At what age to use physical reprimand?

jb45 · Post by **jb45** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:37 pm

I am currently working with my second weimaraner pup who is now 14 weeks. I have been utilizing the techniques spelled out in Gun Dog by Richard Wolters. After reading the manual, my main question is at what age of the pup should the physical reprimand be utilized? The "thrashings" as he identified in his book seems to be a little excessive when considering the size of my pup. Can anyone help a novice trainer looking for direction?

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:56 pm

The key is to do just enough to acheive your desired goal. And I've hear alot of people say when a dog goes vocal you've gone to far.

So IMO its not an age thing,,, its an amount of pressure thing,,, small young dogs just light'n up on them, a flip on the nose, a swat with a newspaper etc,,,,, as they get older you can bump them up to a baseball bat and a knuckle sandwich.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:03 pm

I'd take that "Gun Dog" and use it to light the next fire. Too many flubs there.

Recommend you invest in the Tarrant/Smith "Best Way Train Your Gun Dog, the Delmar Smith Method" and buy Puppy I and II DVDs from Huntsmith.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:05 pm

I have found Wolter's techniques to be out of date and less than impressive compared to what else is out there. Personally I do not know what he means by thrashings but I dont strike my dog. I do use physical pressure at times when I have a dog that is getting out of hand. Like the other day I had my 18 months old GSP get out of the kennel. Now she is a very well trained dog and listens very well but there were some events leading up to that moment that got her motor running high. SO when she wouldn't come when I called I hid and waited for her and grabbed her, and turned her on her back and twisted her ears. It wasn't so much about pain but more about submission. If a grown, mature, trained dog breaks and busts a bird, I grab them by the ear and take them back to where they made their mistake and make them woah there until I release them. Like has been said. Its more about pressure than pain.

Now that being said. I would reserve anything but play training for a dog until they are about 6 months old. Then I start doing some woah drills, and actually enforcing the "here" command rather than just rewarding it.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:07 pm

jb45 -

Please don't take this the wrong way, but...there are lots better training manuals than the one you are using. It might be a good idea if you broadened you horizon just a bit.

Anyway, with a pup of that age a physical rebuke can be picking the dog up by the loose sking of its neck(like momma might do) and a quick shake or two, probably best coupled with a stern "NO!" I personally would reserve that kind of rebuke with such a yong dog for something like biting, which I just will not tolerate at all. actively play train my pups until they are about six months old. I will start doing heel/whoa drills with a 4 month old using a version of the Smith "Wonder lead" and will begin to work on "come " with a checkcord at about the same timeframe.

But mostly we play and go for walks,

RayG

jb45 · Post by **jb45** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:17 pm

Thanks, I greatly appreciate the advise. The weim that I am training seems to be on target except for the kennel. I not sure if it is a weim thing, but when I command him to the kennel he takes off running from me. That's why I have considered reprimand. The other commands were much easier to teach. So my question is, is this a citable offense for a 14 week pup. I have always been told that weimaraners have extreme difficulty in being keep secluded from their owners. Any suggestions?

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:36 pm

I would say ... that supposed manual for "kindling" in your fireplace. There is a big difference between "thrashing" and "physical correction". Is there actually someone out there that promotes beating down your pup as an effective training method?? WOW!!! I understand that there are instances , but a thrashing would be when there is an extreme situation. JMO.
My older gsp absolutley refused the kennel and it was akin to a 4 round cage match when it was time. My youngest went in with no problem, but within an hour or so, well lets say he must have a little "houdini" in his bloodline. I have never seen this type of destruction on a hard shell kennel in my life. A very wise man gave me some great advice on how to get the dogs to "want the kennel". Teach them that it's a good place to be. I can tell you this, they both go in on command, and I have not needed to replace or reinforce the structures since. This was a patient 3 week process, but it worksThey now go into their kennel on their own for a little down time. Not once was there a need for any "thrashing". There are many ways to accomplish a task, and there is most certainly non-abusive methods to achieve the same result. Maybe not exactly the same result as you have a better adjusted dog thats not cowering at the site of the so called "trainer".
Bill L.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:01 pm

Nipping and mouthing at any age, I grab the muzzle - firm enough to make my point but not firm enough to make pup cry. There are other things they can gnaw on .
When they are older I grab by the scruff of thr neck ie "Off the couch!" and the dog just looks at me.
I also use an earpinch for some things.

I never hit with anything. I think it can make your dog fearful when you approach him/her. I don't know why grabbing a muzzle is all right to the dog but hitting is not. Just my experience.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:16 pm

Yep I would just use that book for kindling also! I read about 1 chapter of it after recieving it as a gift and was disgusted by the methods used. I never "thrash" my dogs. I use methods like Momma dog would use.

Feed your pup in his crate. When you put pup in crate give him a small treat and tell him "kennel" in a happy tone. I also reward the pup when he goes in on his own during a training session (even if it is just two front paws) with a small hotdog slice. After a while when pup starts offering behavior of going in on his own then start saying the word "kennel" and giving the treat.

NEVER use the crate as a place for punishment. The crate should be a happy wonderful place for your pup to go to much like a wild dog's den would be.

When pup is mouthy I just firmly grasp his muzzle and let him bite his own lips. Pup soon learns that being mouthy is not acceptable. I have 10 week old pups and they have already learned that biting me is not acceptable behavior. When they are older and do something not acceptable I also grab a lip and give a shake. I also used the above methods for crating with them and they love the crate.

Relax. Let your pup be a pup. At 14 weeks just let your pup have fun and explore his surroundings. He has his whole life to become a good gun dog. I don't put pressure on my dogs for actual "training' until they are almost two years old!

Is your pup living in the house with you? Weim pups do best being house dogs and being close to their family.

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:35 pm

I agree. You can put "pressure" on to produce good results without a thrashing, thats a fact. I also have found that my gsp's spend upwards of 3 months on the road training & trialing, and they are awesome in the house. You take a dog that has spent 3 months basically on the chains or in the kennel and they are very happy and content to be in the house ,curled up on your lap. I have heard pro's & con's with house /no house as it pertains to good mannered trial dogs. Honestly, I would never leave my dogs outside & kenneled. They are very happy & content while in the house, and I have not seen anything in the field to change my mind. I'm not saying that there haven't been moments..........still trying to cover for the dogs since the rack of ribs disappeared from the grill last month. The wife doesn't find the same things funny I do, I guess !!!

Sad thing is ...I believe the two of them thought the whole caper out as a team, scary.
Bill L.

jb45 · Post by **jb45** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:07 pm

Pam/Bill, I assure you that my pup is a house dog and has plenty of interaction with the family. I should also clarify that my version of a kennel is a metal cage in my basement. I have had success using treats to persuade my pup to go into his cage, but I am afraid he will require treats when deciding to obey other commands. After practicing last night with the kennel command, we went back to sit-stay-come-whoa where he kind of regressed a bit. Hence my apprehesion to using treats as reward. We have also been taking walks on my farm under the care of a leash. At first he typically refuses to go, often trying to get back to the warmth of the house. Only after we get away from sight of the house does he finally heal and begin to pay attention to his surroundings. I've noticed that he does a lot of shivering while were out when temps are above freezing. It that typical? Any other advice on other things I should be working on in the field at this point?

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:29 pm

jb45 wrote:Pam/Bill, I assure you that my pup is a house dog and has plenty of interaction with the family. I should also clarify that my version of a kennel is a metal cage in my basement. I have had success using treats to persuade my pup to go into his cage, but I am afraid he will require treats when deciding to obey other commands. After practicing last night with the kennel command, we went back to sit-stay-come-whoa where he kind of regressed a bit. Hence my apprehesion to using treats as reward. We have also been taking walks on my farm under the care of a leash. At first he typically refuses to go, often trying to get back to the warmth of the house. Only after we get away from sight of the house does he finally heal and begin to pay attention to his surroundings. I've noticed that he does a lot of shivering while were out when temps are above freezing. It that typical? Any other advice on other things I should be working on in the field at this point?

IMHO the cage/crate should be in the house. Bedroom, family room, kitchen for the best results. You will develop a much stronger bond with your dog if you keep him close by in the house.

Relax on the training. 14 weeks is a baby. He's much too young to start ANY sort of stay, whoa, heeling training! You are putting way too much pressure on this puppy. You are going to take any independence that your puppy has right out of him. LOL Ask anyone on this board who has met me and they will tell you that my dogs are practically hellions for their first year of life. I just make them so that they are livable in the house.

jb45 · Post by **jb45** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:41 pm

Pam, reason for the crate being in the basement is because of the housetraining. We leave at 7, get home at 5. you can imagine the smell of his crate by this time. We have to bathe him each nite because he is a mess when we get home. I think he is doing better though, he recently slept throught he night without needing to go out. maybe eventually we can move to the upstairs.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:01 pm

jb45 wrote:Pam, reason for the crate being in the basement is because of the housetraining. We leave at 7, get home at 5. you can imagine the smell of his crate by this time. We have to bathe him each nite because he is a mess when we get home. I think he is doing better though, he recently slept throught he night without needing to go out. maybe eventually we can move to the upstairs.

Is there someone who can come and let him out to potty during the day??? You are actually teaching him that it is OK to soil the crate by leaving him in it while it is soiled. At 14 weeks he can only hold himself for about 3.5 hours at a time.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:06 pm

sorry - error

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:08 pm

jb45 wrote:Pam/Bill, I assure you that my pup is a house dog and has plenty of interaction with the family. I should also clarify that my version of a kennel is a metal cage in my basement. I have had success using treats to persuade my pup to go into his cage, but I am afraid he will require treats when deciding to obey other commands. After practicing last night with the kennel command, we went back to sit-stay-come-whoa where he kind of regressed a bit. Hence my apprehesion to using treats as reward. We have also been taking walks on my farm under the care of a leash. At first he typically refuses to go, often trying to get back to the warmth of the house. Only after we get away from sight of the house does he finally heal and begin to pay attention to his surroundings. I've noticed that he does a lot of shivering while were out when temps are above freezing. It that typical? Any other advice on other things I should be working on in the field at this point?

I'm getting the impression that you may be moving too fast. Just my opinion but "sit,stay, whoa" is a lot for a fourteen week old pup.He is a baby and has the attention span of a child.
If it's too much that would explain his not listening and regression.
It sounds like you are having regular training times for this. How often and how long?
Much better to integrate the commands into your daily activities and make it FUN.

It's unusal for an owner of a 14 week old pup to ask about physical reprimands.
I think you need to lighten up and not let yourself be tough and demanding on this pup. JMO
Just something to think about.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:28 pm

jb45 wrote:Pam, reason for the crate being in the basement is because of the housetraining. We leave at 7, get home at 5. you can imagine the smell of his crate by this time. We have to bathe him each nite because he is a mess when we get home. I think he is doing better though, he recently slept throught he night without needing to go out. maybe eventually we can move to the upstairs.

Between having the crate away in the basement and his having to go to the bathroom in his own den/bed--that's your problem. It's probably not very encouraging to him to enter the crate, when he knows he's going to have to be in there soooo long alone and sit in his own potty. Ten hours is long enough for an aged dog to have to hold it. Do you live in a warm weather region, where he could have a small outdoor kennel with doghouse while you're gone? Or at the very least, have someone come over to let him out for 15 minutes? Could be a retired person, neighbor, schoolkid. IMO he really needs not only to potty, but a break from the crate to stretch and run. Not trying to be mean, but out of 24 hours, how many is he spending in the crate between your work hours and your sleep hours? Denise

Mike Clutter · Post by **Mike Clutter** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:36 pm

when did having a dog get so hard?????

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:32 pm

jb45 wrote:Thanks, I greatly appreciate the advise. The weim that I am training seems to be on target except for the kennel. I not sure if it is a weim thing, but when I command him to the kennel he takes off running from me. That's why I have considered reprimand. The other commands were much easier to teach. So my question is, is this a citable offense for a 14 week pup. I have always been told that weimaraners have extreme difficulty in being keep secluded from their owners. Any suggestions?

I haven't read this whole thred but your dog doesn't kennel because your not in position to enforce it, even gently! When you command kennel, have him on a leash or check cord. Then he won't be able to take off running on you! Put yourself in position to enforce the commands you give. When you remove the leash or cc to put him in there, hold the collar.

jb45 · Post by **jb45** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:38 am

CherrystoneWeims wrote:
jb45 wrote:Pam, reason for the crate being in the basement is because of the housetraining. We leave at 7, get home at 5. you can imagine the smell of his crate by this time. We have to bathe him each nite because he is a mess when we get home. I think he is doing better though, he recently slept throught he night without needing to go out. maybe eventually we can move to the upstairs.
Is there someone who can come and let him out to potty during the day??? You are actually teaching him that it is OK to soil the crate by leaving him in it while it is soiled. At 14 weeks he can only hold himself for about 3.5 hours at a time.

No, I live away from family & most friends. Do you have any suggestions given my situation? This is the same approach used with my previous weim. He eventually became broke from messing his cage. Maybe it only occured after he was able to hold it for this long. I know this sounds unfortunate, but my occupation requires these hours. Luckily it is not more.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:42 am

Yeah build him a kennel.

jb45 · Post by **jb45** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:04 am

Sharon wrote:
jb45 wrote:Pam/Bill, I assure you that my pup is a house dog and has plenty of interaction with the family. I should also clarify that my version of a kennel is a metal cage in my basement. I have had success using treats to persuade my pup to go into his cage, but I am afraid he will require treats when deciding to obey other commands. After practicing last night with the kennel command, we went back to sit-stay-come-whoa where he kind of regressed a bit. Hence my apprehesion to using treats as reward. We have also been taking walks on my farm under the care of a leash. At first he typically refuses to go, often trying to get back to the warmth of the house. Only after we get away from sight of the house does he finally heal and begin to pay attention to his surroundings. I've noticed that he does a lot of shivering while were out when temps are above freezing. It that typical? Any other advice on other things I should be working on in the field at this point?
I'm getting the impression that you may be moving too fast. Just my opinion but "sit,stay, whoa" is a lot for a fourteen week old pup.He is a baby and has the attention span of a child.
If it's too much that would explain his not listening and regression.
It sounds like you are having regular training times for this. How often and how long?
Much better to integrate the commands into your daily activities and make it FUN.

It's unusal for an owner of a 14 week old pup to ask about physical reprimands.
I think you need to lighten up and not let yourself be tough and demanding on this pup. JMO
Just something to think about.

From the responses that I've been getting it does sound like I'm a bit ahead of schedule. Again, a friend introduced me to a training manual (Gun Dog) that I mentioned earlier. This book outlines exact dates or windows for these commands to be tought, starting at 49 days. I have also come to the conclusion by the responses that these techniques are not thought of very highly, although the training sessions have been very effective. Everynight for about 10 minutes we gingerly work on sit, stay, come, & whoa as outlined in the book. The pup seems to enjoy the sessions and has picked them up really quick to my suprise. I have used no punishment to date on him, but the manual frequently mentions this tactic. I was skeptical while reading, hence the reason for the post.

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:20 am

This topic just gets weirder. You might want to stop while your ahead JB45!!
O.k. ...so we have this question regarding physical abuse in the name of "reprimand". We go off in a few directions, but we think there is a general consensus that it was a serious question, not an actual occurance. Now you insert the fact that your 14 month old dog is locked in a cage for 10 hours a day, and the dog should be lucky it's not longer??? 14 month's is just a pup. I am floored that anyone would do that to a pup. It is unhealthy, inhumane, and inconsistant with any training regimen on this planet. At 2ys and 5yrs, I am able to leave them crated for about 7-8 hours, on occasion, but not the norm. As puppies it started at 1-2 hours, then 3-4 max. They were taken out often during the first 4-6 months so they learned that the crate is not the toilet. You make them live in there own waste all day?? Not trying to judge here, but I would be to ashamed to even post something like this. I hope you don't plan on ever boarding dogs.
jb45, Not trying to be judgemental here, but stop and read your own post, actually read it. You might find some answers to your own questions by looking at this from a different angle. Maybe the training/physical reprimand shouldn't be your focus right now, and quite possibly your situation in life at this juncture dicatates that a dog is not feasable. Believe me, your not doing this little guy any favors.
Bill L.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:53 am

Now you insert the fact that your 14 month old dog is locked in a cage for 10 hours a day, and the dog should be lucky it's not longer???

Bill, I don't know if you typo'd, but this is worse than that--it's 14 weeks old.

Jb45--It sounds like you're training might not be so bad, at 10 minutes a day with just the basics taught. Just don't overdue it. And other than nipping, I don't see the necessity for a physical reprimand. You have a baby at this point.

IMO you really really need to have an outside kennel if weather permits. If he's got to be locked up for 10 hours--he needs room to potty, room to sleep, room to stretch his legs...........and I believe something to look at other than his crate walls and your empty basement. During the summer days, both my dogs lay outside in there 10 x 10 kennel, watching the birds, horses, etc. If possible, use an outdoor kennel during the day and leave the crate for your sleeping time. While your technique might've worked for the first dog, it's not very sound...and I don't think anyone would advise crate training or usage that way. It sounds like you would've been a perfect candidate for an older dog vs a puppy. But you didn't go that route--so how can you make this better? Can you do an outside kennel during the day? Denise

As an Edit, I'm adding a link to crate training:
http://www.animalhumanesociety.org/webfm_send/44

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:00 am

Having a young pup try to hold it all day and inevitably soiling its crate is just as likely to make the up numb to the soiling and create a problem that will be terribly difficult to correct.

jb45 · Post by **jb45** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:10 am

Denise,
Thanks for the link. I can see why the backlash from members concerning my weim being kept in the cage while I'm at work. I apologize if I offended anyone. Hopefully I have come away more educated for the proper training and care of my pup, which was the reason I joined the forum.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:32 am

jb45 wrote:No, I live away from family & most friends. Do you have any suggestions given my situation? This is the same approach used with my previous weim. He eventually became broke from messing his cage. Maybe it only occured after he was able to hold it for this long. I know this sounds unfortunate, but my occupation requires these hours. Luckily it is not more.

OH my!!! I really think that you should rethink having a puppy. This borders on neglect and abuse. Your pup is going to have some social problems as well as possible health problems from being locked up so much.

Is there some retired person or a neighbor that you can pay to come in a couple of times a day to let the pup out to potty??

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:33 am

jb45 wrote:No, I live away from family & most friends. Do you have any suggestions given my situation? This is the same approach used with my previous weim. He eventually became broke from messing his cage. Maybe it only occured after he was able to hold it for this long. I know this sounds unfortunate, but my occupation requires these hours. Luckily it is not more.

OH my!!! I really think that you should rethink having a puppy. This borders on neglect and abuse. Your pup is going to have some social problems as well as possible health problems from being locked up so much.

Is there some retired person or a neighbor that you can pay to come in a couple of times a day to let the pup out to potty??

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:14 am

No it doesn't border on abuse. Is it good for the dog? Absolutely not. Is it good for social development? Of course not. Should the dog be locked up that long? No way? But there are alternatives, and I would not call it abuse. Leaving a dog in a crate for days on end is abuse. Leaving one in a crate while you have to work is just life. And just because this guy cannot have someone come over and care for his puppy while he is out making a living does not mean he is unfit to be an owner. He does need to come up with some better options though. Don't let that post bother you.

This is the same person that said I was not suitable to safely and succesfully have a litter of puppies, but did not even bother having all of the facts. She just saw something she didnt like and assumed without finding out. While it would be great for all of us to be able to only work 5 hours a day or be able to come home and spend a couple of hours during the day with our dog, the truth of the real world is not everyone can. People have had bird dogs for years successfully. This includes people who had to work 12 hour shifts or more just to make ends meat. My suggestion would be build a kennel for your dogs to be outside in while you are away. It will give them a place to excercise and get some fresh air rather than in a basement all day. When you get home make sure to give them plenty of attention. As a dog gets older it will be able to hold its fluids and bowels. Dogs naturally do not want to mess in their den. I never crate trained any of my dogs but I have never had any mess in there when we go on hunting trips or trials.

nfili · Post by **nfili** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:32 am

I really do not think it is right to label jb45's actions as "abuse". Yes, 8-10 hours in a crate is a long time and if possible should be avoided. However, I believe, if the pup/dog is introduced to the crate as part of a set daily routine, it will not be so much of a problem.
I myself have a 2 1/2 year English Setter named Sulli. He was 12 weeks old when he came home with us. Both my wife and myself have full-time jobs so, as much as we did't like to, we had to crate Sulli for 8 hours (or so) a day. (Even if we had an outside kennel, I would not feel comfortable with him outside while we are away for fear of someone taking him.)(Let me also clarify that his crate is 42" x 36" x 30") He messed in his crate the first day and hasn't since. We have always made it a point to keep his routine consistent and by doing this, I think he is better able to control his bathroom needs while we are away. When I say consistent routine, I mean we feed him at the same times everyday, the same amount of food. We let him out in the yard every morning for 10-15 minutes to potty and play before we leave and when we get ready to leave he will sit in front of his crate, waiting for a dog biscuit. We leave the T.V. on in the garage everyday to keep him company (his favorite is TV Land) and we let him out as soon as one of us gets home. Naturally when we are home, he goes out whenever he needs to. I might also add that we live on 40 acres and are surrounded by much more farm land so my dog gets plenty of excercise.
Actually, when I thought he was old enough, we decided to leave him loose in the house for the day to see how he would do. The first day was fine. The second day I came home and peeked thru the window to see what he was doing when I got home. He was laying in the middle of the kitchen floor with a dazed look on his face, had urinated all across the entire floor and my living room looked like a blizzard had taken place with white couch cushion stuffing covering the floor. I think the reason he did this was he was not used to being loose like that and his crate wa his "safe place". We have not attempted that again. I would like to at some point, but cannot convince my wife at the moment. All that being said, I can promise Sulli does not feel abused or neglected in any way. He sleeps in bed with us at night, lays on the couch with me in the evenings and "supervises" my wife when she is fixing dinner. He is my "co-pilot" when I take him for rides in the truck. He will sit in the middle of the second row seat and stare intesly out the windshield. He is also proficient in the commands "sit" "stay" "whoa" "here (come)" and (fetch "get").
Sorry to be so long-winded but my point is, for lack of better phrasing, if the relationship between the owner and his/her dog is an equal give/take relationship and one goes about these things in a systemmatic / routine fashion that the dog can understand and become accustomed to, then I do not feel that such action would be thought of or taken as abusive by the owner or the dog.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:42 am

romeo212000 wrote:No it doesn't border on abuse. Is it good for the dog? Absolutely not. Is it good for social development? Of course not. Should the dog be locked up that long? No way? But there are alternatives, and I would not call it abuse. Leaving a dog in a crate for days on end is abuse. Leaving one in a crate while you have to work is just life. And just because this guy cannot have someone come over and care for his puppy while he is out making a living does not mean he is unfit to be an owner. He does need to come up with some better options though. Don't let that post bother you.

This is the same person that said I was not suitable to safely and succesfully have a litter of puppies, but did not even bother having all of the facts. She just saw something she didnt like and assumed without finding out. While it would be great for all of us to be able to only work 5 hours a day or be able to come home and spend a couple of hours during the day with our dog, the truth of the real world is not everyone can. People have had bird dogs for years successfully. This includes people who had to work 12 hour shifts or more just to make ends meat. My suggestion would be build a kennel for your dogs to be outside in while you are away. It will give them a place to excercise and get some fresh air rather than in a basement all day. When you get home make sure to give them plenty of attention. As a dog gets older it will be able to hold its fluids and bowels. Dogs naturally do not want to mess in their den. I never crate trained any of my dogs but I have never had any mess in there when we go on hunting trips or trials.

So perhaps YOU would like to like in a crate all day long wallowing in your own excrement?? If an elderly person in a nursing home was under these conditions you better believe that nursing home would be shut down. And no I don't think of my dogs as being human I just like them to be in humane conditions.

People who have dogs for years make arrangements for their care BEFORE getting a puppy when they have situations where the dog has to be confined and they can't get home to let the dog out. I did it for many years when I was working full-time, was single, and living where I didn't have family. And in fact I pulled double shifts many times and made sure that my dog was taken care of. Heck if he has to perhaps he can find a doggy daycare.

Puppies from petstores and mills frequently are very difficult to crate train because they are allowed to lay in their own waste so they become accustomed to the unpleasantness.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:08 pm

yes it clearly is abuse no matter how unintentional, build a kennel or give the dog to someone that can properly care for it. Not everyone can own animals when their life situation is not suitable you just have to admit that sometimes and do the right thing. Thats way too much time for any dog to stay in a crate everyday.

jczv · Post by **jczv** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:23 pm

I'm guessing a number of people will disagree but as a short-term solution even blocking off an area of the basement so that the dog can relieve itself without having to lay in it. The old newspaper to crap and pee on. It saves you some cleanup and the dog some distress. A 100,000 minature poodle owners can't be wrong! It would at least give you some time to come up with a long-term solution.

We crate our dogs but the better half works 6.5 hours a day. If it was only my schedule our dogs would be kenneled with access to the outside. In our case our older male could last much longer but our runt female is at about her limit.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:48 pm

jczv wrote:I'm guessing a number of people will disagree but as a short-term solution even blocking off an area of the basement so that the dog can relieve itself without having to lay in it. The old newspaper to crap and pee on. It saves you some cleanup and the dog some distress. A 100,000 minature poodle owners can't be wrong! It would at least give you some time to come up with a long-term solution.

That's an excellent idea. You can buy a large x-pen and put a crate in it. Pup then can at least come out of crate to potty on newspapers. I do this when I first wean my puppies and it is winter. I set it up in my whelping room. Pups are introduced to the crate in this manner.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:56 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:No it doesn't border on abuse. Is it good for the dog? Absolutely not. Is it good for social development? Of course not. Should the dog be locked up that long? No way? But there are alternatives, and I would not call it abuse. Leaving a dog in a crate for days on end is abuse. Leaving one in a crate while you have to work is just life. And just because this guy cannot have someone come over and care for his puppy while he is out making a living does not mean he is unfit to be an owner. He does need to come up with some better options though. Don't let that post bother you.

This is the same person that said I was not suitable to safely and succesfully have a litter of puppies, but did not even bother having all of the facts. She just saw something she didnt like and assumed without finding out. While it would be great for all of us to be able to only work 5 hours a day or be able to come home and spend a couple of hours during the day with our dog, the truth of the real world is not everyone can. People have had bird dogs for years successfully. This includes people who had to work 12 hour shifts or more just to make ends meat. My suggestion would be build a kennel for your dogs to be outside in while you are away. It will give them a place to excercise and get some fresh air rather than in a basement all day. When you get home make sure to give them plenty of attention. As a dog gets older it will be able to hold its fluids and bowels. Dogs naturally do not want to mess in their den. I never crate trained any of my dogs but I have never had any mess in there when we go on hunting trips or trials.
So perhaps YOU would like to like in a crate all day long wallowing in your own excrement?? If an elderly person in a nursing home was under these conditions you better believe that nursing home would be shut down. And no I don't think of my dogs as being human I just like them to be in humane conditions.

People who have dogs for years make arrangements for their care BEFORE getting a puppy when they have situations where the dog has to be confined and they can't get home to let the dog out. I did it for many years when I was working full-time, was single, and living where I didn't have family. And in fact I pulled double shifts many times and made sure that my dog was taken care of. Heck if he has to perhaps he can find a doggy daycare.

Puppies from petstores and mills frequently are very difficult to crate train because they are allowed to lay in their own waste so they become accustomed to the unpleasantness.

You very clearly do hold your dogs to the same level as humans. Your posts relating dog care and treatment to people care and treatment both past and present clearly point to that. Doggy daycare? Are you serious? It is a dog not a child. I personally think a good choice would be to put a larger pen in the basement so the dog can get some excercise and have an area where he can do his thing? But people comeon. The guy asked for help, not to be told what he is doing is abusive, which it is not. As I said, it is not a good thing for the dog. There are better choices and I am happy to help. Do you bring all your dogs in the hotel with you when you travel to hunt also? Dogs view their crate or kennel as their den. We should do whatever we can to make that place pleasant for them but get over yourselves.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:23 pm

.
Are you still with us JB?

People are being very hard on you and I can understand their reaction.( Education however does more good then anger.)
However, you sound like someone who is trying to do their best and cares about the dog.
I remember many a dog where I wished I had known more at the time.
How were you to know the book with times etc . wasn't the best way to go? ( Problem with times for every dog is , no two dogs are the same. I remember doing the same thing: "Next week he'll learn to whoa and the week after he'll be solid and the week after............LOL"

So give yourself a break , learn from the forum and go at it again. (Dog does need a place blocked off in the basement, good exercise when you get home , and keep an eye out for someone to come over at lunch.)

I wish you well with your dog.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:25 pm

Doggy daycare? Are you serious? ...........Do you bring all your dogs in the hotel with you when you travel to hunt also?

If someone wants to use doggie daycare, what's it to anyone else and why the belittling? It could be the perfect solution if economical and present, to get this pup the socialization and potty time he needs. Obiously different folks hold their dogs in different regards here, and we all need to respect each other to some degree. Most of us have to work for a living, but the decision should be made (prior to purchase) if you have the time and circumstances for a puppy--or if a mature dog would've been a better choice. I believe the original poster is well meaning and probably wants to keep the pup, however alternatives seem necessary--or this will be the same dog you will read about 6 months from now who still isn't housebroken and maybe has other issues. A larger pen within the basement or garage sounds like the best choice, if no other alternatives are available. For the pen, you might check out a supply site like Jeffers.com for an exercise pen that you could set up (some aren't as sturdy as others), or buy a small outdoor kennel at a building center, check out Craigslist, or post a wanted ad on your local Freecycle website.

And yes, my dogs have been in hotels. It costs $5-10 extra per night, and is no different than them being housedogs at home. Again, why does anyone care? :roll: Denise

As an edit: For anyone not familiar with Freecycle, it's a nationwide cyberspace org where you can give and recieve items. In my area, it's not uncommon to see crates, kennels and supplies offered by folks.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:32 pm

You very clearly do hold your dogs to the same level as humans. Your posts relating dog care and treatment to people care and treatment both past and present clearly point to that. Doggy daycare? Are you serious? It is a dog not a child. I personally think a good choice would be to put a larger pen in the basement so the dog can get some excercise and have an area where he can do his thing? But people comeon. The guy asked for help, not to be told what he is doing is abusive, which it is not. As I said, it is not a good thing for the dog. There are better choices and I am happy to help. Do you bring all your dogs in the hotel with you when you travel to hunt also? Dogs view their crate or kennel as their den. We should do whatever we can to make that place pleasant for them but get over yourselves.

I use those anecdotes to get people who aren't familiar with dog care to think of what is going through the brain of puppies. Do I have a kennel ? Sure I do and all of my dogs take turns LIVING in that kennel since I cannot have all of them in the house at the same time and I have intact dogs and bitches. My dogs also spend plenty of time on a stakeout. One is out on the FT circuit with lots of tieout time. And yes doggy daycare. It's a good solution for people who have no alternative other than their dogs spending as much time in a crate as this pup.

And YES I do bring my dogs into a hotel room when I take them on trips. I live in the SOUTH. It can get upwards of a 100 degrees here and dogs DIE in vehicles when left for even 10 min. at those temps. There have also been dogs stolen from vehicles and used as bait dogs for Pittbulls. I know of several people that this has happened to. I certainly don't want to lose one of my dogs! In fact just last week I had crates set up in the cabin for the dogs while I was at our National FT Championships in OK.

My dogs are DOGS I don't humanize them but I won't allow them to be uncomfortable either.

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:34 pm

Well put Denise!!
jb45 - I think we all have very strong opinions when it comes our beloved dogs, and I am certain you fall into that cartegory as well. With that said, I am sure you have read a little of everyones observations (and rants) and hopefully this thread has in some way helped you with your search for the perfect "middle ground" between the must do issues in your life and your dogs well being. You sound like a sensible dog owner who is looking for some help in researching the best siolutions for your situation. Bet you never expected to bust this hornets nest open....did ya!! Good Luck and I certainly hope you enjoy many... many happy years together with your dog!!
Bill L.

P.S. My dogs have seen many hotel rooms when on the road.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:43 pm

Hotel rooms? You guys have got to be kidding me.... NEVER.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:44 pm

Yes excellent post, Denise.

LOL My dogs have seen the insides of hotel rooms all over the country. In fact they have almost stayed in one in almost every state! From cabins at state parks, to a Crown Plaza at Nationals, to an Orient Express! I also have one who has more air miles than I do!!!!

Gar-dog, I'm trying to figure out that logo on the pillow. I know I have seen it before in my travels.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:49 pm

Three and a half months is far too young for any corporal punishment. If he bites, pinch his nose. If he doesn't stop, lightly nip him back on the nose. If you can't catch him, keep him on an 1/8" cc. That's all he needs for now. At this stage I also teach whoa, by restraining him at the food dish and when I go out the door, I whoa him. Always on a cc. He's a baby, let him rock and roll.

jb45 · Post by **jb45** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:01 pm

Still listening, still learning, keep talking! I appreciate all that stood up for me instead of joining in. Requesting to be cut loose from the gallows.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:30 pm

jb45 wrote:Still listening, still learning, keep talking! I appreciate all that stood up for me instead of joining in. Requesting to be cut loose from the gallows.

LOL I am not trying to hang you here. It just upsets me when I see a Weimy left in a crate for all those hours. I've seen the results of it many times in rescue. Seperation anxiety, dirtiness in the crate, shy dogs, etc. You name it I have seen it.

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:51 pm

It looks like a "Sheraton" emblem to me.

jb45- at least you have a good sense of humor!!
Bill L.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:55 pm

I believe it was a Crowne Plaza in Lake Placid, NY. (Kid had a hockey tournament up there).

PS - i like the crate in a pen idea that was mentioned. Get those little fence/pens - maybe buy some cheap roll-out linoluem to just lay down and cover with paper. Put the crate inside. That way pup can move around some.

kumate · Post by **kumate** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:32 am

I have my pup in a crate everyday. Have since he was 8wks and now just under 5mths, he stays in the crate for 7plus hrs a day myself and my wife work and this is out of neccesity. I have only had one or two peeing accidents in the crate since day one. Everyday when i get home i exercise and playtrain with the pup. I try to release all that penned up energy, as long as i can watch him i let him run loose in the house, then back out to potty and in the crate. When he gets older and fully potty trained he will sleep in our bedroom on the floor with the 10 yr old gsp. My pup is very socialized, i take him to work once a week to the nursing home again in th crate, i reg take him to petsmart and have been to the fleamarket a few times. You would never say " i can tell that pup has been crated for 7hrs straight." Having said this i realize the crate is not optimal, and feel bad for leaving him in it that long exspecially when he is in it again at night for 7-8 hrs. Shortly as soon as i can make a floor to set my 10x10 kenel on thats where he will go during the day then inside in the kennel at night.

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:15 am

kumate- sounds as though you took a methodical approach to working your pup into the crate. You didn't just put him in and let him sit in his own waste. You have taken time and energy, and probably a lot of patience to work the little guy into the 7 hrs. Yes, there will be accidents at the beginning, but you have to stay on it. I feel when the dog is very young, start with short periods in, and when they come out of the crate......right out side to take care of business.
Bill L.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:49 pm

Elroy's Bandit wrote:kumate- sounds as though you took a methodical approach to working your pup into the crate. You didn't just put him in and let him sit in his own waste. You have taken time and energy, and probably a lot of patience to work the little guy into the 7 hrs. Yes, there will be accidents at the beginning, but you have to stay on it. I feel when the dog is very young, start with short periods in, and when they come out of the crate......right out side to take care of business.
Bill L.

This I agree with.

KFhunter · Post by **KFhunter** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:33 pm

thrash·ing (thr_sh_ng)
n.
A severe beating.
B What jb45 got on Gun Dog forum

My pup sleeps in the crate all night long with no accidents, but first few weeks I'd take her potty at 3am when I had to go anyways. I used her CC and pinched it in the door while she was out in the yard lol hey it worked!

I built a "kennel" under my deck for when we are at work, it's probably 10'x12' but its a high deck so the roof is 12 foot high. I walled it off with OSB and wire to prevent digging/chewing. I then put in pine shavings and straw hay. Works good as she'll build a nest in the straw and loves to dig and sniff thru it and run and play with it. I also keep a toy in there for her to chew and tear up. She's only in there when the wife and I are both working which can be up to 10 hours. I also pick up all the poo I can each day or two and keep the pine shavings fresh. Now that its getting cold I'm going to put in a heated dog house she can keep warm in.

When the dog is older I'm going to make a proper kennel/run. But right now she loves the hay and shavings to romp in.

during the times when we are home we use the crate to help house break her, we'll feed her and excercise her then crate her for a short time..then I'll take her straight from the crate to outside saying "lets go potty, gotta go potty?" and she'll potty outside everytime. Then she's free inside the house until I think it's time she might want to potty again then in the crate she'll go for a short time, then potty again outside. Very happy with the results. Now shes being traned to sleep on her own doggie bed. I have her leashed up so she's forced to stay very near her bed, so far no issues! She sleeps on it all night long and no accidents or whining.