Versatile Dog

[kumate]

Has anyone ever spoke or corresponded with NAVDHA and got any statistics on just what breed has

1. The most utility dogs

2. The most VC's

3. The most NA dogs ie how many 1 2 and 3's

It seems since NAVDHA is the only Testing organization in this country that tests for versatility or the closest approximation to it, If a prospective buyer were confused about breeds and which one was the most versatile, it would be a worthwile research to find out the facts and make a objective decision. In the absense of actually seeing a breed and a few representitives of it actually work this would be the best choice.

Jerry

[Dave Quindt]

GSPs have the most VCs; approx 2/3rds. Complete list here: http://www.navhda.org/invhist.html

The last 6 years of complete test results is available here: http://www.navhda.org/tstrpt.html

The short answer to each of your questions is GSP; based simply on the number of dogs tested every year.

In my opinion, if you choose a long-established versatile breed here in the US (GSPs & GWPs) and choose a litter that's a good representative of the breed, your odds of having a VC-capable dog are as good as if you buy from some NAVHDA-specific breeder with 6 generations of VCs and UTs. If an owner has an average American field-bred GSP or GWP, and is very dedicated to getting to the Invitational, they'll usually succeed. Passing the VC gets a bit more tricky, in part because of the amount of shear luck you need at that test.

I've been down the path you want to go; trying to use the data to draw conclusions. It doesn't work, because the test results often don't match with what happened in the field, and don't take into account what went into training the dog.

You can spin NAVHDA test results to show virtually anything you wish, and it's done on a regular basis. We have gotten way too caught up in pedigrees and test results, and breeders awards and futurity results IMO. We need focus on producing fundamentally good dogs, not good test results. And there is a difference.


JMO,
Dave

[ezzy333]

Good dogs of any breed can be trained to excell in versatility from my experience. It's more how they are trained than breeding. Ross had no problem getting his pointers to pass the test and most breeds can do it if thats your goal.

JMO
Ezzy

[versatileguy]

Passing the tests at all levels % wise it is the GWP.....just by a hair. In hunting preformance in the real world it is the GWP by a wide margin.

[BigShooter]

In hunting preformance in the real world it is the GWP by a wide margin.

I'd like to see your data or did you forget to add this is just your opinion?

[kumate]

Dave, Ezzy good points, I do think there is more than coincidence to a line of dogs that percentage wise excell ovr others although i do realize that if enough time and or money are invested most can succeed but the % of success wont be there. Versatile guy the best by far statement is definately subjective and like most oppinions skewed.

Jerry

[ACooper]

I think I read somewhere that based on the % of dogs tested the Pudel Pointer had the best over all % passes at least at the NA level. Can anyone corroborate this?

[Prairie Hunter]

Edited

[Prairie Hunter]

Good dogs of any breed can be trained to excell in versatility from my experience. It's more how they are trained than breeding. Ross had no problem getting his pointers to pass the test and most breeds can do it if thats your goal.

JMO
Ezzy

Ezzy,

I have to disagree with you on this one. A good dog can be trained to pass a test, but that does not mean they excel at being versatile. If a dog lacks the innate drive to retrieve, track, or swim, they will never excel at being versatile. A dog that doesn’t have much desire to retrieve can be Force Fetched to retrieve well enough to pass a test, but that lack of desire will still show up on tough retrieves while hunting. A dog that lacks the instinct and desire to track can be taught to track well enough to pass tests, but when it comes time to track down and pen running wild pheasants or track down wounded running pheasants, their lack of ability will show.

Training can cover up flaws in a dog’s innate abilities well enough to pass a NA, Utility, or even VC test, but in the end, the dog needs to possess certain innate qualities if it’s going to excel at being versatile. That is where breeding comes in.

[ezzy333]

good point

Ezzy

[Shadow]

Prairie- think you've really summed it up- well said

I don't allow mine to track- so- being that we have and continue to hunt- quail, pheasants, doves, woodcock, grouse, prairie chickens, ducks, geese, and some yard "bleep" birds we aren't versatile-

[cody]

Ya gotta have some fur in there to be versatile, don't ya know

[Prairie Hunter]

Shadow,

I wouldn’t say you aren’t versatile. Very few of us use all of the traits a versatile dog is capable of. My dog will sit in a duck blind, retrieve ducks from the water, and track down cripple ducks in flooded timber and vegetation. However, I only hunt ducks a couple of times per year. My dog will track wounded game, but I have only used him to track a wounded deer once. He has a lot of abilities that I don’t use very often, or at all, just because they don’t fit the type of hunting I normally do.

I do have a question. Why don’t you allow your dogs to track?

[cody]

I actually have a lot of respect for a dog that can run a fur track, I just expect them to be baying while they are doing it.

[Prairie Hunter]

Ya gotta have some fur in there to be versatile, don't ya know

I think most versatile dogs will hunt fur if encouraged to. I know guys that hunt rabbits with their GSPs, GWPs, and Brittanys. However, I do not hunt rabbits with my dogs, so I never shot one over them, and I discouraged them from pointing and tracking them when they were pups. Once they realized I wasn’t interested in them, they lost interest too. As adult dogs, they don’t bother with them.

Most of the versatile breeds, especially those with old German bloodlines, will hunt just about anything you want them to. Many still show sharpness on fur (i.e. fox, raccoon, skunk, badger, etc.). I know guys with GSPs that have tracked and bayed up wild hogs in TX. A lot of this is just instinctive.

[Shadow]

I gotta chuckle at versatile guy- he really think I loose birds- doubt he's ever been behind a Top Dog-

prairie- to explain- I don't want mine following birds by having the nose on the ground-
if we've got a runner- I'll back off and come in from downwind- seen some nose-to-the-ground trackers keep on a pheasant for hours- since I hunt alot of WIHA'S and some folks don't have the common scense to stop blasting away there are pheasants who won't fly- and rabbits! got a few fields with alot of them- they like a pointer who tries to pin them-

if I wanted the best fur dog I'd let mine play with them- but then I could have 200-400 rabbit points all day long- not my thing

[postoakshorthairs]

"I don't allow mine to track- so- being that we have and continue to hunt- quail, pheasants, doves, woodcock, grouse, prairie chickens, ducks, geese, and some yard "bleep" birds we aren't versatile-"


"No what you do is lose cripples and give hunting a bad name because your dog can't, won't, or worse yet isn't allowed to "track". Might want to stay hunting the gamefarms.

I would also bet the number of ducks/geese the dog has retrieved or the # of times it has sat in a duck blind could be counted on the fingers of one hand. I am not including the thumb.

It is not about fur........you just seem to have a hang up about that, probably because you haven't figured out how to read your dog and what it is working. So you belittle the dogs who can do it, and the owners who can read their dogs."

I don't have anything specific to topic to offer but I have to say it seems that no matter what topic is presented lately it comes down to someone disrespecting others views, experience and dogs. I used to really enjoy reading on this board but the "mine is better than yours" crap is making it hard to keep reading.
Versatileguy-
Yeah we get it...you have a "versatile" dog and you think you know more and have a better dog than anyone else..good for you. There are ways of disagreeing with others opinions than being abraisive and all knowing. I assumed when he said he didn't allow his dogs to "track" he meant he didn't allow them to track animals other than those he is hunting. I would venture to guess he does allow them to find wounded animals he had shot. I read back and see you have been warned before about your posts..I hope someone revisits this before we lose more people off the forum.

[Ron R]

I have a stupid question. When a versatile dog is running fur, lets say coons, coyotes or rabbits does it bawl like a hound when it hits scent or does it just do a silent track? There is one guy around here that has a GSP that bawls like a beagle when it retrieves down birds. I donn't think that's normal but hillarious to see. Thanks

Ron

[Prairie Hunter]

I have a stupid question. When a versatile dog is running fur, lets say coons, coyotes or rabbits does it bawl like a hound when it hits scent or does it just do a silent track? There is one guy around here that has a GSP that bawls like a beagle when it retrieves down birds. I donn't think that's normal but hillarious to see. Thanks

Ron

Ron,

Some of the early GSPs brought to this country would get on the track of bear, deer, and pigs, and bay like hounds as they ran them. You don't see that much anymore, but some GSPs will still do it. I think this was the result of the use of the Hanoverain Schweisshund in creating the breed. The Hanoverain Schweisshund is very similar to the modern day Plott Hound in this country. The Plott brothers brought a few Hanoverain Schweisshunds to the U.S. when they immigrated, and began breeding them here. If you are familiar with the Plott Hound, you know how tenacious they are on big game.

[Prairie Hunter]

Shadow,

I understand your point, but not all dogs are slow, methodical, nose to the ground trackers. My dogs, and some of the others I’ve hunted over, do not put their noses to the ground unless the track gets very tough. They usually run the track, sometimes flat out, with their heads up, and point the bird when they get close enough. If the bird continues to run from under the points, they will continue to relocate until the bird holds for them or flushes. These dogs are very effective on pheasants. I have one dog that will track hard, but break off, circle around, and come into the bird from the opposite direction to cut the bird off, and pin it.

[postoakshorthairs]

I understand your point, but not all dogs are slow, methodical, nose to the ground trackers. My dogs, and some of the others I’ve hunted over, do not put their noses to the ground unless the track gets very tough. They usually run the track, sometimes flat out, with their heads up, and point the bird when they get close enough. If the bird continues to run from under the points, they will continue to relocate until the bird holds for them or flushes. These dogs are very effective on pheasants. I have one dog that will track hard, but break off, circle around, and come into the bird from the opposite direction to cut the bird off, and pin it.]

It seems like some of this goes back to one definition of "tracking". I personally don't consider what you described above as "tracking". I've hunted over setters, britts, pointers, gsp's...etc and most of the good ones, of all these breeds, will do what you describe after they're exposed to wild pheasants. JMO

[Prairie Hunter]

[quote
I understand your point, but not all dogs are slow, methodical, nose to the ground trackers. My dogs, and some of the others I’ve hunted over, do not put their noses to the ground unless the track gets very tough. They usually run the track, sometimes flat out, with their heads up, and point the bird when they get close enough. If the bird continues to run from under the points, they will continue to relocate until the bird holds for them or flushes. These dogs are very effective on pheasants. I have one dog that will track hard, but break off, circle around, and come into the bird from the opposite direction to cut the bird off, and pin it.]

It seems like some of this goes back to one definition of "tracking". I personally don't consider what you described above as "tracking". I've hunted over setters, britts, pointers, gsp's...etc and most of the good ones, of all these breeds, will do what you describe after they're exposed to wild pheasants. JMO

What is your difinition of tracking? If the dog is following a scent trail left by a running bird or other game over a significant distance, it's tracking to me. I have put my dogs on the trail of wounded birds, and just on birds I saw running, they track them down and eventually point or retrieve them. That's tracking to me.

[postoakshorthairs]

I see your point, but when I picture a dog running with his head high trying to find the scent cone then slamming on point I don't see it as tracking. I can think of numerous times when dogs I've hunted with come upon a pheasant and point..then the pheasant obviously moves within the brush..and the dog relocates and/or circles. I just call that good bird work and never have thought of it as tracking. I guess I think of tracking more as trailing wounded deer, running rabbits etc. I guess after reading and writing on the subject I can see how the example with the birds would be "tracking" but like I said prior..if you consider that tracking I've seen numerous "non versatile" breeds excel at this type of work.

[adogslife]

There is a difference between tracking and trailing. When a dog is 'tracking' a wounded bird it is actually trailing. When a dog is running a fur 'track' it is actually trailing. Tracking is step by step,methodical and slow. Only dogs that really do this are bloodhounds.
Dogs will trail because trailing is the most efficient way.
In Germany they like the dogs to bay when off leash and silent when on leash.

[Shadow]

I see your point, but when I picture a dog running with his head high trying to find the scent cone then slamming on point I don't see it as tracking. I can think of numerous times when dogs I've hunted with come upon a pheasant and point..then the pheasant obviously moves within the brush..and the dog relocates and/or circles. I just call that good bird work and never have thought of it as tracking. I guess I think of tracking more as trailing wounded deer, running rabbits etc. I guess after reading and writing on the subject I can see how the example with the birds would be "tracking" but like I said prior..if you consider that tracking I've seen numerous "non versatile" breeds excel at this type of work.

ahhhhhhhhhhhh- now we're geting somewhere- well said- and that's how I see it

[Georgia Boy]

There is a difference between tracking and trailing. When a dog is 'tracking' a wounded bird it is actually trailing. When a dog is running a fur 'track' it is actually trailing. Tracking is step by step,methodical and slow. Only dogs that really do this are bloodhounds.

What is my dog doing when he is on a 33 foot lead, following a mile and a half blood track left by a poorly shot buckfrom 3 days prior? (He is not a blood hound)

[adogslife]

What is my dog doing when he is on a 33 foot lead, following a mile and a half blood track left by a poorly shot buckfrom 3 days prior? (He is not a blood hound)

Is 33 feet a state regulation?
I work my dogs at 16 feet and there is enough slack that the leash hangs or drags.
What a true track looks like - if your grandmother in her walker is passing up your dog then you are doing a track.

If your dog works this slow, your dog is doing a track. Age does slow down the dog. They have to search harder for the scent.
After a few hours or overnight, or a few days, many other animals have crossed the trail. The dog picks up these scents and this causes the dog to move faster, trailing of these scents then occurs.Dogs will switch from tracking to trailing. Dogs instinctivly do what works,which for the most part is trailing.
If your dog finds the deer after 3 days then he has concentrated and done his job but it doesn't mean he 'tracked'.I give any dog a 2 thumbs up for following a mile and a half track that is 3 days old and finds the deer.

[wems2371]

I have a stupid question. When a versatile dog is running fur, lets say coons, coyotes or rabbits does it bawl like a hound when it hits scent or does it just do a silent track? There is one guy around here that has a GSP that bawls like a beagle when it retrieves down birds. I donn't think that's normal but hillarious to see. Thanks

Ron

My avatar dog does that too. If I'm out hunting/training with someone, I always get asked about why she does that, when she's baying like a coonhound. I kind of like it, because it clues me in that I need to keep an eye on her to make sure she's not running deer. Muskrat, groundhogs, and possum beware!

[Prairie Hunter]

I see your point, but when I picture a dog running with his head high trying to find the scent cone then slamming on point I don't see it as tracking. . . .

Perhaps I did not explained myself properly. When tracking a running bird, the dog does not have its head high trying to find the scent cone. It is following the scent trail the bird left as it ran. The dog doesn't need to be downwind of the bird. The dog is following more or less the same path the bird took. Some dogs will do this with their heads close to the ground, but some dogs keep their heads up as they follow the trail.

I can think of numerous times when dogs I've hunted with come upon a pheasant and point..then the pheasant obviously moves within the brush..and the dog relocates and/or circles.

What you described is not tracking. I am talking about a dog that comes upon a place where a pheasant has walked or run through, and tracks that bird down until it finds the bird. If the bird runs from under the point, and pheasants will sometimes run quite a distance, the dog will relocate, tracking the pheasant down again and pointing it. If the bird just moves a short distance within the brush, the dog will not have to track to find it.

Numerous times I have seen a pheasant run accross a road or other open area in a field, called my dog, put him on the spot where the bird crossed or ducked into cover, and watched him track that bird down until he found it and pointed it. The bird may run 100 yards before it stops and the dogs gets to point. It is very similar to running a NAVHDA NA Test track.

[Prairie Hunter]

What a true track looks like - if your grandmother in her walker is passing up your dog then you are doing a track.

If your dog works this slow, your dog is doing a track. The dog picks up these scents and this causes the dog to move faster, trailing of these scents then occurs.Dogs will switch from tracking to trailing. Dogs instinctivly do what works,which for the most part is trailing.

So, what is the speed limit for tracking?

There are some technical differences between tracking & trailing, but it is not speed. A tracking dog will follow the exact path its quarry has taken. Trailing dog will follows the animal's scent, which may or may not still be on the path the animal took because of factors that affect the dispersal of scent such as wind, water or temperature. Usually, tracking is slower, but not always. It usually depends on how much scent the trail is throwing off. In a hunting situation, a dog probably does both, swithcing back and forth as necessary. It would be pretty hard to determine when the dog did what, and I don't think it really matters as along as you get the desired result. Therefore, I just refer to the entire process as tracking.

[adogslife]

You are gauging your experience upon hunting dogs,so it appears,I could be wrong.
Bloodhounds and straddlers track. Dogs trained in obedience tracking track. They are slooooow. yes, they may switch to trailing during certain parts of their track due to scent conditions but a true track is boring to watch. You could fall asleep.
Most people use the words tracking and trailing interchangebly, this is incorrect and done by those who truely don't know the difference.

[ezzy333]

I'm not saying you are wrong but where did you find the definitions of trailing and tracking? I have never heard that. And if that is the proper fefinition. at what speed or what head position would signal one from the other. I see my dogs trail or track pheasants quite often and it seems the better the scent the higher the head and the faster they move.

Ezzy

[AHGSP]

I don't think I can agree with the definition of Tracking including the word "slow". I've worked with some Pro SAR's & K-9 Trainers/Handlers with Labs, Shepherds, Beauceron's, Malinois and yes, the infallible Bloodhound and none were particularly slow, except maybe the Bloodhound and I wouldn't even call her work slow. I can think of one particular track I laid over a mile for a Handler, where I purposefully walked on the drainage grating 1/2 way around a school, did loops, walked on parking barriers and the dog was back to me in less than 10 minutes and followed EXACTLY where my track was. The only place it ever slowed was on my loops.

[Prairie Hunter]

I'm not saying you are wrong but where did you find the definitions of trailing and tracking? I have never heard that. And if that is the proper fefinition. at what speed or what head position would signal one from the other. I see my dogs trail or track pheasants quite often and it seems the better the scent the higher the head and the faster they move.

Ezzy

Here is one definition I found that spells out the difference between the two:

"There are two major ways to follow the trail of a person, although they're really on two ends of a continuum. _Tracking_ is the process where the dog follows the person's exact path. _Trailing_ is the process where the dog follows the person's scent, which may or may not approximate the path the person took because of factors affecting the dispersal of scent such as wind and temperature. Contrary to popular opinion, water does not disrupt a tracking or trailing dog, the dog will simply cast around for your trail on the other side, if the water has carried surface scent away (if the water is still, the scent remains on the surface of the water). "

[Prairie Hunter]

You are gauging your experience upon hunting dogs,so it appears,I could be wrong.
Bloodhounds and straddlers track. Dogs trained in obedience tracking track. They are slooooow. yes, they may switch to trailing during certain parts of their track due to scent conditions but a true track is boring to watch. You could fall asleep.
Most people use the words tracking and trailing interchangebly, this is incorrect and done by those who truely don't know the difference.

I am looking at from the point of view of watching hunting dogs work. The bottom line for me is, whether it's technically tracking or trailing, I want a dog that can get on the track of a bird, and track or trail it until it finds the bird and points it. And, if I need the dog to tack or trail other wounded game, I would expect it to do that too.

[BoJack]

I owned the 2001 AWDF(American Working Dog Federation-(All Breed)Tracking Champion(Schutzhund),And he tracked at the speed of a Runaway Freight Train,and was Accurate in all his tracks while also negotiating corners,curves and indicating evidence articles along the track.He accomplished his Championship win in rain and sleet and 30 mph winds,against 58 of the top dogs in the Country, and with Speed on the track.So I neither would associate the word Slow with Tracking.
I've also been involved in training and laying tracks for Patrol dogs.On one particular track I tried everything possible to confuse the dog on the track,running circles,figure 8 loops, zig zagging,crawling through drainage pipes.At the end of the track I climbed 25 feet up in a tree,and watched that dog lay his nose in Every step I took,and 10 minutes later he was barking at the bottom of the tree I was in.Nose,Speed and Accuracy."You can run but you can't hide".K-9

[adogslife]

I have said all there is to about the subject, there is not much more to say to better define the difference.

A track is slow and the dog's nose goes in every nuk and cranny of every step of the trail.You will see the slow tracking dog move quicker at times, this is because they have picked up a stronger scent. It is trailing if they are moving on the track but not smelling each individual track left by the animal.There are tracking hounds to move very cold tracks and trailing hounds to move it faster.If a dog is moving a track faster then a walk the dog is trailing.Dogs don't track with their head up, this is trailing.If the head is up then the scent is strong, dogs don't need to put their heads down for strong scent. the head is down to gather scent,which is why the track is so slow.A dog can and will trail with their head down but they are not smelling each indidual track.A doubt that a good nosed dog would need to track less than 24 hour scent.

So, to recap - tracking is slow to gather scent. Trailing is faster because scent is strong.

[Shadow]

5 guys go pheasant hunting in a big grass field- 9 pointing dogs that track- 1 that doesn't and likes to get away from the mess

[AHGSP]

That would be opinion vs. fact.

When life is on the line in a SAR's mission, speed is EVERYTHING and the scent can almost be guaranteed to be OVER 24 HOURS of AGE, since a Missing Persons report cannot be filed for 24 hours and in most/all cases, the track will more likely be 30-48 hours old by the time a SAR's Team has been mobilized and gotten the dogs on the ground. Would you suggest that scent trail is strong? A strong Tracking dog MUST move quickly and with purpose. Should you Judge a true Tracking Test, you would likely be failing the VERY BEST dogs for the job, based on your inaccurate definition of Tracking vs. Trailing.

[adogslife]

My definition of tracking is a dog that smells each individual track left by human or animal.
My definition of trailing is a dog that does not.

[adogslife]

In addition, trailing is a form of tracking.

[ezzy333]

Sounds like the arguement of what came first, the chicken or the egg. I think what we end up doing is we feel the need to use a human term to try and differentiate the process used by different dogs to perform the same task. And in the end it produces the same results. I watch my dogs trailor track a bird that has run out or has been crippled and I have no idea whether they are smelling every foot print or not. And further more it doesn't seem important if they find the bird. Guess the same would apply to finding a person. I would judge the performance on the end result and not even be concerned in how they did it.

Is that foolish?

Ezzy

[AHGSP]

I would agree with you 100% on game Ezzy. As long as game is found at the end of the scent trail, whether it be a bird, deer or otherwise and that game is not lost, I don't really care 1 iota how the dog did it's job in real life hunting application, which is what concerns us for the most part here. In a Test, well that may be a different thing all together on Pass/Fail.

I can't completely agree with you in the case of a human, as there is the potential for scent articles to be found on the scent trail that can tell a lot about the condition of the person being sought and if the dog is trailing on the downwind side by any distance, these articles could be missed. The importance of those articles can not be emphasized enough. As examples; a pocket book with a prescription bottle for Nitro in it could tell you an individual could be in dire straits if not found soon; a coat laying on the trail in freezing temperatures may show the potential a person is already experiencing hypothermia, stripping down, or possibly going to be at risk if not found soon. Things like that tell a Team a great deal about the condition of the SAR and possibly whether it will be a Rescue or a Recovery. In this case, staying EXACTLY on the trail is of utmost importance.

For our purposes here on this Forum though, I don't think we really need to be concerned with Human Rescue/Recovery and I only make these post to point out that SLOW does not necessarily fit the definition of Tracking, which a Versatile dog should be capable of whether the function is used by it's owner or not.

[adogslife]

Dogs are born tracking then they use the more efficient way and begin to trail.
A dog who tracks birds probably does not know how to trail. Something all good hunting dogs should know. Could be gentetics could be lack of exposure.

[markj]

Do mice count as fur? My dogs track em out and chew them up. I try to trap em and get rid of em but a few get past the traps and the dogs get em.

[Georgia Boy]

When I speak of tracking I am talking about blood tracking on a long lead. The only thing I have heard about speed is that sometimes, with some dogs you will get to the end of the track quicker if the dog goes slower due to not making mistakes. It is kind of hard to read your dog and handle the lead if you are plowing through the woods at a fast pace. If the area you are tracking is fairly open it isnt that bad. My current dog tracks at a pretty fast pace and when we did our blood tracking test at 7 months of age he got a prise 1. The judges thought I should try to slow him down a little.

[CherrystoneWeims]

I would have to agree with Bruce. Different dogs have different styles of tracking. Some are more confident and move faster than others.

When a dog has its head in the air and is finding something it is called "air scenting". At least this is what the SARS people call it. I trained a few times with them and they had two differently trained dogs for live victims.

[zzweims]

Tracking--exact route. Useful (sometimes essential) in forensics and for gathering evidence. Dogs may track with head high or low--doesn't matter. Speed--some track fast, some track slow. However, it is important to TEACH the dog to move slowly (or pick one that is naturally slow) because of the human contingent. We are the ones dropping markers and bagging evidence. We just can't move as fast as a dog.

Trailing--following ground scent--wherever it may waft. Again, head high or low doesn't matter. Speed IS important, particularly on a FRESH track (wounded pheasant, prison excapee, etc.). They can go slower on a cold scent, because chances are, whatever you are looking for is either already dead or in another country.

Aline
http://zzweims.com