Not teaching "sit"??

[KarlW]

I have an eleven month GSP that doesn't know how to sit. Breeder (and a separate trainer) said they don't like to teach sit at first. That's new to me. My previous draht knew how to sit at 11 weeks! At eleven months I think it is time for a dog to know how to sit. What do you guys think?

[ACooper]

I either wouldnt teach sit or teach it after whoa breaking and the dog is broke on birds, teaching sit early COULD open a major can of worms when breaking a dog.

[Wagonmaster]

Here we go again. This is one of those issues about which there are endless arguments.

Here is the deal. The obedience oriented people like to start a dog on obedience. From my own personal observation, that includes not only those who teach or go to obedience schools with their dogs, but generally also the versatile dog people. I won't go into why I think the versatile dog people do this a fair amount because that opens yet another can of worms. But as for the obedience school people, it is generally because they know obedience and don't know the first thing about raising and training a gun dog. So they start everything with "sit."

The pointing dog trainers, including pros and experiences amateurs, universally do not teach a dog to "sit" as one of the first commands the dog learns. The reason is that "sit" becomes a safety command for the dog. The dog says to itself, essentially, "If I am confused about what I am supposed to do next, I should sit because the big guy/gal always seems to like that." So when the time comes to break the dog (meaning making it steady to wing and shot), and pressure is applied to the dog, it will "sit" when in fact one of the last things you want is for the pup to sit. You want it to stand, and to stand still in one place.

It is generally not a big deal to fix this. You can use a suitcase lead or just raise the dog's butt with your toe. Most dogs get the idea pretty fast. But when you start working with live birds, the last thing you want is for the dog to think "sit." Lots of people will argue to you that this too can be fixed, and indeed it can. But to fix it requires alot of handling of the dog (putting your hands on it) when it is around birds. And the more handling of the dog that you do, the more likely it is that you will not like the outcome of the finished, broke dog. You will not like its style - low tail - and even if it stands high when the handler approaches, the tail will drop as the handler walks past. As a judge, I absolutely hate to see that. And most experienced judges are the same way. I can't tell you how many times I have seen that in trials. A dog is doing a great job, it goes on point, as the handler walks in it just loses intensity and down goes the tail. The sure sign of an over handled, over obedienced dog.

So I, personally, never teach sit early in a dog's career.

Now, you will get people who chime in here and say "Never teach sit!!!! How can you expect a dog to be compliant and well behaved if it won't sit!!!!!!"

That is because those people translate "Don't teach sit too early" into "Don't teach sit at all."

You can sure teach sit if you want to. It is just smarter, and creates a more stylish, intense dog, to wait until after the dog is broke to teach sit.

I, personally, have no use for the command. Whoa works just fine for me. But if you need a dog to "remain by blind" you need to teach sit. Wait and do it later. After the dog is broke.

[Shadow]

Here we go again. This is one of those issues about which there are endless arguments.

Here is the deal. The obedience oriented people like to start a dog on obedience. From my own personal observation, that includes not only those who teach or go to obedience schools with their dogs, but generally also the versatile dog people. I won't go into why I think the versatile dog people do this a fair amount because that opens yet another can of worms. But as for the obedience school people, it is generally because they know obedience and don't know the first thing about raising and training a gun dog. So they start everything with "sit."

The pointing dog trainers, including pros and experiences amateurs, universally do not teach a dog to "sit" as one of the first commands the dog learns. The reason is that "sit" becomes a safety command for the dog. The dog says to itself, essentially, "If I am confused about what I am supposed to do next, I should sit because the big guy/gal always seems to like that." So when the time comes to break the dog (meaning making it steady to wing and shot), and pressure is applied to the dog, it will "sit" when in fact one of the last things you want is for the pup to sit. You want it to stand, and to stand still in one place.

It is generally not a big deal to fix this. You can use a suitcase lead or just raise the dog's butt with your toe. Most dogs get the idea pretty fast. But when you start working with live birds, the last thing you want is for the dog to think "sit." Lots of people will argue to you that this too can be fixed, and indeed it can. But to fix it requires alot of handling of the dog (putting your hands on it) when it is around birds. And the more handling of the dog that you do, the more likely it is that you will not like the outcome of the finished, broke dog. You will not like its style - low tail - and even if it stands high when the handler approaches, the tail will drop as the handler walks past. As a judge, I absolutely hate to see that. And most experienced judges are the same way. I can't tell you how many times I have seen that in trials. A dog is doing a great job, it goes on point, as the handler walks in it just loses intensity and down goes the tail. The sure sign of an over handled, over obedienced dog.

So I, personally, never teach sit early in a dog's career.

Now, you will get people who chime in here and say "Never teach sit!!!! How can you expect a dog to be compliant and well behaved if it won't sit!!!!!!"

That is because those people translate "Don't teach sit too early" into "Don't teach sit at all."

You can sure teach sit if you want to. It is just smarter, and creates a more stylish, intense dog, to wait until after the dog is broke to teach sit.

I, personally, have no use for the command. Whoa works just fine for me. But if you need a dog to "remain by blind" you need to teach sit. Wait and do it later. After the dog is broke.

that is some fine reading

[KarlW]

Well, there you go. That's why I come to this forum! I'll keep up the whoa work and hold off on sit until he is steady on birds and through his force fetch training.

[MOGSP]

I have a young GSP and I am running him in NAVHDA every trainer some experienced some not so much echoed exactly what "Wagonmaster" just wrote. I was told by an obiedence person to teach sit before I posed the question to the trainers or attended a training day. It added some frustration and took some time to undo. He no longer sits when I put pressure on him, but if I had it to do over again I wouldn't have done it early in training.

[Shadow]

I have an eleven month GSP that doesn't know how to sit. Breeder (and a separate trainer) said they don't like to teach sit at first. That's new to me. My previous draht knew how to sit at 11 weeks! At eleven months I think it is time for a dog to know how to sit. What do you guys think?

it's actually quite funny- to see 4 dogs come into birds- 3 sit- one is standing intense locked up on point

[Merle]

What was your previous experience with your DD? Did you have any problems with it sitting on point? Some do and some don't. So what. Go ahead and teach sit, to me it is not that big of a deal unless you are a competition hunter. The most important thing IMO is that the dog finds birds, waits for you to flush 'em, kill 'em and then goes and gets 'em when you tell them to.

[Prairie Hunter]

I have always taught my dogs to sit early on, and never had any problem with them wanting to sit while on point, or while I’m working on steadiness. However, if I am training a soft dog, or one without much intensity on point, I probably wouldn’t teach sit until I had the dog pointing well. For that matter, I probably wouldn’t train on any other commands with a dog like that either. I guess the important thing is to read your dog so you know what you can get away with.

[ACooper]

What was your previous experience with your DD? Did you have any problems with it sitting on point? Some do and some don't. So what. Go ahead and teach sit, to me it is not that big of a deal unless you are a competition hunter. The most important thing IMO is that the dog finds birds, waits for you to flush 'em, kill 'em and then goes and gets 'em when you tell them to.

Why teach it early and possibly have problems to fix? When you can wait and avoid it? Sit isnt a very important command for any bird dog I ever met.

[briarpatch]

I aint a good trainer but I generally do some whoa training first when pups are very young then start working on sit still while the dogs are very young and havent fully mastered whoa..I have had dogs get confused sometimes during whoa training without any birds and they sit during training.

But I never seen a dog get confused when birds are involved and sat during a point or during training with birds... Break whoa and flush maybe but sit?

it's actually quite funny- to see 4 dogs come into birds- 3 sit- one is standing intense locked up on point

I would have to guess the 1 on point was a GSP and the other 3 were some other breed


But what wagonmaster said has merit..

[snips]

My 17 yr old 10x NSTRA Ch house dog never knew how to sit. Fritz went thru NAVHDA UT and never knew how to sit. I am not sure why it is necessary unless you are doing testing that requires it.

[Shadow]

a ways back some would teach sit, stay, come,- in that order- suppose you'd call that training- they looked at it as "I must have control and it begins with sit!"

we were out- Britt was in front- Britt was backing- 3 black dogs came up- milled about- and sat- laughed so hard tears came-

[ezzy333]

My 17 yr old 10x NSTRA Ch house dog never knew how to sit. Fritz went thru NAVHDA UT and never knew how to sit. I am not sure why it is necessary unless you are doing testing that requires it.

Every time this subject comes up the people who have trained a lot of dogs get on and tell he new person what might happen if they train sit and the smart way to handle it is to wait till they are older. Then we have the people get on that say they have trainbed a dog to sit and never had a problem so they advise to go ahead and teach it.

I just do not undwerstand the reasoning used to tell newcomers to teach it because their dog didn't have a problem. It just makes sense to wait when it has benn documented over and over that some dogs do and if you wait a few months the whole possibility is eliminated.

And I agree with Brenda, since I have never taught a dog to sit, not out of fear it woud sit in the field but rather just never found a need for it. I don't care if a dog stands or sits when it is at my side. I guess I just never felt the necessity to make a dog perform in a certain manner when some other way works just as well.

The answer to this question is you can teach SIT to a puppy if you want but it might cause you problems down the road. But if you wait a few months to teach it the problem is eliminated. Sounds like good thinking to me.


Ezzy

[briarpatch]

I am not sure why it is necessary unless you are doing testing that requires it

I don't know that its necessary but I like a dog to sit sometimes until released while waiting for legal shooting hours rather than having them run around why I am getting my gun and stuff ready or have them off hunting while I am stopped taking a break, I could also see where it would be useful in a duck blind.

I just do not undwerstand the reasoning used to tell newcomers to teach it because their dog didn't have a problem. It just makes sense to wait when it has benn documented over and over that some dogs do and if you wait a few months the whole possibility is eliminated.

what ezzy said has merit as well,

for an example : sitting waiting patiently for the release command while we are taking a break I believe (if I remember right) Cal was about 10 months in this photo and Belle about 8 months Stone about 13 months or so

Picture 051.jpg

But I am just a beginner trainer myself and surely make alot of mistakes all the time when it comes to training and also in doing things in the right order...

and think the others are 100% correct it would be easier to teach whoa first then onto sit later if you think sit is a command you would like to use, as others said this may not be a command you even require. I personally use it alot as I am a not so young fat guy that takes alot of breaks in the field and like to have the dogs sitting patiently waiting till I get my second wind or 3rd or 4th wind and I am ready to go again.

[SubMariner]

I have an eleven month GSP that doesn't know how to sit. Breeder (and a separate trainer) said they don't like to teach sit at first. That's new to me. My previous draht knew how to sit at 11 weeks! At eleven months I think it is time for a dog to know how to sit. What do you guys think?

Zio started Obedience around 4 months old & currently has 2 of the 3 legs he needs for CD. We intend to take him all the way to UD.

Meanwhile at this point he has his JH as we've been running him at field trials & hunt tests. He's about 75% whoa-compliant now, with an eye towards being broken in the Fall, when he goes back to "Doggy Camp".

Obviously we don't think Obedience & Hunting/Trialing are exclusive. As long as you maintain clear single-use commands & are consistent, there doesn't seem to be a problem: he doesn't sit or whoa unless commanded to do so.

JMHO,

[cgbirddogs]

I personally don't see anything wrong with teaching a bird dog to sit. I know I'm in the minority with this view point, but so be it. I've never had a problem with a dog I've trained to sit doing it in the field. However, I've seen dogs that have never been trained to sit, do it when too much pressure is applied to them. Too much pressure causes dogs to do the squirly things in the field (sit, lay down, whatever), not teaching them how to sit. Copping a squat is a dog's way of telling you "hey, hold on a second, I don't know what you want me to do so slow down a bit." If you can teach a mutt in the dog pound to sit, you should be able to teach one of these high powered, uber pedigree, $1,000-a-pup bird dogs how to sit without fear of "ruining" it.

[Shadow]

some can teach anything to anything- I've got a cat that points and retrieves to hand

[KarlW]

What was your previous experience with your DD? Did you have any problems with it sitting on point? Some do and some don't. So what. Go ahead and teach sit, to me it is not that big of a deal unless you are a competition hunter. The most important thing IMO is that the dog finds birds, waits for you to flush 'em, kill 'em and then goes and gets 'em when you tell them to.

Well, my DD had no problem with sit vs pointing that I am aware of. FWIW, at one point I sent him to a trainer for a month. In that time I am not aware of any problems that might have occured and then fixed. He was trained for force fetching, sharpening basic commands, and steadying to flush.

[KarlW]

To answer "why is there a need to teach a bird dog to sit?" I offer the following. I don't live on a farm, on a bird hunting operation, etc. I live in a suburban neighborhood with all sorts of forms of human contact. A sitting dog is a stationary dog. Sure, standing still should be fine but I think people are more comfortable with a sitting dog. Also, I would prefer whoa for hunting and related situations. Sit/stay while I am getting ready for the days' hunt, getting groceries out of the truck, or having him stay in place in the living room.

Anyway, at 11 months with exposure to birds and some whoa training, isn't this a point where he can learn sit and stay??

[MillerClemsonHD]

It's your choice as the owner if you teach sit stay or not. Me personally I will not as I have seen dogs sit on point. Some where bc of pressure, some were soft dogs, and some were hard headed. Rather then put the ground work there for an issue like this to pop up I'm not going to teach my dog to sit. No reason to do something that will cause an issue that is not easy to fix. You make some sacrifices for 2yrs up front to get 8-10yrs of a great bird dog. Another way to look at it is are you willing to spend and extra $400-$800 for a trainer to fix your dog if he begins to sit on point during the breaking process? Then if you decide to force fetch are you willing to spend more if this slows the process or causes issues? If the answer is no take the safe bet and don't teach sit. If you don't mind the gamble then teach him to sit.

Multiple very experienced pros have responded to your post and said don't do it. They have seen 100s of dogs and know the issues. Just bc someone says I taught my dog to sit with no issue doesn't mean it always works that way. These pros are speaking from extensive experience so I'd listen to them.

[KarlW]

Easy now Miller, I was just posing a few reasons for having a dog able to sit. I appreciate all the thoughts on this thread.

Actually, my plan is to hold off on sit for a while until whoa training gets very solid and we get through force fetch. He is doing so darn well on everything else and is so easy going that I don't need him to sit right now. He is so quick to learn, he can learn to sit later.

[Shadow]

I have an eleven month GSP that doesn't know how to sit. Breeder (and a separate trainer) said they don't like to teach sit at first. That's new to me. My previous draht knew how to sit at 11 weeks! At eleven months I think it is time for a dog to know how to sit. What do you guys think?

could be I'm wrong but isn't it more like- you can't understand why this one isn't like your other one

I think every dog knows how to sit

[kylenicholas02]

Ummm you might look into the experience of some of your repliers prior to coming to a ultimate decision. My consensus of the experienced, Ezzy, Brenda, Westwind etc.. These people have/will train more dogs in a year than most have in a lifetime.
That said out of all the dogs in my kennel, 1 sits. She's also the house lab dog my ex bought, and never leaves the truck when hunting/trialing. But for instance, most love water retrieves and when they are waiting for the toss or ducks, I whoa them to my left side... Yes this isnt the best, but my dogs arent intended for retrieving ducks....

[KarlW]

I have an eleven month GSP that doesn't know how to sit. Breeder (and a separate trainer) said they don't like to teach sit at first. That's new to me. My previous draht knew how to sit at 11 weeks! At eleven months I think it is time for a dog to know how to sit. What do you guys think?

could be I'm wrong but isn't it more like- you can't understand why this one isn't like your other one

I think every dog knows how to sit

No, more like I was trying to understand the thinking behind not teaching sit (which has been made clearer on this thread). Training bird dogs isn't my first calling and I can't recall reading about not teaching sit in any books I have read. Nevertheless I see the logic, particularly (though not exclusively) in a dog that might be a bit soft.

And you are right, he does know how to sit...when he wants to.

[kylenicholas02]

Personally I dont think teaching a dog to sit at a young age is right no matter what personality the dog has. A dog that has been taught to sit early will us that as an escape no matter what the temperament. A dog is similar to a 3 yr. old in learning tendencies and requires repetition. WIth a dog knowing by sitting it gets praise, it will resort to sitting no matter what pressure is applied.

[Shadow]

I've had Britt's that I could point my finger at and they'd sit- I've had ones that I have to push down to sit- never have I trained one to sit

[Mr. Crappie]

I think it's a personal preference. Kind of like have a whelping crate made out of wood or a cardboard box. In Bob Wehle's book "Wing and Shot" he says that teaching a pointing dog to sit was important.

[Wagonmaster]

If you will look back at Wehle's book, what he actually says it that teaching sit to a gentleman's shooting dog is important, but it should be done after the dog is broke. Birds and broke come first.

[Prairie Hunter]

Personally I dont think teaching a dog to sit at a young age is right no matter what personality the dog has. A dog that has been taught to sit early will us that as an escape no matter what the temperament. A dog is similar to a 3 yr. old in learning tendencies and requires repetition. WIth a dog knowing by sitting it gets praise, it will resort to sitting no matter what pressure is applied.

Kyle,

While I understand what you are getting at, why would the dog receiving praise for sitting be any different than the dog receiving praise for any other behavior (i.e. come, heel, down, retrieve, etc.)? Why is sit the behavior the pup will resort to if they receive pressure? Why wouldn’t they come to you or lie down, or go grab something to retrieve? All of these are things they get praised for.

The bottom line is you have to be able to read your dog. If you have a soft dog, I wouldn’t teach them to sit at an early age. However, I probably wouldn’t put much pressure on them for any other command either. However, if the pup has a good temperament, or is a real strong willed pup, I don’t see a problem with teaching sit early on.

All my dogs are house dogs. Sometimes I need a dog to sit or lie down, and be on good behavior, for an extended period of time. I also do some waterfowl hunting, and expect my dogs to be able to sit calmly in the blind for extended periods. If I start teaching sit early, it requires less pressure to get them to do it later.

I am not trying to convince anyone to teach their dog to sit. I think it is a personal choice. As some have stated, they have no reason to teach their dogs to sit. I just don’t think you can, or should, make a blanket statement that a pup should, or should not, be taught to sit. It depends on the pup.

[snips]

I have a Wire in here now that has had lots of obedience drilled into him. Sit, Down, heel. Everytime I say Whoa he goes into sit then down, it is constant confusion to get him in one place like I want. NOT EVERY dog will behave like this, but this one does. So, once again I will say it just lessens the confusion to a dog to know exactly what you want. I have many dogs that do things their owners have taught them when you say Whoa, and it may never effect them around birds, but this one dog it does. So why take the chance. One of my best birddogs I have ever owned, she worked birds til she was a yr old then started her obedience training. She went thru Utility Obedience with flying colors, but her birdwork was solid before we ever started all the drilling in obedience. And she was awsome in each thing.

[Rich Heaton]

So what do you teach a dog to do first,,,, if not to sit?

[slistoe]

The first thing my dogs learn is NO.

[BigShooter]

Rich,

The first two things I teach my pups are to take frequent naps & to try to get into trouble whenever they are not sleeping. I measure success by the results I get.

[Shadow]

first thing mine learn is- "hey hey" sort of makes them stop and think