scout's role in a field trial

[sweetsong]

Hi All,

What is the role of the scout in an AKC or American Field trial and what stakes are scouts most commonly used?

Thanks
Terry

[original mngsp]

This should be interesting. Where's D*ck Walters when you need him?

[R-Heaton]

In AF trials,,, in general the scouts role is to do whatever he can to make his handlers dog show better and end up in the winners cirlce. Now your next question is going to be "can he do this? Can he do that?" Yep,, he can do whatever he wants as long as he doesn't get caught.

The number one thing you have to keep in mind is your job as a scout is to HELP. So getting caught to the front, screaming and yelling at a dog from the rear, returning a dog up through the gallery,, isn't helping. To much scouting to the rear isn't helping,,, the game is at the front,,,, if the dog can't find that your not going to win anyways,,, so you might as well scout the front half and atleast put yourself in the ball game. Letting your handler know when a turn is coming up, where previous birds have been found, where a herd of deer is(keep him out of trouble),,,,, all part of the job as a scout.

A good scout out here in the west is a must,,,, its big country with real mountains and canyons,,,,one handler and one horse can't do it all. But the cardinal rule,,, a Good Scout is Never Seen nor Heard. Done right and the scouts gets zero credit, why? Because the dog was always right where he should have been with zero scouting,,,why? Remember the Cardinal Rule.

[slistoe]

All Age or Shooting Dog? It makes a big difference.

I was entered in an AF Shooting Dog hour stake once and the judge prefaced the running with a statement to the effect that "If you need to send your scout he better find the dog lost on point, otherwise you are telling me your dog won't handle kindly."

[zzweims]

The number one thing you have to keep in mind is your job as a scout is to HELP.

But the cardinal rule,,, a Good Scout is Never Seen nor Heard. Done right and the scouts gets zero credit, why? Because the dog was always right where he should have been with zero scouting,,,why? Remember the Cardinal Rule.

Bingo. And a good scouting horse is never seen nor heard either.

Aline (and her quiet brown ponies)
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[Sharon]

In AF trials,,, , a Good Scout is Never Seen nor Heard.

My understanding was that the scout had to stay behind the handler and the judges and couldn't go and look for the dog unless the handler asked the judge for permission. He definately couldn't be wandering out in front somewhere. Maybe it's different in Canada.

[slistoe]

In AF trials,,, , a Good Scout is Never Seen nor Heard.

My understanding was that the scout had to stay behind the handler and the judges and couldn't go and look for the dog unless the handler asked the judge for permission. He definately couldn't be wandering out in front somewhere. Maybe it's different in Canada.

That's because you guys run only Shooting Dog Stakes. All Age stakes the scout is given much more latitude.
But even so, if a Shooting Dog scout is sent to the back to find an errant dog, A Good Scout is Never Seen nor Heard. (unless the dog is found on point).

[R-Heaton]

"If you need to send your scout he better find the dog lost on point, otherwise you are telling me your dog won't handle kindly."

So what your telling me you better have a scout that knows where the birds are held up at and able to hook your dog and send'em into the birds (remember putting a dog onto birds isn't riding them to the exact bush it might be just moving him over into the right draw and sending him down it 1/4 mile to birds). Its a team effort,,, a handler needs to let his dog out of site so he can send his scout to look if that's what it takes to win.

He definately couldn't be wandering out in front somewhere.

Wandering???? If your scout looks to be wandering anywhere, time to find a new one. Your a cover dog gal right,, from what I read about that country, that would be a walk in the park,,,, try hiding 1500lbs of horse and rider behind the only skag juniper on the mountain. I saw ol'doc favor "ponyexpressing'it" across the crp one time tring to get to the only ravine there was with'n 1/2 mile so he didn't get caught. It helps to know the course like the back of your hand.

[Sharon]

What would be a walk in the park? Scouting because we have a lot of cover - pine rows etc. ? I think that's what you mean. I'm not familiar with the terrain you are describing. It would be very easy here for a scout to hide in the edges and handle the dog. That's why they best be behind the judge unless they've asked permission to go look for a dog that's been out of judgement for 5+ minutes ( yes Shooting Dog stakes).

[slistoe]

"If you need to send your scout he better find the dog lost on point, otherwise you are telling me your dog won't handle kindly."

So what your telling me you better have a scout that knows where the birds are held up at and able to hook your dog and send'em into the birds (remember putting a dog onto birds isn't riding them to the exact bush it might be just moving him over into the right draw and sending him down it 1/4 mile to birds). Its a team effort,,, a handler needs to let his dog out of site so he can send his scout to look if that's what it takes to win.

No, what that judge was saying was that the winning dog would have a scout in the gallery.

Now the year that Millers Kentucky Belle won the Nat. Am. Chicken Ch. - Ferrel put Ky Belle onto a carragana hedge that was a full mile in length and ended in the dry slough grass bottom surrounding a lake. The dog could move either right or left at the end of the hedge to border the lake but the course went left. Once she had established a hook onto the hedge he imperceptibly nodded to his scout who slipped out of the gallery. We hadn't rode more than a third of a mile on the high ground watching a white streak carry the hedge and move out into the bottom, sweeping left through the bottomland of the lakeshore, rimming willow patches along the way. As the dog turned left the scout appeared on the high ground past the end of the hedge. Whether the scout had anything to do with the dog making the right turn or not, his timing and position of appearance left the impression that he couldn't have - but you can be sure that should the dog have made the wrong decision, it would have been made right before very long.

[DGFavor]

What is the role of the scout in an AKC or American Field trial and what stakes are scouts most commonly used?

Used in all of 'em.

Their role is to get away with as much as they can get away with to help show the dog to it's best without detracting from the performance. It's part of the game...not saying it's right or the ideal but it's the game. I can't speak for everywhere but out in our country the fellars that seem to find the winner's circle most frequently tend to show up as a "team" of handler and scout, maybe a gallery rider as well. The goal of the team is to put one of the team's dogs on the winner's podium, doesn't matter which dog or which team member owns it. At the top of the game plan (and their is a game plan!) is scouting as aggressively and proactively as can be pulled off no matter the stake, SD or AA. The scout is also cheerleader, strategist, psychologist, the calm in the eye of the storm for his handler. When the dog's gettin' it done in a big championship, for some reason even the most intelligent of folks, while handling, can lose their mind and do the dumbest things - the scouts has to be calm, level headed, like the catcher in baseball. The scout never gives up - if the handler wants to pick up?? heck no! You're winning this thing man, let's go!!

Do I agree that's conducive to the best evaluation of bird dogs?? heck no - not even close! Add scouting to the myriad of reasons I thrash on field trials and am always harping on folks that they need to go watch these dogs perform with their own eyes. The dogs very often don't find the winner's circle doing it all by themselves. Sometimes they do and it's remarkable and memorable. Most of the time though, as the winning handler is grabbing the trophy they're also givin' the sly nod to their scout for a job well done - a job they only talk about amongst themselves back behind their horse trailer after the brace.

[Don]

As I read all this garbage it makes me wonder just what kind of dogs are being used as model's of excellence. It is quite apperaent that what is not being bred for anywhere near the top of the list is biddability, it's well down the list somewhere behind desire, independence, stamina, ect. It is a sad thing that so many people want to play the game but also want to cheat to win because the dogs they showed up with don't handle without a scout out there somewhere; double handling, and the rules be "bleep". I think in the best intrest of trialing, scout's should be eliminated or perhaps have only a judges scout for each judge.

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

Tell the truth now.

In most shooting dog stakes, at least around here, it is pretty obvious to a judge with a reasonable amount of experience if the scout is going to extraordinary lengths. In a shooting dog stake that ain't gonna get it when you have looked at dog that went throught the country and handled without heroic assistance. The difference is pretty plain most of the time.

It is one thing to go corral a dog that has zigged when the course zags, which, again around here...happens all the time. It is quite another for the handler to play pitch and catch with a scout that is out front more often that it is behind. When you see a dog come arunnin', dead from the front like someone just shot it in the butt with ratshot... I for one look for the scout in the gallery. If I don't see the scout in the gallery...I know pretty well what went down\, especially if we have a UP a little farther along on the course.

You cannot judge what you cannot see, but that don't mean you cannot have suspicions and be on the lookout for what is happening sub rosa. It also means that when you are confronted with a situation which requires you to add two plus two that you are prevented from coming up with the correct answer.

This is not to say that there are not masters of the art of scouting out there. But it is saying that if it is a shooting dog stake and the dog is in view, all the judge has to do is look behind themselves and if the scout is not there, call ahead to the handler and ask where their scout might be, since they are not where they are supposed to be. It is saying that if the dog comes boring in from the left front and a couple of minutes later the scout comes in from the right rear and their horse is all lathered up, you know there was some hard riding involved. Guess where?

The truth is, most often, the scout is scouring the countryside for a dog that is locked on point, out off the course a bit and finds the dog standing. Since the best of the trial dogs are expected to "push the envelope" it is fairly common for a top competitor to drive to the game and in the process , be "off course". After all, the "course" is an artificial human imposition on the landscape. The dog goes where the birds are and if that happens to be "off course" , that is what a scout is meant for.

All age scouting can indeed be quite aggressive and there are really a different set of expectations from shooting dog scouting, mostly due to the fact that the expectations of the dog's performance are those of a much bigger "envelope" and that the best of the all age dogs will indeed be pushing that "bigger envelope".



RayG

[Joe Amatulli]

[quote][/quote]
Doug it sounds to me that you are tired of getting your but kicked by people that come prepared! The fact of the matter is that if your dog needs to be scouted to get the to the front you are most likely NOT winning it, but if he does find the dog standing, which is his main objective you are going to be dough to beet. It is true the scout is there to help, sometime it's just holding the dog, sometimes it's getting up on top of a hill to keep an eye on the dog. But one thing is true the scout can win it or loose it for you. The scout should always put himself in a positon to help and that in not in the gallery. To many scouts have a need to announce to the world when they did something to help that dog, that is not the guy you want to scouting for you! The scout does needs to slip away and not be noticed when the dog is not in site.

At GSPCA Nationals I was surprised on how poor the scouting was, but I will say that Robbi did an assume job on finding dogs pointed, and the only time you herd from her was when she called POINT!!!!!!!!!!! I think people needed to take leasons from her on scouting and handling leasons from Keith. It is without a dought that it is a team effort and criticizing a team for being prepared because you are NOT, is outrages. WORK HARDER! BE PREPARED!

[Joe Amatulli]

Ray a judge's job is to look to the front. If you are looking for a dog in the rear or looking at the scout in the rear you are looking in the wrong direction and your job is not to assume anything, you can and should ONLY judge what you see, not what you think you saw or what the gallery told you or thier reaction to anything. That is negitive judging and has no business in trialing.

[lvrgsp]

Slistoe, Read the region 6 scandal on the whole scout deal this year?
How many CH. are won on a scout taking a dog to the front and putting em on birds?

Chip

[DGFavor]

Well Joe you just said the same thing I did but you had to belittle me somehow to do it - hope it made you feel better about yourself. There was nothing in my post that said we weren't prepared, that our dogs don't handle or we weren't the ones doing some of the winning - in fact, I tried to say to the contrary that when we show up, it's as a team with a game plan.

What I'm tired of Joe is folks like you thinking this is a perfect game and a great evaluation of bird dogs - sometimes it is, more often it ain't. Your dogs and breedings will be better when you open your eyes to that fact.

Ray - what kind of judges you got back there?? Swiveling their heads around scouring the shadows instead of watching what happens to the front??

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

I agree, we need scouts to find dogs on point, when they are out of pocket. But from the sounds of things from some of the posts here, we have come to the point where we are also evaluating the handler and scout as well as the dog.

IMO if the dog needs to "handled" by the scout then the dog isn't doing it's job. The handler is supposed to handle, not the scout. If a judge wants to bury his head in the sand and not pay attention to something he "knows is going on", then I would think that would be lazy judging. If a judge is truly a bird hunter, then he knows how most dogs handle certain parts of the country, and if a dog shows up to the front where he should be, when he was last seen going backwards 10 minutes ago, well, most of us should realize what just happened.

I thought that the AKC rulebook says that a scout needs permission from the judge to leave the gallery.

IMO trials are supposed to evaluate the dog, NOT the "team" that trains/handles them. I have seen some high profile GSP handlers run dogs without their scout and guess what? LOST DOG!!!

Scouts are supposed to be scouts, not handlers.

I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers, and I certainly don't want to take anything away from Keith and Robbi, they are an excellent "team".

Doug

[Dave Quindt]

Ray a judge's job is to look to the front. If you are looking for a dog in the rear or looking at the scout in the rear you are looking in the wrong direction and your job is not to assume anything,

Sorry Joe, but this is a perfect example of how we've let the "inmates run the asylum".

The judges' primary responsibility is to enforce the standard and the rules of the stake. The judge's job is to find the best dog flesh, plain and simple. If that means looking backwards to see the 4 outriders pushing a dog around the course, or to ride off course a bit to see that scout carrying the dog to the front, or hacking him into birds, then so be it. We are better served by placing great dogs with average scouts over average dogs with great scouts.

How do you explain to the newbie, who reads both the AKC and AFTCA rule book, and then comes to a championship and sees 3 scouts out looking for a dog and the judges ignoring it? Nothing is more damaging to the sport than the perception that certain written rules apply and others don't; it reinforces the perception that field trialing is nothing but a "good 'ole boys game".

you can and should ONLY judge what you see

Joe, if you find a box turtle sitting on a fence post, you might not know how he got there, but you sure as heck know he had some help

While judges should focus on what they see, it doesn't mean they have to turn their brains off.

That is negative judging and has no business in trialing.

Joe, it's ALL negative judging. Judging by definition is a negative event. The judges are there to protect the standard of the stake and the value of the title. If no dog measures up, then we give them the power to withhold. If that's not the purest definition of negative judging, then I don't know what is.

As handlers, me included, we all like our judges to be deaf, dumb and stupid and to look only forward and enjoy the "show". But this is, or should be, about finding the best piece of dog flesh and not the best showmanship.

If we decide that the judges job is to ignore what goes on around him, then let's change the rule book to reflect that. If we're ok letting multiple scouts carry a dog around the course, or scouts pushing the bracemate's dog off course then let the rule book reflect that. But as it stands, there are rules than apply to all participants regardless of where they are on the course, and it's the judges job to enforce those rules.

What's best for the dog breeds, and not the handlers, should be the rule of the day.

JMO,
Dave

[Don]

All right Dave, well put! The integrity of trials is dependent upon the willingness of judges to protect it.

[slistoe]

Ray a judge's job is to look to the front. If you are looking for a dog in the rear or looking at the scout in the rear you are looking in the wrong direction and your job is not to assume anything, you can and should ONLY judge what you see, not what you think you saw or what the gallery told you or thier reaction to anything. That is negitive judging and has no business in trialing.

If it is a shooting dog stake where scouts may only be discharged with the permission of a judge it is imperative that the judge maintain contact with the rear. To do otherwise is negligent in ones duty.

The judging of a dog is not as much what you see, but what you feel from what you see. It is the overall impression that the total performance leaves you with. The actions of a scout can color that impression - either rosy or blue.

[slistoe]

Slistoe, Read the region 6 scandal on the whole scout deal this year?
How many CH. are won on a scout taking a dog to the front and putting em on birds?

Chip

Did you notice you used the word "scandal" in that sentence?

[lvrgsp]

Yes I did notice, let me rephrase that, Slistoe did you hear the incident at the reg 6? Scout having other handlers dog leashed and the supposed heart attack, after said scout to be found in front of judge, gallery?

Chip

[Sharon]

on second thought

[myerstenn]

It is the scouts role to find the dog to the sides or rear when there is a call fron the handler or judge to do so, that could mean that the dog went up a treeline and didnt come back or missed a turn when the course veered or the dog went over the hill , pointed a bird and didnt come back. I dont personally care if a scout wants to outride of to one side or the other and iam not real particular about him trying to turn a dog to the front by trying to get his attention as long as its behind the the 9 to 3 line . There is nothing wrong with a scout assisting the handler as long as its done in the proper prospective and limits . As for a bevy of scouts out trying to find, corral,and carry a dog to the front and put him on birds or run over another handlers dog because its doing a great job THATS BS and should be severly penalized. Obviously people who do this are more worried about a paycheck than the term sportmanship. Those kind of people get what they deserve in the end. Scouts out front should never be tolerated ,I dont care if shooting dog ,all-age fdsb or akc. For you folks that think good handling skills and comroderie between handler and animal dont add to the overall perfomerance , think again

[RayGubernat]

DG wrote:

"Ray - what kind of judges you got back there?? Swiveling their heads around scouring the shadows instead of watching what happens to the front??"

Not exactly Doug, but I have seen a bunch that know a bit about how the game is played. Nobody has to say "batter up" when scout and handler are playing pitch and catch with the dog. If I know that the only wet spot on the course is a swamp that is dead to the front, nobody has to tell me where the scout has been when I see a muddy dog come flying in from the front and shortly afterward, see a lathered up scout horse with mud spattered on the horse's legs and underside. Just because you cannot and should not judge what you cannot see doesn't mean that you turn your brain off to what there is to see.

And I never said that a judge should make a decision on what they thought a scout did. That would not be negative judging...that would be judgement by inference...which is even worse. However, if you suspect something, it does tend to sharpen your focus. If you watch and wait, it'll happen again, often as not. Just like if you see a dog moving into some cover and then see a bird in the air, but didn't see the dog bump it, so you have to assume a stop to flush. If the dog did boost the bird, it is a near certainty that it will take out the next one, so all you need to do is keep your mouth shut and watch close. Most often the dog will slit its own throat. And yes...in a shooting dog stake, excessive scouting does in my opinion, detract from the overall performance.

I do agree wholeheartedly with Joe on one vital point... if your dog has to be heavily scouted and brought in from the side or shot to the front in a shooting dog stake...you probably ain't makin' any money.

The scout's primary job, in a shooting dog stake, is to find the dog on point. Secondary job is to keep an eye on the dog when the handler cannot, becasue the handler must stay more or less on course. Most of the one's I've seen do just that.

RayG

[Sharon]

"the dog will slit its' own throat' quote Gee Ray. Can we be a little less dramatic.

[Hotpepper]

A man who has ran and won the most championship titles of any dog in history. The dog was handled by the same man in all of them, this seems to me to be telling a winner how to win. Dave, you are great at the books how many one hour horseback championships have you won. How many horseback trials have you won?

Unfortunately Joe, Doug is very prepared when he comes in the parking lot, you missed on that one.

Hard not get get involved as I normally stay away on these deals, but some folks need to get a dose of reality and how things really are.

If you violoate the rules and get caught, TO THE FRONT, I'm sure you will try harder the next time not to get caught. If you have neveer judged a championship please give us who have a break.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Jerry

[Joe Amatulli]

Thanks Jerry!
Ray now that makes more scents, but the judge has no business trying to judge the scout or what happens behind him.
Dave I haven't seen too many multible scouts in my day, not saying I haven't, but you know what.....when I did those dogs didn't win.

by myerstenn on Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:48 pm
It is the scouts role to find the dog to the sides or rear when there is a call fron the handler or judge to do so, that could mean that the dog went up a treeline and didnt come back or missed a turn when the course veered or the dog went over the hill , pointed a bird and didnt come back. I dont personally care if a scout wants to outride of to one side or the other and iam not real particular about him trying to turn a dog to the front by trying to get his attention as long as its behind the the 9 to 3 line . There is nothing wrong with a scout assisting the handler as long as its done in the proper prospective and limits . As for a bevy of scouts out trying to find, corral,and carry a dog to the front and put him on birds or run over another handlers dog because its doing a great job THATS BS and should be severly penalized. Obviously people who do this are more worried about a paycheck than the term sportmanship. Those kind of people get what they deserve in the end. Scouts out front should never be tolerated ,I dont care if shooting dog ,all-age fdsb or akc. For you folks that think good handling skills and comroderie between handler and animal dont add to the overall perfomerance , think again

Couldn't have said it any better.

Doug don't be so thin skinned you do plenty of attacking yourself and besides you are taking both sides of this thread.
And the rest of you this is not a perfect sport, but it's a great and honest sport, are there people that push it, absolutly, do these people do a lot of winning absolutly NOT! There is another part of the AKC rules that you are egnoring, the judges are incharge.
The bottum line is that scouts do need to do what ever they need to do to help that dog win WITHOUT LOOSING IT, but you know what it's up to the handler to make sure, both in training and in handling that the scout does not have to do anything other than hold his horse and dog.
Why is it that when you don't win it's because of anything else other than you just got beat!
Like I said WORK HARDER, BE PREPARED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[huntindog]

As a relative newcomer to FTs, I noticed right away that the scout thing is the biggest joke in the sport. Most truely believe that doing whatever is necessary to help a dog win is fine,,,,so long as as the scout isn't caught doing it.

I would be in favor of eliminating scouts. Then we would restore honesty to the sport, and ultimatly end up with better dogs, which is SUPPOSED to be the goal of FTs.

Of course I realize that ain't gonna happen.

On a related note. I believe that judges should try to be aware of everything that is happening in a trial. Not just what is happening,or not happening in front of them.

I once watched an AA brace from the starting line, in which a NFC was WAYYY behind and chasing birds. Everyone in the field was concentrating on trying to find the dog to the front. With my optics, I watched this dog for quite awhile having a good ol' time acting like a derby dog. Then it dissappeared into the trees and a little while later showed to the front. If anyone had glanced to the rear, they would've seen what I saw.
The dog won.

[Greg Jennings]

Less personal, more informational, please. Also, I'd appreciate it if people would take the time to actually read a post before replying to it.

[jakemaster]

Less personal, more informational, please. Also, I'd appreciate it if people would take the time to actually read a post before replying to it.

Amen! Will do!

[R-Heaton]

As I look back at the original question "What is the Scouts Role in a Field trial". I gave my opinion there is no sides to be taken?

Doug don't be so thin skinned you do plenty of attacking yourself and besides you are taking both sides of this thread

Maybe the better answer would have been the scouts role is hustle up there when the handler calls his dog into water/or pointed to hold his horse. Anything more than that is cheating. Trialers that have been around want Doc on there team, the trialers that complain about the scouts are ones that either don't have a good scout or their scout got out scouted. Right wrong or indifferent its part of the game.

[Joe Amatulli]

the trialers that complain about the scouts are ones that either don't have a good scout or their scout got out scouted. Right wrong or indifferent its part of the game.

Rich I was begining to get worried adout you guys out there, but that is probably the most intelligent statement I have herd on this thread. The people that don't have or understand are the ones that complain the most and think it should be changed. Like I said COME PREPARED because you know what I and many others are!!!!!!!!!!!

[original mngsp]

the trialers that complain about the scouts are ones that either don't have a good scout or their scout got out scouted. Right wrong or indifferent its part of the game.

Rich I was begining to get worried adout you guys out there, but that is probably the most intelligent statement I have herd on this thread. The people that don't have or understand are the ones that complain the most and think it should be changed. Like I said COME PREPARED because you know what I and many others are!!!!!!!!!!!

Rich and Joe. Well put guys. There are a few gray areas in trialing that arent real clear until you get involved more in the game, the role of the scout being just one. It's somewhat unfortunate that this gray area can scare away a lot of new comers before they stay around long enough to understand the nuances of the game.

But with 100+ years of tradition of field trialing in this country it has developed as it has and is what it is.

[myerstenn]

Isnt that pathetic, 100yrs of tradition and 50% of the population still hasnt figured how and what scouting is all about. Next thing you know someone will writing down the Boy Scout motto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[R-Heaton]

Well Sweetsong,,,, is that clear as mud for ya?

[dan v]

Naw...clear as the big blue sky. He'll just not go to a horseback FT...capiche?

[R-Heaton]

Wyndancer,,,, guess I don't capiche? Why isn't he going to any horseback trials? The question was about the role of the field trial scout not what wins championships,,, by all means if a handler can show up cut his dog loose and have him lay out there to the front in front of God and everybody, look good doing it and find a bird or two,,you'll flat wear'em out in the SD circuit. Have to remodel the house for the trophy room.

Its fun to relive some of the "ponyexpress moves" but some of the best help I have ever recieved from my scout was him hanging back 50 yds so when I went down into a draw he could be my eyes and tell me where to the front the dog is when I came back out,,, and nothing better than hear him squaller "POINT",,, its nice to have a second set of eyes out there.

[ElhewPointer]

It's like stealing signs in baseball. Everyone does it, it isn't right, if you get caught you'll get a slap on the wrist, and you'll figure out how to do it better. Stealling signs in baseball is wrong. Is it a part of the game? Yes. It is what it is.

[Joe Amatulli]

I capiche very well! Rather than trying to take a side on this let me say that scouting, as is much about feild trialing, one of those things that either you understand or you don't and is some what difficult to explain, because it is full of exceptions. Can the scout double handle, no but if it is not effecting the preformance it's tolerated. Can the scout be up front NO, I will throw you out, but some judges look the other way. Can a scout put a dog on a bird, it happens, but I will order you off the grounds. Are there cases of multiple scouts, sure, but I can't ever remember anyone winning that way. Can the scout win it for you, most likely not, but he sure can loose it for you. With all the championships that I have won I will say that I don't think I can recall the scout winning for me, but I will say that the scout helped not to loose it.

To many handlers come to the line and are looking for a scout. I know who is going to scout for me before I pull into the parking lot, and I can say that when I didn't, I didn't win. You need someone that knows you and your dog, knows the grounds and how to scout. That is why I say be prepared! Some places the scout can help more than others, Boonville is a great example of, the scout better know the grounds. Wye Island is just the opposite all the scout can do for you there is hold your horse.

A simple definition of a scout, someone that stops you from loosing!

Elhew you got that right!

Rich the greatest sound in feild trials is POOOOINT by the scout, I get goose bumps just wrighting about it! And again as you put very well the ones that complain the most are the ones that just don't get it.

[myerstenn]

quote="Wyndancer"]Naw...clear as the big blue sky. He'll just not go to a horseback FT...capiche?[/quote] You obviously didnt read my post on the previous page. Its a great game and I love every minute of it!!!!!!!!!!

[Hotpepper]

A point called by the scout up that draw or ditch that the course starts bending the other way is a good as it gets. It will cause a real dog person to get the bumps and hurry to see what is going on.

I have seen 2 national championships won when the person driving the dog wagon called point and had to go get the gallery and handler. Not perfect but it is the way it is. Handlers will now get better with the new GPS gadgets as they handler in training will get to know what the dog is doing rather than shocking or calling.

Been doing this horseback stuff for 20, while riding an allage behind Slick, only needed to finish and no more birds, I had seen enough and was going in as they swung by the back of the clubhouse, they ride away and I make a right turn and bang, there is Slick 100 yards away behind a tree line, 2 tree lines over was the best scout in the country looking for him. Called the scout over, took him off point, around the side of the course and the front where he showed and won the National German Pointing Dog allage.

The scout does what is necessary to show the dog in the best circumstances. Right, wrong, or whatever, that is what you do. Good scouts are worth their weight in gold; Favor, Hoke, Barber, and Rob Creaney and Robbi are as good as they can be. Jeremy Stoltz won several for us when my dog was out west.

Every time Rob Creaney scouted for both my old dog and the present, we won. No way to estimate.

Jerry

[jakemaster]

I capiche very well! Rather than trying to take a side on this let me say that scouting, as is much about feild trialing, one of those things that either you understand or you don't and is some what difficult to explain, because it is full of exceptions. Can the scout double handle, no but if it is not effecting the preformance it's tolerated. Can the scout be up front NO, I will throw you out, but some judges look the other way. Can a scout put a dog on a bird, it happens, but I will order you off the grounds. Are there cases of multiple scouts, sure, but I can't ever remember anyone winning that way. Can the scout win it for you, most likely not, but he sure can loose it for you. With all the championships that I have won I will say that I don't think I can recall the scout winning for me, but I will say that the scout helped not to loose it.

To many handlers come to the line and are looking for a scout. I know who is going to scout for me before I pull into the parking lot, and I can say that when I didn't, I didn't win. You need someone that knows you and your dog, knows the grounds and how to scout. That is why I say be prepared! Some places the scout can help more than others, Boonville is a great example of, the scout better know the grounds. Wye Island is just the opposite all the scout can do for you there is hold your horse.

A simple definition of a scout, someone that stops you from loosing!

Elhew you got that right!

Rich the greatest sound in feild trials is POOOOINT by the scout, I get goose bumps just wrighting about it! And again as you put very well the ones that complain the most are the ones that just don't get it.

Wow, when you dont take sides and dont jump on people you make alot of sense, well said

[sweetsong]

Well, I not sure if it's clear or not. I asked the question because I wanted to know and because I am relatively new to the field trial game, only running in AKC walking trials so far. I'm learning trying to ask question and observe as much as I can. I currently do not own a horse so as much as I would like to watch a number of braces, it's hard. Is scouting common in AKC gun dog horseback trials?

Thanks
Terry

[jakemaster]

Sweetsong dont worry about it too much. Just keep reading thru the stuff here and you will get some good info most of the time. Some forget why us new people ask questions. keep going to trials most out there are quite helpfull. In fact my first trial was at mid carolina and the folks there taught me alot the first day there. I got so many pointers and advice from everyone there even some pro's helped me out.
Scouting is common in all horseback trials and IMO its a must especially if you are new to game. IMO scouts are another set of eyes for the handler and seems your primary goal is to help keep dog on the course and moving towards the front. If the dog goes off to the sides and points a bird the handler and judges may bybass him and not see him the scout must find him and if he is on point let them know if not get him back on course. I know its basic outline but it sounded like you were asking for that not all the fine details that make a great scout. Hope this helps and be sure to find a club near you and get to know the members they can help you alot. Some may let you ride a horse so you can watch.

[R-Heaton]

Sounds like something a guy that puts birds in the bag day in and day out wouldn't want to be involved in....

Not at all,, another cardinal rule, no trialing while bird season is going on. If you can consantly put birds in your bag with your dogs I bet they could compete at any level you so chose.

Joe,,, that scouting to the front thing. To discuss over the computer in words is tough,, cause what your thinking the front is different than what my interpretation of the front is. Long straight 5 mile course up a valley,,, pretty hard to scout to the front. But lets say this,,, your making an hour loop around one mountain counter clockwise starting at 6:00. 15 minutes into it your scout has gained some elevation so he can see but he's way back,, and the dog heads off toward 3 oclock up and over the top,,, you send the scout to see if he is on point,,, all legal so far. takes him 10 minutes to get the dog by then you are 12 oclock and he is in the front. No scout worth his salt would bring the dog back over the top and up through the back of the gallery,,,, he should hold the dog up and send him to you or send him to the direction of some known birds. Thats how alot of scouts end up in the front,, not because they raced by everyone but what started out as a sideways move because of course change put the scout to the front.

Double Handling,,, Not sure what that is. I see this alot in fact saw it at the California Bird Dog Championship the other day. Jerry Lewis calls point we ride up he is up and down this hill trying to locate a bird can't do it (unproductive) but winds himself (he's 74ish) he know's his dog is doing a nice job and doesn't want to put himself any further behind so the scout Rich Robertson takes the dog onto the front. Jerry catches up and they trade off? Is that doubling handling?

[R-Heaton]

Joe,,, that scouting to the front thing. To discuss over the computer in words is tough,, cause what your thinking the front is different than what my interpretation of the front is. Long straight 5 mile course up a valley,,, pretty hard to scout to the front. But lets say this,,, your making an hour loop around one mountain counter clockwise starting at 6:00.

Just re-thought my post,, your a back east guy, my point was you know better than I how easy it is for the side to become the front. I have seen pics of your guys's courses they look like a slinky sometimes.

[Greg Jennings]

Double Handling,,, Not sure what that is. I see this alot in fact saw it at the California Bird Dog Championship the other day. Jerry Lewis calls point we ride up he is up and down this hill trying to locate a bird can't do it (unproductive) but winds himself (he's 74ish) he know's his dog is doing a nice job and doesn't want to put himself any further behind so the scout Rich Robertson takes the dog onto the front. Jerry catches up and they trade off? Is that doubling handling?

Not the way I hear it talked about.

[Joe Amatulli]

Rich there is no dought that the coarse can put the scout to the front, the judge should take that into concideration and that is not what I am saying. Your other example, is scouting to the front and shouldn't be tolerated, but to often is. Puting a dog in heel or throwing a rope on him and dragging to the front is another matter, these things happen, but it's been my experence that when the scout needs to do that, they rarely win, but it happens!

The double handling is screaming at the dog to get him to come with you, what you discrided is just being nice and would have been approved by the judge. Remember the judge's word is everything and in AF gentleman are gentleman untill they prove they are NOT.