Closest working EPs

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:10 pm

What would be the closest working line of EPs? I understand that you can train dogs to run at any range, but I am wondering which lines are naturally the closest running?

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:47 pm

I would think some of the Cover dog trial dogs. Although, the ones I have seen are like my GSP's. But If you work in tight cover a dogs range naturally shortens.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:26 pm

Give Mike a call.

http://bodarckennel.com/Pointer%20Home/pointerhome.html

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:22 pm

Birddogz wrote:...I understand that you can train dogs to run at any range...

Unfortunately you can not push a dog out. If he ain't got it, he ain't got it

Bruce Minard has had some nice success in the Cover Dog world with some classey Elhew and Miller breedings. He would be someone to talk to http://www.hifivekennels.com/home.htm

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:30 pm

Yeah, those Miller crosses ought to be some real boot-lickers.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:35 pm

I think he is looking for line of dogs not a certain kennel. Elhews would probably be your best bet for a close working dog.

To my understanding that is what Mike has at Bo Darc Kennel. I just sold a couple of pups to an upland hunting guide who also guides fly fishing in the summer. He spends part of the year up in Montana and part of the year in Texas and Arizona and he really likes Mike's dogs. A lot of his dogs are from Bo Darc Kennels. When he came through Oklahoma and picked up his 2 pups from me he was on his way to Texas and had 14 or so dogs with him. Many of them were from Bo Darc kennel and most of them were Elhew dogs. He bought my 2 pups because they were an Elhew Miller cross.

I do not know Mike, only what was explained to me by the fella that bought pups from me but I sure would like to visit Bo Darc kennel someday if I get the chance. I have heard Mike is one of the best people in the country when it comes to genetics and knowing what lines and what particular dogs to cross to get whatever it is you are looking for.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:38 pm

Yawallac wrote:Yeah, those Miller crosses ought to be some real boot-lickers.

I knew that would tickle your fancy

I think with Bruce it is more the venue and handler rather than lines.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:53 pm

I think he is looking for line of dogs not a certain kennel.

That was pretty funny ...cuz you went right into a kennel promo! One of my biggest running dogs goes back to Mike's stuff, Bo darc Daisey Mae.

Birddogz, you're asking the wrong question. The question should be, "What line of Pointers are the most biddable?" You know, the ones that want to go with you, because all Pointer lines run.

If a 30-40 yard dog is what you are looking for there is a great new breed that everyone is all gaga over, the Pointing Lab. Or you could move up a rung to a Spinone.

(BTW, Mike is a great guy! I consider his kennel to be Fiddler, not Elhew based. Nice dogs.)

.

Rich Heaton · Post by **Rich Heaton** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:05 pm

PntrRookie wrote:Unfortunately you can not push a dog out

Personally,,, I would always rather have to push'em them pull'em. Just for internet comversation,,,, why would ya believe that?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:07 pm

Personally,,, I would always rather have to push'em them pull'em. Just for internet comversation,,,, why would ya believe that?

Rich, I've read that from you before ...and I just chuckle.

.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:12 pm

Rich-
Would you rather push a rope also? It purely cant be done. Pulling is the only way to go, otherwise you might see a pointing lab running a half mile someday!

That could work if they would actually point

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:33 pm

Yawallac wrote:
I think he is looking for line of dogs not a certain kennel.
That was pretty funny ...cuz you went right into a kennel promo! One of my biggest running dogs goes back to Mike's stuff, Bo darc Daisey Mae.

Birddogz, you're asking the wrong question. The question should be, "What line of Pointers are the most biddable?" You know, the ones that want to go with you, because all Pointer lines run.

If a 30-40 yard dog is what you are looking for there is a great new breed that everyone is all gaga over, the Pointing Lab. Or you could move up a rung to a Spinone.

(BTW, Mike is a great guy! I consider his kennel to be Fiddler, not Elhew based. Nice dogs.)

.

I don't want a 30-40 yard dog, but a 100 yard dog when phez hunting, and a 300 yard dog when sharptail/hun/quail hunting. I just can't physically get to a dog that is 1000 yards away before the birds decide to walk off. I also don't want a dog getting too far out for safety reasons. Being hit by a car, etc. As a foot hunter I don't see a big running dog as a good match for me.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:38 pm

A good well trained dog will hold at 2000 yards or 10 yards. If the dog is in the field whats the difference? You have to walk it anyways.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:39 pm

As a foot hunter I don't see a big running dog as a good match for me.

You're not listening. A big running dog is fine ...as long as you're on a horse. That same dog should also be your woodcock dog. A close working Pointer, that only hunts close, is not a good Pointer and a big running Pointer, that only runs big, is not a good Pointer either.

Forget the line, find a breeder that produces BIDDABLE Pointers. That's what you want.

.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:44 pm

Amen Ross.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:09 pm

Would you rather push a rope also? It purely cant be done. Pulling is the only way to go,

That's a great answer if all you know how to do is pull, cause, well, then you pull. Now I've noticed the guys out there that also know not only how to pull, they also know how to push and when to push - it's those SOB's with more than one tool in their toolbox that seem to do most of the winnin' - I'm listenin' to them.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:39 pm

I will never hunt on a horse. Never. I want a dog that likes to hunt close to me naturally. I don't want to end up like my friend with dogs that naturally hunt big, and have to correct them. I am asking if their is a line of Pointers that will have a naturally shorter range. I have heard you about being biddable. Is it your opinion that all Pointers run about the same? If this is the case then why do you constantly talk about certain lines having more "horsepower"? There obviously has to be some genetic involvement in range. On your web site you describe Son Sac bandit as a close working hunting dog. You also separate "hunting" dogs from "field trial" dogs. There must be a difference, or you wouldn't separate them. I would most likely by a 1 year old dog anyway, but was interested in any lines that may run a little closer.

My DD hunts at about 100 yards in the Phez CRP and 2-300 for Prairie grouse. I have never had to reel her in. I never even have to talk to her at all. She hunts in front of me, and never takes off. She naturally hunts at this range. Her litter mate hunts the exact same way. I would say that it is genetic. It is very nice to never have to say a word to a dog. Years ago I hunted with a pointer that hunted very close, and had a great drive. He was a great dog, and I wish I was still in contact with that guy. That dog was the most cooperative Pointer I have ever seen. I love the style of a Pointer, and there easy going temperaments.

Rich Heaton · Post by **Rich Heaton** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:51 pm

Yawallac wrote:Rich, I've read that from you before

Yea yea I know Ross,,,, cause I keep hearing you can't. But that's all good and well,,, I was hoping for some discussion on why,,, but if its just the way it is then it's just the way it is. I'm not out to change the world of dog training that for sure.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:18 pm

Sorry about that Yawallac. I wasn't trying to promote Bo Darc because I have no personal experience with the man, the dogs or the kennel. Just reciting what I had heard from a guide who had bought dogs from me. Seems to me like if you want a close working English Pointer though Elhew would be the way to go just in my humble opinion.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:47 pm

Seems to me like if you want a close working English Pointer though Elhew would be the way to go just in my humble opinion.

That's fine but BoDarc is NOT an Elhew kennel. And I don't care who you plug, but you should at least know what your plugging! Helllooooooo.

Now I've noticed the guys out there that also know not only how to pull, they also know how to push and when to push -

Dhhhh, that wasn't the point Doug. Rich said that he would RATHER push than pull. Any of us that trial are familiar with how to push'em. I always chuckle because Rich would RATHER push them. Helllooooooooo.

Yea yea I know Ross,,,, cause I keep hearing you can't.

I can't what? push a dog? Dude, give me a break. Helllooooooo.

.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:58 pm

I will never hunt on a horse. Never. I want a dog that likes to hunt close to me naturally. I don't want to end up like my friend with dogs that naturally hunt big, and have to correct them. I am asking if their is a line of Pointers that will have a naturally shorter range. I have heard you about being biddable. Is it your opinion that all Pointers run about the same? If this is the case then why do you constantly talk about certain lines having more "horsepower"? There obviously has to be some genetic involvement in range. On your web site you describe Son Sac bandit as a close working hunting dog. You also separate "hunting" dogs from "field trial" dogs. There must be a difference, or you wouldn't separate them. I would most likely by a 1 year old dog anyway, but was interested in any lines that may run a little closer.

Ok, let's start over. You asked what LINE, LINE, LINE. Within every LINE you have big running and closer working dogs. SO I DO NOT AGREE THAT THERE IS A CLOSE WORKING LINE ...NOT EVEN ELHEW!!!!! GET IT?

My DD hunts at about 100 yards in the Phez CRP and 2-300 for Prairie grouse. I have never had to reel her in. I never even have to talk to her at all. She hunts in front of me, and never takes off. She naturally hunts at this range. Her litter mate hunts the exact same way. I would say that it is genetic. It is very nice to never have to say a word to a dog. Years ago I hunted with a pointer that hunted very close, and had a great drive. He was a great dog, and I wish I was still in contact with that guy. That dog was the most cooperative Pointer I have ever seen. I love the style of a Pointer, and there easy going temperaments.

Did I miss something? Either get another DD or find a Pointer breeder that breeds biddable Pointers.

Did I hear an echo?

Maybe this will help. Elhew dogs are winning on the All Age circuit and Miller dogs are winning in the grouse woods. But ask anyone and they'll tell you that Elhew are close working and Miller run big.....WHOA!!

It's the breeder!! BTW, I'd recommend BoDarc!!

.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:14 pm

Mike (Bo'Darc) would also say his dogs are primarily Fiddler bred that is what he has based his kennel around, and generally they are biddable and I have seen a bunch of them.

Birddogz no matter the breed or line much of what you are going to see in range is going to be how you bring the pup along. You can make almost any dog work close no matter the breeding if you hack the dog starting when it is a pup. Are you interested in getting a pointer or just looking for discussion? Your DD sounds like a dog I would like to hunt with is there something she isnt doing?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:19 pm

dont worry about what line, just get a pup and make it range how you want.

YES! In fact, when you get your pup, put your blinders on and pretend that it's a brand new DD pup. I'm absolutely serious. Train it just like your DD, test it in NAVHDA, do everything you would do with a versatile pup ...and it won't know the difference! Trust me.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:36 pm

Wow Yawallac maybe you should sit back take a shot of Ketamine or Ace and chill. Sounds like someone is riled up. Hellllloooooo. Relax dude.

In your many years of culling dogs because they don't run big enough to make the trial team, and don't tell me you have never culled a dog because of this because I get my dogs from trialers, what line have you culled the most for not running big enough? Was it Miller, Fiddler, Elhew, Barshoe, Slate Creek Doc, Bayou Teche, Whippoorwill, etc.? I am not trying to talk down Elhews. I have one now at least until next week but the reason I am trading him for pups out of Miller/Fiddler/Whippoorwill blood is because he does not run big enough. I have often heard this was a trait of the line that they do not run as big as other lines. I am sure you are right there are big and close running dogs in all lines but overall do the Elhews run as big as the Millers or Fiddlers or Whippoorwills?

I have relatively limited experience and much of what I base my assumptions and comments on are talking to my trial friends who I would consider experts and all happen to run horseback trials rather than walking trials and own their own kennels as well as my own limited experience with pointers. I have only had pointers for about 4 years or so and before that I had setters.

Maybe Elhews should not be labeled as not running big but perhaps not running as big as some other lines. Also I have to say I completely agree with the statement about finding dogs who are biddable but perhaps that should be in addition to the range he is looking for rather than instead of it.

I apologize if what I said upset you in anyway as that was not my intention.

Rich Heaton · Post by **Rich Heaton** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:37 pm

Yawallac wrote:I can't what? push a dog? Dude, give me a break

So your saying you can push them???? Don't tell me, tell

topher40 wrote:It purely cant be done. Pulling is the only way to go

,,,, that guy.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:51 pm

ACooper wrote:Mike (Bo'Darc) would also say his dogs are primarily Fiddler bred that is what he has based his kennel around, and generally they are biddable and I have seen a bunch of them.

Birddogz no matter the breed or line much of what you are going to see in range is going to be how you bring the pup along. You can make almost any dog work close no matter the breeding if you hack the dog starting when it is a pup. Are you interested in getting a pointer or just looking for discussion? Your DD sounds like a dog I would like to hunt with is there something she isnt doing?

My DD is doing everything I want. To be honest I have never owned a pointer, and I would like to own one some day. I think the safest thing to do is buy a 1 year old that is trained already. I can't believe how cheap/reasonable they have become. I like all bird dogs, just wish I could own them all!

up-hunter · Post by **up-hunter** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:57 pm

I've been researching pointers for ever just ask ross and in my research i have talked to many of the top coverdog breeders about pointers, and one thing i get from them is if you let pointers run they will run, they are made to run and are true athletes. I've been told by every one that it's all about how you train them, because pointers all come from basically the same lines, there isn't a divide in lines like there is with setters (coverdog lines vs. horse back lines).

Also one thing i have noticed in the few trials i have watched coverdog guys seem to teach their dogs to quarter making wide casts in the woods not as forward but covering lots of ground at very fast speeds.

where the trials i've seen in the fields the dogs run more strait forward lines making their range farther to the front.

So again i think it's all about train, teach the dog to make wide casts in front of you and it will be much easier to keep up.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:19 pm

Yawallac wrote:Ok, let's start over. You asked what LINE, LINE, LINE. Within every LINE you have big running and closer working dogs. SO I DO NOT AGREE THAT THERE IS A CLOSE WORKING LINE ...NOT EVEN ELHEW!!!!! GET IT?

Did I miss something? Either get another DD or find a Pointer breeder that breeds biddable Pointers.

Guys I'm new around here and have no dog in this fight (

), but this is a "discussion forum" right? So, it's OK for a poster to ask an honest question, and just expect discussion? I guess I must be the one that missed something, because I just can't see the problem with asking an honest question about the effect of genetics on a dogs typical hunting range.

The DD's style appeals to me too, but maybe Birddogz wants to learn about dogs with tails?????

Rich Heaton · Post by **Rich Heaton** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:35 pm

To help the poor guy out that asked the original question,,,,, if I were you I would find and of course is this done by asking around on computer forums and other resources a pair of dogs that produce closer working dogs. So we don't get in the discussion of LINES we would probably all agree that there are bitches out there and stud dogs that throw alot of run in there pups. If we accept this as the truth then the opposite would be true and they have there place in the world also. If I were you,,,, I would look into some of the nstra lines and talk around, I'm sure you'll find something that works.

One of the keys to getting a dog to stretch out is the cover that you put him in,,, if I were you and wanted to have a closer working dog I would start at a young age and put him into heavy cover were he had to depend on your voice and seeing you to build his confidence and comfort range.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:37 pm

I agree find a breeder that is breeding bidable dogs. Period. My avatar pointer is HTA and Guard Rail that can ROLL. But what I love about her is that she has a ton between her ears. Treelines, woods, and the prairies can all be handled in the same day. I love handling her!

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:46 pm

AzHusker wrote:
Yawallac wrote:Ok, let's start over. You asked what LINE, LINE, LINE. Within every LINE you have big running and closer working dogs. SO I DO NOT AGREE THAT THERE IS A CLOSE WORKING LINE ...NOT EVEN ELHEW!!!!! GET IT?

Did I miss something? Either get another DD or find a Pointer breeder that breeds biddable Pointers.
Guys I'm new around here and have no dog in this fight ( ), but this is a "discussion forum" right? So, it's OK for a poster to ask an honest question, and just expect discussion? I guess I must be the one that missed something, because I just can't see the problem with asking an honest question about the effect of genetics on a dogs typical hunting range.

The DD's style appeals to me too, but maybe Birddogz wants to learn about dogs with tails?????

Thank you AZHusker. I was just curious if there were lines of pointers that hunted closer than others? Apparently that is a very upsetting topic. :roll:

Rich, thanks for the info. I guess I should ask what Studs and bitches throw close working dogs.

ROSS WHAT STUDS AND BITCHES PRODUCE CLOSE WORKING DOGS? GET IT? SHEESH!

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:56 pm

DGFavor wrote:
Would you rather push a rope also? It purely cant be done. Pulling is the only way to go,

That's a great answer if all you know how to do is pull, cause, well, then you pull. Now I've noticed the guys out there that also know not only how to pull, they also know how to push and when to push - it's those SOB's with more than one tool in their toolbox that seem to do most of the winnin' - I'm listenin' to them.

You guys always use too many words and argue. I will agree with Favor on the SOBs that win and say more with fewer words:

"Push + Pull = Handle = Win"

I also think "pull" is a jacked up term. If you understand how to handle a dog, you would use or appreciate the term "bend" over "pull" when you get them around. We are talking dogs here. Note ropes.

Rich,

I have seen you handle Ben. I think the thought you are looking for is again handle. You know you can push him out when you want with control vs the dog that runs off and you have to pull in or ask for a tracker.

Steve

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:57 pm

Rich Heaton wrote:To help the poor guy out that asked the original question,,,,, if I were you I would find and of course is this done by asking around on computer forums and other resources a pair of dogs that produce closer working dogs. So we don't get in the discussion of LINES we would probably all agree that there are bitches out there and stud dogs that throw alot of run in there pups. If we accept this as the truth then the opposite would be true and they have there place in the world also. If I were you,,,, I would look into some of the nstra lines and talk around, I'm sure you'll find something that works.

One of the keys to getting a dog to stretch out is the cover that you put him in,,, if I were you and wanted to have a closer working dog I would start at a young age and put him into heavy cover were he had to depend on your voice and seeing you to build his confidence and comfort range.

This is a well-reasoned response, IMO. The genotype of some dogs contribute to a predisposition or a tendency to run closer than the genotype of other dogs. A trainer has to bring out the expression of the genotype - the behavioral phenotype - by consistently training in conditions that require a dog to work more closely. I agree that the NSTRA style is probably a really good starting place as well.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:50 pm

up-hunter wrote:
Also one thing i have noticed in the few trials i have watched coverdog guys seem to teach their dogs to quarter making wide casts in the woods not as forward but covering lots of ground at very fast speeds.

where the trials i've seen in the fields the dogs run more strait forward lines making their range farther to the front.

So again i think it's all about train, teach the dog to make wide casts in front of you and it will be much easier to keep up.

That certainly isn't my experience. The cover dog guys Ive talked to don't like their dog to quarter. As a grouse hunter I don't want my dog to quarter. Even in heavy grouse cover there are objectives if the dog and/or the handler knows what they are doing. I've watched handlers cast dogs toward an objective that may be to the side like a creek bottom, but the handlers I talked to wouldn't cast their dog to the side only to have them quarter. I couldn't imagine a quartering grouse dog winning many trials.

I wrote on another board about how I got my setter pup out for a run in the grouse woods this afternoon and she had her best run ever. There was no quartering. She hit all the areas where grouse would be and ran past the areas they generally won't be found such as a red pine plantation or and older popple stand. This afternoon my pup ran straight through an unproductive area and at the edge of bell range she hit a nice objective and ended up pointing a grouse. Grouse trial woods I know have more objectives than the more open trial grounds I been to thus the more straight forward run in the fields. Two of the trial grounds I ran in last fall had a long hedgerow surrounded by a soybean field. The dogs, including mine who is heavy cover dog blood, ran a straight line either along side that hedgerow or like mine ran down the middle of that hedgerow. If there were objectives to the side I'm sure the dogs would have covered them. Another cover dog trial dog I walked behind at these trials ran straight through a low cut field which had no objective to a tall reed canary grass creek bottom on the other side and promptly went on point.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:28 pm

ROSS WHAT STUDS AND BITCHES PRODUCE CLOSE WORKING DOGS? GET IT? SHEESH!

Now you're getting it. You DD guys are always a bit slow.

Call some breeders and tell them what you are looking for. They will tell you if they have pups that will meet your needs. After training a DD you will be amazed at how easy Pointers are. Straight up.

Good luck.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:35 pm

Yea yea I know Ross,,,, cause I keep hearing you can't.

Rich, sorry. I misunderstood your post. "I keep hearing YOU can't."

Got it, I get it, good point.

.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:43 pm

"Push + Pull = Handle = Win"

Yah, that's what I tried to say.

Unfortunately for me the equation is "(Sideways + Backwards)/(n ripped birds x y stolen points) = Harness + Check Cord"

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:47 pm

Yawallac wrote:
ROSS WHAT STUDS AND BITCHES PRODUCE CLOSE WORKING DOGS? GET IT? SHEESH!
Now you're getting it. You DD guys are always a bit slow.

Call some breeders and tell them what you are looking for. They will tell you if they have pups that will meet your needs. After training a DD you will be amazed at how easy Pointers are. Straight up.

Good luck.

I'll tell you, I think my DD is the easiest dog I've ever trained. My Britts were more difficult. I swear my DD knows what I'm thinking before I do. One thing I have noticed about DDs is they really want to please. My Britts are very, very good hunters, and find a ton of birds, but they seem to want to show me where I need to hunt instead of me showing them. It works well in open, vast areas, but can be a pain when hunting with 4-6 other guys in a CRP field. My DD seems to know when I want her close and when I don't care. My DD was a pain in FFing, but now she fetches like a fast lab.

If a pointer is easier than her I will be so happy. Would you suggest a 1 year old started dog instead of a pup, since you would more likely know what you have? This isn't anything I am going to do now, just curious as to your thoughts.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:29 am

I am quite surprised that it hasnt been mentioned at all as of yet but there are Pointers that are bed for close working gun dogs. They are more commonly found prancing around a ring exhibiting their lack of beauty and grace and/or at a local hunt test struggling to get their Junior Hunter passes so that their pedigrees can have some sort of hunting qualification. These dogs are registered with the American Kennel Club and probably fetch a higher price than your common, run of the mill, biddable, stylish, r.u.n.n -- o.f.t Pointer

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:12 am

Would you suggest a 1 year old started dog instead of a pup, since you would more likely know what you have?

Yep, I like started pups/dogs for that reason. Prices go up as hunting season approaches, but you can generally find some great deals during the summer and there will be more inventory to choose from.

You'll really enjoy the contrast of hunting your ugly dog with a Pointer. I have a Pudelpointer and it's a lot of fun hunting them together.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:45 pm

Rich Heaton wrote:To help the poor guy out that asked the original question,,,,, if I were you I would find and of course is this done by asking around on computer forums and other resources a pair of dogs that produce closer working dogs. So we don't get in the discussion of LINES we would probably all agree that there are bitches out there and stud dogs that throw alot of run in there pups. If we accept this as the truth then the opposite would be true and they have there place in the world also. If I were you,,,, I would look into some of the nstra lines and talk around, I'm sure you'll find something that works.

One of the keys to getting a dog to stretch out is the cover that you put him in,,, if I were you and wanted to have a closer working dog I would start at a young age and put him into heavy cover were he had to depend on your voice and seeing you to build his confidence and comfort range.

It depends on what you call closer working, but in my experience successful NSTRA dogs make very nice foot hunting dogs. Please do not misunderstand this to say that they will be close working boot lickers because they will not most of the time. My NSTRA dogs wild bird hunt at a Medium range compared to horseback AA dogs (That being around 300-500 yards) but sometimes farther, with exception to one that I hunt with, and frankly we can't see him most of the time. That dog is also a 3x Champion. We just wait for the GPS to go off. We kill a lot of birds with these dogs, and what you will usually find is they don't run straight lines like horseback dogs but still cover a lot of ground. I wouldn't want a dog that runs a half mile while hunting not because I don't trust him to hold the birds, but because I don't trust the birds to hold. They have been very wild the last few years and the less time they feel the pressure of the dog pointing them, the less likely they will run off before I can get my rear over there.

FLocker · Post by **FLocker** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:12 pm

I think i got his point from reading between the lines that his DD is a perfect dog, but it keeps biting his buddies and growling at the mail man.

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:38 pm

Romeo wrote: Quote "what you will usually find is they don't run straight lines like horseback dogs but still cover a lot of ground.

From the National Bird Dog Championship's Amesian Standard...
"He must hunt the birds, and not the handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is acceptable."

Living near a hotbed of NSTRA activity and having trained and sold a few good pointers since the '60's I'll share a little secret. Most of the good pointers running in NSTRA competition over the years have been directly by or bred very close to winning horsback dogs. Forget the so-called close working lines. If you can't train your dog to work and hunt cover send him to someone that can. Heck Ferrel Miller bred dogs that would win the foot hunting competitions he originally started in so many years ago. Many of the pointers winning in championship cover dog trials go back to Herb Holmes Gunsmoke Kennels. Herb was breeding for top horseback shooting dogs. We sold him some All-Age bred Tyson females. Most of Gunsmoke pups went to foot hunters.

If bird field competition or shooting preserve shoots are your cup of tea and you can't train your pointer to handle don't blame the dog blame the handler. Send the dog to someone who knows what he's doing.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:33 pm

Tommyboy,
How many "elhew" dogs have you owned. 1? It is pretty hard to make a judgement on a line with such little experience. I've owned Miller bred dogs that didn't go anywhere. I can name you 10 elhew bred dogs off of the top of my head that can tear it up. Big running dogs!

Buy and dog you like, buy brains and you can make him a bird dog. I would take my big running dog pheasant hunting any day. Then hop on a horse and go try to win a trial.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:50 pm

gunner wrote:Romeo wrote: Quote "what you will usually find is they don't run straight lines like horseback dogs but still cover a lot of ground.

From the National Bird Dog Championship's Amesian Standard...
"He must hunt the birds, and not the handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is acceptable."

Living near a hotbed of NSTRA activity and having trained and sold a few good pointers since the '60's I'll share a little secret. Most of the good pointers running in NSTRA competition over the years have been directly by or bred very close to winning horsback dogs. Forget the so-called close working lines. If you can't train your dog to work and hunt cover send him to someone that can. Heck Ferrel Miller bred dogs that would win the foot hunting competitions he originally started in so many years ago. Many of the pointers winning in championship cover dog trials go back to Herb Holmes Gunsmoke Kennels. Herb was breeding for top horseback shooting dogs. We sold him some All-Age bred Tyson females. Most of Gunsmoke pups went to foot hunters.

If bird field competition or shooting preserve shoots are your cup of tea and you can't train your pointer to handle don't blame the dog blame the handler. Send the dog to someone who knows what he's doing.

whew- that is nicely said

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:25 pm

ElhewPointer you are right I have only owned 1 Elhew and am relatively new to English Pointers owning mostly setters in the past. As I previously stated I am gleening much of my information from people I get my dogs from whom I know and trust and are trialers/breeders/wild bird guides/kennel owners who have 20+years with pointers among other breeds and who are active and winning and successful in the trial circuit and hunting business. I do not claim to be an expert. In my experience with my Elhew pointer he is a wonderfully behaved, intelligent dog who just does not run big enough to hunt wild birds where I live on the flatlands in the Oklahoma panhandle. Since I am fairly new to pointers I trust these individuals to give me accurate information much like you probably trust the government to give you accurate information about politics

or lawyers to give you accurate information about legal issues or doctors to give you accurate info. about medical issues or mechanics to give you accurate info. about mechanical issues. If you do not know then you gleen info. from the people with experience who are successful and have bred, raised, and trained champions and winners in the industry. I am fortunate enough to know people like this and be able to purchase well bred dogs from these people at very low prices. I only have the personal experience with the 1 Elhew though who happens to be a son of Elhew Jefferson and Texas Elhew Kiwi which is not a bad Elhew dog to have experience with.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:56 pm

Here is what I "gleened" from your post. You write like a 6th grader.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:07 pm

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:37 pm

I apologize about that last edited post. I get a bit hot headed sometimes. I deal all day with convicts running their mouths and breaking up fights between drug dealers and car thieves and just don't feel like listening to it from some fella 1000 miles away. I get on here to learn and to talk about dogs and don't really want to listen to somebody insult me from South Carolina while I am in Oklahoma especially when they probably would not do it to my face. I am a pretty big guy and work in law enforcement and am working on controlling my temper a bit better so I am sorry about my last post. I edited it out and am sorry about it.

Tom

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:41 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:I apologize about that last edited post. I get a bit hot headed sometimes. I deal all day with convicts running their mouths and breaking up fights between drug dealers and car thieves and just don't feel like listening to it from some fella 1000 miles away. I get on here to learn and to talk about dogs and don't really want to listen to somebody insult me from South Carolina while I am in Oklahoma especially when they probably would not do it to my face. I am a pretty big guy and work in law enforcement and am working on controlling my temper a bit better so I am sorry about my last post. I edited it out and am sorry about it.

Tom

Stick to what you know about your dogs. Nobody will ever argue that if you frame it the right way on a BB. Once you go to a generality about blood or breed, people are going to take issue and call you on it.

CM