Need some help i have a problem with one of my dogs.

[subatomicstang]

Quick back ground I have 2 GSP's 1 we got 1.5 year ago as a pup, and 1 we got a year ago from a Rescue. She was estimated to be 1.5 years of age when we got her.

The decision we made to bring this rescued GSP in is starting to haunt me. I had the idea that my pup needed a mate of sorts to play, and mingle with. Well while he is very smart and well on his way to great obediance ,and everything she is completely annoying Whineing non stop, super pushy , and starves for attention. we have tried to ignore her when she is whining and being pushy but boy does she find a way so that she cant be ignored. My pups obediance and training has been slowed drastically by the addition of such a tough dog. At this point its out of our skill level, and she is just annoying.

I dont know what to do. If i keep her here i dont feel as if my youngest will be able to mature , and be the best he can be. I hate to give up on a dog she is a real lover girl! I am gone 7 days at a time with work, and home 7 days so im basically non present every other week except for maybe a day or 2 if im lucky during my work week. My wife works full time, has horses, and she is at witts end with this dog as well. Its taking its toll. I will assume responsibility for the dogs behavior because obviously i havnt done what it takes.

Looking for advice in any way!

[mountaindogs]

Are they both indoors with you, do you have them together or seperate when you are home? Do they get along well? Do you live near an organized obedience class? Your female sounds like she would greatly benefit from some obedience, and manners type classes. Not a bad dog, but a GSP and one that is getting what she wants (attention) in any way she can. Until they are both fairly good with the concepts you are needing around the house, adding them together is extra distraction for both. Actually quite like my son and another boy in school one is rowdy and one is able to have self control alone, but with the added rowdy friend it rolls down hill fast!
Can you keep them apart and take turns with house time until the female is behaving fairly well, and then let them play together in the yard for fun time without your direct intervention, only supervision, for a while every day?

I guess I would have to know more about your day to day situation. do they get walked right away? get fed breakfast inside? crated inside or kenneled outside when no one is home? how much excersize and what type, etc...

What type of behaviors do you expect from your dogs, where is each dog falling short? Each dog and each behavior is a different concern. They can be added together as a team as they get better with behavior as individuals. It is really much harder to train two at once and I often tell people not to buy two puppies. GSP's are just puppy like for a long long time sometimes :roll: and calm attentive focus is not always their strongest virtue... however doing something active with passion and drive IS and perhaps your female need more of an active job that gets rewarded... like agility or fly ball, if you do not hunt.

[subatomicstang]

They both sleep inside in their own crates. They only get free roam of the house transitting to their Room and outside. They are fed out on the back patio seperately. That is where one of her annoying habbits lays. She gets so wound up whil the food is being readied. She does donuts whines and bounces off the door erratically. Only way she doesn't is if someone is out with her repremanding her. They eat then they run free. We have 3 acres fenced and lots of birds they chase and what not. There are plenty of toys and things. There is a 6x12ft kennel outside where they go if there are zero people home. But that's not real often. maybe 1 & 2 hours a day. They raise heck all day with each other swim in the pond etc..... they don't get formally walked outside of the 3 acres everyday unless im home on my week off. 530 pm they eat again on the patio where the same thing happens. I always make them stay while I put the bowls down then release them with ok. my youngest is 100 perc on that while she is so worked up and doesn't listen unless you yell. I don't get that. She appears very submissive yet the most stubborn of all. even with simple commands like sit. you have to yell! I've tried just grabbing her ear and adding a a little pinch if she didn't heed the command but its like she is just dumb as rocks. Its quite frustrating! day to day you can expect her to put her paw up on you or push her nose under your hand to gain attention. If you ignore it she does it harder. unless everyone just gets up and moves on out of her space she will not back off. Even in repremand if you get firm speaking she just creeps down and pushes into us anyways. So wether it positive or negative she needs the attention. when they are in the outside kennel she whines non stop while he lays there. lord forbid if you take him out to work and she is in the kennel alone its even 10 times worse! just very very stubborn. yeah forget trying to work with them both its very distracting and their both trying to nose the other one out for the attention.

[Ridge-Point]

Get a bark collar. Let her wear it for a few weeks in her kennel before you ever turn it on. Don't yell at her for barking, don't say anything, put her in her kennel and let the collar do the work.

The dog should respect your personal space. What happens when a pup annoys an old grumpy bitch? She snaps at him, get out of my space! You need to do the same, she pushes her head on your hand, you pop her. I am not saying hit her, pop her with your palm. It doesn't hurt, but it doesnt feel good. Don't say anything to her, don't give her attention, just pop her and then go about your business. You don't even have to look in her direction. When she is jumping all over you, push her away. Don't tolerate it ever. Don't say anything to her, just push her away. If she is relentless, add a little pop to it. You don't want the dog to feel like you hit her, you want her to feel like she ran into you. Don't act like you are angry with her, and don't give extra attention when she is doing something wrong, just correct the mistake and move along with what you were doing. If she is just flat out off the wall bonkers, grab her, put her on her back and hold her there until she submits. Then praise her when she relaxes.

On top of that, you need to find time to reward good behavior. You should be always looking for a chance to give her attention when she is being good.

As far as the sitting, you shouldn't have to yell at her. Ask her to sit, if she does not sit then correct her (push her butt on the ground). She is testing you, (I bet I won't have to sit until you yell at me, yep I was right again). No, you have to sit when I ask you, not when I yell. You must be consistant.

Always think about what you are rewarding. If the dog is going crazy on the porch and then you feed her, you have just rewarded the dog for acting like an idiot. Ready the food, if she is acting up then put the food on top of the fridge, then wait for her to calm down, whether that be in 10 min or after she falls asleep.

Whenever I have had trouble with a training situation I always ask myself these questions. Have I taught the dog want I want him to do? Do I have a means of rewarding the right thing, and correcting the wrong thing? Have I been consistent? If I can't honestly answer YES to all those questions, then I am the one at fault, not the dog.

[Kiki's Mom]

Ok I read a little different spin on things. The girl is the rescue so she came with "issues" mild as they be...mild to some and totally frusterating for you. She is an attention "beep" because she is not getting what she needs to feel fulfilled, which in this case is more structure and more of your one on one attention. Having said this bear in mind the girls are manipulative and cunning and they ALWAYS find a way to get what they want

If the spinning whining and jumping around drives you nuts at feeding time, feed her in her crate. Spend this time with your boy working on the "whoa" to the food dish etc...on a one on one level. Do your yard work with each of them ONE On ONE for now and put the Girly in the house in her crate where she can't see or hear you until you are ready to work with her.

The girl needs to put into a routine of obedience, time spent with you, and basically more structure then just feeding time on the deck and free range of 3 acres with the pup. Your frusteration is not unusual but neither is her behavior given the situation. GSPs need LOTS of human attention, nature of the beast
If you can afford it, perhaps sending her out to a trainer for a couple of months might not be a bad idea given your work schedule......it will put manners on her and give you a reasonable guideline of expectation rather then having to start from scratch with her.

[subatomicstang]

I definetely will assume this responsibility! I dont nearly work on her one on one enough. And i never even thought of putting her up inside in her crate. I just feel like she should learn to be at least somewhat quiet in the kennel like he is, when im working with her. I can definetely see that she is stubborn and tests us. I hate having to yell and push her butt down when i know she knows. She does get the little swat when she gets nosy into our biz, but the thing is she just ducks and sneaks on in. She will roll over submissevely in a heart beat and lay there seems like she is actually enjoying interaction. she is just quite a bit harder in training that he has been i guess mostly because we've had him since he was a little one. And starting an older dog has been tough for us. They have both been on birds and to hunt tests and she is a super stylish pointer, and just driven to hunt! So much no mole stands a chance! Unfortunately she digs tunnels ! Her front paws are all beat up from doing it. Shes very strange to me she is so wound up outside, and then if i were to bring her in she can be a lap dog, obviously becaue she is smitten with the attention. The youngest one i say pup hes 2 in july, he cant stand still inside he can hardly sit still outside he is 110% go. Hes a bull in a china shop lol. I wish i could bring them in the other parts of the house, but theres just to much distraction and 5 cats. My wife has been wanting a bark collar that sensivity can be adjusted so the massive whining can be corrected consistantly. I guess i may give that a shot, i just ddont want to make her issues worse.

[subatomicstang]

Live update. She is in the Kennel barking and bouncing off the walls and doing 360's and i refuse to let her out or feed her til she calms down. Once the younger did his normal sit quietly and wait at the gate i let him out and fed him. WOndering how long she can go at this.

[mountaindogs]

A while, in my experience. For all those that say females are calmer and easier to train - I wish they would read this

No, I know there is alot more to it.

I too, would not be afraid to use a bark collar. I like that it does not have anything to do with me. It will not fix the whining though.

[subatomicstang]

Everytime she seems to quiet down, i head outside, and she starts right away! Im lost! I guess she will get it eventually?

[subatomicstang]

This is subatomicstang's wife.

All of the above things (popping her, ignoring her, working her, putting her in her crate, not feeding, giving praise to good behavior) ALL of these things are done constantly and it has made no effect on her. I have to work with the dogs the most because I am home with a normal M-Th work week.

When she came to us, she was basically like she is now, but less confident. I figured she was handled harshly as you can just look hard at her and she ducks and crouches her hind end and will even yelp like you hit her sometimes. I have put the e-collar on to try to correct the unwanted behavior (doing it from upstairs looking out the window where she has no idea who was doing the collar) and you can just put it on a beep and if she hears that beep, shes in a totally submissive and freaked out position, wont move, wont listen, wont do anything. She completely and utterly shuts down and you cant even get her to do anything to give a positive reward.

Ive spent days and hours working with her on just basic obediance such as sit or kennel, etc. For instance, with the sit command, I follow the whole "ask to sit. show how to sit. wash repeat." Basically, she understands what sit means. I for one will no longer put her in the sit position with my hands as she takes even touching her with your finger as a reward and then if you touch her to place her into a sit, BAM, you just rewarded her for not sitting. I also have used just a regular collar and leash for corrections and also a choke chain. And Im not kidding you, I have to correct as hard as I do when my horses are being dangerous on the lead line. A VERY hard pop to get ANY response from her. Its like, the harder you are, the more she listens.

Since I am home more than my husband, she understands that I mean business. I also take more of a no BS approach to training, be it my horses or my dogs and leave the human emotions out of it. I am more firm than my husband. Its just not his personality. I can go to the dog and tell her SIT in a firm (not yelling) voice and just look at her in a very dominant way, and she sits. DOWN was also a very difficult command. I know a lot of hunting people do not worry with commands like sit and esp down, but I am not a hunter and I expect my dogs, hunting or not, to know basic commands like sit, down, come, stay (whoa in their case), and leave it. She would do the down only after a very hard correction with the leash. Then maybe once she would do it after I told her with no correction and of course I make a big deal about the whole issue and of course once the petting and starts, she gets very happy and stops tucking her tail etc. Then after that, I ask for the down again, and its like in one ear out the other. Then I have to go through the whol ething again with a very firm correction, etc etc etc. I can now 80% of the time tell her down without a leash or anything and she will do it. My husband tries, and even tries with a firm voice, and all she does is scoot closer to him, invades his space, etc.

As far as the barking and whining, I have the opinion that she does it and doesnt even realize shes doing it. Like a mental person in a hospital who just hums or talks to themselves and isnt aware that they are doing it. She will be laying either in the kennel or the crate, heck, she can just be standing next to the fence looking at the horses or just standing quietly in the yard, and shes just whining and whining and whing. Its effing nuts.

We have used the water spray technique. It took one spray of the water gun and shes a perfect angel. Funny how she can magically control herself when you have something like that but all of a sudden "is so energetic" that she cant listen. I dont buy it. She is NOT a mean dog. She doesnt bite, Not food aggressive. Fine with other dogs (speaking of other dogs, I cant even take her on errons with me or to my horse shows because if she sees another dog, she starts going flipping crazy, bouncing jumping barking wildly, whining, etc and no amount of correction will get her to stop. And heavens if you firmly correct your dog with judging eyes watching.. .thats another story). My friends bring their dogs over and they all play great. When you put her on the leash, she heels great, stops when you stop, etc. But again, your hand is touching that leash which is touching her. In her mind, that is exactly what she wants. And if shes in the kennel or even her crate, shes giving your the middle paw if she is told to do something because she knows you dont have any way to enforce it, unless you have the water gun, etc.

I am personally at my wits end with this dog. I am all for ignoring her, not feeding her until shes calm, not letting her out of the kennel until shes under control. But the only way to achieve this with this dog is with using very firm and harsh words/training/etc. And then, that puts me in a bad mood. If I have a dog, I want to enjoy it being around, I dont awnt to have to yell at it and ignore it all the time. Our male, whos about to be 2, I enjoy him. He listens. Is he perfect? Heck no. But he tries his heart out for you and listens.

I have said many times that I think we need to contact the rescue and let them know this is not working out. Heck shes basically had almost 2 years of foster care, basically. I think that if she was homed with either someone who had her as the only dog or with someone who had a person home 24/7 with the time to devote to her, she would be amazing.

Out in the hunt tests and all, shes great. On fire, very birdy, very staunch. But its all for her. Shes not hunting to hunt with us. Shes not pointing the bird for us. Shes doing it for herself. I guess that came about when she was roaming the streets for however long. My husband and I have both made the comment that we do not think she accidently ran away while hunting or something like that. We believe she was dumped due to her issues.

I know thats a lot and trust me, thats not even half of it. I would love to do agility with her but she will not listen. If I cant even get a sit or a down without yelling, etc how am I going to get her to go through tunnels and over jumps? She will not fetch or go after toys, etc. The only thing she does is go after our male when he is playing with us, grabbing at his ears and neck, growling, going after him (in a rough play not in an aggressive way). She is VERY vocal while playing. I mean it sounds like they are killing each other. He was not a vocal dog until we got her. Ugh... I am going to stop typing now but there is so much more I could go into.

[Ridge-Point]

She sounds pretty bad. I worked with a dog once that was probably 1/8 as bad as you describe her, and it took some serious commitment to turn that dog around. She did come around, but was never "normal".

I do think a bark collar will help with the kennel manners. My dogtra yapper stopper will take care of some of the louder whining, but not all of it. It can really calm a dog down if they wear it enough. Who knows how much it will help her, but it is worth a try.

I would suggest putting her on a chain gang or a stakeout with a bark collar on. You might even feed her there because the collar will fix the barking. Jumping around going crazy on a stakeout line won't feel good on her neck. I love my chaing gang because it pretty much takes me out of the picture, and it can really calm a dog down especially in combo with a bark collar. Again, she sounds relentless, so who knows if she will ever submit to it.

I remember a long time ago watching retriever training video where the trainer used a heal stick for sit and down correction. If you have one of those fiberglass horse sticks, you might give that a try for sit reinforcement. I can see her ducking and dodging it though, so you would have to be on your toes. Honestly the e-collar is probably the better option, but you already said she tends to shut down when you use it.

Honestly after reading your post, it sounds like you know exactly what to do. Horse trainers are the best, they don't put up with garbage, because you have to train that way for safety. The only hole I see in it is you both have to be that way. You gotta be on the same page, or she will always know which person to go to and you will be fighting a losing battle.

The last thing I can think of for now is Force Fetch training. It's so structured that it may be just the thing for a dog like this. There was a thread on here a bit ago about how smart are dogs? Try to train a dog like this and you will realize how smart they can be in their own way. This is the type of dog that trains you to do what she wants! The funny thing is she would score terrible on a dog intelligence test, go figure.

[LoveMyGSPs]

This is stang's wife on my own name now.

Yes, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I have used a dressage whip (similar concept to what you mentioned) and she acts like you are killing her. Seriously, you can look at her mean and shes let out a HUGE yelp like you are beating the chit out of her. Even a little pop for invading my space makes her just howl like she has been run over and is dying. It is more embarrassing than anything only because as an outsider, people WILL think I am hurting her and I dont want anyone to 1) think that about me and 2) call animal control/etc.

We do have stakes but havent used them since the last hunt test last year in Feb. We can try them again.

Heres a question though:

She does not wear a collar right now because our male will grab ahold of it and drag her around the yard and totally tear it up. Leather, nylon, doesnt matter. My concern with the bark collar is that he will chew on it either make it loose and not effective or just totally off. We have tried bitter spray and all that - doesnt matter. Hes a machine when it comes to that. I was thinking of a metal collar but chokers are bad news to leave on unattended. Heck, he would probably like chewing on the metal knowing him.

At this point, keeping them totally seperate is not in the cards during the work week. So I need something that will work while they are together.

My other thought was to get 2 bark collars that you can make both really sensitive. When they wrestle and he grabs her collar, they are growling and barking and yelping and just making a fuss. My hope would be that his collar would shock him when he goes to grab it and starts barking and then also hers would kick in b/c I can 100% say she will be growling and raising heck at the same time. What do you think?

Hubby spent some time tonight just reading around online and read the same things I had been saying - dont let the male lean against you. It may look cute and like they are showing affection but dogs dont think like that. Hes claiming whoever he leans on and is saying basically "Youre my bitch" My biggest thing with the 2 y/o male is that you cannot walk or sit without him coming over and shoving his nose into anything and everything you have - bags, purse, boxes, whatever. I personally pop him when he gets into my space but again, hubby saw that as him being happy to greet him. Yes, hes happy to see you however the whole invading the space is showing he doesnt respect us. It is esp annoying when I have on clean clothes or heading to work and hes had his nose in the water bowl or the pond or mud and gets it EVERYWHERE.

Thanks for the help. Keep it coming.

OH and a question on the force fetching. Ive watched it on some videos. Do you think doing something like that with a dog who overly dramatizes any reprimend you give and anything physical you do other than petting? I mean yes, I can grab her ear and make her yelp and shove something in her mouth but just like with the e collar, she just then curls up into a ball and tucks her butt under, etc. Im willing to try it but just wondering how it would work with her personality.

BTW also, if shes doing something bad, like chasing the horses or digging and I catch her, I can say in a mean voice "HOPE! Get over here!!!" and she will come to me but starts that like half sitting/crawling deal with her tail tucked and butt near the ground. She will also sometimes lay down and roll over, all very submissive movements in my book. Whats the deal with this? She is so stubborn and demanding and then you see her do that and its like what the eff man? In more or less words. lol

[Ridge-Point]

Your husband said you have a 6x12 foot kennel. If I were you I would add partition with a door right in the middle and make 2 6x6 kennels. I don't know if she is a climber, but if you take her buddie away you might need to add a roof, and hopefully she can't dig through the floor. 6 feet isn't alot of room, but it's enough. Seems to me when they get to spend so much time running free on 3 acres with a pond (lucky dogs!) asking them to spend a little time in a small kennel each day isn't too much to ask for.

Honestly, if they are really vocal while play fighting I would not put a bark collar on them when they are together with no supervision. You could end up with a bloody mess. When dog play fights get a little rough and you add a pain element you are asking for a full blown brawl.

I am not a force fetch expert, there are some people on here that are masters of it. I have always tried to bring my dogs along naturally, just so I know how much natural retrieve they have in them. It's very doable, but working with a pro is a good idea. She is probably not a dog you want to start on FF if you have no experiance, but I am sure there are some great pro's out there that could get her through it. You probably could too, just do some serious research and know what you are doing before you start. The thing with the force fetch table is she cannot escape, she has her head held up with a chain and her waist tight in with a rope. How is she gonna get out of that situation? You need a well built table though and most pro tainers have a good FF table.

As far as the submissive thing, it's hard to say without seeing her do that. I would tend to think she is just avoiding preasure. Soft and stubborn, not a fun combination.

[LoveMyGSPs]

Yup. You said it. Soft and stubborn. Gah!

I think we will wait on the FF thing. If we are upstairs in the game room where their crates are, she will throw her stuffed octopus or basically anything you throw and she will play with it and bring it to you. She does have a VERY soft mouth and immediately lets go of anything you get from her. I didnt work on that with her. She came like that.

She jumps around like crazy and barks and whines and goes bonkers vocally if she is in the kennel when we work with the other dog. She does dig but not to get out of the kennel. She digs to go after moles and what not. It just becomes more of a distraction for the other dog but I guess if we put the bark collar on her and then put her in the kennel, that would be good.

Well we have some homework. And Ill try to video her whole posturing thing she does. I said that last night to hubby as it is hard to describe how she acts.

[subatomicstang]

I purchased the sportdog bark collar with 6 levels of stim, that increase automatically as the dog continues to bark, well i got to use it today for the first time. With Hope in her the Kennel, i latched onto the other one and headed out for a walk. Well i then hear the most blood curdling yelping and barking WOW! I cant even explain it. I was looking around waiting for Animal rights activists to come after me. Im still waiting on the police to show up. Now for the help lol Is that normal? She eventually ran straight to the dog house and would not come out. I feared that she killed over! I decided to leave it as is until i finished his walk. I came back and went to the kennel to get her. She wasnt easily coaxed out of the dog house and it was more of a crawl until i got to her and praised her a little for being calm. At that point she livened up and became completely needy 3 fold! Got the leash and all on her and she did really good with the heel, sit, down stuff. So i need some advice as to when to put this bark collar on them. I know that i wont be using it when their together or running around because they play alot. I usually will need it when the other one is staked out, or in the kennel during work with the other. My thought is if i only use it while their in the kennel will they start to associate that correction with being in there? Im thinking i should just leave them out of the kennel sometimes while i head out the property with the other dog so they get the correction out there as well too while barking like maniacs. Am i heading in the right direction here? That seemed like a very tramatic bark collar experience here in the brief first time. I have an odd feeling that someone may have fried her brains out with a e collar at some point. hince the reason we stopped using ours and only needed the audible beep.

[subatomicstang]

Im reluctant to put it back on until i here someone say this is normal ....

[Ridge-Point]

I think it would have been better to let her wear the collar in her kennel for a few weeks before you switched it on. Also did you start with the lowest setting?

Yeah, I would say it's normal for a dog to be a bit shaken up the first time you put a bark collar on them. Since she is so sensative to electricty, you might want to take that collar back and exchange it for one that doesn't automatically increase in stimulation. If she stopped barking then I don't see anything wrong with the situation unless you feel she does not have the confidence to recover from the initial learning curve. You could help her out a bit by using your e-collar at first and setting to the lowest level she feels stimulation, then nicking her when she barks.

If you don't allow the dog to wear the collar before you apply stimulation, you are just asking for a collar wise dog. She will hate that collar before long, and will be afraid every time you put it on her.

[mountaindogs]

I think she reacted as I would have expected. She is used to the ecollar type stimulation and used to trying to "shut down" to get out of it. Also she has been going balistic and unchecked barking and the collar does not "give in" like a human will. Leav it on every time she is in the kennel all the time in the kennel. She will quickly get over the hiding once she realizes that it was her spazing that affects it. It will be a quick realization because it sounds like she quit barkig and carrying on pretty quickly. She got scared and screamed perhaps which made it worse, but when she hushed up it stops. She HAS to learn to problem solve and not simply react to the world. She must learn to BEHAVE to get what she wants and not just REACT and hide from anything unpleasant. I like the bark collar as it is not from a human - it is the dogs behavior that changes the collar and has little bearing whether you are around or not. The Sport dog resets every time. So if she stops barking it starts back with lowest setting with each barking "frenzy" It also gives a 2 second (?? not exactly sure how long but about this) delay so they can bark a few times and quit before getting any correction at all except tone. This is like a warning that you are doing the behavior that is not wanted. She should catch on pretty darn quickly if you keep it on her.

If you take it off and let her go crazy again, they she is going to get confused. Sometimes she is corrected for something she does not know what and sometimes not - leave it on and let the association take place, but also leave her alone as much as possible so that she has time to get used to it when she is not in her " hyper frenzy" state. At first she may associate it with you IF she barks when you are around. You might try letting the other dog eat and play near her kennel a bit when you are not out so she can see that it still works when you are NOT there also. When she is barking and if she screams or yipes make a point to ignore her entirely as if you hear nothing and have no idea what is going on. This has nothing to do with you! It's her leasson to learn.

Most FULL time kennel dogs catch on within a day or so. It might take a few if she is not in the kennel full time.

[snips]

Thats what I do not like about Sportdog...I have seen this happen too much. They keep getting shocked harder when they yelp..Ugh. Send it back and get a TT....

[CherrystoneWeims]

I recommend the TriTronics bark limiter also....