Puppy Contracts

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:38 pm

question for the breeders, why do you have puppy contracts or why do you not have contracts? What do you put in them? ie. incentives to do testing, first right of refusal for change of ownership, health guarantees, etc... anything else important? with the health guarantees, what are the issues that would effect the contract and are those specified in the contract and what documents ,as to the problem would you require to see, and from whom? How many months is the contract binding? How long past the end of the contract would you consider to go? for what issues? and to keep your reputation. there are alot of issues here. also how many of you wait to do a breeding until you have deposits? how many deposits?

Did I miss anything?

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:41 pm

No contracts here just my word & a hand shake if possible.If that's not good enough then I don't trust you anymore then you trust me,simple as that.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:32 pm

vzkennels wrote:No contracts here just my word & a hand shake if possible.If that's not good enough then I don't trust you anymore then you trust me,simple as that.

Couldn't have said it better.

Ezzy

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:09 pm

No contract here either. I do, however, offer a health guarrantee.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:23 pm

As far as a formal contract goes, no we don't either. However a person is unwise to leave themselves completely vulnerable to the stupidity of others. (there's one in every crowd) We make sure and send a letter included in the paperwork stating what we are and are not liable for.

I think Shady Meadows Gundogs has a very good "Gaurentee and Deposit Policy." Sorry to call you out Shawn..

MOOSE · Post by **MOOSE** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:45 pm

Being involved in two different breeds. One being a gun dog and one not I can honestly say that gun dog people could learn a lot from those in other breeds. Reason I say this is that the contracts that are used by other breeds are so in depth and don't leave a single thing out. It really protects the dog.

I wish that more people would care enough about their pups to have a contract.

In the contract we just signed for our newest addition to our family it requires that the dog get its show title, be put through at least a basic obedience class, have all health testing done (heart, eyes, hips,elbows,thyroid,patella) before breeding. The female will not have more than 3 litters of pups. The stud dog will be chosen with the original breeders help. They have a health garauntee. They have it drawn up so the dog goes back to them if we can not keep her.

Many would think this is way out there in the gun dog breed. But this contract is written for the best interest of the dog. And I have decided that if a person is not willing to sign a contract with so many expectations they are not worthy of a pup from my program in the future. I am using this contract as a building block and example for our program in the future. There are way to many unwanted dogs out there and if each breeder would step it up a bit and LIMIT the number of quality breedings they did it may help on the over population of dogs. JMO. And I know that I will get run through the rinnger for it. Oh well.

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:54 pm

I guess I am in the middle.

I shake their hand and really hope they can be trusted. But I also do say that if you want to breed the pup, gotta be 2 years old, and I have to approve the sire. Also, if the pup be sold it comes back to me.

That's a lot to ask on a hand shake though. I am coming up with a contract, the idea has just been in the back of my head. I want to make sure I do it right.

Also, I like the point MOOSE made, if a puppy buyer isn't willing to sign it, chances are that they don't care all that much if they are not willing to put a little effort into it.

Don't want to steal the tread, but have a quick question for other breeders here.... how many of you have Puppy Questionnaires??

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:02 pm

Moose I use to breed & show Dobes (NO CONTRACTS THEN EITHER) now I own GSPS,well I did then to but there is no contract that can make anyone do something they really don't want to do.I also believe if I buy a dog it is my right to do as I please with the dog,same as if I sell one that's the owners decision.I don't have to sell to some one if I don't want & no one has to buy from me.I can tell you now I would never buy from anyone who told me what I could or could not do once I own it.That's like buying a car but you could only drive it on Sunday back & forth to church.JMO

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:19 pm

In the contract we just signed for our newest addition to our family it requires that the dog get its show title, be put through at least a basic obedience class, have all health testing done (heart, eyes, hips,elbows,thyroid,patella) before breeding. The female will not have more than 3 litters of pups. The stud dog will be chosen with the original breeders help. They have a health garauntee

Do you have a limited registration until all that stuff is done????

rugeruser · Post by **rugeruser** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:17 pm

Hi Lantz,
If you would like, I would send you a copy of my puppy contract and bill of sale. I have been using them for a long time now and have found that it keeps the playing field both level and fair, for both the buyer and the seller. Over the years, I have modified the content, adding more specific items. A friend of mine, who has been breeding Griffons for years uses them and he allowed me to plagerize one of his contracts. Just send me your email and I will pass it along to you.
Regards,
Lynn

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:21 pm

I think the show title is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.Does the seller Garuantee the dog to get a show tilte?If they do then some one is full of well you know what,because no one can make that promise.Not every dog that goes in the show ring makes a CH.so if that don't happen who gets the dog do you get your money back? That contract is worthless in my eyes.That's why I have no contracts some one is lying to some one.Tell me how that protects the dog.I have given money back on a couple dogs people weren't satisfied with but I did it for the dog not the people they didn't deserve the dog & weren't taking care of them because they didn't like them.They were placed in good homes after & made the new owners more then happy & now are well taken care of.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:11 pm

Seems like a contract on a pup would be like adopting a child and the original parents adding amendments to a contract like the child must only be dressed in Versace, they may only live in a multi million dollar home, they must attend only private schools, as teens they may only drive luxury sports cars, they must only attend Harvard, they must be doctors, the original parents get to choose who the child will marry, they will choose the residence of the married couple and they will choose when their grandchildren will be conceived. When you pay YOUR hard earned money for a pup and recieve said pup the pup becomes not only your responsibility but also your ward. Much like a child you are not only responsible for their food, room and board, but also for their psychological training and well being. Does that not give the owner who paid for the pup a sense of entitlement and a say over how the pup is raised and what is done with the pup when it becomes an adult dog? It seems to me that breeders are overstepping their boundaries and only looking out for themselves and their future sales not for the individual dog. If a dog gains the titles that are mandated in the contract then the breeder uses this as advertisement and a marketing tool for their own gain. Sometimes greed is disguised in what may seem like someones best intentions for the improvement of the breed. Call it what it is a marketing ploy. In summary I agree with VZ it is my choice what I do with a dog after I buy it. If I want to dress it in a pink leotard and have it ride around on a pony in a circus that is my choice. Never would I do this but it is my choice none the less. JMO

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:50 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:Seems like a contract on a pup would be like adopting a child and the original parents adding amendments to a contract like the child must only be dressed in Versace, they may only live in a multi million dollar home, they must attend only private schools, as teens they may only drive luxury sports cars, they must only attend Harvard, they must be doctors, the original parents get to choose who the child will marry, they will choose the residence of the married couple and they will choose when their grandchildren will be conceived. When you pay YOUR hard earned money for a pup and recieve said pup the pup becomes not only your responsibility but also your ward. Much like a child you are not only responsible for their food, room and board, but also for their psychological training and well being. Does that not give the owner who paid for the pup a sense of entitlement and a say over how the pup is raised and what is done with the pup when it becomes an adult dog? It seems to me that breeders are overstepping their boundaries and only looking out for themselves and their future sales not for the individual dog. If a dog gains the titles that are mandated in the contract then the breeder uses this as advertisement and a marketing tool for their own gain. Sometimes greed is disguised in what may seem like someones best intentions for the improvement of the breed. Call it what it is a marketing ploy. In summary I agree with VZ it is my choice what I do with a dog after I buy it. If I want to dress it in a pink leotard and have it ride around on a pony in a circus that is my choice. Never would I do this but it is my choice none the less. JMO

I think that a contract does protect the puppy. I always like to produce dogs that are better than my own dogs, Trying to improve each generation, I cannot do that by hoping this person that bought a pup from me wont breed my GSP pup to an EP or Lab, I can't do that if this person that buys a puppy from me, then decides to sell it to a pound, or give it to some puppy peddler for some $$$. A contract can prevent that.

In most cases, you have good honest people. So the contract doesn't comes into play. But when something bad does come along, it's always nice to know that you were prepared and saved that dogs life. I will agree some contracts out there are rediculous.... I bought a pup a long time ago, and he did not do anything. Wasn't bright, didn't point ( he would lay down and take a nap when there was a live bird right in front of him) just wasn't a good pup. I told the breeder I wanted to return him.... well according to her contract if I did that I would have to pay some big bucks. To me that is rediculous... I shouldn't have to pay because I was sold a bad pup. So I stay away from contracts like that now... but really basic ones that just cover the basics and the pups well being I think are a very good thing to have as a breeder.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:04 pm

I think you should be able to do whatever you want with the dog after you buy it. If I want to breed it to a poodle I can. Its MY dog. If I want to run it in trials I can, if I want to show it I can, if not then thats my choice. I would never buy a dog from someone that wanted a contract from me stipulating what I can do with my dog, who I can breed it to. Thats none of their business after money changes hands. What if I want to breed to a big running all age dog, but they like close working foot hunting dogs. I would never let someone dictate to me what I can and cant do to my dog. JMO

h20fwlkillr · Post by **h20fwlkillr** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:33 pm

IMO, selling a pup under contract is more like renting than owning. It's like buying a car and the dealership telling you they are gonna repo it if you don't wax it, or put it in a car show. I feel that once something is sold, the original owner is forfeiting their rights. If one wants to maintain control over something, they shouldn't sell it, dogs included. If one does a good job of screening prospective owners, then there shouldn't be much of a problem.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:42 am

h20fwlkillr wrote:IMO, If one does a good job of screening prospective owners, then there shouldn't be much of a problem.

Yeah, and I that's like saying repo company's and foreclosure's exist in our modern world because the credit bureau's "don't do a good job of screening prospective buyers"

MOOSE · Post by **MOOSE** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:46 am

Nope we don't have limited registration. But I know for a fact that these people do inforce their contract as the original buyer of the dog did break contract and now they have gone to court and owe the breeder about $6000 per what they broke in the contract. They are the real deal. And a contract that is written up by a laywer and done right will hold up in court. You just have to be willing to put the money into it.

MOOSE · Post by **MOOSE** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:54 am

vzkennels wrote:I think the show title is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.Does the seller Garuantee the dog to get a show tilte?If they do then some one is full of well you know what,because no one can make that promise.Not every dog that goes in the show ring makes a CH.so if that don't happen who gets the dog do you get your money back? That contract is worthless in my eyes.That's why I have no contracts some one is lying to some one.Tell me how that protects the dog.I have given money back on a couple dogs people weren't satisfied with but I did it for the dog not the people they didn't deserve the dog & weren't taking care of them because they didn't like them.They were placed in good homes after & made the new owners more then happy & now are well taken care of.

Well she already is Grand Championed with the UKC. Wich is the registry she is with saying she is an American Pit Bull Terrier. So the show title we don't have to worry about. But it did say that if she didn't get it they then have the right to try and show her themselves for a bit and if she still didn't get it then she would be spayed, and we would get money back or a replacement pup.

MOOSE · Post by **MOOSE** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:05 am

I am not asking you all if you think the contract I signed was right wrong or otherwise. I feel it protects my dog. And in the future when we have a litter from our GSP female and or our new APBT female all pups will be sold this way. They will all be sold on either a spay/neuter contract or a "breeding" contract. The one we have is the breeding contract and that is something that the original breeders are still the co-owners on the dogs.

One can screen their dog buyers all they want but it doesn't mean that dog will get treated the way it should, trained the way it should etc.

I feel if there were more breeders who were responsible with co-owning any dog that may have breeding future and making spay/neueter contracts on those who you know before they ever leave your home that they have faults you don't want to have passed on that it would lessen the number of unwanted animals in shelters.

Once again this is just my opinion. And I am totaly ok with you guys not agreeing with it. No harm done. I just feel many breeders in the gundog realm breed WAY to many litters for the breeds own good and the dogs own good. Once again just how I feel. No hard feelings with those who don't agree.

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:16 am

I agree with VZ in a way, when I get my dog I want to do what I want to do with it. Since it is my puppy.... but there is aline bewteen doing what is right for the breed, and for the puppy. That is why I would not tell anybody they MUST show, trial, etc. do this, do that, etc.

These car examples are not very accurate. Because a car does not have a life, feelings, and you could do whatever you wanted witha car after you bought it and it would not affect the dealer in anyway. He didn't care nothing about that car, its a piece of metal on 4 wheels. Where as a puppy, you have bonded with, you take pride in your progeny so if someone were to go and breed it with a poodle that would be all your hard work out the window. I cannot improve the breed, but I can improve my own dogs, and their puppies, and even my "gran puppies" by having a say to the dogs they breed to.

I am still getting a contract made up and the only "catch" it has to it is if you were to sell the dog, I get to have the oppertunity to buy it back, and I have to approve of the home. Also, if you are to breed the dog then it must be 2 years old to a sire I approve of.

I feel that is protection to the puppy, and to my progeny in the future. Just my opinion here!

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:16 am

What I read in everyone of the contracts mentioned here is "I want control because I know more than the rest of you". And I can't agree with the arguement that there are too many gundog litters. As long as there are not pups that can't bve sold then I don't see it as too many. The free market will take care of the problem if we can keep someone from deciding what, who, or how many for us.

It may just be I am blind but I have yet to see a puppy better off because it was sold with a contract. But I do know a whole lot of breeders that won't buy if they have to sign away their rights and I happen to be one of them. I am not against contracts if I could see a need for one or if they covered areas that are important and could be enforced rather than just telling me what and how I have to do with MY dog when it is out in public so to speak. I can still treat it badly while at home with abuse. But even though I want a hunting dog and pet I have to take it to all sorts of events that I and the dog has absolutely no interest in. This just might be one of the best ways to keep our beloved dogs out of a loving home or an upland field that I still think is what the main market is for a sporting dog. The titles I hear about written into a contract are all for the breeder and not the least for the customer. A perfect way to watch our hunters and their dogs become extinct.

Ezzy

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:54 am

This subject just rubs me the wrong way.

Sell me the pup or don't. Period. Limited Registration, Put a ch on it, spay her or neuter him, I choose the stud dog, ect. IMO is a bunch of BS. Some type of small contract covering basics might be ok, but some of these contracts are rediculous. I mean, if you feel comfortable selling the dog to the person, then sell it. If you don't, then don't. End of story.

I will be making a breeding this spring. The only think i will ask the buyer to do is let me know if they decide to sell the dog that I might have a chance to buy it back or find it a good home.

I just think some of these breeders would ask for your eye tooth if you let them. This is just the way i feel. I don't see many pointer breeders doing things this way. It seems to me that the modern day pointer is a pretty nice animal too.

BB

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:52 am

Sell me the pup or don't. Period. Limited Registration, Put a ch on it, spay her or neuter him, I choose the stud dog, ect. IMO is a bunch of BS

I agree with this 110%

Also, if you are to breed the dog then it must be 2 years old to a sire I approve of

Lantz I disagree with you on this. The 2 year old thing is fine but to a sire of your choice? Why would I buy a dog from you that I have to get permission to breed when I can get just as good a bred pup from somebody that will let me do what I want with it?
Who's to say you know dogs better than me and should approve to what I breed?
I know for a fact I am trying to produce a different dog than what you are but does this give anybody a right to not allow me to breed?
I will never buy from anybody that has puppy contracts or limited registrations.

rockllews · Post by **rockllews** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:44 am

How well do breeders actually know those who buy their pups?

It would be nice if a handshake worked in all cases, but everyone will eventually run into a lemon (on the breeder & buyer side). If it's for the future protection of the dog, then I don't see just what the problem is. If a certain contract is too much for you, I'm sure you'll go elsewhere. For me, personally, I don't like the limited registrations and I do see a lot of contracts where the breeders do have some extreme control, yet they do have a market. -It's not me, but there are others willing to pay the extra price for limited rights.

From the beginning we've used a questionairre and contract, and I intend to continue doing so. Obviously it doesn't match up with all of your ideas, but we feel we have a lifelong responsibility for the pups we breed. If we don't think the home is appropriate, then no sale... cash doesn't mean much if the dog won't spend his life happy and healthy; the form and talking in person/phone helps us determine this. The former gives us a pretty solid idea of how our pup might be spending the rest of his life and also makes the buyer familiar with our purchasing information- it'd take the average person 10-15 minutes to fill out and read. Lastly, it helps us to better recommend a fitting pup for them, although picking is their choice. It might also make some reconsider buying from us, but that's fine by me.

Our bill of sale covers: post-purchase exam & procedure if something is found wrong within a certain period, our liability limit (price of dog), two year guarantee on hereditary joint problems (I'm going to bump this up though to give buyers a little more time to test/get results back), first right of purchase & required consent/approval to any other homes, no placement in shelter or rescue, no giving as surprises/gifts, note to inform breeder of change of address/contact info. There's also the basic expectation of provision of quality food, fresh water, exercise, veterinary care on it- those are pretty obvious requirements, but it's there anyhow and no harm done. All in all, it's a pretty simple contract. There's nothing about spaying or breeding, health testing, or training/exhibiting requirements. The only other important piece of information we hand write on it is if there are any known defects that the buyer has already been informed.

We're considering selling some pups from our next litter on a special contract with co-ownership or breeding/lease rights. I'm sure it will be at a deducted price and the buyer will have the option. I don't have details worked out, but it will be designed to protect the health of the dog and the quality of the breed. We won't be able to, at this point, keep every possible dog that might work into our breeding program.

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:18 pm

How well do these contracts work? Are you going to follow these dogs forever to make sure the contract is followed?
Are you prepared to take the legal steps necessary to make sure the contract was followed?
I am also for standing by what you breed and wanting the best for the pups but come on, limiting me as to what I can and can't do with my dog is too much for me :roll:

SD Pheasant Slayer · Post by **SD Pheasant Slayer** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:34 pm

I could not agree with Rockllews anymore! I'm not big on the idea of the limited registration either, but I really think there are a handful of expectations that should come in some sort of writing. I know most dog breeders are good people, but let's be honest, there are some shady people out there that aren't afraid to cut some corners. Take my transaction with Bruce (Almost Heaven GSP's) - now Bruce has been the absolute epitomy of a first-class breeder, but suppose he wasn't. He lives a thousand miles away - he's never met me in person and aside from some phone calls, doesn't know me from Adam (haha, pun intended). Suppose I pay the puppy price plus the $300 shipping and something goes wrong (not the dog we agreed on, bad hips, perhaps I'm a shady guy that runs a vicious pack of fighting GSP's, or any other number of things). What then? Bruce can't take the dog back without his contract that states that it's taken care of, I have no options if the dog develops bad HD at 16 months or any other number of things. I know enough of the legal system to know that most contracts won't hold up when push comes to shove, but it's better than nothing. If a breeder wants to protect a dog he/she put a lot of time into breeding, then so be it, I believe that's his right. Bruce is a good guy - I'd put money on the fact that he wouldn't sell a dog to a stranger a thousand miles away if he was worried about me being a responsible owner. That contract allows him to sleep at night and allows me the opportunity to buy a good dog from a reputable breeder without having ever met him. If you don't like the contract stipulations, then go somewhere else. The term "right to refuse service to anyone" comes to mind and I tip my cap to those breeders that take steps to assure their dogs are taken care of.

MOOSE · Post by **MOOSE** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:41 pm

Dirtysteve wrote:How well do these contracts work? Are you going to follow these dogs forever to make sure the contract is followed?
Are you prepared to take the legal steps necessary to make sure the contract was followed?
I am also for standing by what you breed and wanting the best for the pups but come on, limiting me as to what I can and can't do with my dog is too much for me :roll:

In the case of the female we bought it worked just like it was intended to. As the first owner didn't do what they had signed on to do. So the breeder did go get the dog back at no matter what the cost was to them.

For myself, yes I have followed every pup I produced on the litter we had just over a year ago. I know how they all are doing and know they have fullfilled what their contracts stated. If they didn't fullfill it I sure would take whatever steps necisary to get the pup back. And I will continue to follow the pups through the rest of their lives. I contact each owner ever y4-6 months to check in. Now the contract these pups were sold on was not as in depth as the one I am talking about in previouse posts. But the contract coming forward for any litters will be.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:49 pm

I agree with ROCKLLEWS on there needs to be a contract/Agreement of Basic comon sence. Most of us are not idiots, but some are, and they buy dogs on impulse. I don't have a "contract" per say, but like I posted earlier we have a letter stating what is expected appropriate care of the animal, and If you neglect to do so, don't come crying to me. We are not liable for stupidity, Plain and simple.

Now as far as the expectations of show, and gaining CH noteriety, and having an approved stud, I don't agree that I should have any control over, unless there was some bartering agreement like: I will sell the dog for $500 instead of $1000 if you trial the dog, or get its Master hunt test or something within a 2 year period or such.. Idunno.

I have before on a dog, restricted all breeding rights to the new owner (and they agreed to this) because I did the aforementioned and sold them the dog for about half price, and they were disinterested in breeding her anyways. However, it is unwise to not CYOA.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:21 pm

Interesting replies, didn't think it would be an issue that would elicate an emotional response. The buyers that I asked how they felt about a contract did not have a problem with them, felt it showed a level of concern for their dogs, promoted a discussion, usual health guar., some had agreement to notify if dog was no longer going to be in their possetion, usually didnt want to have their dogs end up in a shelter as an example, anything else was seen as " what is the breeder going to do knock on my door to check", and if they did there wasn't any consequences written into the contract" and if they didn't like the contract, than din't get their dog there. One breeder of GSP sells all of her pups with a limited reg. after finding out some of the breeding practices being done by some of her buyers ie. breeding at the first heat. and she said after 30 years of time expense, put into her line she wanted to have some control as to the dogs that her line was bred to and to not have others benifit of her kennel name, she always has a waiting list for her pups, if don't agree with her contract don't buy one, simple as that. So, I than called my brother to see what his contract is, expecting to hear an elaberate contract because his pups can sell in the 5 figures and what he has to go through to have his breeding dogs reg. in Germany, all he has is a health guar. covers almost everything poss., was to put down what isn't, no time frame, a quar. on ie. hip dys. is a quar. how can there be a time limit on it, heres the guar., return the dog with proof and will replace with a comp. pup. usually no exceptions, only if the dog was purchased at the high end ,the discussion may be a replacement with proof of spay/nueter, and they can also keep their dog along with getting a new pup. This has not happened with him yet, the breeders he assoc. with find that when it does the owners are not agreeable to giving up their dog, that is their choice, they do have one, he also stated that when the business part of being a breeder comes up the heart must be sep. from the head and that is where problems can arise between sellers and buyers, now having said all that, his dogs are sold with full AKC papers( only because most people who are not in the business still think AKC is the gold stanard, he can talk for hours as to what his dogs had to do to be reg. in Germany and than to be OK'd to be bred, and the first question out of the buyers mouth is "but are they AKC reg?") he feels that the owner should be able to do what ever they want with the dog ,it is now THEIRS, this is after a discussion with the poss. buyers that is on a casual level but is for him interviewing the buyer, and if something doesn't feel right even if he has a kennel yard full of pups he will politely tell them that he does not have any pups for sell, so both parties have a choice to buy and sell.

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:35 pm

Dirtysteve wrote:
Sell me the pup or don't. Period. Limited Registration, Put a ch on it, spay her or neuter him, I choose the stud dog, ect. IMO is a bunch of BS
I agree with this 110%
Also, if you are to breed the dog then it must be 2 years old to a sire I approve of
Lantz I disagree with you on this. The 2 year old thing is fine but to a sire of your choice? Why would I buy a dog from you that I have to get permission to breed when I can get just as good a bred pup from somebody that will let me do what I want with it?
Who's to say you know dogs better than me and should approve to what I breed?
I know for a fact I am trying to produce a different dog than what you are but does this give anybody a right to not allow me to breed?
I will never buy from anybody that has puppy contracts or limited registrations.

\

I don't choose the sire. I want to approve of him. To prevent you and your buddy breeding this GSP pup to a lab or poodle or whatever. Not saying you would, but other people might. Purely have the dogs best interest at heart. I don't have an issue with a contract at all if it is reasonable. I have a problem with what is on a lot of them ( must show, must trial, must bla bla bla) , and you won't find that on one of mine. It's not how many dogs that I sell that matters, it is the way I sell them. I would feel good about the sale if I knew the pup was protected. Also, the contract I am making right now doesnt include ANY of the major complaints you guys are mentioning ( dictating the breeidng mate, forcing to show, breed, limited registration) because that does not protect the puppy in any way. It just turns off prospective puppy buyers. But I will stand behind my pups 110%, and a contract will help me do so.

MOOSE · Post by **MOOSE** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:13 pm

How is limiting the number of breedings a dog can have be something that doesn't protect the dog?

How does saying in your contract that you need to approve of the mate for the dog hurting the dog or the breed? In fact that would hopefully help the breed. Especially when so many want to cross to poodles, labs, etc. If you want a truly pure bred dog and worked very hard to build your lines you would want to protect that by saying you want to aprove of the mate for that dog. Otherwise all your hard work, time, research can go down the drain. And no matter what anyone says a pup will always reflect on you as a breeder good, bad, or otherwise.

Once again I am not saying how Ifeel and believe is the only way. But limiting the number of breedings a bitch has is protecting the dog and its long term health.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:09 pm

vzkennels wrote:No contracts here just my word & a hand shake if possible.If that's not good enough then I don't trust you anymore then you trust me,simple as that.

My avatar dog was a handshake, and I didn't know a lot and didn't know the breeder, except for a site visit. Worked out great and he has turned into a friend who helps when we need it and wants to see us succeed.

Recently thought I could trust a different breeder and got a minor burn from it. Asked a lot of questions prior, and even told friends "I think I'm dealing with an upstanding person". Put a deposit down around Christmas on a particular mating. Visited website every couple days since to pine away and see when he was going to post litter publicly. Watched my check cash on 1/20. Visited site recently to discover the bitch had been bred, probably around the time my check cashed, to a different stud. Got a sick feeling and did some googling to see this new mating advertised all over the web. Confronted breeder and he apologized for me having to find out that way, but said this was a better nick. LMAO and told him to refund my money, which he says he'll put in the mail. My contract is the written names of the mating in the memo section of my check, to go along with numerous emails, so I think I'll do okay. I have no clue when he was going to tell me about the "new" mating that was probably already 3 weeks done. From his email response, it sounds like he was thinking of this other stud from the get go. I won't fault him for changing his mind on who to breed to, but he now seems a little less than honest.

I now have a deposit down with someone else, whom a lot of folks recommended to me. Should be a good one. It's just too bad I hit a bump in the road to get there. I'm sure a handshake will do fine with this one.

I guess my point is that trust is all about confidence and reliance that someone will do the right thing. How much money should a buyer risk on confidence? We all know there are people out there that abuse trust. A contract just makes things clear so as to protect BOTH parties...and makes promises enforceable. There are contracts for most purchases out there from mortgages on down, so I find it interesting that a contract seems to be a dirty word to some. I do believe most folks are trustworthy, but without a contract, there's no way to enforce those who aren't.

In regards to what's in a contract, I can't fault the seller. They spell out their requirements, whether it be limited reg/titling/stud approval/etc, and the buyer agrees to them with their signature. It's a mutual agreement, so who am I to say it's wrong?

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:32 pm

Perhaps I am being a little emotional here but if someone develops a certain line of dogs and cares that much about the line that they created then maybe they should not sell any dogs at all. Just feed 500 dogs and keep them all for yourselves. That is like an engineer at Ford or Chevy developing a new line of cars and then saying only certain people can buy them and they can only be used for certain tasks. Once the dog is bought it belongs to the puchaser just like if I buy a beer then I will be darn if someone else is going to tell me how, when, and where to drink it. It is mine. I think from a buyers standpoint this is the way most of us feel. From a breeders standpoint they believe they have certain copyrights over the name of their kennel and the pups they put out but a kennel is not just a product related business it is also a service related business and you cannot copyright a service that you have already performed for an individual in my opinion. Like if a maid came to my house and cleaned it she cannot tell me that no one else can clean my house or that she has to approve of the new cleaning service, that is ridiculous. If you want that much say over a pup that someone paid you an inflated amount for anyway then I would never ever ever buy from you. You could keep your pups until they put you in the poorhouse from feeding them. If a dog hunts poorly then yes it could be from breeding but it could just as much be from poor training and vice versa if a dog goes out and wins Ames it could be from excellent training just as much as it could be from excellent bloodlines. I think in this case breeders who are asking for strict contracts like this are overstepping their boundaries. On the other hand I would not object to a contract that made amendments for proper vet care and living conditons. That is just looking out for the well being of the pup. How would you breeders like if a buyer like myself agreed to one of your contracts, went out and won numerous championships, trials, maybe even won a national championship and then had an amendment to the contract stating that you could never tell anyone that you had sold me the pup, that the pup had come from your kennel, and could never use my champion pup as a way of promoting your kennel or your breeding practices. It would probably tick you off so now you see where some buyers are coming from. I am not saying that I could ever even begin to start field trialing. I was just using that as an example. JMHO

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:13 pm

Denise, I am pretty sure this time around the handshakes gonna be a great one....

Chip

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:50 pm

tommyboy72 wrote: How would you breeders like if a buyer like myself agreed to one of your contracts, went out and won numerous championships, trials, maybe even won a national championship and then had an amendment to the contract stating that you could never tell anyone that you had sold me the pup, that the pup had come from your kennel, and could never use my champion pup as a way of promoting your kennel or your breeding practices.

I suppose It would'nt matter too much, concidering anyone with half an intellect could trace the pedigree back to the source (sire & dam), and know within seconds of clicking on a search engine who the kennel/breeder was.

On the other hand I would not object to a contract that made amendments for proper vet care and living conditons.

I agree.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:16 pm

No use having any kind of contract unless you are prepared to follow up legally if the contract is not adhered to.

By the time you follow up on some breech , in court, you could have bought 5 dogs or taken a hunting trip to Cuba ( lots of quail, guided hunts).

All we can really count on in the end, is the integrity of the people we deal with - dog or otherwise.

Integrity seems to be in shorter supply then when i was young , so be careful.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:54 pm

Oh I know that Prairie but it keeps a kennel from using a champion dog as a marketing tool and truth be told if my dog were a champion I would want people to know. I just don't agree with some of the stringent guidelines some of these guys were mentioning. I guess it goes back to when my wife wanted to adopt a dog a couple of years ago and we went to Amarillo which is 100 miles away and our closest big city and actually went to a rescue shelter and they told us we would have to fill out a 5 page application, wait 3 days and they wanted to physically come visit our house so they could inspect our yard and my hunting dogs and they wanted us to use their vet for the shots and spaying so we just left. It just rubbed me the wrong way.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:29 pm

Tom,

Yeah, I understand.. their are some of those with stipulations that are WAY off. Luckily I have never run into any, and I won't be making any myself. However, a breeder should IMO have something in writing to at least cover themselves from people being idiots, and coming back on the breeder. It may take 30 litters worth of pups to come across one, but eventually one will.

There are always wolves masked in sheeps clothing.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:14 am

I agree with you there you will inevitably come across some inherently greedy person who is looking to bring suit on a breeder for something that was their fault or could have been avoided and I totally agree with a contract for that purpose but some of these contracts still, in my opinion are for the benefit of the breeder and his/her kennel and bloodline. It seems like more a tool to further their business rather than for the well being of the pup. JMHO

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:27 am

I have always sold via handshake and just try to screen people to satisfy my judgement. But, if I were to require anything it would be what Brett mentioned, to contact me first if the dog has to change hands and NOT to neuter the dog as a puppy. I am seeing vets getting ahold of too many nice pups and scaring people into early neuter making them scared Not to neuter because of cancer. It is rediculas. I do not sell as pets, no 1 rule. I do not give 2 hoots about someone showing them, fine if they want to, but field abilities come first and I want to see that pup on birds.

Sandy Meador · Post by **Sandy Meador** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:39 am

I have been raising Lab litters for years. My contract states that I am selling you a purebred, registered Lab that is 100% healthy at the time of sale, that has been vet checked at least twice, wormed, appropriate shots, introduced to various items (feathers, decoys, pet porters, cats, etc...), and that the genetics (hips, elbows, etc...) are good to excellent. If you decide you do not want the pup, I will find it a good home - no money changes hands for this. Once you take your pup home, it is your choice on whether to run it in hunt tests, field trials, just duck hunt or let it lay on the couch. When you give me your hard-earned dollars IMHO I have NO right to tell you what to do w/the pup.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:57 am

I never bred yet, but there certainly are a lot of crazy contract writers out there and some of them have what I feel are ridiculous terms to agree to ..

Some of the contracts I have read are very simple and straight forward and easy to understand and don't require things I personally think are rediculous..

what I consider rediculous items :

I have to track you down in 2 years to get full registration for my dog..(what if the breeder dies in the next 2 years then I spent a lot of time and money training a dog I can never breed if I want to even if he/she turns out to be the best dog in the country)

Having to hunt test or show the dog (this should be an incentive at best in a contract with a slight refund if you pass the dog in tests/or shows after all this helps the breeder show he/she is breeding quality why not make it a slight incentive to have buyers do so if they choose to)

Picking who I breed to if I breed the pup..( I may have a totally different opinion than you of what will improve the pups thrown from a breeding and the story of people wanting to breed to a poodle or something is rediculous even with a contract anyone can have an oops poodle crossing with the neighbors poodle, contract or no contract what you gonna do sue somebody cause their pup got out in heat and oops mated with the poodle down the road )

I personally like the handshake method best but a simple contract wouldn't be bad also covering basic heath care be given and guarentees of same..perhaps a refund of a few dollars if the pup passes a certain level of test or show..and the breeder get the dog back if the new owner desides to get rid of the dog to a pound/rescue or gets first dibs should the owner decide to sell the dog..These in my opinion are simple things that protect the breeder and the dog and wouldn't be crazy to sign or write if I ever decided to breed..

I seen some crazy contacts that I nearly went blind reading they had so much crap in them and I would be afraid to sign without a team of lawyers reveiwing them..
I seen one that the breeder got a free first pick puppy from the first 2 breedings of your dog after he picked the sire or dam..So that guy made money selling you the pup then made you do all kinds of rediculous stuff to get the pup titled (this just shows he is breeding quality (advertising gimmick in my opinion) after you do all the work) and then picks the sire for your dog to breed to then gets 2 puppies from your dog to sell..and people still buy dogs from that guy.. are the buyers crazy???

I do beleive encourageing people to do hunt tests or even shows is good. This promotes to the new owners working with the pups training and such.. the more the new owners work on training and such the better pups will be and the more the owners will enjoy them more and the pups will enjoy their new homes more..but requiring it is silly in my personal opinion I know many a great dog lover that train and hunt hard and take better care of their dogs than most people take care of their kids that I personally would love to own one of my dogs that have never been to a hunt test or show and to me that would be the most important thing, that the best home possible be found for the pup.. Not whether or not the new owner is going to help me prove my line.. Of corse if he/she does thats great to and it should be encouraged possibly with a slight incentive to do so.. a happy dog is one that works towards what it was bred to do and out doing what it is bred to do (hunt) and training to hunt..

I appologise if you are that guy or another crazy contract writer as I like to call them and take offence to my comments but that is just my personal opinion and I felt I would share it.. I am sure many will disagree with my opinions..

opinions are like butt cracks, everyones got one, but some are prettier than others

Bailey

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:18 pm

Very well stated Bailey

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:23 pm

What many of us are forgetting is... those here on this list are probably DOG PEOPLE, we aren't the run of the mill puppy buyer.
I do have a contract, always used for the run of the mill puppy buyers, it always states the following...

If you can't keep this dog, I must be notified (understand I can't enforce it, but I make them read that part out loud to make sure it sinks in) And in a joking way I let them know they are renting this dog for the next 15 yrs...they get it. I care about what happens to that puppy.

This puppy will not be bred untill and unless it has it's hips xrayed and is recieves at least a Good from OFA (or PennHip)

That's pretty much what I demand, on the contract. There's lots of other stuff... dog has to get vetted within so many days., if the dog if found unhealthy etc,. etc. etc. Just average cover my butt in case of stuff. Also covers the new owner in case of "stuff".

I do care where my puppies are bred down the road, and when they are bred. If someone comes to me with the idea up front of purchasing a breeding bitch or dog, then we talk.. seriously talk. What do they know, who do they know, what are their plans, why a puppy from me and from this litter? Hopefully we can come to an agreement on how it will go, if not, puppy stays here and we look for another home. Some puppies don't need to ever be bred, and most times we won't know that till they are much, much older. Just because they bought a puppy, even from the best bred litter, doesn't mean that particular dog should ever reproduce. And I state that in my contract. But, if an experienced person came to me, and wanted to buy a breeding animal with a purpose or plan in mind.. different story.

I've sent of lots of pups with people with nothing more than a handshake, but I've known them, talked to them, understand them and we agree on the direction we want to go.

Again, most here are experienced dog people, while we may not agree on all of the why's and wherfore's, I think most would agree that none of us would want our dogs out there being bred willy nilly and producing down right crap! It only comes back to reflect on us, our bitches and our stud dogs. I didn't spend the past 30 yrs working with these dogs to just turn em loose.

I have seen a couple of my old long gone dogs in pedigrees which have made me wince.

Just my opinion, your may vary!
Fuzz