Breeding...? Father X Daughter

[CherrystoneWeims]

If the breeder is unaware of the negative recessive traits that could pop up then the breeder is taking a real chance and is not acting as a responsible breeder.

You are correct here. The "Unaware" part is the female has not been with pup before. However she nor any of the siblings have any genetic issues that I have seen in any of the pups or this line. Again I am only talking about my dogs here.

Feet, bite, teeth, gait. great nose, style, very natural and easy to train.......... Now true there is a Brother to the second female that likes to jump off bridges. I call him "CAN'T GET RIGHT"

While YOUR dogs may be OK do you know their pedigrees inside out to really and truly know what hidden problems are in there?? And please don't say there aren't any because EVERY line has health issues!!

[CherrystoneWeims]

I like the thought that he'd like to have 2 to 4 pups- what are you going to do if she has 13

Unlikely doing AI.

We just had a litter of 10 with Surgical Implant and frozen semen. This same bitch had 7 pups in her first litter with Surgical Implant and frozen semen........

[TAK]

While YOUR dogs may be OK do you know their pedigrees inside out to really and truly know what hidden problems are in there?? And please don't say there aren't any because EVERY line has health issues!!

No, I don't know the entire line and of any health issues. I also can't say there are health issues either. But I can say that I have spoke with dog owners nearly 3 generations back.

One that does come to mind is that General Norman had torn a ACL. Can this be thrown in pups also? I really don't know. I am working with a reproduction vet and have also asked some of these questions.

That is my main point of putting it out here to see if anyone knows more information. I also posted the peds in hope some will come out and say when you breed this line to this line you get aggression, or you get a dog that can run but can't smell a bird that is dangling inches of the nose....

[TAK]

I like the thought that he'd like to have 2 to 4 pups- what are you going to do if she has 13

Unlikely doing AI.

We just had a litter of 10 with Surgical Implant and frozen semen. This same bitch had 7 pups in her first litter with Surgical Implant and frozen semen........

And this is possible... Anything is possible, but I am prepaired to keep every single pup. The only down fall to that is I don't want 10 of the same dogs!

I have no desire to be the grim reaper here, so that is the reason I only want a handfull of pups. Having only a few to work and see what I have is more than enough for me.

[Yawallac]

I also posted the peds in hope some will come out and say when you breed this line to this line you get aggression...

I heard that Clown had Pointer in him so that may change how some of the pedigree lines up. But you know my feelings on Pointer blood, you can't get too much of it. You are more than welcome to use one of my studs if you really want a high powered GSP!

[Shadow]

I like the thought that he'd like to have 2 to 4 pups- what are you going to do if she has 13

Well I will have to build me some more kennels! But this is an AI thing and most times litter numbers are lower. One reason I say such a small number I am not trying to sale the pups. I want to keep as many as possible and have a few select friends that will take a few each if needed.

good for you- as in all times when one wants to have a feamle and pups you want the pups spoken for before you consider a breeding

btw- sure seems smart to listen to yawallac

[adogslife]

The 3 generations you reseacrhed,have they been line bred or inbred?
It's the pairing up of undesired recessives that brings them out. If they don't pair up they don't show themselves.

[nitrex]

I also posted the peds in hope some will come out and say when you breed this line to this line you get aggression...

I heard that Clown had Pointer in him so that may change how some of the pedigree lines up. But you know my feelings on Pointer blood, you can't get too much of it. You are more than welcome to use one of my studs if you really want a high powered GSP!

As for Clown - I guess the dog that kicks butt (3x nfc++++) will always be hated!!!

I'd like to see what you get as I'm a fan of Clown. Say what you want but he was a winner and produced winners. Too bad the lossers talked trash about the dog that beat them. Pointer or not, almost every shorthair out there that's worth owning has some pointer blood somewhere. I'm not sure anyone can change the past, so move on.

Nitrex

[vzkennels]

No one ever brings up the rumor tha Bob Whele used GSPS crossed into his pointers to get biddability.Ross you heard that one I'm sure but only a rumor right?

OBTW Clown blood didn't mix well with the Dixielands Luke blood I have,don't know if it was the pointer blood or ??

[A/C Guy]

A/C this makes the 2nd time I have seen you comment on the breeding of related dogs.I take it you don't believe in LINEBREEDING?I think you said when you breed you breed to dogs that are as far related as possible in other words CROSSBREEDING?

No. They are having problems in Africa with lack of genetic diversity in lions. You only need to look at the problems they are experiencing there to realize the potential problems intentional in-breeding will cause. It is irresponsible to intentionally inbreed. We need to focus on improving and increasing genetic diversity by choosing wisely and avoiding intentional breeding of related dogs.

[A/C Guy]

Years ago I did a breeding mother to son.(English Setter) Lines said to be clean. (There are no cleans line) The result was 3 pups with extra toes. 1pup no anus, 1 pup with one nostril, 1 developed HD, and 1pup was a great bird dog. Still alive at 14. $ pups culled at birth, the HD pup was put down at 6 hips were so bad. I would never go that close again.

This is a prime example of why it is WRONG to inbreed.

Thanks gpblitz for sharing this as a warning to others.

[vzkennels]

Like it has been stated before any line breeding is inbreeding & all the BREEDS were created by INBREEDING.

[Shadow]

get off your high horse a/c- linebreeding has produced some of the finest pointing dogs inthe country

oh- put up the pedigree of your Britt

[Yawallac]

This is a prime example of why it is WRONG to inbreed.

What about my Erin's kennel post? Isn't that a prime example of why it is RIGHT to inbreed? :roll:

As for Clown - I guess the dog that kicks butt (3x nfc++++) will always be hated!!!

Hey nitrex, I was just teasing about using a Pointer stud. BTW, we have two Clown bred GSPs in our kennel and I think they're great! Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

[Shadow]

best to back out of this

[nitrex]

I'd like to see what you get as I'm a fan of Clown. Say what you want but he was a winner and produced winners. Too bad the lossers talked trash about the dog that beat them. Pointer or not, almost every shorthair out there that's worth owning has some pointer blood somewhere. I'm not sure anyone can change the past, so move on.

Maybe Ross was offering one of his long tailed stud dogs. have alittle humor!!!

I put the cause I wasn't taking him too seriously!!!!! I just added a little commentary!

Nitrex

[nitrex]

This is a prime example of why it is WRONG to inbreed.

What about my Erin's kennel post? Isn't that a prime example of why it is RIGHT to inbreed? :roll:

As for Clown - I guess the dog that kicks butt (3x nfc++++) will always be hated!!!

Hey nitrex, I was just teasing about using a Pointer stud. BTW, we have two Clown bred GSPs in our kennel and I think they're great! Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

No offense!!! I love pointers and would love to have another one. I need a good stud

Nitrex

[Shadow]

ok- I've got my Shadow and his daughter Lizzi that I might breed someday - not much bad to say about two youngsters that have it all and haven't been trained from day one

[Yawallac]

Tak, If you'd like to put a nice male pup with me I'd gladly grow him out.

Here is our Jazzy, her pedigree lines up nicely, don't you think?

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1145

[Shadow]

ok- I've got my Shadow and his daughter Lizzi that I might breed someday - not much bad to say about two youngsters that have it all and haven't been trained from day one

It's the ressives and deformaties that can bite you. I'm not saying they will.

sure- I'd breed two naturals that have yet to be trained but have proven themselves on wild pheasnts at 5 months old- any day over any other breed that had to be trained

[dudleysmith]

How many dogs do you think have been bred close but different papers were put on them so no one would know????

you could breed a father/daughter and still only have a low Coi number.. How many have saw dogs with coi above 30??

[ACooper]

How many dogs do you think have been bred close but different papers were put on them so no one would know????

you could breed a father/daughter and still only have a low Coi number.. How many have saw dogs with coi above 30??

Not many in bird dogs but all the time in other breeds.

[Shadow]

How many dogs do you think have been bred close but different papers were put on them so no one would know????

geeses fella- it's called knowing your breeders- where have you been for the last 30 years

gpblitz- you ever seen two 4 month olds that could start in wild pheasants and after two months do a right fine job- pointing, holding, backing, retrieving without any formal training- they're 6 months now

[Shadow]

sure- I'd breed two naturals that have yet to be trained but have proven themselves on wild pheasnts at 5 months old- any day over any other breed that had to be trained

I'm not being a smart A@#. There your dogs. If you want to breed them , go for it.

I think you are being a ----------------------

so happens I bred my female who was a natural to my male who was a natural- and I have another two who are naturals- care to challlenge me and see if mine can't do it at 6 months

[lvrgsp]

Did'nt work for Hjalmer Olsen, Dr. Kline, Ivan Brower now did it?... They bred on Moesgaards IB so much it would make most people never want to breed. What did it produce? Look at Moesgaards Ruffy's ped, and more importantly look at what Ruffy and his siblings produced, there again they had the resources to do those breedings and cull...They did this alot. Good luck Tom.

[dudleysmith]

The pedigree link doesn't work. I am curious to check it out.

[dudleysmith]

How many generations back does it go to make a 42% coi. 5 generations or more?

[snips]

gpblitz wrote:
Years ago I did a breeding mother to son.(English Setter) Lines said to be clean. (There are no cleans line) The result was 3 pups with extra toes. 1pup no anus, 1 pup with one nostril, 1 developed HD, and 1pup was a great bird dog. Still alive at 14. $ pups culled at birth, the HD pup was put down at 6 hips were so bad. I would never go that close again.
This is a prime example of why it is WRONG to inbreed.

Thanks gpblitz for sharing this as a warning to others.

I'm not saying inbreeding is wrong. What i'm saying is it didn't work with these two. I'd never go this close again. If you chose to bred this close you have to have the stomach to cull when nessesary. Look at some of the breedings Moesgaards Ib was involved in and how well it produced. On the other hand I don't know the whole story. How many were culled.

This was exactly the experience I had Howie, backed me off too!!!!

[lvrgsp]

Chip, I'm pretty sure I know were your coming from, Please explain for everyone. thanks You can't go into that heavy of a inbreeding without facing the possability of culling. Ruffy's Coi is like 42% I don't have everything behind Ruffy so his coi would be higher.

Howie,
I am going to guess I have spent(wasted) thousands of hours just on the Moesgaard line of dogs, I have acquired alot of information on them, spent countless hours talking to sons and grandsons of the originators of the line, studied peds, looked at years of breedings written in there books...means nothing to most people but heck its an obsession of mine...
If you look at Moesgaards Coco bred to Moesgaards Angel I think that breeding produced 12 or so FC's and is probably to this day the most linebred litter ever produced...BUT they evaluated the dogs culled heavily and kept to a standard they felt was ideal....that ideal standard was IB (pronounced Eve) they were producing dogs that were true to type, a very distinct line within a breed, it did not just happen it came over years and years of selectivity, however that line of dogs produced more FC's than other in the history of the breed....(I am sure someone will check that for me.. ). Even within the Moesgaard moniker there are many of us who will tell you there are 3 different factions of the Moesgaard line with very little of todays dogs coming from the true Moesgaard line....
Where's Uncle Vern when you need him, he probably saw more true Moesgaards than many of us.
Did not mean to hi-jack your thread Tom...I wish you luck with it.

Sorry for rambling,
Chip

[dudleysmith]

When was the Ruffy dog alive ?

[lvrgsp]

Ruffy was whelped I think in 1959,1960,1961 somewhere in there I'll dig out my paperwork and check, Howie or Vern might have something on it maybe John L.
you know alot of folks say yea but those old guys did not breed papre they went and saw the dogs.. and true they may have, but I have also seen actual paperwork where they would do percent of blood on IB...not a coi but a percent of blood and keep track of there breedings that way, so the Moesgaards Coco x Moesgaards Angel breeding the pups carried something like 85 or 87% of Moesgaard IB blood, now there again they were able to see all the dogs to evaluate what traits they felt were closest to IB...

Rambling again

[briarpatch]

Check out these videos on inbreeding/pedigreed breeding mainly speaks of miniature breeds but think you'll find them interesting might show ya some traits you may find when considering doing such a close breeding I strung them togeather on a page as when put together they form one long movie
http://www.highcalibergsp.com/Breeding.html

[dudleysmith]

Ruffy was whelped I think in 1959,1960,1961 somewhere in there I'll dig out my paperwork and check, Howie or Vern might have something on it maybe John L.
you know alot of folks say yea but those old guys did not breed papre they went and saw the dogs.. and true they may have, but I have also seen actual paperwork where they would do percent of blood on IB...not a coi but a percent of blood and keep track of there breedings that way, so the Moesgaards Coco x Moesgaards Angel breeding the pups carried something like 85 or 87% of Moesgaard IB blood, now there again they were able to see all the dogs to evaluate what traits they felt were closest to IB...

Rambling again

interesting keep going

[lvrgsp]

I really don't want to Hijack Toms thread, I just wanted to show what had been done with some of the moesgaard line, they had great success with that but at what cost? That cost gave us alot of the dogs and lines we have today.
Moesgaard could have it's own thread just to much to type ...

[Greg Jennings]

Did the Moosegard line not sort of implode due to it? Perhaps that was due to it being narrow to begin with.

[Dave Quindt]

...........linebreeding has produced some of the finest pointing dogs inthe country

I want to go back and revisit this, because this is something that gets tossed around way too much IMO.

I have yet to see a litter of excellent dogs produced by breeding two closely related average or sub-par dogs. It's easy to look at a pedigree of a quality dog and conclude that the dog's success was the product of linebreeding. But the dog is more accurately the product of breeding two excellent dogs with excellent qualities; and those two dogs are each the products of the breeding of two excellent more excellent dogs, and on and on and on.

Linebreeding does not take ok dogs and make excellent pups. The reason why we have the dogs we have, and why the breeds have advanced as much as they have, is the result of breeding the best dogs to the best dogs for generation after generation after generation. While some of the best dogs we've ever had are the product of linebreeding good dogs to good dogs, many (most?) are not the product of linebreeding. All you need to do is look at the Lab FT world where there is little linebreedng to see that dog breeds can be moved forward without inbreeding strategies.

But all of these great dogs have one thing in common; they were the products of someone looking at the actual dog flesh on the ground and deciding which dogs should and should not be bred, and then which males to breed to which females. Whether you inbreed or outcross, if you can't get the "judging the dog flesh" aspect right, the rest is irrelevant. But in the era of "desk jockeys" and internet experts, and inbreeding coefficients and 10 generation pedigrees (like there's such a thing like an accurate 10 generation pedigree) and all of the other nonsense, we've done a great job convincing ourselves that what's on paper is nearly as important as the actual dog flesh.

I own a dog whose sire is the product of a full sibling breeding; a DC (and littermate to a 2x NFC) bred to a full sister. They themselves were the product of two NFC parents. There was 1 dog from the inbred litter than was anywhere close to being of breeding quality; and even that is a bit of a stretch. The stories I've heard about some of the other littermates would scare you from ever inbreeding, and I know I wasn't told all of the dirty details.

I’d like to believe we've come far enough to where every breeder doesn't need a place to dump his bone pile. But if you're going to play in the minefield, you've got to accept the chances and the severity of the risks at hand.

JMO,
Dave

[lvrgsp]

Did the Moosegard line not sort of implode due to it? Perhaps that was due to it being narrow to begin with.

I dont think it imploded Greg, I think it broke up as others started to use it for foundation stock. Your Brown-L line, Rusty Line, Moontige, Fieldacre, Southfork, Moesgarardini, Burr Oak..etc.. carried the lines forward. There was some monochrid problems surface that came forward with a few of them. The original breeding program we will probably never see another like it again, along with all the father x daughter breedings they did with IB, they evaluated and culled heavily.
The Moesgaards Dee Dee Jackson x Big Oaks Bumper was probably one of the last of the true moesgaard breedings, out of that cross there were 13 or 15 fc's out of multiple breedings dogs from that breeding went on to produce good producers as well.

JMO

[ezzy333]

It is irresponsible to intentional in-breed.

If it was not for inbreeding we would not have the breeds that we have today.

So very true. Every breed as well as every line within the breed has been developed by inbreeding. I like the father/daughter or the mother/son breeding's very much if you have quality dogs that you want to strengthen the genes in. Then outcross to a dog that helps in the weaker areas of your dogs and do the inbreeding again. It is possible as we all know that some unwanted quality could show up but that is possible even if we don't inbreed. Since all of our dogs within a breed got their start from the same parentage, every breeding you make is a inbreeding situation. I know we don't think of it that way but at the same time I hear most of you say when you cross breed you have no idea what the pups will turn out to be. That is because you actually did out cross instead of breeding within your breed.

Because of cost and speed of reproduction we have used rabbits to experiment with. The results are pretty consistent and it seems to me it should be something we follow with in other species. We get our best rabbits no matter what qualities you are breeding for by breeding mother/son or father/daughter and then taking those offspring and breeding back to the father or mother again and then outcrossing to improve what you have and do it again. You improve the quality gradually while strengthening the characteristics which leads to greater uniformity. When we talk about only getting one pup out of a litter that will perform like we want it makes the case that we need to breed for greater uniformity.

Inbreeding strengthens what you have while out breeding produces better and worse than what you have. A combination of both will strengthen as well as let you improve. Seems to me the very best way to go.

It was a different topic but this is why I would breed Trish back to Wilson to set the outstanding characteristics of that line and then find the dog that you can outcross those pups with to shore up any weaker qualities that you have. In generations to come you will end up hearing about the Wilson line of GWP's and it all started here and now.

Ezzy

[vzkennels]

Tom you started all this but it has turned into more then you ask for.It has become very interesting & a good thing.I know Clown was your almost perfect dog & I said almost because no dog is perfect.I know you are trying to get another just like him there fore this breeding plan.I say if you are willing to cull any obvious defects at birth then keep the rest untill mature & cull those if necessary GO FOR IT or you will regret it the rest of your life.GOOD LUCK Buddy I hope you get a full litter of the dogs you are looking for.

[TAK]

I like the thought that he'd like to have 2 to 4 pups- what are you going to do if she has 13

Well I will have to build me some more kennels! But this is an AI thing and most times litter numbers are lower. One reason I say such a small number I am not trying to sale the pups. I want to keep as many as possible and have a few select friends that will take a few each if needed.

good for you- as in all times when one wants to have a feamle and pups you want the pups spoken for before you consider a breeding

btw- sure seems smart to listen to yawallac

I really have no desire to sale a pup. I may give some of them away, but it would be to people such as freinds and fellow trialers. I have had dogs given to me to see what I could make out of them, good and bad. So my concern is not that I am putting out a bad pup or dog because after this thread goes cold no-one will really know unless you se me winning NFC or whatever with them.

And I don't need no stinkin Pointer in the mix! I kinda like a dog not to be able to eat a apple through a picket fence!

[TAK]

Tom you started all this but it has turned into more then you ask for.It has become very interesting & a good thing.I know Clown was your almost perfect dog & I said almost because no dog is perfect.I know you are trying to get another just like him there fore this breeding plan.I say if you are willing to cull any obvious defects at birth then keep the rest untill mature & cull those if necessary GO FOR IT or you will regret it the rest of your life.GOOD LUCK Buddy I hope you get a full litter of the dogs you are looking for.

I think it has been a good thread so far... I am getting some good information and opinions. The more I look at this the more I want to do it!
I have always been told not to breed siblings and not to breed MOTHER to SON, because more times than not you end up with crap. But I also can see such dogs that have been and have not been held back from anything.

Now your right Clown was not perfect, but his daughters are!!!!

[TAK]

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1618

This is as close as I have went... And have not had a problem that I know of. I have trained/worked with 3 of these dogs. One I understand is a Certiefied DEA drug dog.

[TAK]

A double 3-3 you shouldn't have problems. Fairly safe line breeding.

That is chinesse to me.... "Double 3-3?"

[Yawallac]

And I don't need no stinkin Pointer in the mix! I kinda like a dog not to be able to eat a apple through a picket fence!

OUCH!

[Joe Amatulli]

This is some thread, I don’t know of any father-daughter or mother-son that has really produced, most pups either went as pets or put down, and I do know of a number that have tried it with little or no success, personally although I do believe that you should always breed to improve, I morally would not do it.

Dave I have to apologize to you that was a great post and I think it should be make law that people that are thinking of breeding a liter should read your post along with the movie that Briarpatch posted. That movie is very informative, there were things in there that I suspected were happening, but was not really sure, kind of tells you something about the so called “breed standard”, if anyone hasn’t seen it I plead with you to watch it.

[TAK]

This is some thread, I don’t know of any father-daughter or mother-son that has really produced, most pups either went as pets or put down, and I do know of a number that have tried it with little or no success, personally although I do believe that you should always breed to improve, I morally would not do it.

.

I don't think I would do this but...... NFC/FCAFC Microdot Look this dogs ped up.....!

[12 Volt Man]

I think you've thought this out pretty well Tom. You'll always wonder "what if" if you don't do it. You're prepared for the possible unwanted issues. If there's a chance at recreating what you had with Clown, you need to try.

[TAK]

Check out these videos on inbreeding/pedigreed breeding mainly speaks of miniature breeds but think you'll find them interesting might show ya some traits you may find when considering doing such a close breeding I strung them togeather on a page as when put together they form one long movie
http://www.highcalibergsp.com/Breeding.html

Interesting video. they briefly dicuss inbreeding Imo but show the results. Linebreeding is a form of inbreeding. Where are the to seperated? Is it safe to continue doing breedings say a 2-3, or a 2-3-3 over the long haul of a breeding program how does it affect the breed. I find there is a sharp differance in what is produced by a 1-2 breeding (sire to daughter) vs. 2-3 (grandfather and great grandfather) are the same dog.
One on the top side of the ped, other on the bottom side of the ped. Should we be outcrossing more and linebreeding less? I don't mean inbreeding as father to daughter that's not a option with me . Been there done that. Results were horrid!!!! I got the new VHD today and there is a expanded article on inbreeding. Scanned put haven't read it. I did notice the auther would like to continue monthly on the subject. I hope he does

Now I seen your vid's..twice, but both times I can only get the picture of the Basset hounds of what they was and what they are today? I am not trying to re-event the wheel here. Now as it showed in them vid's with the wolf, I think that is more along the lines I am trying to take. Natural selecting.... Now you can't tell me that these packs are of out cross breeding. I know there is research of an alfa male breeding daughter and sons mothers over time. Again because of problems that raise because of this, the wolf can not survive to breed. Well along them lines it is that way when having to cull. Strong shall survive.
I also do not think these vids are fair to all dogs and breeders. They are very one sided as I am sure you can see, and another thing I am not a fan of the "Show" "Bench" way of thinking.
Now I am looking to get me a Wolf! Or at least one that can run like the wolf, smell like the wolf, hunt like the wolf... and wrap it in a GSP body!

[TAK]

I think you've thought this out pretty well Tom. You'll always wonder "what if" if you don't do it. You're prepared for the possible unwanted issues. If there's a chance at recreating what you had with Clown, you need to try.

Still thinkin it through..... But from what I have learned with breeding like this is you improve on the good things, and also amp the bad things to. Just have to find the bad things, and figure if they was doubled up is it worth it..... I can always find good uses for the good stuff!

Like that dog Yawallac posted on the other thread.... Whack that tail off and we are in business!

[TAK]

GPblitz.... your Heartbreaker pup is a good lookin little dude!!!!! Nice ped also..... One heck of an example of linebreeding/in-breeding don't ya say?