Male vs Female...performance?

[GhillieSuit22]

So I have had female dogs my whole life except for my step-dad's hunting dog. I am currently waiting for a new male braque francais pup. I just picked a male because I wanted to change it up.

Has anyone noticed any performance difference between a male and a female hunting dog?

Also I know my step-dad waited until our male hunting pup was fully matured before he got the chop(fixed). Everyone else in the house wanted the pup fixed way before that due to marking and such. My step-dad didn't want to lose any essence of the hunting drive by getting the dog fixed too early. Is there anything factual to support this because I really do not want to wait that long.

[slistoe]

In regards to hunting performance the answer to your questions would be No and No.

[GsPJustin]

Id take either one.

[GhillieSuit22]

In regards to hunting performance the answer to your questions would be No and No.

I guess I should have expected that. That is what I thought. I guess I was just curious why some prefer one to the other. Although I really didn't know if the age of getting a male dog fixed affects their growth/personality in any way.

[Fowlplay]

Having males neutered before they're 18 months to 2 years old definitely has an affect on growth. Bones in the legs will grow longer and muscles will not develope as defined as they would when left intact. There is no affect what so ever on hunting desire or ability from neutering but, best to allow the animal to mature physically and mentally before doing so.

[vzkennels]

It affects females equally if done before the dog matures phsyicaly & mentally.

[Razor]

I would get a male every time over a female if I only had one dog. The heat cycle can and has really thrown some hunts into disarray.

[GhillieSuit22]

Wow, I can't rag on my step-dad anymore then I guess. I was just talking to my hunting buddy, and he said he likes to let his females go as long as possible but he doesn't let them reach their first heat. He said he just feels this helps diminish their drive to breed. I don't know if that is true or not. But it is obvious that I will be looking into this more. 2 years is a long time, I mean I guess I really don't mind...I just can't stand the marking.

[vzkennels]

There is another thread here about marking some where just recently & mosy agree neutering will not stop the marking. The female should not be spayed untill fully mature & depending on the dog some will have 2 or 3 cycles before then.Don't let some vet tell you they need to be done at 6 mos or 1 yr with out checking into all this first & making your own decision.Most of us though agree don't do it till the dog is mature if at all.

[slistoe]

In regards to hunting performance the answer to your questions would be No and No.

I guess I should have expected that. That is what I thought. I guess I was just curious why some prefer one to the other. Although I really didn't know if the age of getting a male dog fixed affects their growth/personality in any way.

Fixing a male dog early will certainly affect their personality and their growth, but not in any way that will affect their performance as a hunting dog.

[GsPJustin]

In regards to hunting performance the answer to your questions would be No and No.

I guess I should have expected that. That is what I thought. I guess I was just curious why some prefer one to the other. Although I really didn't know if the age of getting a male dog fixed affects their growth/personality in any way.

Fixing a male dog early will certainly affect their personality and their growth, but not in any way that will affect their performance as a hunting dog.

I think it will affect their performance, and not just on physical stand point. Probably even their drive to. I am sure there is a dog or 2 out there that was neutered at 6 months and was the best hunting dog that guy/gal ever had.

JMO, I am not a vet.

[GhillieSuit22]

I think it will affect their performance, and not just on physical stand point. Probably even their drive to. I am sure there is a dog or 2 out there that was neutered at 6 months and was the best hunting dog that guy/gal ever had.

JMO, I am not a vet.

I am a little confused. Are you saying it will affect their performance/drive in a negative way?

[GhillieSuit22]

Fixing a male dog early will certainly affect their personality and their growth, but not in any way that will affect their performance as a hunting dog.

In what fashion do you think it will affect their personality...just curious. I have ideas but I just want to see what others say.

[GsPJustin]

I am a little confused. Are you saying it will affect their performance/drive in a negative way?

Whether it is negative or not is in the eye of the beholder I guess. It will sure make the dog more mellow. Before you get your hopes up let me explain. He wont be mellow like he can sit around all day and be a content dog. But he wont be as (the best term I can use is) haul "bleep" as he could be. His peak wont be as high as it could be. His desire to push hard wont be as strong. It will also be tougher to keep him in shape. The way his bones and muscles matured will also make a difference in his performance. Some people might want some of these features in a dog. But not me personally.

JMO

[slistoe]

If you fix a male at a very young age they will not lift their leg, they will squat to pee. They will not display overt sexual behaviors. They will not develop territorial marking behaviors. Physically they will be taller and have a lighter muscle tone.

As far as hunt drive and physical endurance the dog will be equally effective as he would have been.

[slistoe]

But he wont be as (the best term I can use is) haul "bleep" as he could be. His peak wont be as high as it could be. His desire to push hard wont be as strong.

What type of sample size are you basing these observations on? In 16 years of breeding where we keep in contact with most of the pups sold and have a high percentage of pups spayed/neutered before 6 mos. of age I have not seen these effects you speak of - male or female.

[GsPJustin]

My sample size is sure not 16 years of breeding dogs, but I seriously doubt that a dog neutered/spayed before 6 months will act, run, hunt, drive, and have the stamina, etc exactly the same in the field as a dog that has not. There are some facts missing here I think. How many neutered/spayed dogs that you kept in contact with have you ran with dogs that weren't neutered/spayed and were in good hunting shape? This comes from personal experience and from breeders I know.

As far as the desire comment goes. I could have worded it better. The drive might still be there, but the push sure wont.

[slistoe]

Let's put it this way. If what you say is true, then the owners neutered virtually every exceptional dog we ever bred. Because they are indistinguishable from the ordinary ones who weren't neutered. I cannot imagine the incredible "push" these dogs could have had.

I comment because you continue to state this as some sort of fact "seriously doubt" and "push sure won't" and it does not match my observation at all. The neutered early males start hard, finish hard and hang as long as any other males in the field. Many of these comparisons are among litter mates and other closely related dogs.

[GhillieSuit22]

I am getting the feeling I started a hostile thread...my apologies. It would be nice to get some factual base behind this or maybe a survey. It seems like opinions are just going every which way.

I am going to try and take a deeper look into factual results. In the meantime if you are interested, take a look at this.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTerm ... InDogs.pdf

[GhillieSuit22]

SUMMARY

An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the longterm
health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter
correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do
not yet understand about this subject.

On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially
immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated
with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

On the positive side, neutering male dogs

• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may
exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the
odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the
relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

One thing is clear – much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and
contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence. Rather than helping to educate pet
owners, much of it has contributed to common misunderstandings about the health risks and benefits
associated of spay/neuter in dogs.

The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear
to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically
mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary.

The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed,
age, and gender are variables that must be taken into consideration in conjunction with non-medical factors
for each individual dog. Across-the-board recommendations for all pet dogs do not appear to be
supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature.

I grabbed this summary from the article listed.
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTerm ... InDogs.pdf

This article does not touch upon personality/dominance traits. It is hard to know who to believe although I think I have made up my mind. I will most likely wait until 16-18 months to get the male dog neutered. From what I have read, getting a male dog neutered prior to 18 months will noticeably diminish the dominant/marking traits in a dog. Waiting this long will also leave enough time for the dog to grow and mature properly as well as reduce the risk of health issues in the future.

I am sure there are many that are going to argue that they had their dogs neutered at 6 months and they are just the same as those who waited. That is fine, but when the facts says that they are more susceptible to bone cancer and other health issues...I have not found a reason persuade me the other way. I do realize if you are a breeder or have female dogs running around, why you would want to have the dogs neutered earlier.

[ezzy333]

If you fix a male at a very young age they will not lift their leg, they will squat to pee. They will not display overt sexual behaviors. They will not develop territorial marking behaviors.

This may be true of some but others may. I have had females that mark also.

Physically they will be taller and have a lighter muscle tone.

As far as hunt drive and physical endurance the dog will be equally effective as he would have been.

Lighter muscles tell me there is a difference in strength and or endurance. I agree the dog will still hunt with no problem normally other than a much greater chance of injuring the ACL or other tendons but I still think there is a difference in the high level performances where strength and condition play a part.

JMO
Ezzy

[slistoe]

I certainly wasn't being hostile, simply wanting to know the basis for such strong opinions which are so different from mine.

[cesarike]

I am certainly not an expert but I have some personal experience. Per the Vets insistence I had one dog neutered at 9 months. My 2nd dog which was a year younger I had neutered at 3 years.

The hunting drive in the older dog was not as significant as the drive in my younger dog. The breeder of the older dog told me after the fact that he would never neuter a hunting dog at such a young age, he felt that the maturation process haelped fuel a fire in the dogs belly and they were more driven to hunt.

Bothe dogs loved to hunt, but the younger dog who was neutered later had a ton more drive.

[GhillieSuit22]

Bothe dogs loved to hunt, but the younger dog who was neutered later had a ton more drive.

Any difference in behavior or personality?

[cesarike]

Outside, The younger dog lifted his leg, marked territory, and liked to roam. The roaming ended after he was fixed.

He was also ready to go at a moments notice. If he thought I was going hunting he would get extremely restless. One night before the pheasnat opener, my son was firing the dog up for the next days happenings. That night at about 3:00 in the morning he started to howl. He couldn't wait any longer. Bad thing was we had to wait until noon to hunt.

The older dog, while excited was on a much more even playing field.

Generally as pets they were both well behaved.

Mu current dog is a female GWP which I had fixed at 2 years old. Cycle issues during the hunting season drove my decision on the timing of this.

[slistoe]

If you fix a male at a very young age they will not lift their leg, they will squat to pee. They will not display overt sexual behaviors. They will not develop territorial marking behaviors.

This may be true of some but others may. I have had females that mark also.

Intact females? It has been my experience that spay/neuter will not significantly alter established sexual behaviors, but has a high correlation to prevention of undeveloped ones from presenting.

Physically they will be taller and have a lighter muscle tone.

As far as hunt drive and physical endurance the dog will be equally effective as he would have been.

Lighter muscles tell me there is a difference in strength and or endurance. I agree the dog will still hunt with no problem normally other than a much greater chance of injuring the ACL or other tendons but I still think there is a difference in the high level performances where strength and condition play a part.

JMO
Ezzy

Do endurance athletes have bulky muscles? Intuitively one could say there would be an endurance advantage. I believe I read an article recently where Dr. Zinck (sp?) has toned down her hardline stance on the performance athlete dog and the ACL issue.

[birdhunter2424]

I have a 6 month old GSP that I want to get spayed. I have been researching the age to spay for a little while. I research I have found shows that dogs altered early grow for a longer period of time then non altered dogs. The growth plates in the bones don't close at the right time when altered early. The dogs hormones shut down the growth plates at the proper time, when the dog has been altered these growth plates dont get shut down. This causes undue stress on the joints and ligaments. I won't spay mine until after 14 months but probally around 24 months.

[Chaingang]

Personally I see no reason to neuter a male unless there are some serious aggression issues. There are a few medical issues, especially with older intact males, but they are not real common and usually refer to benign tumors. Here is one interesting perspective on the subject. http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclu ... ndogs.html