Do You Believe The AKC GSP Standards Are Flawed??

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:03 am

I am curious, what are the exact definitions of a field winner? I mean spell it out for us exactly, because I would certainly think there was room for interpretation. There are of course disqualifications, you know, a lack of any finds, breaking too early in certain stakes and so on, but if eight dogs all do the technicalities correctly, who wins? Is there a set definition of stylish? Of best? Do they go out and measure the qualities of nose, and set of tail, or do the make judgements based on a set of ideals?

And as an aside here and perhaps contrary to my above point:

A dog in hard and lean field condition is not to be penalized

I sure would like to place a sign in front of every Conformation judge with this statement.
I have been told many times that a dog was too thin since you could see several ribs, or that I should not excersize them for 3 days to a week prior to showing so as not to have "overmuscled" shoulders which widens them. Or in a female that she was too tight and muscular for a female, blah blah blah
..... so despite my enjoyment and belief in correct conformation being important, I do not excatly think that all judges are aware of what it takes to really hunt. Unfortunately not every sees the perfection that I do in my dogs...

right?

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:17 am

adogslife wrote:AKC standard:
"The German Shorthaired Pointer is a versatile hunter, an all-purpose gun dog capable of high performance in field and water. The judgement of Shorthairs in the show ring reflects this basic characteristic. "

How can a judge look at a dog and know all of this? What does "basic characteristic" mean? How many show GSPs are muscled,like a hunter?

Do they judge field performance at a Zuchtschau? That sentance is laying the foundation for everything that follows in the standard. AKC conformation judges have to judge almost 150 differant breeds of dogs, It seems like a good idea to set the tone for the judge by telling him that he is judging a hunting dog and not a toy poodle.

adogslife wrote:AKC standard:
"A dog in hard and lean field condition is not to be penalized;"

why is this even mentioned in the standard?

Are you serious?

adogslife wrote:Flaws in the standard,if you ask me. It allows for great strides in interpretation and for show breeders to get away with a lot at the expense of the versatile hunting breed the GSP is.

Do you buy show bred dogs? If you are a breeder are you going to breed to them? Who are you to say what someone can and can't do with thier animal?

adogslife wrote:I do not applaud breeders who do not produce the entire package. A title should not be allowed on the pedigree unless ALL the standands are met.

You don't have to buy from breeders who do not produce the entire package, hey this is America, it's your choice.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:39 am

Ridge-point:
I don't get your point?
At conformation rating in the DKV the judge looks for a correctly built dog. The judge is looking for a dog who is built to perform versatile tasks.DVK judges are versatile hunters.They actually have a hunting license.

The FCI standard does not say:

"The judgement of Shorthairs in the show ring reflects this basic characteristic. "

When you need to set the tone for a judge something in surely amiss.

Do you look at the monthly mag of the GSPCA and say,"wow,now those are versatile hunting dogs."?
The dogs are bred for what's in fashion and they rarely have more then a JH,some with a SH,still this is only natural ability. No finished dogs.

Yes, I am serious. Why is this questioned?

I buy dogs that are breedable by the DKV standards.Dogs that have conformation ratings/mulitple show wins and high level hunting titles.
I don't care what others do with their dogs or where they buy them from,that's why I am part of a stricter system. What I do care about is the downfall of the GSP.Is it doing justice to the breed to allow breeders to breed poor quality dogs?

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:58 am

Oh I should have known you are talking DKS not GSPS to me that's a joke.You keep buying the dogs you like & l will do the same but register them as DKS not GSPS.

markj · Post by **markj** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:09 pm

I actually like the way DKV does things. Now if your dog isnt tested in that, it can still be bred and pups reged as FCI only. Germans dont go round and check on this

DKV reg is a higher registry, not the only registry and all german bred dogs are not all reged as DKV. I do like the KS type of dog which they are after in that venue. I have been thinking that is the only way to get a pure Shorthair these days. But that is for another discussion.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:45 pm

Mark & who ever else this may concern I have no problems with DKS their registry etc. & if that's the kind of dog you want then get a DK register it as a DK but don't register it as a GSP & then tell the GSP people that our standard is flawed. GSPS are not allowed to be registered as DKS so why should it be the other way around.

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:54 pm

adogslife wrote:Ridge-point:
I don't get your point?

Most of your arguments are really against the testing system not the conformation standard.

The American GSP is not in downfall, it is a very popular breed and there are many dogs here that are performing at very high levels.

If we are going to argue about testing systems, titles, and breeding than maybe we need to start a new thread.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:07 pm

markj wrote:I actually like the way DKV does things. But that is for another discussion.

I agree that it is for another discussion.

For those folks that have been around this board for a while we've had the whole GSPs today are not the same as DKs and several old discussions about black, that always come up each spring when a new GSPCA vote on black is being held, as a means of convincing more people that black is just a color. You'd have to be pretty new to GSPs and this board or pretty naive if you thought everyone views the issue about black to be purely about adding just another color to the standard.

The GSPCA standards were fairly well written and do a pretty good job (esp. with DNA parentage proof) of preventing a non-GSP from being registered by the AKC as a GSP. The application of the standards by show or field judges, limitations on dogs that can be bred, quantifying qualities like nose, desire, biddability, natural retrieve and what venue for testing for superior dogs is better ... those are all topics for other discussions.

What specifically needs to be added or subtracted from the GSPCA standard applied with DNA testing to prevent a bulldog or a chopped tail pointer from being registered by the AKC as a GSP?

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:14 pm

Ridge-Point wrote:
adogslife wrote:Ridge-point:
I don't get your point?
Most of your arguments are really against the testing system not the conformation standard.

The American GSP is not in downfall, it is a very popular breed and there are many dogs here that are performing at very high levels.

If we are going to argue about testing systems, titles, and breeding than maybe we need to start a new thread.

Ditto that! If you do not like AKC as an organization, please do not participate in it's events. However the question was not about the events or the organizations but THE STANDARD.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:27 pm

AMEN to the 2 above posts ! I hope this is the end of it.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:49 pm

What specifically needs to be added or subtracted from the GSPCA standard applied with DNA testing to prevent a bulldog or a chopped tail pointer from being registered by the AKC as a GSP?

Now theres something worth having added to the standards in my eyes..
All dogs and bitches must be DNA'ed before being able to produce a registerable litter

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:51 pm

The conformation standard lists attributes of a versatile hunting dog. These attributes are not required or upheld by many of those who breed. If it is written in the standard then it should be a requirement of all those who breed. Show breeders,field breeders are only producing half the product of the standard, and some do neither test or hunt.
The standard says show dog should look as tho it is a versatile hunter. The judge is looking at a dog and assuming it is a versatile hunter. The dog is then awrded a title,or points, based on a possibly false assumption. If the standard is not followed then it is flawed in allowing assumptions and awarding a tilte to those dogs who do not posses the necessary skills that define the standard.

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:38 pm

adogslife wrote:If the standard is not followed then it is flawed in allowing assumptions and awarding a tilte to those dogs who do not posses the necessary skills that define the standard.

I do not agree. It's up to the breeder to follow the standard. Breeders create good dogs, standards and tests do not create good breeders.

The NADKC breeding test is not an advanced test, the dog doesn't even have to be steady. There are many many many GSP's that could easily pass that test with no problems. I am not saying it's a bogus test, I think it's a good test, but it is not the end all be all of dog testing.

http://www.deutsch-kurzhaar.de/e-solms2007.pdf

Do you think the great breeders in germany breed for the minimum of the standard, no they exceed it. If there was no minimum testing available they would still produce great dogs.

megschristina · Post by **megschristina** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:45 pm

A dog that preforms is more important than one that looks pretty. Breeding for looks has been the downfall of many breeds, in example...the enlish bulldog. Form follows function.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:15 pm

The NADKC offers 2 breed tests. The solms is a natural ability test that is usually taken by pups around 15 months old,a dog will not be older than 22 months at the time of testing.Steadiness is not required at a natural ability test. I do not know how many GSPs could pass solms. There is more required then in any AKC test or NAVHDA test, at a young age. AKC breeders simply don't breed for what it takes to pass solms. Dedicated,experienced versatile trainers and handlers could pass most GSPs. At one point GSPs were allowed to participate in NADKC test. Overall how they did, I don't know.
I do not buy from breeders who attain the minimum allowance for breeding. And I don't require a V conformation rating of the parents.
To single out steadiness in testing in 1 demensional. A versatile dogs needs to be much more then steady,in fact many hunters do not prefer a steady dog. After the shot is more important to a versatile hunter then before.

craigburns · Post by **craigburns** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:37 pm

vzkennels wrote:AMEN to the 2 above posts ! I hope this is the end of it.

You guys crack me up. This is mr. "FF" speaking.
Is the dog chewing on a stick a AKC Shorthair?

limited out · Post by **limited out** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:38 pm

adogslife wrote:After the shot is more important to a versatile hunter then before.

Why is that more important to a versatile hunter?

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:34 pm

Can anyone name venues that are not versatile that promote tracking and recovery of wounded game?
I am not aware that in FTs dogs have their nose to the ground or that a dog that does have its nose to the ground would be prized in FTs. Upland hunters simply prize the work a dog does before the shot more then after. 12:00 tails and style.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:39 pm

Why do ugly people have kids?
Why do overweight people have kids?
Why do poor people, on average, have more kids than rich people?
Why do people still breed like we need kids to work on farms?
Why do people that had braces as kids have kids?
Why do people that failed the 4th grade have kids?
Why do people with big noses have kids?
Why do people that have a crappy temperament have kids?
Why do people that get on an online forum just to stir up a dead conversation and pick out people to harass have kids?

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:47 pm

I guess I have peddled a few if that's what you want to call it but why don't you contact a few I've peddled to & see how many have been unsatisfied .As far as beagles go I haven't owned a beagle since I was a kid so I don't know where that's coming from.Another little tid bit for you none of my dogs have ever been FF & are known for their natural retrieving ability.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:54 pm

GsPjustin,
because there are no breeding restrictions!!!!!!

craigburns · Post by **craigburns** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:07 pm

GsPJustin wrote:Why do ugly people have kids?
Why do overweight people have kids?
Why do poor people, on average, have more kids than rich people?
Why do people still breed like we need kids to work on farms?
Why do people that had braces as kids have kids?
Why do people with big noses have kids?
Why do people that have a crappy temperament have kids?
Why do people that get on an online forum just to stir up a dead conversation and pick out people to harass have kids?

If you can answer those questions, you will know why "people" breed dogs that aren't perfect.

My friend the discussion is: "Do you believe that the AKC standard for the German Shorthaired Pointer is flawed?". Do you? In what way if yes and a simple no if no. Now if you should have insight into the bigger picture as reguarding the attributes of German Shorthair Pointer bird dogs and the intention of that standard or the whole of the breed standard in it's self...then I as one would like to hear what insight that you might have. I personally beleive that the AKC standard is flawed and that the thread of this board is to openly discuss the issues. There are people that are honestly open to a realistic discussion. Possibly there could even be something good for the German Shorthair Pointer breed come out.

megschristina · Post by **megschristina** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:16 pm

craigburns wrote:
vzkennels wrote:AMEN to the 2 above posts ! I hope this is the end of it.
You guys crack me up. This is mr. "FF" speaking.
Is the dog chewing on a stick a AKC Shorthair?

Are you referring to my stickeater?

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:23 pm

craigburns wrote: There are people that are honestly open to a realistic discussion.

Are you one of them?

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:25 pm

adogslife wrote:GsPjustin,
because there are no breeding restrictions!!!!!!

That wasn't quite what I had in mind, but it can pass for a plausible answer. However, I have a question for you in response. How can you expect people to put a breeding restriction on a dog if they can't even put one on there selves?

Craig, how can you possibly say that a registry is flawed when you automatically classified GSPs as a bird dog? Sure they do hunt birds, and there darn good at it to. However there is much more to them.

I do have insight, but my insight will change nothing unless I decide to act. Personally I have no reason to, so I lack the motivation to actually change anything. I buy my dogs from a good breeder, who puts out good dogs. In both ring and field. I also enjoy playing many of the AKC's games, and all my dogs are registered with the AKC. I believe that the AKC is flawed. I also believe that I am flawed, along with many other things in this world.

However the real insight I have here, is that you appear not to be here because you want to "openly discuss" the position of the AKC standard. You appear to be here to stir up some dust because the AKC won't give you back your entry fee or your registration fee. Unfortunately some fell into you trap. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. There isn't much talk about actual GSPs going on except by the people that want to prove that there dogs are better than someone elses.

This is all just my opinion. But since we are spurting of the irrational and I am just so good at it I figured I would throw my garbage into the can to.

craigburns · Post by **craigburns** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:26 pm

vzkennels wrote:I guess I have peddled a few if that's what you want to call it but why don't you contact a few I've peddled to & see how many have been unsatisfied .As far as beagles go I haven't owned a beagle since I was a kid so I don't know where that's coming from.Another little tid bit for you none of my dogs have ever been FF & are known for their natural retrieving ability.

Our First Beagle Litter
We had our first beagle litter born on March 23rd 2009. We had a total of 5 pups of which only 3 have survived. Here are some pictures of the litter. ...

www.vzkennels.com/Site/First_Beagle_Litter.html - 27k -

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:42 pm

I have bred & peddeled 8 litters in the last 12 yrs since you are insinuating that I'm a puppy mill & my Kennel is Von Zeppelin in Ohio & I don't have a web site YET! So MR Burns I think you owe me an apology.There are a few of my clients on this forum & they are more then welcome to come forward & tell you,Mr Burns how UNSATISFIED they are with my dogs.

craigburns · Post by **craigburns** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:04 pm

vzkennels wrote:I have bred & peddeled 8 litters in the last 12 yrs since you are insinuating that I'm a puppy mill & my Kennel is Von Zeppelin in Ohio & I don't have a web site YET! So MR Burns I think you owe me an apology.

I do apologise and simply made a mistake if you are not the vzkennels advertizing Beagles. Who would of thunk it. Two vzkennels... Best of wises and I will now leave the AKC problems to those with better information than this country boy. As far as I am concerned AKC show dogs, the promoting of puppy mills and functions not consistant with realistic bird dog attributes are all detrimental to the German Shorthair Pointer breed and GSPCA and AKC are both needing a revamping if the breed is not to follow after the Irish Setter,Cocker Spaniel, Wiemaraner and Golden Retriever.

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:50 am

GSPS are not allowed to be registered as DKS so why should it be the other way around.

Well cause they originated there before being brought to America. All German dogs are reged FCI, DKV is a breed reg only for their testing system. Many great dogs didnt go the DKV route but did breed to other FCI reged dogs. Some from the hege-haus line and others.

Another point, They will let AKC dogs run in their tests (DKV) but will not allow them to be entered in the registry as DKV. So you can test your dog there and recieve scores if you want to.

I like the DKV testing the more I read about it, not only do they have to pass the field req but also must meet conformation. I tried the FT dogs, yep they hunt fine but seem to be missing something that the german bred dogs I owned seemed to have. So if I do get a DKV I surely will reg it with AKC as I wont test it in DKV for the same reason I do not FT, lack of money. I use my spare cash for hunting. Someday I hope the cash situation will ease up but with a girl in college and a boy coming up I cant be frivolous with the bucks.

I still belive black should be allowed here, for the show folks, they are running in FTs in some places are they not?

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:10 am

I'm just saying it's the old double stanard & I don't agree with it.This is one of the reasons that the color thing is having a hard time passing like Bigshooter said it's MORE then just a color issue.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:30 am

If it is more than a color issue, then what are the other issues? Excuse my ignorance.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:05 pm

ACooper wrote:If it is more than a color issue, then what are the other issues? Excuse my ignorance.

Rather than get into another long draw out flaming discussion of this issue why don't you just review this old thread: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 69&t=11048

There was at least one even more thorough thread a year or two earlier if you want to go back and search for that one also.

Have a nice day!

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:52 pm

I wasnt trying to get a flame post going...... in the mean time I have been brought back to the reality of the issues.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:07 pm

The DKV will allow AKC dogs to test????
really?

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:04 pm

[quote="vzkennels" GSPS are not allowed to be registered as DKS so why should it be the other way around.[/quote]

A GSP cannot be registered as a DK because of one simple reason. GSPCA does not have the standards that DKV does. To breed a DK both parents have to pass a hunt test, a conformation test, and have to have their hips checked. Then once the litter is born a warden has to come and check the litter to be sure it is legit. At that time the puppies are tattooed inside the ear. The reason all this is done is so all dogs are purebred and not crossed with anything, also so only the healthy and better quality dogs are in the gene pool. The tattoos are to prove that dog follows his/her paperwork which is kept with the dog for it's entire life. You take it to all the tests. This way a different dog cannot be entered in a test. I am not saying the DKV way is the answer for Americans, however I still would like the GSP standards to be changed. I would at the very minimum like to see all hips checked before breeding. I think that should be mandatory in this country. As for the AKC not registering DK's, that makes no sense. The DK is proven to be pure and of at least average genetics. I think we should be thrilled to allow them into the GSP gene pool. I know hardcore DK guys do not want them AKC registered because they feel the AKC is a joke. At the same time there are people that disagree with DKs being registered as AKC. Those are usually the FT guys. I assume this debate will go on forever. You have two ends of the spectrum debating this. I guess they will agree when liberals and conservatives agree. That's right never.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:09 pm

AKC will register them and there are many dogs registered and titled in both venues.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:25 pm

mountaindogs wrote:AKC will register them and there are many dogs registered and titled in both venues.

Yes AKC will register them. Yes there are dogs titled in both venues. However the hardcore DK guys will not use the AKC. They will register them in NAVHDA however, at least more readily than AKC.

craigburns · Post by **craigburns** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:20 pm

bondoron wrote:
mountaindogs wrote:AKC will register them and there are many dogs registered and titled in both venues.
Yes AKC will register them. Yes there are dogs titled in both venues. However the hardcore DK guys will not use the AKC. They will register them in NAVHDA however, at least more readily than AKC.

I was going to stay out of this AKC dicussion but I think that there are some here that need some support.... AKC dogs with parrot mouths, sway backs, yellow eyes, etc., can be titled dogs in every hunting dog venue that AKC offers. Dogs that can not smell, do not have any pointing instincts,no prey drive and conformation not consistant with hunting dogs can be titled as breed "champions". Now... where is there any confusion that AKC standards are flawed? How many Dual Champions are there today? How many even strive for Dual Champion today? I haven't been a member of GSPCA for many years and I can't really answer my own question...but I think I know the answer.

limited out · Post by **limited out** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:38 pm

craigburns wrote:
bondoron wrote:
mountaindogs wrote:AKC will register them and there are many dogs registered and titled in both venues.
Yes AKC will register them. Yes there are dogs titled in both venues. However the hardcore DK guys will not use the AKC. They will register them in NAVHDA however, at least more readily than AKC.
IAKC dogs with parrot mouths, sway backs, yellow eyes, etc., can be titled dogs in every hunting dog venue that AKC offers. Dogs that can not smell, do not have any pointing instincts,no prey drive and conformation not consistant with hunting dogs can be titled as breed "champions".

That's what I agree with. I like the AKC , but I wish they did their hunting tests a bit more like NSTRA. That's pretty close to a hunting situation. The showing is more politics than it is true form.

The AKC Standard does have flaws, it's not promoting a true bird dog. Just my opinion

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:52 pm

The DKV will allow AKC dogs to test????
really?

Yes, I was invited to a Solms here in Iowa and was told I could enter my AKC dog to see how she does, I would pay the fee and achieve a score but she would never be allowed to be registered in the DKV. DKV means the dog passed all the requirements to be registered as DKV, all as I posted before are registered FCI in Germany. Gee how hard is this to understand? There are DKV guys that run all venues too. Now can we get on track here? AKC only regs the dogs as being a pure bred, but I bet there are many in this country have more than GSp in em. Some will do anything to win at the games they play with these dogs. Rumors about pointer bred GSPs are not all BS. Now if only they would own up and tell we would all know too. Been around these dogs since the 60s and I can tell you there has been a change over the years in the FT bred type of dog compared to the German bred dogs I used to own. I used to deny this, but lately after some eye opening events I can say what I said. So I am wanting to go back to that kind of dog as it is what I love to hunt over. Bottom line. Gotta go with what makes you happy, if it is winning a FT title then go for it. I want to hunt, and do not care about how any dog I own can do in a FT test. Hope I dont get anyone mad at that but that is how I feel about it. There are some offspring of mine running FT now and I hope they do well for the guys that own them. Just isnt my kind of thing.

The GSPCA sets the standard so join up and vote if you really want to make a change or think the standard is out of whack. I would like to see black allowed in the show ring as well as be able to run the FT HT stuff which they can do now.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:57 pm

Just a quick note. You can join the GSPCA now but you cannot vote on this year's ballot as it has already been distributed.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:45 pm

It is stated in the rule book that only FCI dogs can run,if you say you were invited I guess you were,how did you do?
It would be a waste of time for a DKV judge to evaluate an AKC dog. A solms test is involved and would take up a lot of time for a dog that means nothing to the breeding system.Still, it is at the discretion of the test coordinator, if they need to fill spots maybe this would help.The DKV breeders and test coordinators are pretty hard core in that part of the country,you should consider yourself lucky to have an invite to solms.

craigburns · Post by **craigburns** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:47 pm

I am going to go back to the topic "do you believe the AKC standards for German Shorthair Pointers are flawed"...I know a lot of AKC people that have dogs in puppy, derby and all age. I do not know anyone that is intrested in hunt tests. It has been years and years since I have heard or anyone handling a dog to finish as Dual Champion. What national calibre dog has there been in many years since Dual Champions like Desert Dutch and Strativarias Baroque? Mike Woody, Linda Nickerson, Ruth Blanc, Bob Thompson, Greg Kiser, Ken Chenoweth, Jim West, Keith Gulledge,Joe Walker,Jeff Schiek,Mack Mabe, John Rabidou, Don Paltini, Bob Merkel, Lynn Forbush, etc. have not and do not care period about DC. Blue Max Spitfire, Heide Ho of Pinehurst, Heide's Mighty City Slicker,Bmk's Strike The Gold, Magnum's Touch of Gold, Show Times Rollin Thunder, Rawhides Clown, Dixieland Luke, Rosehill's Bilbo Baggins, Rosehill's Cosmos,Udibar's Koonas, LB Ohi Shameless,Hmk's High Plains Drifter,Hmk's Runaway Rusty and the list is endless of great bird dogs. Not one of the people that I know is interested in DC. I do not know one pro handler that is finishing a DC. I do not know of anyone period that has a dog with a show dog handler.
Aparently the show dog people do not have dogs that are capable of contending as DC. Have the show dog people just given up for hunt test and agility acredidation? Why has DC gone away. I haven't heard of a DC in years.
Again... I have to say that AKC/GSPCA standards have gone down hill drastically from what they once were.

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:12 pm

craigburns wrote: Aparently the show dog people do not have dogs that are capable of contending as DC. Have the show dog people just given up for hunt test and agility acredidation? Why has DC gone away. I haven't heard of a DC in years.
Again... I have to say that AKC/GSPCA standards have gone down hill drastically from what they once were.

http://gsp-photos.us/duals.htm

I am not even sure if that is a complete list, but yes there have been quite a few recent DC's. You don't see many NFC/DC dogs anymore, but that is because of the level of competition at the national level http://gsp-photos.us/Dual_ch/doublerun-cole.htm. The breed standards have not really changed over the years, maybe the judging has, maybe the dogs have, but the breed standard doesn't move around much.

craigburns · Post by **craigburns** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:24 pm

Ridge-Point wrote:
craigburns wrote: Aparently the show dog people do not have dogs that are capable of contending as DC. Have the show dog people just given up for hunt test and agility acredidation? Why has DC gone away. I haven't heard of a DC in years.
Again... I have to say that AKC/GSPCA standards have gone down hill drastically from what they once were.
http://gsp-photos.us/duals.htm

I am not even sure if that is a complete list, but yes there have been quite a few recent DC's. You don't see many NFC/DC dogs anymore, but that is because of the level of competition at the national level http://gsp-photos.us/Dual_ch/doublerun-cole.htm. The breed standards have not really changed over the years, maybe the judging has, maybe the dogs have, but the breed standard doesn't move around much.

I appreciate the link. There were three "latest additions". I couldn't see anywhere to know when it was they were finished. It is not the "breed standard" that has changed....it is "the standard".

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:13 am

If you mean there are not any recent NFC/DC I would agree I think maybe "tide" would be the last one? There are a couple people that post right here on this forum that have a DC, http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 79&t=17297 this link is to one of them in the brag section, Snips has a DC dog ( along with many other titles), Ronnie Sale of Free Flight Kennels has a DC, I think most would agree that Ronnie is a FT guy. These three are all recent.

craigburns · Post by **craigburns** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:33 pm

ACooper wrote:If you mean there are not any recent NFC/DC I would agree I think maybe "tide" would be the last one? There are a couple people that post right here on this forum that have a DC, http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 79&t=17297 this link is to one of them in the brag section, Snips has a DC dog ( along with many other titles), Ronnie Sale of Free Flight Kennels has a DC, I think most would agree that Ronnie is a FT guy. These three are all recent.

Thanks for the link. That dog is a nice Shooting Dog, Free Flights Bocefus. Blitzkreig's Frontier Scout is GSPCA 2006 Dual Sire of the year, is he sire of the Bocefus dog? Nice dogs and I appreciate your help.
I don't know who Bob Walker is but he has invested some time and effort with the site he has put together.

bruns333 · Post by **bruns333** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:14 am

Craig there are still several kennels that are producing DC's. Check out Odyssey Kennels, Rugerheim, UpNAdam, NMK, Walnut Hill, Walker Kennels has had some DC's don't know how recent their last one was, to name a few. It seems like about 2-4 DC's a year are being produced. Katie Tazza's UpNAdam just had a DC win the AKC pointing dog championship retreiving title a couple of weeks ago in VA. Walnut Hill's male(Fritz) was runner up at the NAGDC last year is a NSTRA champion, a MH, and a NAVHDA UT Prz II. There are still folks out there putting DC titles on there dogs and for the sake of the gsp's I hope they continue.

Are there any DK's competing and doing well in FT's? I am just asking, but haven't seen or heard alot of them competing at that level. The american system has plenty of flaws, but the CH, FC, and DC's where the best dogs on those days, not just meeting standard. Maybe the German standards of breeding and testing should be mixed with the American system of competing for the future breed. JMO
Matt

shorthairguy · Post by **shorthairguy** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:19 pm

MarkJ

AKC only regs the dogs as being a pure bred, but I bet there are many in this country have more than GSp in em. Some will do anything to win at the games they play with these dogs. Rumors about pointer bred GSPs are not all BS. Now if only they would own up and tell we would all know too. Been around these dogs since the 60s and I can tell you there has been a change over the years in the FT

Can you provide some examples of the dogs that have raised these rumors?
I have yet to hear a name from everyone of the pointer guys I know that preach this..........

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:22 pm

This really does not need to turn into pointer name dropping...I think we all know there were cross-bred shorthairs at one time. Time to move on.... :roll:

Do you believe the current AKC German Shorthaired Pointer Standards are flawed?