Cold dogs

[natetnc]

I have noticed the numerous threads and post on the dangers of running dogs in warmer weather and thought with the cooler weather setting in it would be equally important to recognize the dangers of running dogs in the cold. My thought came from a nice article written in the dec 09-feb 10 of gundog magazine. The article covers everything from nuisances, such as ice in the paws, to more serious issues such as hypothermia. key points include keeping your dog hydrated (the cold air is very dry) and giving your dog the extra calories it needs to both work and stay warm (higher quanties or fat content). the article indicates gsp and ep as two of the high risk dogs as they lack the coat needed to endure the cold combined with high energy levels which burn a lot of calories they could otherwise use to keep warm. symptoms of hypothermia to watch out for, uncontrollable shivering/lethargic/stumbling.

overall i thought it was a decent article for those of us who do not have to deal with these situations very often and may be unfamiliar with symptoms or precautions. it may be worth looking at if you live in a warmer environment but plan on taking a trip somewhere a little colder.

[birddogger]

I would have to disagree that the GSP doesn't have the coat to deal with the cold. I believe, just the opposite is true. The short hair has nothing to do with it.

Charlie

[natetnc]

just putting down what is in the article, not my thoughts.

charlie.... explain, you say the opposite is true so why not give some basis for your conclusion? if the short hair has nothing to do with it then what does? the article wasn't really talking about the actual hair but double vs single coat. the reason why gsp and ep were put at the top was because typically they are really hard hunters using every bit of energy with nothing to spare, they will hunt until they crash. when you combo the single coat with no energy to spare it can lead to a risky situation. the article did say those with well conditioned dogs have a much lower risk of harm from the elements.

my personal opinion - i think the length of hair does hold some weight in maintaining body temps although it may not be a huge difference. why would short haired dogs do better in the heat if the length of hair had nothing to do with it?

[southernblues]

so having a Brittany, is that a single or double coat?

[Shadow]

I think of it as- depends on if they are standing still or moving-

[SubMariner]

I have noticed the numerous threads and post on the dangers of running dogs in warmer weather and thought with the cooler weather setting in it would be equally important to recognize the dangers of running dogs in the cold. My thought came from a nice article written in the dec 09-feb 10 of gundog magazine. The article covers everything from nuisances, such as ice in the paws, to more serious issues such as hypothermia. key points include keeping your dog hydrated (the cold air is very dry) and giving your dog the extra calories it needs to both work and stay warm (higher quanties or fat content). the article indicates gsp and ep as two of the high risk dogs as they lack the coat needed to endure the cold combined with high energy levels which burn a lot of calories they could otherwise use to keep warm. symptoms of hypothermia to watch out for, uncontrollable shivering/lethargic/stumbling.

overall i thought it was a decent article for those of us who do not have to deal with these situations very often and may be unfamiliar with symptoms or precautions. it may be worth looking at if you live in a warmer environment but plan on taking a trip somewhere a little colder.

Excellent points. Especially about the need for increased calories to keep warm for short haired dogs.

We had our GSP up in Toronto for 2 weeks around Xmas last year. Tons of snow & cold as H-E-Double-Hockey-Sticks!

Bought him a Columbia coat (which subsequently had to be sent back due to being defective... another story...) which he wore for some of the time. However, he had no problems romping in the snow for an hour or so at a time with my sister's sheltie, either.

But there was no way we were going to just leave him in the back yard for hours at a time given that he is a Florida GSP!

[birddogger]

just putting down what is in the article, not my thoughts.

charlie.... explain, you say the opposite is true so why not give some basis for your conclusion? if the short hair has nothing to do with it then what does? the article wasn't really talking about the actual hair but double vs single coat. the reason why gsp and ep were put at the top was because typically they are really hard hunters using every bit of energy with nothing to spare, they will hunt until they crash. when you combo the single coat with no energy to spare it can lead to a risky situation. the article did say those with well conditioned dogs have a much lower risk of harm from the elements.

my personal opinion - i think the length of hair does hold some weight in maintaining body temps although it may not be a huge difference. why would short haired dogs do better in the heat if the length of hair had nothing to do with it?

I have done some research on the origin of the GSP. From what I understand, the GSP has a double insulated coat and was bred to withstand cold temperatures. The length of a dog's hair has little or nothing to do with it. It is the type and thickness of the coat that matters. Also, speaking from experience, The GSP does much better in the cold than they do in the hot weather. I am not trying to sound like a no it all, but I just disagree with the statement made in the article. I have seen the opposite affect.

Charlie

[birddogger]

I would like to add one more thing. If the GSP is a house dog or lives in an area where temperatures are mild, they are not acclimated to the extreme cold and that is a different story.

Charlie

[natetnc]

after reading the section about the gsps and eps being high risk breeds again i shouldn't have made it out like they were compared to all pointing breeds. the quote "Where I've seen it most are dogs like German shorthaired pointers, English pointers, wirehairs," came from an alaskan sled-dog racer, vet, and purina scientist. he didn't let us in on what breeds he has seen endure the cold, for all we know the only other dogs he has seen in the cold have been huskies and malamutes.

[birddogger]

I do agree with the comment, as far as the EP is concened. The EP doesn't handle the cold as well as the GSP, but tolerates the heat much better than the GSP. They have two totally different types of coats. That being said, I am sure that no pointing breed would do as well as a sled dog in Alaska.

Charlie

[natetnc]

i didn't even know that the gsp was a double coated dog, i made an assumption reading the article that it wasn't. it went something like this, most members of the sporting breed do not carry the double coat like the retrievers........ in my experience gsps and eps are at risk. with those comments so close together i thought they were related, checked it out and as you said the gsps do have an undercoat.

[Mr. Crappie]

Our local vet recommended that outside dogs need to be put inside a building, such as a garage, shed or barn that is not heated too much, when the outdoor temperature is 10 degrees or less. For the last week in Missouri the temps have really been cold and I remanded my pup in a kennel crate in my garage. She really likes it too !!

[Phezman]

GSPS in America arent the DKs of Europe.
Many are more like EPs with stub tails.
They bear little resemblence to their German Counterparts, which are bigger, heavier and heavier coated dogs.
The breed has changed here, some say for the better....

Far as cold goes, our GSPs of today, are not bred for the extreme climates we are experiencing now.

With Proper Housing and Bedding ( insulated and draft proof, Food and Water, they can do fine down to 20F)
Below that, bring em in. Theyre not made for it.
Yes, they are single coated, the dogs of America. Little Fat on em, bred to run. No double coats.

Ive run Sled Dogs in BC.
Many GSPs and EPs, are cross bred to huskies and greyhounds, at least the ones I ran. The owner had over 300 dogs he raced.
The reason for the cross is that the Huskies get Too hot above 20F, but they pace themselves well.
Greyhound or saluki for top speed.
GSPs or EPs for coat, without giving up a great deal of shorter distance endurance (20-100) mile races.

[ezzy333]

The only dogs I have shown discomfort were two vizslas when it got doen to -30. One female I had to bring in but the other dogs have all done well.

Ezzy

[vzkennels]

Phezman I'm glad to know that my kennels must be full of gosts because the American GSPS can't take the cold. The fact of the matter is they spent almost a month of -20 or below in Scott kennels outside with no ill effects.I also had a female in for breeding during that time that was an inside dog that went home preganant & delivered 8 or 9 healthy pups 2 months later.She was here in the kennels for a wk of those temps.You seem to have made yourself an expert on quite a few subjects that obviously you don't know too much about.

[birddogger]

For the past week or two, our temperatures have been getting down close to zero at night. When I go out to give my dogs fresh water of a morning, they come out of their dog houses, stretching and yawning. They do not have a problem with the cold temperatures. I do make sure they have plenty of straw, water and are fed well.

Charlie

[birddoggin]

The fact of the matter is they spent almost a month of -20 or below in Scott kennels outside with no ill effects.I also had a female in for breeding during that time that was an inside dog that went home preganant & delivered 8 or 9 healthy pups 2 months later.
She was here in the kennels for a wk of those temps.

Thats interesting, as I also live in SW Ohio and the Record Low Temp for Our area is -16F
The Average January temperature is 23F and January is the Coldest month.
I saw Amelia and its 15 miles E of Cincinnati.
One month of -20F is not correct in any region of Ohio, for that matter.

I attached a weather link for you down below with facts.. I think some over exaggerate the reality but I think common sense is required.

Just because a dog can sleep outside and it not kill him, doesnt mean its a good idea. Frost bite, hypothermia can all occur.
My Wirecoated dogs handle cold, including water, much better than short coated dogs. I bring them in below 0F but they could probably handle colder. I just dont want to chance it.
Be smart people.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimat ... rom=search

[vzkennels]

Birddogin I don't know where you got your info at but maybe they don't go back that far but it has been 12 yrs or more since that happened & know it's not the norm.2 of those dogs lived to be 13 & 15 yrs old & were never brought in the house for more then a few minutes at a time.Infact if you brought them in they would be scratching at the door within a few minutes to go out.Tell me how old are you did you go through the blizzards of 77 & 78 when we lost 90 % of our quail population?

[birddoggin]

I cited my Weather source, I will do so again.

I will also cite the Record Low for all of Ohio, and its 4 hours North of you, on Lake Erie in a different weather region, Clevelands record low is -20F

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimat ... rom=search

The all-time record high in Cleveland of 104 °F (40 °C) was established on June 25, 1988, and the all-time record low of −20 °F (−29 °C) was set on January 19, 1994

Wikipedia


I lived through the blizzard of 1976, in Dayton. It was cold, but hasnt been that cold since. That was the coldest on record.
Here you go:

1977 Ohio Statewide Cold Wave

The winters 1976-77 and 1977-78 were the two coldest winters recorded in Ohio.
The winter 1976-77 was the colder of the two winters and January 1977 was the coldest month known in Ohio.
Average temperatures during December 1976 were about 7 degrees below average.
January 1977 was the coldest month with a statewide average temperature of 11.9 degrees, 17 degrees below normal. Temperatures remained below freezing through the entire month in northern Ohio.
The impacts of the cold were intensified by snowfall that was twice the average and a blizzard at the end of January.

The cold wave and high winds swept across the state at dawn.
Temperatures fell from 20 degrees, to 5 to 10 degrees below zero during the day.
High winds and blowing snow accompanied the cold wave. Winds of 35 to 45 mph, gusting to 60,

[vzkennels]

You can state your records & info all you want but I am just stating the news report at that time & I can tell you every news report give you a different TEMP.I did not say the temps were that cold in the blizzards said it was 12 yrs ago or so I did not wright it down in a record book.Was from the wk of Xmas untill the middle of Jan.I do remember every ones water froze up etc.You take care of your DOG & I will take care of my DOGS more then one.

It was colder during the yr I'm talking about then it was doing the blzzards no frozen water doing the blzzards around here.

[Ditch__Parrot]

Either way -5 to -10 with sustained winds of 35 to 45 mph gusting to 60. For a month straight. Thats still pretty cold. Whats the wind chill on a day like that? I think I'd stay inside.

[birddoggin]

You can state your records & info all you want but I am just stating the news report at that time & I can tell you every news report give you a different TEMP

Facts dont matter, I take it?

You are probably confusing Wind CHill temps with air temps, as many do.
In a dog house, there are no wind chills, especially if the house is closed over the entry and sealed tight.

You can research any record you like, the record cold for Cincinnati is -16F and for Cleveland its -20.

[vzkennels]

The FACT is my dogs were in the kennel outside with no ill effects !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your right I'm wrong that ends it. :roll:

[Ditch__Parrot]

Back on topic

I had read the same article and thought it was good. I do however agree that it was a little confusing in parts. I chalked it up to probably being written with someone unfamiliar with pointing breeds. But then I re-read it and it made more sense. If I remember right the author made the point that EP's and GSP's are more susceptable because they tend to be hard going dogs and use up the calories and energy that could be needed to keep there body temps regulated at a faster rate compared to some slower pace dogs.

Good points but I did question the logic a little. Not only are they hard charging dogs but in my opinion are high endurance dogs. Seem to always have a little more in the tank. If it takes the same calories and energy to fight off the cold as it does to hunt. Well ?????

Personally I think one of the hardest things of hunting in cold weather is getting plenty of water in my dogs. It is about the only time I ever have any trouble getting them to drink. I worry more about dehydration in cold weather than warm because of it. I've taken to baiting water with a few pieces of kibble every time we get back to the truck. Works well but I still want them drinking in the field while hunting. I always carry a bottle ( or two or three or four ). Usually they'll drink from it just fine. But go out on a 5 degree day and suddenly they don't want it. I find myself forcing it on them.

Terrain always come to mind also. I remember hunting a buffer strip a few years ago. 2 degrees wind blowing pretty hard. Pretty thick stuff. We were getting birds out of it and were having a good time. It was some pretty thick stuff though and I was sweating and Sadie was working darn hard. Well when we hit the end of it. I decided to cut across a 80 acre winter wheat field to get to the road than take the easy walk down the road back to my truck. We didn't make it 1/4 away across it when I suddenly noticed that I was walking really slow , Sadie was running circles around me and starting to slow (wtf) and suddenly I noticed it's really friggin cold out. I just stopped looked at where I parked and thought. We aint goin to make it across open ground. Turned around got back in the thick buffer strip and back tracked the way we came no problem. Terrain makes a big difference IMO. Same dog I've duck hunted with on 20 something degree days without problems. I was just sure to get her out of the water between retrieves.

[birddoggin]

Seem to always have a little more in the tank. If it takes the same calories and energy to fight off the cold as it does to hunt. Well ?????

I agree water is extremely important.

Pointers and GSPS have great endurance and can run with sled dogs, but they sure as heck cant handle the elements like them
They need shelter, warmth and cover from the wind.
They dont have the body mass or coat of other double coated or wire coated dogs.

My Point..be smart.
Cold is cold.
Mine come in when it gets below zero
Ive duck hunted with my wirehair at 2F..legit, no BS exaggeration but thats an exception
Those are dangerous temps, especially around water.

[vzkennels]

Phezman & Birddoggin HMMMM kinda think alike !!!

[birddoggin]

Ive owned one Siberian Husky, 4 German Shepherds, 4 GSPs, 1 Wirehair.
Hope that clears it up for you...

The Husky and GSDs loved the cold, Husky thrived in it, more than the GSDs, who also took cold just fine.
GSPs did ok, when running, liked indoors, miserable in reall cold.
Wirehair hates heat, loves cold..colder the better.

[vzkennels]

Hmmmmmmm makes you an exper thuh? I own more dog this minute then you have all your life.You are one of the few people in my 63 yrs that just rub me the WRONG WAY!!

[birddoggin]

VZ.....Youre good at tellin it like it aint
Like our Republicrud and DemocRat Politicians, that work for Israel.

Trialing planted chickens around spotters off horses, real good stuff, man

We can go duck & goose hunting tomorrow with my DD and your ASP, if your wittle GSP can break ice.
Hope the goose dont make her quit...



A few years ago, studies done at the National Championships at the Ames plantation proved so embarassing that they have now buried them.
They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.
Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds.'
The Brace by brace commentary from 2008 and 2009 at Ames, 30-40 % of these dogs are false pointing...unproductive.

[vzkennels]

Yeah we heard that before pezdogbirdman. Dogs out of my American GSPS have been used to retrieve waterfowl in Texas & NFC Buckvilles Maggie Mae a dog behind my breeding was used to do the same in Iowa.
OBTW IF I wanted to go duck or goose hunting I'd get a real retriever like a Lab or Chessy but in above freezing water my dogs could do the job.

[Elkhunter]

I live in UT, and we had pretty much record breaking cold spells this winter so far, single digits for alot of the nights and even below zero at times. That is without wind chill, all I know is that it was very cold. I have dog houses that have two sections, one open and the other is closed and filled with straw. My dogs dont act bothered at all. One is a GSP and the other a EP. As long as they can get out of the wind I think they are fine.

[birddogger]

Phezman & Birddoggin HMMMM kinda think alike !!!

Yeah, and pretty arrogant for a couple of new comers. :roll:

Charlie

[natetnc]

Ive owned one Siberian Husky, 4 German Shepherds, 4 GSPs, 1 Wirehair.

i own a pekingese.... well, my wife does.... but its in my house! just thought i would throw that out there.

[ezzy333]

Phezman & Birddoggin HMMMM kinda think alike !!!

Yeah, and pretty arrogant for a couple of new comers. :roll:

Charlie

Not only think alike but turned out to be alike and even better hadbeen banned before under a differnt name. For someone who thought we were all a little stupid he made a lot of effort to be part of the crowd.

End of the story for a while at least is he/they are gone again.

Ezzy

[vzkennels]

I thought so from the start.

[mountaindogs]

Back on topic I have two points to make. I have GSP's - I is Cold weather does drop the weight on the dogs very fast. Up your calories if even if they are not hunting. It's been in the low teens here, and down to 8 or 9 at night. For us that's cold. 2 is water water water. It takes water to metabolize and they are doing a lot of it just to keep their body temps up. Adding in water makes alsmost as much difference as feeding double. I feed with a few cups of warm water over their food twice a day. Works well. I'll add in olive or conola oil also.
Also NAVHDA grades coat, though I am not sure based on what. My male was dense and harsh coat ratings which is fairly rare for the breed.He has furall the way across his belly and his testicles are furry also. Maybe this is the coat diffence mentioned. I'll try to get a comparison photo for you.

[LokiandGunnar]

I know this is a different breed, but the nastier the weather, the more my lab wants to be out in it.