trying to figure out a great english setter for brother

[mmbrown]

hey everyone,
i know this is alittle premature but my little brother has a non papered english setter. he got for free from a friend of ours. he wants to find one that is papered so that he can raise pups. we will send the pup to a trainer to be professionaly trained. i would try to get him into running some walking trials. he love setters i personally am more of a shorthair guy . he is a great kid and i want to get him one for graduation even though it is 2 years away he has been talking bout it alot lately that he wants a papered pup i know papers dont find birds but he wants papers for breeding her. so if any of you on here can give me advise on where to look or lines to look for in the pedigree that would be greatly appriciated thanks everyone

matt brown

[Greg Jennings]

Papered dog bred to non-papered dog = non-papered puppies.

[ezzy333]

Don't think he meant breed to the non-paper dog.

Ezzy

[topher40]

Greg is right. If your brother wants to raise some pups then he come stay with me for 8 weeks this year, I will have 2-3 litters for him to take care of!

[Meller]

I think and hope he means get a registered female setter.

[Greg Jennings]

Don't think he meant breed to the non-paper dog.

That is a good point. I jumped to that conclusion. My bad. In case it's the right conclusion, it's also the case that the non-papered dog can't run in trials. He could get the unregistered dog into AKC hunt tests via the ILP, but it must be neutered.

[mmbrown]

just to make it all clear he is wanting a a papered female so later on he can find a papered male to breed to her he wants to raise the female as a pup and then hunt her for a few years and then breed her so that being said i hope that clears this all up sorry for the mis understanding

[PntrRookie]

...give me advise on where to look or lines to look for in the pedigree...

There are a ton of good setters out there that are competing at high levels in walking stakes. Being from regular walking, coverdog, NSTRA, etc. Here are a few "name drops" Berg Brothers, Grouse Feather, Long Gone, TerHaar, Suncayon, Hytest, Barker, Tekoa Mountain, Dale Creek, Kolter, Shady Hills, HiFive, Ecker, and the list goes on and on...Check out http://www.settersunlimited.com and the Cover Dog site http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/index.html

Interview a lot of kennels, check out there previous litters, etc. Kinda an open ended question, but fortunately there are a lot of good guys with tons of setter knowledge there. That being said, every litter is a crap shoot. BEFORE you/he even think about breeding, make SURE it is for the right reason...improve the breed! Work with the kennel you purchase your pup from when and if it comes to talks of a litter. JMO Shoot me an IM if you want anything further.

[solon]

...give me advise on where to look or lines to look for in the pedigree...

BEFORE you/he even think about breeding, make SURE it is for the right reason...improve the breed! Work with the kennel you purchase your pup from when and if it comes to talks of a litter.

Rookie is making a most important point. Not every dog, in fact most dogs, with papers are not of sufficient quality to breed. Registration doesn't confer any mark of quality, only a record of ancestry, which may or may not be accurate. In most cases, one would be better off to buy a pup from a good breeder than attempt to produce a pup for oneself out of a seriously limited selection of parent(s). The old adage: "breed the best to the best" is a good one to follow. This is not lake Wobegon, where all the pups are above average.

Solon

[ezzy333]

I somewhat agree that we need to breed the best to the best but I also know that when you have a dog that performs the way you like it that is the best even though someone else doesn't think so. If every breed regulated that only the best be bred to the best you would soon lose your breed as you know it. That is a recipe to get to a very restricted gene pool and soon the dogs will start to deteriorate due to that small pool. That has happened to a lot of animals and is still a problem with many minor breeds of dogs.

The best dogs are the ones you like and the best from my view may and probably will be different dogs from what someone else thinks. And the best dogs do not all come from field trial winners. Betterment of the breed needs to be better understood by many to include the best dogs in all venues and not just the ones we like.

If you have a dog that performs the way you like and you have a desire to breed do it. Just make sure you get the pups placed in homes that like what you produce.

Ezzy

[ElhewPointer]

I somewhat agree that we need to breed the best to the best but I also know that when you have a dog that performs the way you like it that is the best even though someone else doesn't think so. If every breed regulated that only the best be bred to the best you would soon lose your breed as you know it. That is a recipe to get to a very restricted gene pool and soon the dogs will start to deteriorate due to that small pool. That has happened to a lot of animals and is still a problem with many minor breeds of dogs.

The best dogs are the ones you like and the best from my view may and probably will be different dogs from what someone else thinks. And the best dogs do not all come from field trial winners. Betterment of the breed needs to be better understood by many to include the best dogs in all venues and not just the ones we like.

If you have a dog that performs the way you like and you have a desire to breed do it. Just make sure you get the pups placed in homes that like what you produce.

Ezzy

How many times do you think that you've said this same thing but just a little different everytime?

[PntrRookie]

If you have a dog that performs the way you like and you have a desire to breed do it.

Isn't this a bit contradictory to your statements over on the tri-color GSP thread where you want to make sure we keep the "standards of our breed" in focus...

Seems funny to me that we have all of the trial people who absolutely ignore the breed standards for size and a lot of other qualities that really make a difference to the breed...Lets at least try to be consistent in our judgement of our dogs.

If everyone bred their dog that they "liked" we would be in a world of hurt. I just spayed a setter that was not at my level to produce pups...but I like her a LOT! We need to be more selective in breeding practices rather than If you have a dog that performs the way you like and you have a desire to breed do it.

[Middlecreek]

I somewhat agree that we need to breed the best to the best but I also know that when you have a dog that performs the way you like it that is the best even though someone else doesn't think so. If every breed regulated that only the best be bred to the best you would soon lose your breed as you know it. That is a recipe to get to a very restricted gene pool and soon the dogs will start to deteriorate due to that small pool. That has happened to a lot of animals and is still a problem with many minor breeds of dogs.

The best dogs are the ones you like and the best from my view may and probably will be different dogs from what someone else thinks. And the best dogs do not all come from field trial winners. Betterment of the breed needs to be better understood by many to include the best dogs in all venues and not just the ones we like.

If you have a dog that performs the way you like and you have a desire to breed do it. Just make sure you get the pups placed in homes that like what you produce.

Ezzy

How many times do you think that you've said this same thing but just a little different everytime?

I think if we spent a little time thinking it through we could all come up with a one or two paragraph answer that we could just copy and paste to every topic regarding anything remotely related to breeding.(puppy price, should I breed, when to breed, who to breed to, etc. etc. etc.) It would be a good exercise for everyone and who knows, each of us might learn a little something doing it. (and no it will not count towards your final grade...LOL)

[Sharon]

Once you've got it right, there's no reason not to repeat it. "Only breed if you are going to BETTER the breed" - I 've heard that for many years. I haven't seen it HONESTLY put into practise very often.

[Rich Heaton]

Here are a few "name drops" Berg Brothers, Grouse Feather, Long Gone, TerHaar, Suncayon, Hytest, Barker, Tekoa Mountain, Dale Creek, Kolter, Shady Hills, HiFive, Ecker,

You didn't mention the top two setter guys in the country? Robertson Kennels and Smith Setters would be my first choice.

[Wildweeds]

I'm a setter guy,I'll just say this,don't expect that a dog bought from the big namers to be worthy of breeding just because of where they came from.I've owned a couple from a few of the mentioned big boys that were not even close to being worthy of being bred.In my opinion it is harder to find a worthy female than it is a male.I've had 6 females and while 2 of them are great hunting dogs they aren't fit for breeding in my eyes.They other 4 were just plain awful.The worst of the bunch sired by the best AA setter of the last decade as far as wins go according to many.He produced nothing of importance but slayed a bunch of big guns on the praries.

A good freind of mine went through a dozen before he came acrossed his dream dog.A couple came from big namers mentioned above.

[Dave Quindt]

You didn't mention the top two setter guys in the country? Robertson Kennels and Smith Setters would be my first choice.

How are they are any more proven than Grouse Ridge Kennels?

[Rich Heaton]

Serious Dave,,,, or you just razzin me. Nothin wrong with the Grouse Ridge line,,, but ya got to look into the Hall of Fame or the National Championship,,,, haven't seen alot of Grouse Ridge dogs there in the past few decades. Haven't seen a winning setter (major wins) without some Tekoa Mtn and Smith blood in them like in Forever. IMO, there hasn't been a more influential setter in the last 20 years than Tekoa Mountain Sunrise.

But,,,, I gather you don't share the same opinion,,, so what dog would you say has had a greater contribution to the advancement of the AA setter?

[PntrRookie]

Rich you are correct I did not mention those, but I did cover myself by saying "and the list goes on and on..." Also I personally am not as familiar with them as I am with the others.

...don't expect that a dog bought from the big namers to be worthy of breeding just because of where they came from.

I agree. I just bought one from one of the two that Rich mentioned and it was a pile. $1000 and 9 months later I sold him ($350) as a pet. No run, so-so nose, sickle tail that made me puke, no pigmentation around his eyes (very pink). Not a good example of their line.

When I see a person asking for a female so they can breed, there needs to be a lot of assistance. Those who have bred litters, put the time, money and YEARS into it, do not go about it that way. They better the breed by looking at a LOT of females so they put the odds in their favor.

[Greg Jennings]

The bottom line is that brother should raise and train current dog, compete in events and go from there.

[Grange]

Serious Dave,,,, or you just razzin me. Nothin wrong with the Grouse Ridge line,,, but ya got to look into the Hall of Fame or the National Championship,,,, haven't seen alot of Grouse Ridge dogs there in the past few decades. Haven't seen a winning setter (major wins) without some Tekoa Mtn and Smith blood in them like in Forever. IMO, there hasn't been a more influential setter in the last 20 years than Tekoa Mountain Sunrise.

But,,,, I gather you don't share the same opinion,,, so what dog would you say has had a greater contribution to the advancement of the AA setter?

I'm still fairly new to the whole pedigree and trial stuff, but does the Grouse Ridge line compete much in AA trials? I mean isn't winning certain AA trials the only way to get qualified for the National Championship. I thought they were more into the cover dog or possibly the shooting dog type trials. When I look at cover dog pedigrees it's not hard to see the influence of the Grouse Ridge line in those breedings.

[Rich Heaton]

I just bought one from one of the two that Rich mentioned and it was a pile

They other 4 were just plain awful

That's been my big reservation with going with setters,,,, its very hard to get a "perfect" one. Now I understand Perfect is in the eyes of the beholder,,, but its hard to get brains and beauty. If I was going to try,,,, I would like to see Hicks Rising Sun x a Havelock Blacksmith bitch way up close in the pedigree,,,, something along those lines and maybe some Grouse Ridge Reroy right up close,,,, but not to much of that,, but just a splash. But then again,,,, some of that Crockett's Deep Freeze stuff is pretty cool x a Smith Setter bitch.

[Wildweeds]

Rich,

Your inklings are good,Linebred sunrise stuff is not so hot in my opinion,The violent outcrosses seem to be much better.Case in point ........Havelock Blacksmith was bred to Cosmo girl,She was a Ch. the product of that mating was I Feel Free,And a slew of AKC AFC/FC's I personally seen 4 of them,3 of the 4 hold a AKC NFC title.A freind of mine had one and they said that the litter was 8 pups,out of 8,7 were trialed in horseback venues and all had placements/wins.Talk about a nick.

[Rich Heaton]

Wildweeds,,, where ya from that you got to see I Feel Free? I picked that dog up at the airport when he came to town and we had dinner for a few nights and got to hang out.

Another name that rarely gets mentioned but has some very nice dogs is John Mandell out of Galatin, Montana. His dogs are doing a real nice job these days,,, tested in AF horseback trials and the wild sharptails of Montana. Sean Kelley of Alberta CA dog, Lone Mountain Magique (sp) is from John's,,,, and she has alot of brains and beauty.

[gmanksu]

Rich,

Could you PM me John's contact info I would like to speak to him about his dogs, been watching the Lone Mt. dogs for a while in the field wondering where in the heck they were at and what the back ground on them is.

[sjkennels]

if he just wants to breed why dont he just get a female. then when ever he does decide to breed he can just pay a stud fee. that would probably be cheaper then buying another dog in the long run with food vet bill ect...

[mmbrown]

sj that is what we are looking for is a female setter pup that he can train and probalby send her to a trainer to finish her up and then run in some events down here where i live and try to get some titles on her name and then raise some pups out of her plus just for pure hunting purposes im sorry if anyone is opposed to breeding a female but i would be there to help him better the breed and improve the breed as well thanks everyone

[Greg Jennings]

What we're getting at is that you need to find a female that is worth breeding before making plans to breed. You guys will also need to gain a lot of experience along the way to know what to breed to what for what purposes.

Get a dog that is competitive in what you want to run, gain experience, then go from there.

Greg J.

[mmbrown]

greg i will not let him breed the dog just to breed the dog if i dont think she is worthy of being breed then i will not allow him to breed her but i want to find him on from a breeding that has the best potential for breeding and making a great gun dog is what im after

[Greg Jennings]

Nothing wrong with that. Just be prepared that the first might not work out. By the time you invest two or three years in a dog to find out what they're really capable of, it's really a shame if they don't work out.

It'd be ideal if you could find a female that's already proven worthy or is at least is already showing potential.

[Wildweeds]

Rich,

I never saw "I Feel Free" he is the most notable known name from that breeding,I did however see FC/NGDC whittiers Big Ben,FC/AFC/NFC Wynkier Sierra Granite,FC Phantom Flyer,And one more whose name is escaping me at the moment that won the setter nationals a few years back,All littermates of I feel free.The Phantom Flyer dog was a phenom at a very young age,under 2 years and FC titled,An accident/injury fall from rocks hobbled him up early at 5 years old,He was far better than his handler showed him,pretty rough on a good dog and it took it's toll stylewise,He won in california where the stakes can be pretty large of 25+ starters.I'm from the wet side of washington.


Mandell had the foresight to breed to a really nice dog in Murrays Rustler,An aquaintance of mine whose opinion I regard highly,had the dog underjudgement at a CH trial in California,his view was " The Rusty dog is inhibited only by his handler,very nice dog and one to keep your eye on".Sad part is that as "just a shooting dog" he went virtually unbred due to the big AA winners of the time being in the same kennel.

Wildweeds,,, where ya from that you got to see I Feel Free? I picked that dog up at the airport when he came to town and we had dinner for a few nights and got to hang out.

Another name that rarely gets mentioned but has some very nice dogs is John Mandell out of Galatin, Montana. His dogs are doing a real nice job these days,,, tested in AF horseback trials and the wild sharptails of Montana. Sean Kelley of Alberta CA dog, Lone Mountain Magique (sp) is from John's,,,, and she has alot of brains and beauty.

[DGFavor]

I gotta second John Mandel's dogs. If I was lookin' for a setter it'd be pretty hard not to talk to John and see what he had. His dogs find birds, have plenty of snort for sure and you'd be hard pressed to find prettier setters on point than his. Sean Kelly's dog from John is about as fancy as it gets on the ground.





Rusty spent a bunch of his life as "justa SD" but of course had enough game in the AA department to qualify for the Ames big show. Here's my favorite Rusty pic, well, maybe its my only Rusty pic -


A friend of mine that I've always been real impressed with his setters is Brett Rose in Malad, ID. Avid, avid wild bird guy, usually has standing orders for his pups with oodles of happy hunting owners of his pups all over the country. He's been doing a Reroy x TMS mix for the last handful of years that folks have been liking.

I have to admit the intrigue of trying to get a setter back on the steps of the big house interests me - Rich and I have talked about it - we live in a great part of the country to get a dog to be all it can be so you never know...of course, I'd have to dock it's tail.

[Rich Heaton]

Mandell had the foresight to breed to a really nice dog in Murrays Rustler,An aquaintance of mine whose opinion I regard highly,had the dog underjudgement at a CH trial in California,his view was " The Rusty dog is inhibited only by his handler,very nice dog and one to keep your eye on"

Hmmm,,,,, Not sure if John ever bred to Rusty. And pretty sure Richy has been the only one that has ever handled Rusty in California,, unless Bill Murray went down there for some Amateur stake,, then I could see Rusty being handicapped a little. Not sure if you knew but Rusty died about a year ago,,, came up real sick.

Hey Doug,,,, did ya realize that pic is getting so old that 2 of those guys are dead now. Not including Rusty

[glk7243]

Hey Doug,,,, did ya realize that pic is getting so old that 2 of those guys are dead now. Not including Rusty

Why are you guys so skinny in that pic??????????

Gary

Hey Rich, has Ben been visiting any nice ladies lately?

[up-hunter]

mmbrown i'm just going to put this out there, you might want to tell these guys what you are going to hunt and what type of trials you think you guys will get into.

Also if you planning on getting into walking trials you and your brother might want to visit with some of the AA guys and see if they have a younger dog that don't run big enough for all age trials, because alot of really nice dogs don't run big enough for all age.

I guess what i'm saying is it might be better to look for a started dog, so you guys have a better idea of what your getting.

good luck

[Rich Heaton]

Gmanksu,,,,, John's email is Sandimandell@aol.com. You should come over to Sunnyside in a couple of months and watch the trials for a couple of days.

Hey Rich, has Ben been visiting any nice ladies lately

Who cares about Ben,,, its every man for himself around here.

[BrettBryan]

I've seen 4 dogs out of Hytest Skyhawk run. I liked all 4. Windmill for a tail and they stand up on their toes on there birds. They were out of Skyhawk and some of Bill Moore's stuff. I also saw a dog out of Hytest Silverado that i liked.

I am not a setter guy. But, i have to say, i like these. Now, they are being run in NSTRA. But, they are out of an AA dog in Skyhawk.

Bill's got one out of the litter he thinks is going to go big. I think he's going to sell him to Jack Elliot.

Bill's bred to Skyhawk 3 times now. Bill usually don't sell much until they are about a year old though.

Not sure what part of the world you live in. Ray Warren runs Skyhawk and Jack Elliot own's him. He looks to be bred nice to me.

I am not a Setter person as i said, but i like these dogs I've seen.