Which pup would you choose? update pg 2

vabrittfan · Post by **vabrittfan** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:04 am

I’m interested in comments/discussion about if you had to pick one of the following or if you’ve done so in the past what made you choose:

#1 really nice bitch puppy but her pedigree is lacking (seriously lacking until you get 4+ generations back)

#2 okay bitch puppy but has a really great pedigree

Keeping in mind you want the puppy to compete with and possibly breed in the future. Which is the better choice? The pup who herself is really great but has little to back it up or the pup who may not be as nice as #1 but has a really great pedigree. Obviously I’m leaving out of the discussion to wait for #3 which is a really great bitch with a really great pedigree.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:19 am

What are the dams and sires like of each litter? do they bth have what you are seeking in the dog you want to bring home?

If so both could be a good option

as for pedigrees AKC doesn't recognize American Field NSTRA or other types of venues out there and visa verse

so is it that there isn't anything on the AKC ped of all venues out there

I have seen and had some very nice pedigreed pups which were mediocre at best and have seen some nice pups from some not so known back grounds. really comes down to what people are doing with their breeding programs

There are people who think just because they have allowed dog to breed for thirty some years makes them a top breeder and do nothing but throw some pitiful dogs together

then there are some people who are just starting out but they pick the right breedings and talk to breeders and put together some very nice potentials

So I look to the breeder first then the dogs they are breeding then the nice peds are just a great frosting to hopefully a nice cake

vabrittfan · Post by **vabrittfan** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:23 am

Arlette thanks for your great comments. Regarding the pedigree these are not dogs that have won in either NSTRA or American Field. I think it is more just a case of like you said someone breeding for a number of years and they are selling mostly pets/companion hunting dogs. But they are very attractive looking compared to the other bitch pups which are a much nicer pedigree.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:35 am

When you say really nice and okay, are you referring to conformation?
If showing is what you are looking for go with the best conformation pup. If performance is what you are looking for then you need to go to the breeder that breeds for it. Performance can not be judged in a pup just out of the whelping box.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:49 am

I too am assuming that "OK" and "really great" refers to how these dogs look....and kind of wonder how your priorities are ordered. I would be looking for words like confident, outgoing, bold, super temperament to be primary...after that I would pick the strongest pedigree possible from a breeder that has similar priorities.

Study the people...not just the dogs.

vabrittfan · Post by **vabrittfan** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:58 am

I wasn't just referring only to conformation. I guess I didn't explain myself very well.

I was trying to differentiate between one pup was only okay (not just looks but overall) but had a really great pedigree while the other one was really outstanding but had a very mediocre pedigree. (no dogs to speak of that anyone would have heard of until many generations back)

Just curious if people felt the pup that was outstanding despite the poor pedigree to back it up for future breedings was a better bet than the pup that may not be as nice but had a really good pedigree and many generations of top winners to back her up. (meaning she may be more likely to pass those traits on even if she herself may not be as outstanding)

D2shorthairs · Post by **D2shorthairs** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:03 am

I would have to agree with the posts above regarding what are you judging. What age pup are you talking about? What is so outstanding with the pup you like because if it is young you are only seeing a fraction of the picture. Performance is related to conformation but also very much has to do with heart and intelligence. If a pedigree didn't contain titled dogs but you knew that for a couple generations back they were the type of dogs you want you might be ok. IMO find a good breeding and pick the pup you like and you'll have much better chance of getting a good dog than looking at a mediocre or less breeding and thinking you can pick out an exceptional pup at 8 weeks.

David

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:25 am

Pup #1-I recently had a bitch dog like this. No great names close up but i had access to accounts, pictures, and personal observation of the two or three generations without "titles". They were the type of dogs i liked so I had no issues with the lack of lineage on paper. She had an awesome nose and tons of natural ability. Now the problem is, in my opinion, even if this dog is "really nice" but you haven't had the opportunity to know the dogs behind it, then that dog and every puppy she produces will be a little of a crap shoot.

Pup #2- I have had a few dogs with "great pedigrees" that weren't good at all. Even if the pup has a great pedigree but is just "OK" I wouldn't breed it. Many will but paper doesn't make or break a dog. I've sent a few down the road in the last few years that were sired by this or that Ch. and didn't look nearly as good in the flesh as they did on paper.

If i had to chose i'd chose #1. What age is this pup? I'd buy pup #3 out of proven lines, proven dogs, and proven kennels. The best dogs i've had have been from people who knew instinctively (from years of experience) what two dogs meshed and would produce nice pups...from those litters you can reach in without looking and get a good one.JMO

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:26 am

vabrittfan wrote:Arlette thanks for your great comments. Regarding the pedigree these are not dogs that have won in either NSTRA or American Field. I think it is more just a case of like you said someone breeding for a number of years and they are selling mostly pets/companion hunting dogs. But they are very attractive looking compared to the other bitch pups which are a much nicer pedigree.

If they have been breeding for 30 years and are producing nice puppies then you have to say they know what they are doing.

knine wrote:There are people who think just because they have allowed dog to breed for thirty some years makes them a top breeder and do nothing but throw some pitiful dogs together

then there are some people who are just starting out but they pick the right breedings and talk to breeders and put together some very nice potentials

It's pretty much impossible to judge a good breeder since our judgement is so opinionated. I think what we all forget is that someone who has bred nice puppies for that long but hasn't done it like we would is not a top breeder. That's what happens to all of us. We judge according to our own standard especially when there is not a written standard to go by. And even then, many just can't follow it as they think they are doing a better job.

I think the standard you need to go by in this scenario is which one fits your needs or desires better. Just because there are not a lot of titles in a dogs pedigree that doesn't make the pup poorly bred. Pedigrees are great for dogs you haven't seen personally and they always look good when trying to sell puppies to people who haven't seen your dogs. But in my mind I would always pick the great performer over the highly pedigreed if I know the pup and the dogs it is out of. Highly pedigreed normally means the pedigree has dogs titled in the areanas you play in and not necessarily in all of the areas we should be breeding for. And since I am not buying the breeder I pay little attention as long as they are honest and reputable in there dealings with the dogs and people.

Ezzy

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:10 am

I went for one of each. Both females throw great pups.
But to answer your question. I go for the nice bitch over pedigee. If a dog doesn't have the goods, a pedigree won't help it hunt.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:15 am

Could it be that what we are saying is knowledge of the actual dogs is better than the titles/pedigrees...and knowing the breeder and his/her priorities is equally as important? Titles/scores get my interest...then I go check out the dog.

Fireside · Post by **Fireside** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:45 am

When you are breeding, every dog has "good genes" and "not so good genes". Hopefully the "not so good" ones are not apparent or hidden in places that don't matter to you, but NO DOG IS PERFECT!

If you take the two best dogs in the world (in your opinion) and breed them, maybe one might be better then it's parents, most of them will be as good as their parents and one might have gotten a preponderance of "not so good genes" and be a poor representative of the breed. The poor dog is just that... a poor dog and pedigree isn't gonna change that.

If you take two nice but non-spectacular animals and and breed them and the stars align just right for you... you might get an outstanding individual that got mostly "good genes". Getting her to produce well might be a matter of trying a couple different studs to find the one that works with her, but she has more "good genes" to pass along than the poor dog.

Go for the one that is the better dog.

D2shorthairs · Post by **D2shorthairs** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:54 am

I'm still curious what makes you think one of the pups is better than the other and what age are they? Comparing two experienced 2 year olds and their pedigrees is totally different than comparing two 8 week olds and their pedigrees.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:15 pm

With out actually seeing these pups or knowing the breeding,littermates ect.it would be hard for me to choose from the info supplied.
Lets just say this I think you should choose the litter before you choose the pup.

Again JMO!

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:34 pm

You need to be looking at the qualities,good and bad, of the grandparents and parents. Solely basing an opinion on a puppy where there are future expectations is useless. The pup with the pedigree that has been proven is usually the better bet over a pup whos pedigree is not proven. A one time wonder is not what I would be betting on if I had plans for a pup. There is no way of telling the performance ability of a puppy.Unless the breeders test their dogs in a venue that can prove ability then you are taking a chance.
If the choice was between these 2 pups I would pass. If I have to think to much then it's just not the right litter.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:56 pm

D2shorthairs wrote:I'm still curious what makes you think one of the pups is better than the other and what age are they? Comparing two experienced 2 year olds and their pedigrees is totally different than comparing two 8 week olds and their pedigrees.

I agree. What makes the one pup nice? The age of the pups is pretty key here. If they are both only weeks old you're not going to be able to judge much yet so it's a crapshoot...I would go with #2 based on the pedigree. If they are older pups, like 2 yr olds then go with the nicer one, regardless of the pedigree.

However, if I had my choice, I would choose the reputable breeder breeding competition dogs with great pedigrees. So I would choose #3.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:41 pm

better yet- maybe price shopping and toss up pup A vs pup B

put up the pedigree of the so called good breeding that you are looking at

you haven't said if these are 7 week old pups or-

could it be that you are just looking without any thought to seeing the parents

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:54 pm

Paper Doesn't Make The Dog.I've seen a few Real Good ones that had what I call Mutant pedigrees that I'd consider toilet paper.And I've seen some out of Knockout pedigrees that I wouldn't feed.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:56 pm

BoJack wrote:Paper Doesn't Make The Dog.I've seen a few Real Good ones that had what I call Mutant pedigrees that I'd consider toilet paper.And I've seen some out of Knockout pedigrees that I wouldn't feed.

yeh- well take 6 pups out of real good papered pups- then take 6 out of your so so papered pups-

we'll see who's had the nose and the drive and desire

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:24 pm

Ezzy reread my post When I refer to some breeders boasting 30 years and are breeding PITIFUL mediocre dogs thinking that just doing something for a long time makes them a top breeder I am not referring to those quality breeders who have been around and have produced quality dog for x amount of year be it 10 20 30 50 ...there is a BIG difference

vabrittfan · Post by **vabrittfan** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:54 pm

I would rather not post pedigrees. The pups are about 7-8 weeks old. Everyone brought up a lot of good points of things to consider.

Several years ago I bought a female from a breeder in WA. The parents were not titled. However, I knew the owner of the sire/dam & knew that previously they did show/trial their dogs. So the fact that they were in a different place in their lives & no longer showing/trialing didn't effect the fact that they still had nice dogs & were producing nice pups. I did have a few people question her background when she was bred though.

I agree that observing the pups/parents is ideal but I can't honestly think of an instance where I bought a puppy that this was even possible. (except for one stud fee pup I took when I bred my male many many years ago & I wanted a male & that was the only male in the litter)

I think my husband summed it up pretty well to quit wasting my time & just spend the money & get what I want. I'm just not sure completely what I want. I've been amazed at prices I'm seeing from people essentially breeding family pets with no OFA & no guarantee of any kind. Either they are charging way too much or I charged way too little when I had my pups.

I do appreciate eveyone's input and insights. It has been very helpful to me. I agree that the most important thing I think is finding the right breeder & trusting their input because they know their dogs. I know in my last litter I had 4 males that were pretty much interchangable personality wise. Main difference was 2 were orange & 2 were liver. I had a nice coupld drive down from PA to pick up their pup. They had it narrowed down to 1 of each color but could not decide. They literally stood in my yard for 2 hours & couldn't decide. They went back to their hotel & didn't know. I finally just picked a pup for them & they picked him up the next day & went home. Previous litter (same dam, different sire) I had 4 females that all had completely different personalities. A couple of them were pretty close, but not all would be suited for the same endeavors.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:35 pm

well said- 7-8 weeks it's just a guess and whatever someone feels good about

congrats to you for picking one that you thought fit the new owner- think many breeders would like to offer help as to which pup to pick

vabrittfan · Post by **vabrittfan** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:40 pm

Shadow wrote:well said- 7-8 weeks it's just a guess and whatever someone feels good about

congrats to you for picking one that you thought fit the new owner- think many breeders would like to offer help as to which pup to pick

LOL well they were very nice people but after several hours they had no clue. They liked both pups & either pup would have been a good match for their family/lifestyle. They had looked at pictures for 8 weeks & still had no idea. After they "picked" they went to the hotel & called me back again. Then they were even un-sure the next morning when they came to pick up the pup & head home. They are very happy with the puppy I picked for them & the other pup they looked at went to a great family the next day & that was also a very good match so it all worked out. So I agree the breeder is a great source of information.

A/C Guy · Post by **A/C Guy** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:30 pm

postoakshorthairs wrote:Pup #1-I recently had a bitch dog like this. No great names close up but i had access to accounts, pictures, and personal observation of the two or three generations without "titles". They were the type of dogs i liked so I had no issues with the lack of lineage on paper. She had an awesome nose and tons of natural ability. Now the problem is, in my opinion, even if this dog is "really nice" but you haven't had the opportunity to know the dogs behind it, then that dog and every puppy she produces will be a little of a crap shoot.

Pup #2- I have had a few dogs with "great pedigrees" that weren't good at all. Even if the pup has a great pedigree but is just "OK" I wouldn't breed it. Many will but paper doesn't make or break a dog. I've sent a few down the road in the last few years that were sired by this or that Ch. and didn't look nearly as good in the flesh as they did on paper.

If i had to chose i'd chose #1.

I agree 100%. The paper may help sell a dog, but it does not make the dog a good hunter; or a champion either.
A very good pup with proper handling that wins is better than the son of Buzz the Wonder Dog who can't smell the end of his nose.

D2shorthairs · Post by **D2shorthairs** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:07 pm

I think if the pups are that young I think your best option is #3, If you don't know the parents or any dogs in the pedigree then picking a good pup as a future competitor and breeding is based entirely on luck. There is too little you can tell about a pup at that age IMO and I've looked at a fair amount.

nitrex · Post by **nitrex** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:40 pm

I'd pass on both pups and find a great papered litter and then pick the pup I liked the most. I don't buy to many dogs, so when I pick, I pick the best I can get in my opinion.

Nitrex

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:34 am

Not evryone competes with thier dogs or tries to make them look better on paper. Most get pups for pets or hunting companioins or both. That could be why pup #1 lacks on pedigree. Never to late to turn that around for her if thats your interest. Will it help you sell puppies for more money, probably not now. If your main goal isn't selling puppies eventually, go with #1. If your main goal is someday, then go with #1 and get her trained up build on that ped. and find a sire of the qualities you wish to improve on and start turning that ped around. So either way I guess I'm saying go with your heart if you have that feeling that #1 is better but lacks ped. get the better dog,

BTW I am assuming "wich usually bites you in the butt" that you are interested in breeding someday because they were both bitches.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:06 am

ezzy333 wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:Ezzy reread my post When I refer to some breeders boasting 30 years and are breeding PITIFUL mediocre dogs thinking that just doing something for a long time makes them a top breeder I am not referring to those quality breeders who have been around and have produced quality dog for x amount of year be it 10 20 30 50 ...there is a BIG difference

Huh? TO ANSWER YOU

From YOUR previous post...

It's pretty much impossible to judge a good breeder since our judgement is so opinionated. I think what Knine forgot to say is that someone who has bred nice puppies for that long but hasn't done it like she would is not a top breeder. That's what happens to all of us. We judge according to our own standard especially when there is not a written standard to go by. And even then, many just can't follow it as they think they are doing a better job.

Sorry for the slight hijack Now back to topic at hand

vabrittfan · Post by **vabrittfan** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:05 pm

Just a quick update to post that I went with the often discussed option #3 for my new puppy. Sent off my non-refundable deposit last week so now just have to wait 5 more weeks for the final evaluation & to know which pup will be mine (I'm 4th pick of 8 girls).

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:49 am

Now that you've made your choice, are you going to show us the pedigree? Maybe we can start a discussion poll on which pup you will end up with.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:49 am

3Britts wrote:Now that you've made your choice, are you going to show us the pedigree? Maybe we can start a discussion poll on which pup you will end up with.

that's good- maybe even some pictures- see which one gets the most votes

vabrittfan · Post by **vabrittfan** » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:01 am

The pedigree is completely different than any that I looked at when I started looking/this discussion regarding pup #1 vs pup #2. However, the advice of waiting for the right breeder/good pedigree/well-bred pup #3 no matter what was the main point.

Here is the pedigree: http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2726

I've got 4th pick of 8 girls so I won't know who my pup is for awhile yet. They are only 3 weeks old today.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:06 am

since we don't have any pics to pick by, my choice would be female pup #7.
Dogwood Hollow's Lucky Seven

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