CH vs. RU CH

[MTO4Life]

Hi folks, quick question here.

When running at an AF championship, if warranted, they name a CH and a RU CH. If not warrented, they issue 1st through 4th (at least, that is my impression, and I could very well be wrong).

So, why do they name a CH and a RU CH? Why not call it CH and then 2nd through 4th? Aside from the 2nd best dog not making the cut to be named RU CH, I don't see the point. I'm in no way diminishing the achievement as I think it is a fantastic accomplishment, but there is only one CH, the rest placed behind it, correct? I don't know if there is history behind this, or what, and this is clearly showing my ignorance toward AF trials (I've only done AKC). Thanks.

[PkerStr8Tail]

At an AF Championship they only give a Champion and a RU Champion. Some of these trials have 80 dogs or more. Even a RU Champion is a heck of an accomplishment. I don't know the history, but my thoughts are when you look at 80 dogs there are probably going to be more than one dog that got it done, but of course there can be only one CH. So perhaps the RU is just a way of rewarding another dog with a great performance.

[MTO4Life]

Interesting. I didn't know they only gave CH and RU CH at a Championship. In that case, with so many dogs, it does make more sense...

[Yawallac]

...and only a CH shows up on a pedigree, a RU CH does not.




.

[RayGubernat]

MTO -

I believe what I am about to convey is correct and accurate. It is the way I understand it....

If, for some reason, the Champion is disqualified after the running, the RU champion may petition for the title and be awarded it. At least that is my understanding.

For example, both Ch and RU are required to have DNA on file with the FDSB, or if not, they have a certain period of time in which to submit a sample for DNA profiling. If the Ch. dog fails to have its DNA sample submitted for testing, the dog is stripped of its title.

Another example, if it is an amateur championship and it is discovered that the Ch. dog eitherdoes not have the required amateur qualifier, or that the dog's handler was in fact a professional, the dog will be stripped of the title.

In both thse cases it would be appropriate to award the Ch. title to the RU dog, since that RU dog was the best "qualified" dog.

[Wagonmaster]

In AF trials, In rare instances when the judges feel they have not seen a performance worthy of the title of Champion, the stake is converted to a regular stake and three placements (not four) are awarded. AKC does four placements for its regular stakes, AF does three.

So, for example, an AF All Age stake is run and the judges feel no dog gave an AA performance, they can convert the stake to a regular stake (not a Championship) and award 1st - 3rd.

On an American Field pedigree for a dog, there is a three number sequence, for example "28-64-594." These numbers happen to be the numbers for Ch. Dixieland's Rusty. They mean that Rusty had 28 "wins," 64 "get with wins" and those get had a total of 594 wins.

In American Field parlance, a "win" is any placement in an AF sanctioned stake. On the American Field pedigree for a dog, any "win" goes into the win number that appears on the pedigree. That would include a 1st - 3rd in a regular stake, or a Champion or RU Champion in a Championship. So to reiterate, if a stake gets converted to a regular stake and 1st through 3rd are issued, each of those dogs gets an additional "win" in its total win number that appears on the pedigree.

However, a 1st through 3rd placement does not ever result in the title "Ch." being placed on a dog's pedigree. A dog earns that title by winning Champion or RU Champion at a sanctioned Championship. For purposes of the AF pedigree, the dog earns that title only once. You may see dogs advertised for breeding as 20x Champion So & So. Well, So & So may have won 20 Championships, but on the pedigree he is simply titled Ch. So & So.

One reason why stakes are sometimes converted to regular stakes rather than simply withholding the Championship title is that there may be a purse or calcutta, and giving the placements allows the purse to be paid out even if a performance worthy of the title did not occur. In those instance, we field trialers sometimes say that the title went to the most titled dog in all of history, Champion Withheld. I think I am going to name a dog "Withheld" some day, just so he starts out with some numbers on his pedigree.

The conversion of stakes is not common on the pointer/setter circuit anymore, judges typically name the best dog as the Champion. I have seen it happen in Cover Dog trials when bird populations are really low and there are no wild bird finds.

In the NGSPA it happens a few times a year, mostly wild bird stakes where the bird population is very poor so there are no or very few wild bird finds, or stakes run in serious heat where no dog can get the job done, or other unusual conditions.

At the root of it all is the feeling that to be a Champion, a dog must not just be better than the other dogs on a given day, but it must also lay down a performance that complies with the standard that we feel a true Champion should meet.

PS Ray is correct that if the Champion is disqualified for some reason (such as lack of DNA), the RU CH moves up. Also, there are a handful of AF trials where only one title is awarded, the Ames National Championship being the one that comes to mind. There is never an RU Ch.

[MTO4Life]

However, a 1st through 3rd placement does not ever result in the title "Ch." being placed on a dog's pedigree. A dog earns that title by winning Champion or RU Champion at a sanctioned Championship.

So does this mean that if a dog were to be named RU CH at a Championship, the pedigree would show it as CH so and so? I'm just trying to make sure that I have that clear in my mind. As for the resto of your explanation... excellent. That really helped!

[friedaddy]

Hmmm... now it makes sense. I have been seeing all these CH in front of dogs names and wondering why there are so many bench champions and why people are so proud of them. AFC not AKC ... duhh. Very confusing to a newbies.

[Yawallac]

So does this mean that if a dog were to be named RU CH at a Championship, the pedigree would show it as CH so and so?

No, RU CH is not designated on a pedigree.

[ElhewPointer]

A RU Ch. will not show up on ped. but it will be under the number of wins that dog has. But sometimes when you are promoting a litter or a dog you put something like: 3xCH/2xRUCH. stating the dog has won 3 championships and 2 Ru championships to show the dog just didn't do it once in his/her life. Because on the ped. it will just say CH. xyz.

[Wagonmaster]

I put a call in to the Field on the question of whether an RU Ch. results in the title CH. on the pedigree, it was my understanding that it does and others think it does not. No, it does not result in the title RU CH. on the ped., but I don't think the FDSB cares if the Championship title was a Ch. or an RU Ch., they are both Champions. I will find out. Also, I have always been of the understanding that AF does not put the title National Champion on any pedigrees. They don't publish a set of rules that I know of, so I will ask them and let everyone know.

Neil called my attention to the fact that I contradicted myself on what happens if the Ames NC is disqualified. I don't really know, so deleted that.

Also, someone said, "AFC not AKC ... duhh." I think you meant "AF," which is the commonly used abbreviation for American Field. "AFC" to most of us means Amateur Field Champion, which is an AKC title, not an AF title. By the way, for those who don't know, the registry operated by the AF is the Field Dog Stud Book, and the ped. is technically an FDSB ped., but who's counting.

People certainly do have a right to be proud of the title CH. on a FDSB pedigree. Don't see it spoken of very often though, except in the Field itself and in breeding advertisements. Since CH is also the AKC title for a show champion, it can be confusing. Like anything else, you need to know the dog the title belongs to. There is just no question in a dog person's mind what title was owned by the likes of Pork Roll or Guard Rail.

[Neil]

John,

I don't recall an Ames National Champion ever being disqualified, I don't have any idea what would happen.

I don't remember the number, maybe 39 or even higher, but some large number of Championships are going to be voided if they don't get the DNA right. That will shake things up. It was in a recent American Field that I tossed.

Neil

[kninebirddog]

AKC is placements after so many points then you earn an FC or AFC Title

American field you have qualifying trials which you can earn placements as numbers but only when you win a Championship trial do you attain a CH before the name IE When you get a Ped with wins you will see a dog name and under it will be something like 150-18-143 this means this dog had 150 field trial placements in regular type trials and had 18 progeny and those progeny had a total of 143 field trial placements only if this dog has CH in front of the name will that indicate a Championship trial win doesn't matter how many placements you get in AF trial unless you win a championship trial you will not get a CH in front of the name it is not on a point accumulation basis like AKC is...
RU not sure but I did email to find out what status the RU has other then being 2nd palce

CH in an AKC ped is SHOW
CH on an AF/FDSB ped is a Championship win

[Wagonmaster]

I don't recall an Ames National Champion ever being disqualified, I don't have any idea what would happen.

I don't remember the number, maybe 39 or even higher, but some large number of Championships are going to be voided if they don't get the DNA right. That will shake things up. It was in a recent American Field that I tossed.

Millers Online. Yes, Bernie is on the warpath about a number of things, including having DNA on file for Championship winners. Good for him, the house needs to be clean.

[Yawallac]

I don't think the FDSB cares if the Championship title was a Ch. or an RU Ch., they are both Champions.

What? A RU CH is not a Champion ...and is not indicated anywhere on the pedigree. I have a litter of Rail Dancer pups. He was a 6x RU CH. It's not listed on my pups pedigree ...I only know he was a 6x RU Ch, because Gene told me.



.

[Neil]

John,

Miller's On Line is still shown as the National Champion for 2004, there were problems with the DNA being wrong on the Dam, but Wiggins straightened it out.

Other dogs were not allowed to run or be bred that never got the DNA right, but On Line was not one of them. I don't know of any that were striped of the title, but it looks like there will be some, maybe a lot.

Neil

[Wagonmaster]

If it was straightened out, it was not for quite awhile. I did see that he is listed as the NC on the Ames website, but that was not the case for the first year or two after his win.

[slistoe]

Funny how rumors like this can persist for so long when the correct information has been in front of the public for years and is still posted on the Field's website. It did not take them "years" to get this figured out.
From the Field web page:

DNA DOES ITS JOB

Soon after the 2004 National Championship was concluded, a rumor surfaced that the breeding of the winner, Miller’s On Line, was incorrect, misrepresented.

This soon flashed across the field trial world by word of mouth, e-mails and as a topic of computer chat room gossip.

Only one way to quell the rumor — DNA.

The rumor can now be put to rest. The sire — Miller’s White Powder — was verified by DNA. The dam — Wiggins Dash — in the test laboratory paarlence “is excluded.”

The dam’s owner directed the Field Dog Stud Book to look at another female; DNA determined that Wiggins Sammie is the dam.

While there is some satisfaction that the proper breeding of this dog and his brother, Miller’s Southern Pride, has been found, there is still serious fallout from this misrepresentation.

[Big Dave]

Even though a runner up champion gave a championship performance but wasn't the best dog that day I wonder if that is part of the reason Rail Dancer isn't in the Hall of Fame. His production record is impressive and he has several wins but never a champion.

[Yawallac]

Even though a runner up champion gave a championship performance but wasn't the best dog that day I wonder if that is part of the reason Rail Dancer isn't in the Hall of Fame. His production record is impressive and he has several wins but never a champion.

Big Dave, That's a resonable assumption considering he's produced even more winners than his HOF daddy, Guard Rail. Danny's numbers are certainly HOF worthy IMO.

Guard Rail 42-286-2703
Rail Dancer 25-308-2338 (from 2005, he's added more since)



.