ayres]

There's two schools of thought there, Al. You have yours, being an adversity to change. Others might say something along the lines of "If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten." Some of us are looking to continually improve.

And, really, in your post when applied to the GSPCA breed standard, you have totally disregarded the fact that black coats were accepted in Germany before the American standard was written (1935) and subsequently revised (1975).

So, really, if a person shares your viewpoint then I think they could say that your post is very well said. But if a person doesn't share your viewpoint, it seems like a lot of nonsense.

I'm too old to be smart enough to want to change everything

Aside from the tongue-in-cheek nature of this sign-off, it is a clever way to attempt to avoid counter-arguments. How about this one:

Unsettled with "good enough" and always trying to get better,
Ayres

[adogslife]

How many times do I have to say my no vote has NOTHING TO DO WITH color.It's about the breeders & owners like dogslife that keep telling me DKS are superior to our American GSPS & there fore worth more.But if their DKS don't take the test to be registered as DKS for any reason the are registered as AMERICA GSPS.
If an American GSP was allowed to test & pass the DK test they would still be DENIED DK registration.
Now cry me a river if Black is not accepted!!

This is such bibble-babble.

Since when does a DK become a GSP? The original pedigree says DK and that's what it will always be. If an owner chooses to register AKC or NAVHDA then there is only one choice - GSP.The dog will have a multi rgistration.
If a DK does not test or qualify then it is still a DK. Only difference is it has lost breeding priviledges in the DKV.
I have no idea why DKV is preventing you from accepting black.
I'll tell you a little secret: if you had 5 generations of pure bred GSPs,5 generations of testing DKV and 5 generations of hips, you can petition DKV for eligibility. The difference between DK and GSP is the evaluation system for breeding.It says this on both websites.

[Reech]

There's two schools of thought there, Al. You have yours, being an adversity to change. Others might say something along the lines of "If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten." Some of us are looking to continually improve.

And, really, in your post when applied to the GSPCA breed standard, you have totally disregarded the fact that black coats were accepted in Germany before the American standard was written (1935) and subsequently revised (1975).

So, really, if a person shares your viewpoint then I think they could say that your post is very well said. But if a person doesn't share your viewpoint, it seems like a lot of nonsense.

I'm too old to be smart enough to want to change everything

Aside from the tongue-in-cheek nature of this sign-off, it is a clever way to attempt to avoid counter-arguments. How about this one:

Unsettled with "good enough" and always trying to get better,
Ayres

Ayres you say "some of us are looking to continually improve" but still after all your ranting haven't provided one bit of evidence that black is improving ANYTHING!

And in regards to your black coats were accepted in germany- If you're so worried about what is accepted in germany why dont you have a DK and play by their rules instead of trying to change the rules that have been in place here. You only want to pick out bits and pieces of a German standard that suits your needs.

Reech

[vzkennels]

This is not Germany so why should we follow what was allowed there & I don't think we have.

Germany had Hitler do we need one like him?
Almost every breed of dog that originated in Germany & came to this country has changed & most will say for the better.

[Ayres]

That's a fairly good attempt at spin, Reech. Of course a black coat alone doesn't improve anything. What I've continually said is that ignoring a dog with superb qualities simply because it has a black coat is a detriment.

And then there's the repetitive argument of "go get a German dog." The German Shorthaired Pointer is a German dog. (If you think it's not, then maybe you should be petitioning the AKC to recognize a new breed and create a new parent club.) I'm not trying to pick and choose anything. What I'm trying to do is to change the attitudes of some about the black coat color since the detractors have never been able to come up with a reason why the black coat color was excluded from the breed standard in the first place. The history of the breed predates the first import of the GSP into the United States, and looking at the breed history it is clear that the black coat color was accepted prior to the American breed standard being written. Because of that, in my opinion there is no good reason to limit breeding options based on the black coat color.

[wems2371]

I find a lot of hypocrisy in thinking that a standard written decades ago is infallible or has no latitude for change. If that was the case, and a breed never changed, all of us would have dogs resembling the originators of our breed from a century plus ago. I for one, am pretty glad my dogs don't look like those from the late 1800s. Evidently, some thought changes were okay along the way.

I love when people play the "then get a DK card", as if they are the sole keepers of the GSP breed. Speaking of Hitler--thank goodness things are open to vote and it's not a dictatorship as some would like it to be--and I'm not talking about those open to the idea of change or even having a vote.

Playing outside the standards in regards to black is interesting. This color already has a history within the breed, might be on some of our pedigrees many generations back, and is accepted by the originators of the breed. This is not a case of lets accept rainbow colored dogs or flukes, as some would like to muddy the waters with. So pending that a person is open to change :roll: , how do you get it approved--without proving the dog first, as some are doing. This is the whole chicken and egg--and which comes first.

[snips]

I find a lot of hypocrisy in thinking that a standard written decades ago is infallible or has no latitude for change. If that was the case, and a breed never changed, all of us would have dogs resembling the originators of our breed from a century plus ago. I for one, am pretty glad my dogs don't look like those from the late 1800s. Evidently, some thought changes were okay along the way.

I love when people play the "then get a DK card", as if they are the sole keepers of the GSP breed. Speaking of Hitler--thank goodness things are open to vote and it's not a dictatorship as some would like it to be--and I'm not talking about those open to the idea of change or even having a vote.

Playing outside the standards in regards to black is interesting. This color already has a history within the breed, might be on some of our pedigrees many generations back, and is accepted by the originators of the breed. This is not a case of lets accept rainbow colored dogs or flukes, as some would like to muddy the waters with. So pending that a person is open to change :roll: , how do you get it approved--without proving the dog first, as some are doing. This is the whole chicken and egg--and which comes first.

Very good post Denise...

[Ayres]

Germany had Hitler do we need one like him?

This is extremist, Ted, and not very tasteful. The United States also has a history of slavery and civil rights issues. You're not advocating that slavery should not have been abolished and that women shouldn't have the right to vote, are you? (Rhetorical, the answer is no.) Besides that, historically Hitler's Nazi regime believed that the brown colored dogs were superior, leading to the destruction of a great deal of black coated GSPs. That would definitely not be an argument used by the proponents of the black coat.

Let's keep the discussion going forward, and take it easy on the remarks designed to ignite passion rather than foster good, clean debate.

[Ayres]

I find a lot of hypocrisy in thinking that a standard written decades ago is infallible or has no latitude for change. If that was the case, and a breed never changed, all of us would have dogs resembling the originators of our breed from a century plus ago. I for one, am pretty glad my dogs don't look like those from the late 1800s. Evidently, some thought changes were okay along the way.

I love when people play the "then get a DK card", as if they are the sole keepers of the GSP breed. Speaking of Hitler--thank goodness things are open to vote and it's not a dictatorship as some would like it to be--and I'm not talking about those open to the idea of change or even having a vote.

Playing outside the standards in regards to black is interesting. This color already has a history within the breed, might be on some of our pedigrees many generations back, and is accepted by the originators of the breed. This is not a case of lets accept rainbow colored dogs or flukes, as some would like to muddy the waters with. So pending that a person is open to change :roll: , how do you get it approved--without proving the dog first, as some are doing. This is the whole chicken and egg--and which comes first.

Very good post Denise...

I second this. Denise, you said it better than I've been able to say it in twelve pages.

[vzkennels]

Ok AYRES (did I get it right Mark)Lets put all the sharpness back in our german breed dogs & Quit trying to breed it out of them so we still have Rotts & Dobes G Shepards attacking people like some of them still do today.Yeah I know i'm going to hear it's the breeders & not the dogs & all the old BS so yes we have changed these German Breeds to fit our way of living & again I state this is not Germay.
I don't know what all this fuss is about it will pass just with out my vote if enough really wanted the change it would have already been done.Get everyone that wants change signed up to the GSPCA & vote.
That's how we get change in this country or haven't you noticed??

Just another after thought I thought we weren't supposed to discuss politics on this site.So what do you call all this campaigning to get people to change their votes from nae to yae?

[dockgsp]

KUDOS to Jen & Den and Sally too

[Greg Jennings]

Can someone state, succinctly, what the issue is with a dog that has black versus, say, dark liver?

[vzkennels]

The Standard is the issue Greg it's a DQ I have solid LVR dogs & they are with in the stadard.I'm not a show person any longer & it doesn't affect me one way or the other.You know who my argument are with & why & it's not BLACK DOGS.
I will vote no untill the day I die & the more adds I see like posted in the 4 sale topic below the more determined I am about it.
Black is only a color right no big deal well so is tri color,gelber brand,Dobe marked shouldn't these colors be alloed since some of their litter mates are correct.
Oh & don't forget the rare colors are worth more.

[Reech]

KUDOS to Jen & Den and Sally too

Who is Jen, Den and Sally?

Just Kidding...

Reech

[Ridge-Point]

How about this..

There are a lot of nice Black dogs out there with potential to win in the show ring. There are many owners that would like to compete with their dog in that venue. That competition can only improve the quality of dogs that win or at least improve the quality of the win. It can only bring more revenue to the local clubs. It may even get more dogs out to some trials in hopes of a Duel Championship.

We have seen Black dogs excell in all venues which have allowed them to compete. They have excelled not because of their color, but because of the breeding behind them. I guess I just fail to see how denying a owner and dog a chance to prove themselves helps the breed in any way. The more competition the better.

[Adam]

How about this..

There are a lot of nice Black dogs out there with potential to win in the show ring. There are many owners that would like to compete with their dog in that venue.

If they wanted to compete in that venue then why didnt get a liver dog.

[vzkennels]

Oh & how about the other colors I mentioned don't they have the same rights to prove them selves.
Votes make changes that is proven so change it to your liking or 2/3 of the likings.
I can't say it any simpler then this.
TILL THE DAY I DIE.
This is my last post on this subject aslong as my NAME is left out of any further discussions about it

[Adam]

Oh & how about the other colors I mentioned don't they have the same rights to prove them selves.
Votes make changes that is proven so change it to your liking or 2/3 of the likings.
I can't say it any simpler then this.
TILL THE DAY I DIE.
This is my last post on this subject aslong as my NAME is left out of any further discussions about it

I"ll say it before anybody else does The other colors aren't accepted in germany so its totally different!

[Ridge-Point]

How about this..

There are a lot of nice Black dogs out there with potential to win in the show ring. There are many owners that would like to compete with their dog in that venue.

If they wanted to compete in that venue then why didnt get a liver dog.

Maybe they did not pick their dog based on show potential. Maybe they purchased the dog to excell in Navhda.

[Adam]

Then excel in navhda...If a conformation title means that much to you there are plenty of UKC fun matches blacks are accepted there or you can compete for the INTL CH title.

[wems2371]

Can someone state, succinctly, what the issue is with a dog that has black versus, say, dark liver?

I'm waiting for that too...otherwise all I'm hearing is the old boys network saying that's how it is and that's how it should stay for eternity.

I've heard economic greed, yet there was an all breed thread a very short time ago in regards to puppy prices, and how some though others were asking too much and no dog was worth more than a certain price and yada, yada, yada. I don't remember black even being mentioned or highlighted in that thread.

I've heard lack of DK registration reciprocity...which will continue regardless of black.

I've heard showring dilution of the breeds hunting abilities...and that happens regardless of black.

I've now heard how including black will bring back sharpness, yet quite a few folks on the forum have liver GSP pedigrees that include DK dogs close up. So what's the difference there?

Adam, I'm also having a hard time with your DK position, when you own a dog who's dam appears to be sooooo DK bred. Maybe I'm not reading that pedigree correctly, but it seems like a conflicting position to have...

[Ayres]

Ok AYRES (did I get it right Mark)Lets put all the sharpness back in our german breed dogs & Quit trying to breed it out of them so we still have Rotts & Dobes G Shepards attacking people like some of them still do today.Yeah I know i'm going to hear it's the breeders & not the dogs & all the old BS so yes we have changed these German Breeds to fit our way of living & again I state this is not Germay.
I don't know what all this fuss is about it will pass just with out my vote if enough really wanted the change it would have already been done.Get everyone that wants change signed up to the GSPCA & vote.
That's how we get change in this country or haven't you noticed??

Just another after thought I thought we weren't supposed to discuss politics on this site.So what do you call all this campaigning to get people to change their votes from nae to yae?

1) You got it right.
2) With regard to sharpness, you provided your own counter-argument, except that you equate black dogs to sharp dogs which is not the case. A black dog can be a sharp dog, just as much as a liver dog can be a sharp dog. Further, some people desire sharpness on game while others don't. I like my black dog, but I do not prefer sharpness. My black dog is not sharp at all.
3) I am trying to keep discussion on the topic fresh, to keep interested people in the know. You have to be a GSPCA member in order to vote, and often times you had to be a GSPCA member with dues paid by a certain date before your vote will count on a ballot (and history will tell us that the "certain date" will have passed before the Club notifies the members what will be on the ballot). So discussion of the topic well in advance of the item possibly being placed on the ballot seems the best route to go.

4) Governmental politics, no. Dog politics, absolutely. One is unrelated to dogs (well, you know what I mean), the other is highly related and a perfect topic. Just look at all the topic views and posts for this thread!

(And even though I quoted, I didn't use your name!)

[Ayres]

Then excel in navhda...If a conformation title means that much to you there are plenty of UKC fun matches blacks are accepted there or you can compete for the INTL CH title.

You can't get a DC from an Int'l CH title.

[vzkennels]

Ayres I tried to end this you just won't allow it,I DID NOT enter twine BlACK with SHARPNESS.I said all the German Breeds coming to this country have been changed to suit the American way of life.
Getting rid of Sharpness is one of those changes for the betterment.What I'm trying to say is just because Germany does one thing don't mean we have to follow suit.
I like the way you Mods can work it all to your liking so use it to get the CHANGE YOU WANT.
I'm WRONG YOUR RIGHT but guess what I have a vote & it counts for just as much as yours.
I think I will sign up a few members to vote my way next time hopefully I can delay it till I'm gone just to say HA!!
Now does that explain how I feel & how much more determined you make me for get any kind of arguments.

[Ridge-Point]

Then excel in navhda...If a conformation title means that much to you there are plenty of UKC fun matches blacks are accepted there or you can compete for the INTL CH title.

Actually a conformation title doesn't mean much to me personally. Really a Navhda title doesn't either. I enjoy competing against wild game with my dog. To each thier own, I am just not for restricting competition.

Black dogs have had an impact and proven their worth. I just see no reason to withhold them from AKC shows when they have something to contribute. Your dogs carry some of those contributions, just about every german import since the 1980's has some Ciro KS vom Bichtelwald in them. Would you pass over the next Ciro just because they were black?

[Adam]

Adam, I'm also having a hard time with your DK position, when you own a dog who's dam appears to be sooooo DK bred. Maybe I'm not reading that pedigree correctly, but it seems like a conflicting position to have...

What hard time are you having?

Yes alli's mother is a Liver and white AKC show champion MH DK I also own a Liver and White AKC Show Major pointed DK I don't understand whats so conflicting I'm still playing by the AKC rules the people with black are not.

[raven34]

Adam
Not eveyone buys a dog and knows exactly what venue they will chose to explore. When we bought our BLACK GSP we wanted a family pet/hunting dog. She is four and has a FC, AFC, MH. She has plenty of time left don't you think to get a few more titles. I think she has proven herself in the field and I know she is conformationally correct, it would just be nice to get a DC on a dog that is worthy of holding that title. Even if the black dogs are voted in, I am not sure we would enter the show ring with her,however, the option to do so would be nice. Time will tell. I guess until that choice is therem we can shoot for the VC right?

On another note,there are some responsible owners of BLACK DOGS out there that breed. Our black/liver puppies all had the same price tag on them. The price was determined on what accomplishments the dam and the sire had, not a color.
Jen

[Greg Jennings]

Black dogs have had an impact and proven their worth.

I don't necessarily agree that they have proven their worth. Someone please tell me of a black dog that is a world beater.

I just see no reason to withhold them from AKC shows when they have something to contribute.

I think that's part of the discussion. I think some are saying that with so many years down the line, the breed would be set back if black became an "in" thing.

Would you pass over the next Ciro just because they were black?

Now, that gets to my point. If, all things considered, the dog is outstanding, use the dog. If not, don't. I think everyone here is interested in bettering the breed and opposed to profiteering at the expense of the breed.

[postoakshorthairs]

What hard time are you having?

Yes alli's mother is a Liver and white AKC show champion MH DK I also own a Liver and White AKC Show Major pointed DK I don't understand whats so conflicting I'm still playing by the AKC rules the people with black are not.

Adam,
Would you buy a liver colored dog from a breeder that also breeds black dogs? If they did were breeding black dogs they wouldn't be playing by the rules in your book...

[Adam]

The rule book isn't mine the rule book is the GSPCA's. I have very good friends that with black dogs that have asked me to show their dogs as soon as it does pass...I personally would not own one which is why I said from the get go I could careless if it passes or if it doesnt..

[Greg Jennings]

So, define world beater!!!

All things considered, males and females that can be made a good case for being in the top 25 or so in the whole GSP gene pool.

[Adam]

I personally would not own one which is why I said from the get go I could careless if it passes or if it doesnt..

That's a little self centered don't you think!! I don't own one either. If you owned one I'm sure you'd sing a different tune

I wouldn't own one.

[BigShooter]

Summary for Greg:

As I understand it people that acquired black dogs under the existing standard would like the standard changed. Another way to say this is that people that acquired black dogs under one set of rules now feel like those existing rules are having a negative impact and black dog owners and breeders seek relief.

As I understand it:

Proponents for change:

1.

What is fact is that, because currently black is a DQ color in the show ring, for a great number of breeders all black dogs are overlooked as additions to their breeding program.

2. Individual black dogs may exist that would be superior for a particular breeding.

3. Changing the standard to allow black may be for the betterment of the breed.

4. Black is currently a DQ in the show ring. Some black owners have indicated they would like to show their dogs.

5. The American Standard was changed 50 years ago or so and is now different than German DK colors allowed. One or more members believe human nature can & should be ignored. Change for the benefit of the few will be good for the many.

Issues:

1. We don't know if a large number or a small number of breeders are overlooking black dogs. "A great number of breeders" would appear to indicate a certain demand for the black market. Black breeders would like the opportunity to meet that demand as only they can.

2. Individual black dogs that would be superior to an existing standard colored dog for a particular breeding may or may not exist. Some posters have suggested they'd like to see enough successful black dogs to be convinced that the black segment would be a welcome addition to the GSPCA standard. My perception is the requirement for convincing some folks is more than a handful of successful dogs.

by DGFavor » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:49 pm

If'n it were me, I wouldn't make such a big deal about it and would steadily go about my business of doing it again...and again...and again. Build a history of success, prove your dogs not their color, and acceptance will follow.

3. There is no concensus nor a preponderance of evidence that demonstrates adding black to the standard would result in the betterment of the breed.

4. While DQ'd in the show ring. Field trials have always been available to showcase working dogs.

5. I believe it is very naive of anyone to think this is merely about color in the show ring only and that it isn't about the divergence of breed development between the U.S. & Germany, equity, economics & politics. I for one don't believe for one minute that the majority of non-backyard breeders don't have any desire to showcase their dogs in venues to increase the demand and value of their pups. Solely for the betterment of the breed just doesn't wash well.

edited for 1 typo

[Ayres]

Ayres I tried to end this you just won't allow it

Where did I not allow it to end? I addressed your points, that's all. If you don't want to reply, just don't.

I DID NOT enter twine BlACK with SHARPNESS.

In this discussion about adding black to the breed standard, you brought up sharpness. Your words, not mine. If you didn't mean to intertwine the black color with sharpness, then why bring it up at all?

I said all the German Breeds coming to this country have been changed to suit the American way of life.

Really? Have you looked at every dog of German origin or ancestry and verified that they have changed? And whose "American way of life" are you referring to? Yours, or mine?

Getting rid of Sharpness is one of those changes for the betterment.

If black and sharpness are not to be intertwined, then what does this statement have to do with anything in this discussion?

What I'm trying to say is just because Germany does one thing don't mean we have to follow suit.

We brought over the breed from Germany. The GSP was established by "following suit" with the German breeders. Your point is taken that we in the U.S. can do what we want. What I want is for the American breed standard to be changed to allow black in the show ring. That would be a change to suit my "American way of life."

I like the way you Mods can work it all to your liking so use it to get the CHANGE YOU WANT.

I'm at a loss as to what you mean here. You don't address my points, but instead claim some sort of foul because I'm a moderator. I haven't changed or edited anything in this thread, save a few typos.

I'm WRONG YOUR RIGHT but guess what I have a vote & it counts for just as much as yours.

Yes, you're right. Your vote does count so long as your dues are paid. And as I've said time after time, I acknowledge that you will vote against black and there's nothing that anyone can say to change your mind. I've never disagreed with your absolute right to vote in the manner that you choose. I've got a right to my vote, too.

I think I will sign up a few members to vote my way next time hopefully I can delay it till I'm gone just to say HA!!
Now does that explain how I feel & how much more determined you make me for get any kind of arguments.

I don't think there was ever any doubt on how you feel. Just doubt of the purported basis for those beliefs.

[vzkennels]

I brought the sharpness up AH because we changed that in this country so we don't have dogs attacking people now I have tried to quit the BS aregument before it has come to this but you want to keep it up by bringing my name up so as to leads to this.So if Im being un civil ban me & be & done with it .When I get mad enough to aregue I'm mad enough to fight so bring it on Get The picture now AYRES I was trying to discuss it but has turned into an aregument & made in personal the way I see it so do as you please.You have not given one example of how it will improve the breed so KISS MY A$$.

[Adam]

I brought the sharpness up AH because we changed that in this country so we don't have dogs attacking people now I have tried to quit the BS aregument before it has come to this but you want to keep it up by bringing my name up so as to leads to this.So if Im being un civil ban me & be & done with it .When I get mad enough to aregue I'm mad enough to fight so bring it on Get The picture now AYRES I was trying to discuss it but has turned into an aregument & made in personal the way I see it so do as you please.You have not given one example of how it will improve the breed so KISS MY A$$.

Thats all I've been waiting for as well just ONE example of how it will improve the american GSP?

[volraider]

Orson von Pottsipien would be a black dog that has contributed a lot to the breed. Orson was a hard charging fool who could have competed in field trials. I never seen him run but with talking to a lot of people this seems to be the case.

[vzkennels]

Adam it's not about the American GSP it's about the German GSPS so I say to all of them MOVE TO GERMANY it's the standard there.

[vzkennels]

Raven I sent you a PM please read it.

[adogslife]

Game sharpness is an important part of being a quality gun dog. if I come across a coyote,wolf,bear,etc I want to know my dog will not run,tail between legs and leave me there. To conserve and preserve wild game for humans,as hunters it is our responsibility to control the numbers of our game's prey - such as coyote,fox,marten,etc. If I shoot a fox I want to be assured my dog can step in and finish the job.
This apparent dislike of German made is foundless - since you own a German breed.

Adam,
a bit hypacritical of you to show a paying customer's black dog yet you would never own one yourself since you believe they are worthless in AKC.
Wonder if those paying cusomers know how you really feel about their dogs?

[Adam]

Game sharpness is an important part of being a quality gun dog. if I come across a coyote,wolf,bear,etc I want to know my dog will not run,tail between legs and leave me there. To conserve and preserve wild game for humans,as hunters it is our responsibility to control the numbers of our game's prey - such as coyote,fox,marten,etc. If I shoot a fox I want to be assured my dog can step in and finish the job.
This apparent dislike of German made is foundless - since you own a German breed.

Adam,
a bit hypacritical of you to show a paying customer's black dog yet you would never own one yourself since you believe they are worthless in AKC.
Wonder if those paying cusomers know how you really feel about their dogs?

First off I never said I would show them Second I do not charge people to show dogs Thirdly where did I ever say they are "worthless"?

[Ayres]

As I understand it people that acquired black dogs under the existing standard would like the standard changed. Another way to say this is that people that acquired black dogs under one set of rules now feel like those existing rules are having a negative impact and black dog owners and breeders seek relief.

Somewhat right, but not completely. Owners of black dogs and breeders of black dogs are not the only proponents to remove the color as a disqualification. Check this very thread to find people who don't own black dogs who would vote to allow black in the show ring.

...

5. The American Standard was changed 50 years ago or so and is now different than German DK colors allowed. One or more members believe human nature can & should be ignored. Change for the benefit of the few will be good for the many.

Actually, the last GSPCA vote showed 60% in favor of the change. It just wasn't enough to muster the necessary 66% to effectuate a breed standard amendment. With more votes in favor of the change than against it, you've incorrectly stated which side has the "few".

Issues:

1. We don't know if a large number or a small number of breeders are overlooking black dogs. "A great number of breeders" would appear to indicate a certain demand for the black market. Black breeders would like the opportunity to meet that demand as only they can.

Any breeder that breeds solely liver colored dogs is potentially overlooking a black dog for their breeding program. You're not going to know without a poll the specific percentage of breeders that overlook black as an option. That said, even without specifics it is a practical and logical statement; one that you haven't really refuted. Further, "a great number of breeders" has nothing to do with a demand for the black market. That phrase was used to show that there a larger number of breeders who breed liver only, to the exclusion of black. If you want specifics on that, do your own poll by taking 5 or 10 of the top gun dog magazines and reviewing the available litters posted in the classifieds. Or, go to some online gun dog classifieds and do the same thing there. Again, you haven't refuted this assertion of mine, and I don't expect you to. But if you're not going to refute it, don't try to spin it.

2. Individual black dogs that would be superior to an existing standard colored dog for a particular breeding may or may not exist.

Key words being, they may exist. You apparently admit that. If they do exist, why limit that breeding due to color alone?

Some posters have suggested they'd like to see enough successful black dogs to be convinced that the black segment would be a welcome addition to the GSPCA standard. My perception is the requirement for convincing some folks is more than a handful of successful dogs.

True, and also some folks will never be convinced. But also, some folks are convinced now. And some have been convinced since the question was first posed to them.

3. Their is no concensus nor a preponderance of evidence that demonstrates adding black to the standard would result in the betterment of the breed.

See above. There is a consensus, by your own admission, that adding black to the standard may result in the betterment of the breed. Therefore, by that admission, I can just as easily claim that there is a preponderance of the evidence that adding black will improve the breed, so long as the breedings are done selectively for the qualities of the dog and irregardless of color -- including black in some breedings and excluding black when a liver dog is more compatible.

4. While DQ'd in the show ring. Field trials have always been available to showcase working dogs.

And that's where Sally has gotten it done! Also, there exist other formats such as hunt tests, NSTRA, etc.

5. I believe it is very naive of anyone to think this is merely about color in the show ring only and that it isn't about the divergence of breed development between the U.S. & Germany, equity, economics & politics.

I wholeheartedly agree. I just believe that it should be solely about the dogs, and not about human equity, economics and politics. And for me, it is.

I for one don't believe for one minute that the majority of non-backyard breeders don't have any desire to showcase their dogs in venues to increase the demand and value of their pups. Solely for the betterment of the breed just doesn't wash well.

What about the people who want to compete but have never bred a litter? Rather than make assumptions about their motives, I tend to let people speak for themselves. That way it's perfectly clear what their motives are.

[adogslife]

DKs are not bred to be man sharp. That's the Weimeraner.

I gave an example of how a black dog can better the breed.
If the L/W's black littermate is a better choice for a breeding then that pairing will better the breed. Simply using or not using based on color is not bettering anything - it's sticking to foundless ideal.

Black has done well in DKV testing,I see no reason black would not do well in AKC.