to much importance put on pedigree?

up-hunter · Post by **up-hunter** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:56 am

I was reading an article on breeding and i have a question probably a stupid one?

When we are looking at prospective litters to get a pup from do we look to much at pedigree and not enough at the performance of the dogs being bred?

for example, i was told when looking for a pup to run in the grouse trials, that i should find the top female that is running in the woods and if they are breeding her to a good well known stud dog that you have a better chance of getting the best pup. He said it's nice to have a strong pedigree, but it's very important to pick a pup from great dogs, female being most important?

what do you guys think?

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:13 pm

That's not stupid at all. I think Pedigrees are WAAAY to big of a deal. I do like a good pedigree, but I have a dog with no titled dogs in 3 generations and she has more drive, more go, more nose, and an incredible ability to find birds. I have SEEN dogs out of field champions and they were not worth a spit. But then I have seen dogs out of Field Champions and they were awesome!! Well how can that be?? It's because a pedigree cannot guarantee anything!!

I know there will be many to disagree with me on this, but I don't and will not form my breeding program around a pedigree, I will form it by actually looking at the dog I am breeidng, not its great grandpa who won a trial.

I would choose performance over a pedigree any day!

Prairie Hunter · Post by **Prairie Hunter** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:23 pm

When looking at pedigrees, it’s not so much about titles, but about bloodlines and the quality of the dogs on the pedigree. There are no absolutes in breeding, but it’s the quality of the dogs behind the dogs being bred that is important. If you are breeding two dogs with a lot of quality dogs in their background, you have the best chance for producing quality dogs, especially if you are linebreeding. Understanding the pedigree is about the only way to stack the odds in your favor when breeding.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:38 pm

That is a tricy one

I do look at lines but the like a cake the pedigree is the icing makes a cake look nice and the dam and the sire are the ingredients of the cake

You try and make the right mix to get what you want in the end

I have seen pretty awesome looking pedigree and the pups fall short of what should be there

I have seen not so great peds produce some nice pups ...Sleeper litters

but no matter what if the breeder doesn't put together a program of the desired traits you more then liely won't have much to work with

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:54 pm

Here's my take on the subject, FWIW...

Buying a pup with the intention of competing with it is a dicey propostition at best. The majority of the pups produced will not become dogs wheich can be competed successfully. Soooo, how do you improve your odds, when buying a puppy?

One way, of course is to see, or have seen the sire and the dam in action, be it hunting or trialing. If both sire and dam have what you are looking for and do what you want a dog to do, you have come a long way toward assuring that the pups will also.

However... and this is where the pedigree comes in... if the sire and the dam do not reproduce themselves...you got bupkis. The outcross analogy that works here is a mating between Albert Einstein and Marilyn Monroe. Everyone would hope for progeny with his brains and her looks. But what if the progeny had his looks and her brains? OUCH!

The pedigree should give you an idea of whether or not the sire and dam are outcrosses that just happened to mesh nicely, or if either or both of them are linebred. Obviously, a linebred dog has a much greater likelihood of reproducing itself than and unrelated outcross. It could be that the sire and dam are both outcrosses, but that they may have one of the outcrosses in common. This too would give you a greater likelhood of getting a pup from that mating that resembled the parents at least partially.

A puppy, especially a puppy purchased with the intent of competing, is a real crap shoot. Most simply do not make the cut, for one reason or another, even from the best of breedings. it is a rare litter that has thee winning dogs in it. You need to put as many things in your favor as is possible and that includes a strong pedigree.

The flip side is to breed a dog that is an inferior performer becuase it has a strong pedigree. The classic example of that is the dog which is made into a brood bitch because she did not make the transition from derby to shooting dog. That to me is asking for trouble, regardless of how strong the pedigree is.

RayG

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:40 pm

[quote="h.q.s"]I know there will be many to disagree with me on this, but I don't and will not form my breeding program around a pedigree, I will form it by actually looking at the dog I am breeidng, not its great grandpa who won a trial.
Iquote]

Maybe not the great - grandparents , but the parents' accomplishments on that pedigree are very important to me.

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:47 pm

Just hypothetically speaking there Sharon.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:04 pm

OK. I'm not good with hypotheticals.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:05 am

The pedigree is information.

Let me give you another hypothetical situation.

Suppose someone is considering a dog for their breeding program. The dog has TREMENDOUS performance. On the other hand, the pedigree shows that the dog's line is well known for killer genetic issues.

Would they not then consider the pedigree the more important factor and pass on the dog? I know that I would.

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:09 am

Pedigree, and particularly "vertical pedigree" including siblings, can be our best tool for estimating if the dog before us is likely to replicate its traits or a genetic fluke unlikely to do so.

Pretty hard to put too much importance on that.

hunt365 · Post by **hunt365** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:19 am

In my opinion I think both sire and Dam's performance and Pedigree should be considered to get the best possible chance for your litter trying to pull up or retain traits from the dogs in the past. I think this should be done wheather you are line breeding or outcrossing. If I had to pick one I think it would be performance

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:48 pm

Stop and think about it. If pedigree is of so little importance why do we register our dogs? And for those of you who say it isn't why do you own a rwegistered dog? The registratrion papers are nothing more than a pedigree that says who and what the parents are, or in other words a 1 generation pedigree. I want to see at minimum a 3 generation and happier with a 5 if I am going to spend money on a puppy. and would at least like to know about the parents performance. I look for pedigree first and pick the performance qualities out of that pedigree.

Ezzy

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:17 pm

I think it's very important to know who the parents are, and I want to know that they came from a line of registered GSP's who are not mutts, that are actually purebred. Pedigrees just don't do a whole lot for me, If I were to see a German Shorthair in the field and be amazed by it, then looked at it's pedigree and the pedigree didn't really show anything, then I would still get a pup from that dog rather than look at a pedigree and be amazed by the pedigree and have the pup lack in performance. Same thing with my pups, they are bred to perform, not look good on paper!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:52 pm

When I look at the pedigree the titles are not the only thing I look for either. But without a pedigree I have no idea who the parents or grandparents are to even be able to find out what their performance level is. Have to know who the dogs are before you can check on their performance.

Ezzy

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:16 pm

I kinda feel like this post has turned into if you want a pedigree on your dog. Well I DO! I just don't think a titles mean a whole lot. They don't guarantee anything. I do some hunt tests with my dogs, but I do them for fun. I guess my point is, that a pedigree is great, but just because your dog has a good one, doesn't mean the dog will be a good one.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:46 am

The odds of getting a good one are vastly improved with a good pedigree.

vikings269 · Post by **vikings269** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:06 am

I will take a strong prey drive over any pedigree any time! ya can mold some dogs and others are difficult, as long as ya always have a strong prey drive ya always have hope!

vikings269 · Post by **vikings269** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:08 am

I will take a walmart parking lot pup with a huge prey drive over a strong pedigree pup any day!

vikings269 · Post by **vikings269** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:12 am

the dogs in trials are trained hard to reach that level, most people just want a good hunting companion, just getting the correct breed may suffice, why look at pedigrees? and why look for a dog that had to be trained hard to do what he wants?

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:17 am

Pedigree is important, it gives you an idea what your pup should turn out like. The individual parents are very important, too many pedigree pen dogs. My three best dogs currently fit a pattern. All three of their sires produced champions and futurity winners. All three of their dams produced trial winners and were broke dogs. All three dams were from bloodlines that had previously worked when bred to that particular sire. I try and stack the deck in my favor the best I can.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:27 am

And in all of the dogs I have had or raised I only saw one pup without much desire and by the time he was two he even turned into an excellent dog. Plus pedigres are what tell you what breed you have and what breed the ancestors were and not just what titles they have won. Most people don't seem to realize just what a pedigree really is and how to use them.

Ezzy

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:54 am

ezzy333 wrote:Most people don't seem to realize just what a pedigree really is and how to use them.

Ezzy

If this thread's any indication, you've sure pegged that!

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:09 am

vikings269 wrote:I will take a strong prey drive over any pedigree any time! ya can mold some dogs and others are difficult, as long as ya always have a strong prey drive ya always have hope!

And how can one best increase his odd of getting strong prey drive, or any genetic trait?

Razor wrote:The odds of getting a good one are vastly improved with a good pedigree.

Strong prey drive, or other desired genetic trait, in potential parents is, of course, a fine thing, but no assurance that it isn't a genetic fluke from lines with lower odds of being passed to offspring than that shown by potential parents from lines repeatedly displaying what is desired.

Perhaps reading this link, Breeders Guide to Using OFA Information will offer those wishing to get past the "pedigree = titled ancestors" notion some idea of how pedigree might better be used.

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:45 pm

h.q.s wrote:I think it's very important to know who the parents are, and I want to know that they came from a line of registered GSP's who are not mutts, that are actually purebred. Pedigrees just don't do a whole lot for me, If I were to see a German Shorthair in the field and be amazed by it, then looked at it's pedigree and the pedigree didn't really show anything, then I would still get a pup from that dog rather than look at a pedigree and be amazed by the pedigree and have the pup lack in performance. Same thing with my pups, they are bred to perform, not look good on paper!

Lantz
If pedigrees and titles don't mean anything to you than how do you know what your going to get out of your breedings? Some crosses just don't work. Pedigrees are a history. Different lines have shown different things and performed better in different areas. It is an indicator (not fact) of what you may be getting out of a breeding.
If you see a dog that amazes you in the field but doesn't have a good ped than look a little farther cause there is dogs with both.
Peds are very important to me. They give me an idea what I can expect from the pup. Again not 100% but a very good indicator. No dogs in a pedigree that I can trace gives me no idea if I want the dog or not cause then all I have to go off is the owners word. And if you ask them they all say they are the best dog around :roll:

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:32 pm

I didn't say they don't mean a thing to me. They don't do a whole lot for me is what I said. I have my dog Sis who has an incredible pedigree, and she is awesome! Then I have a male with a pedigree that lacks a lot of titles, and he is probably the most natural pup you will ever see. I also have a female who doesn't have a real strong pedigree and she is just awesome too. So it just shows me that pedigree doesn't give you a great dog. Sure it may help, and may not.
Anyway, the topic is to much importance put on a pedigree? My answer is YES! Performance over pedigree is what I say.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:59 pm

Some people can figure out how to bake a wonderful cake without a recipe, others need a detailed recipe to follow.

Sometimes, you can just throw in some flour, some sugar, a bit of sugar,.... and wella you have something great to eat.

Other times, you can all those same ingredients, or close to it (because you forgot to write it all down) and blam.... disgusting!

All according to what you want to end up with, a proven recipe, or willing to take the chance of it being worth the trouble.
Fuzz

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:10 pm

My answer, No. So say you have two females that perform great, one has the incredible pedigree and the other doesn't. Which dam would I want a pup out of?--the one with the incredible pedigree. While there's no guarantee, at least there's some history there. She would be a prospect to me, and the other dam a gamble. For all I know the other dam, without the good pedigree, is a fluke and isn't capable of passing her talents on. On the other hand, maybe her lineage is great, but no one bothered to test/trial them to show it. But unfortunately, I would have no way of knowing that. I also went to the OFA link briefly and was reading about the verticle pedigree and sibling relationships...I am thinking that's a very valuable tool as well...IF the info is available. That reminds me of the NAVHDA breeders awards, where if so many out of the litter achieve good test results, a record of so is made. I don't know if other recording/registry agencies do that or not.

Being on the consumer side of it, and not being able to watch every dog perform, I do have to rely on pedigrees to make my initial decisions on what litters to check out further. There are an awful lot of good combinations of great performers w/great pedigrees out there to choose from. So to me, with only one extra cushion left on my couch, it comes down to a prospect vs a gamble. Denise

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:55 pm

All right. The bottom picture is my dam with the not so strong pedigree, then above are 2 of her pups. Tell me if you think that's a fluke. I will post a picture of my dams mom and dad on point. It's a long line of strong performance!!!! Her grandparents guided on Pheasant Preserves and were known for their ability. To me that says WAYY more than a FC title!

RevRetrieve.jpg

TyJessGirlPoint8wks.jpg

JessyOnPoint.jpg

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:01 pm

Here is my dogs sire and dam, or the grandparents of the pups pictured. Plain and simple for me, performance is more important than a fancy pedigree!

Jessy'sParents.jpg

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:17 pm

One last try: A dog's pedigree is its lineage, not the titles that may or may not have been earned by dogs in its lineage. There need not be a titled dog in a pedigree for it to be a great pedigree, just great dogs and especially those that have shown the ability to pass their greatness on.

Kevin WI · Post by **Kevin WI** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:20 pm

In essence, hunt titles on a pedigree let people know that your dogs come from PROVEN hunters...dogs that have CONSISTENTLY met the standard for the breed in a hunting environment.
If you buy a dog from someone that says...oh yeah...he or she is a great hunter...are you going to take their word for it? how will you know if their sire/dam were great hunters (granddam/grandsire) as they are probably dead. Titles on a pedigree prove it..
..it's only one aspect you should consider with health checks being another, but getting a dog from a solid pedigree GREATLY improves your odds of getting what you want.
Have I ever seen a great $25 backyard bred dog? yep.....but I've seen a lot more great "well pedigreed" dogs though.

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:23 pm

I give up.

My dogs are not $25 backyard bred dogs, they are bred to perform.

I never said that I think pedigrees are nothing.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:12 pm

What was asked I thought was a general opinion question...but it seems its being taken personal. As I stated in your photo thread a couple weeks ago HQS, you have some darn nice looking dogs...and I said that honestly and meant it. I in no way said your dog is a fluke, but you have to understand...I'm over here in Iowa. I wish I could get on a plane and go meet everyone and their dogs on the forum and beyond, 'cause I sure do like and respect a lot of you on here. But I can't, so other than the pedigree history, if I can reference it--I know nothing about your dog or how good the dogs behind it are. I also don't know you or what your idea of a good performance is...and NO I'm not knocking your judgement because I would guess you're waaaaay ahead of me in experience and maybe you would even think my dog is substandard. I'm just saying that different folks are looking for different things in different dogs...whether it be performance or pedigree. So the least risk for me, my money, and that one couch cushion that's left-- IMO is to find a dog that has a recorded history of performing in the events I want to perform in. Denise

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:56 pm

h.q.s wrote:I give up.

My dogs are not $25 backyard bred dogs, they are bred to perform.

I never said that I think pedigrees are nothing.

Nobody said they were and nobody is attacking you. Sis is a very nice dog
I just said without a pedigree or any titles I have to take the word of the owner. If they have any titles or lineage then I can have an idea what to expect. I can't fly all over the U.S. looking at dogs I want to see. I have to base some of my decision on pedigrees and titles.
There is one thing I will dissagree with you about. Ability on bird farms is in no way on the same level of performance of an FC.
Lantz I like you, but your opinion on peformance and mine is very different.
I invite you to come to our Spring trial. I will provide horses for you to ride so you can watch and educate yourself on the performance of FC's and other trial dogs. I also invite you to come down anytime you can and hunt with with me. Wild birds are not even in the same league as pen raised bird farm birds. I think your perception on peformance will change. If not we will at least have a good time shooting some birds

hunt365 · Post by **hunt365** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:20 pm

h.q.s wrote: Then I have a male with a pedigree that lacks a lot of titles, and he is probably the most natural pup you will ever see. I also have a female who doesn't have a real strong pedigree and she is just awesome too. So it just shows me that pedigree doesn't give you a great dog. Sure it may help, and may not.
Anyway, the topic is to much importance put on a pedigree? My answer is YES! Performance over pedigree is what I say.

When you are talking about pedigrees are you talking about titles or lineage of the dogs there are a lot of good dogs that don't have titles in front or behind their names that doesn't mean they don't have a good pedigree or didn't come from good dogs. It is the breeders responsibility to make his choice of dam and sire to have the best pup they can. If the buyer chooses to title them that's their choice. Non titled dogs pedigrees are as important as titled dogs they are not as publicized.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:00 pm

Lantz -

I'll put this plain and simple. You want to sell a pup to someone. The prospective buyer asks how he can be sure that the pup he is buying will hunt.

Unles you have raised, and hunted two or better, three generations within your own kennel, you have to rely on what is in the pedigree. Without a strong pedigree or without linebreeding demonstrated in the pedigree or the fact that this is a repeat of a successful breeding the honest breeder has to say: "You can't be sure."

THAT is what a strong pedigree can do for you...provide assurance that Mom or Dad is not a fluke, a one time accident that may or may not be able to reproduce itself. It is not as good as raising, training and hunting over succeeeding generations of dogs, but it gets you there also. AND, in the case of titles on dogs in the pedigree, it is not just your word or your opinion. Those titles mean that dogs who earned them demonstrated their ability to strangers, in competition.

I have had several dogs from the same general lines over the last ten years or so. They were all a little different, to be sure, but they all had waaay more similarities than they had differences and they all reacted to my training about the same way.

Because they are similarly bred...I have a good idea what to expect from dogs that haven't even been born yet.

I also have an good idea how to improve on what I have now without taking backward steps in the process. That is something pedigrees can do for you as well.

RayG

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:15 pm

A "good" pedigree increases the odds of getting what you want. Plain and simple. Choosing a dog is a crap shoot at its' best . I'll take all the help I can get.

h.q.s · Post by **h.q.s** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:52 pm

All righty

I want to make something a bit more clear, I do believe in a pedigree, I believe that they are good to have but going back to the cake analogy I care about the ingredient before I care about the frosting. Meaning, I care about the dog's traits before I consider about their lines, because if you don't like the dog then you obviously want to stay away from that line!!!
That's really all my point. I am going to do a NAVHDA NA test with my male, and do hunt tests with my girls, so I like to prove my dogs, but I do it more for the fun, rather than trying to prove my dog to everybody. I know what they are made of, and that's what matters most to me.

About the bird farms, I for sure know the difference between a pen raised bird and a wild bird, try a wild South Dakota rooster. My point in that was that her grandparents had been hunted over a lot, and had pleased a lot of hunters.

Also, as far as Jessy's pedigree, she doesn't have a crap shoot one, as far as titles go, it just doesn't compare to Brandon's (Dirty steve's) Crash dog, or Buddy dog. She has a lot of nice line breeding with Dixieland's Rusty, it is just in her 4th generation, so not to close, but how she is line bred in that 4th generation. But as far as the dogs in there, they are all stellar performers. I have seen her parents work, her work, her pups work. I actually just got off the phone with a owner of one of her pups at 13 weeks old the pup is pointing live chukkar, fine around the gun, and their vets say she has the best temperament they have ever seen in a GSP. He also said that he has her potty trained where the pup rings a bell when she needs to go potty, then they let her out. To me that is what it's all about!!!

So field trailers, hunt test participants, and die hard hunters, I think pedigrees are important, but I think that sometimes people think a pedigree is all you need to make a good bird dog, and thats why I said that there is to much importance put on a pedigree.

Thanks!
Lantz

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:55 am

You certainly can get a good dog without a great pedigree behind it, but I think if you want a good breeding program you should search out the best performance dog with a strong pedigree behind it. I spent years sending females out to the dogs that met my standards of what I was trying to achieve and when I got what I wanted I started linebreeding off of those dogs I trained and trialed and hunted and proved they were worthy. I looked for all the traits in the field, nose, style, intelligence, run, natural backers, retrievers, ect. I looked at conformation, I asked stud owners many questions about all these things, conformation included, as breeding 2 dogs that have a flaw is doubling up on it, so avoiding that was important to me. This is the difference in producing a pup that has capabilities of competing at a high level, possibly being show capable, having versatile capabilities, and stable temperment. So, pedigree is highly important to me, but the dog behind it must reflect it.

hunt365 · Post by **hunt365** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:19 am

I think what is getting confused in this thread is the perception of a good pedigree a lot of people have made good statements and it keeps going in circles. Titles don't make a good pedigree the dogs in it do, titles are a good way of tracking a dogs performance. Breeding good dogs to good dogs is the way to get a good pedigree Titled or not it just takes more homework and trusting that everybody is telling you the truth about the dogs in the past. If you breed a dog with a bad nose to another with a bad nose chances are your pups will have bad noses maybe not all but the majority is not in your favor. If your neighbor bought a dog from a reputable kennel and never hunted that dog and decided to raise a litter of pups and bred it to a good hunting sire these pups could be outstanding no titles no performance on pedigrees it happens everyday that doesnt mean the pedigree on the pups isn't good and the genetics aren't there.I would venture to say most pups that are sold by good kennels are hunt tested in the wild bird field and not at hunt test or field trials that doesn't make them any less of a dog. And if bred right can produce outstanding dogs for many generations with no titles,call names to recognize on pedigrees but the genetics are there. If i was picking a pup I wouldn't over look anything and use every bit of information available to make this choice it has been mention many times do your homework. If you don't recognize any dogs in the pedigree go on the parents performance chances are the pedigree is behind them.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:51 am

I also put a lot of importance on a pedigree, but lets face the DOGS make the pedigree not the other way around.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:04 am

I'm not sold on the idea of pedigree. I'd much rather see the parents preform. I just wonder how many people when they get done reading the pedigree of a dog can tell us what traits even three generations produced? And if you don't put titles on the dogs on the pedigree, now what do you know? The dogs usually recognized are only the big winners, the lessers winners, who knows what they really are. Something seldom found on a pedigree are genetic faults, wonder why?

This is America and we love a winner, don't need to know anything about the winner just so long as it's a winner.

bucky · Post by **bucky** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:53 am

Well I have raised hunting dogs my whole life. Mostly not bird dogs however, and I can tell you this much. The pedegree does matter in most other types of dogs. Here is why, a great ped does not guarantee you will get a good dog. However, if you continually breed top preformers to top preformers the odds will go up and the value of the dog will go up too dramatically. Also, you can have something to compare the puppies to in what they should achieve. I have seen hounds that were both very good dogs but thier pedigree made them about 10-15,000 dollars differance in price.

Just think if you had a 3 generation ped with all FC titled dogs what would the pups be worth vs a pup with no or few titles and even assumming they both made equal dogs which one would draw the most for a stud fee or a puppy come time to sell them? Results are hard to argue with, except by those who do not care about them.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:12 pm

The pedigree is a road mape unfortunately not to many people know how to read it, but without that pedigree all you are doing is taking a shot in the dark. The titles that dogs on that pedigree have won basiclly tell you what you may expect and does increase the value of that breeding. I do believe you need to look beyond the titles and the sire and the dam to know what combination works best and what the antire litter of both the sire and the dam are. Another words if you want to breed to Fido and he is the only dog in that litter that made it and the bitch is the same, and that lineage has not produced anything either, your odds are poor that you will get a top quailty anything. However if you breed NFC Rex to NFC Betty and both litters that they came from have multiple Champions along with the grand parents and this lineage has produced a bunch of winners your odds of getting what you are looking for increases. The pedigree tells you what you can expect, but it is not a garrenty, you need to know what that pedigree is telling you.

scotly50 · Post by **scotly50** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:08 pm

importance of pedigree?

The importance of pedigree to a dog is everything and nothing.

Everything if the dog lives up to it, and nothing if it does not.

Or vice-versa. Depending on the pedigree.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:38 pm

I've tried to write a post for this thread a number of times, but the thread has drifted from one extreme to another I'm not sure what the real question is.

IMO, FAR too much importance is put on the "pedigree itself" and not near enough importance on the actual dogs in the pedigree. Folks obsess about the dogs they have lots of info on, and ignore the dogs they know nothing about. We've got guys who think they know that "the point comes from these grandsire, the retrieve comes from this granddam and the run comes from this linebred great grandsire". I hear this stuff all the time; genetics doesn't work that way!

We need to focus on the actual dogs, primarily the first 2 generations, and what they PRODUCED and not just their performance records. In every breed, there is an unfortunately long record of folks breeding to great performers (VCs, NFCs, NSTRA CH, Show CH, MHs, etc, etc) who were lousy producers, ignoring the true great producers in the breed.

IMO, there is an inverse relationship between the amount of time/interest/obsession spent on multi-generational pedigrees, linebreeding strategies, COIs, motherlines, etc, etc and the actual experience these folks have with the actual dogs in the pedigree. Give a bunch of dogs in their specific breeds to folks like John Rabidou, Mary Howley, Ferrell Miller or Pete Flanagan without any pedigrees and within a generation or two they'll been producing excellent litters. Good breeders don't necessarily need 5 generation pedigrees and COIs; they need to understand the traits of the actual dogs they have, and then breed those dogs to understand what traits they pass. Once you understand what traits a dog passes on and which ones they don't, their pedigree becomes irrelevant.

We need more focus on breeding good dog flesh and less time on breeding good looking pedigrees. Does this mean that titles are meaningless; absolutely not. They tell you certain things about the performance abilities of those dogs. But you need to take the next step and find out how well those dogs passed on those traits. You can't go that by sitting on a computer and running COIs and 10 generation pedigrees; you get that by talking to breeders and trainers and by seeing dogs in the field, both while hunting and in competition.

The value of a pedigree is directly linked to the amount and quality of knowledge you have about the dogs in that pedigree. The focus of that knowledge needs to be on production, and not performance.

JMO,
Dave

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:06 pm

Don wrote: Something seldom found on a pedigree are genetic faults, wonder why?

Almost no one that intends to sell puppies or generate stud fees wants to talk down their product. However, buyers should have this info.

Dave Quindt wrote:The value of a pedigree is directly linked to the amount and quality of knowledge you have about the dogs in that pedigree. The focus of that knowledge needs to be on production, and not performance.

and .... what is the best way to get "inside" information about faults, qualities and production:

Dave Quindt wrote:you get that by talking to breeders and trainers and by seeing dogs in the field, both while hunting and in competition.

So what do people do if they haven't gotten access to inside information ... right or wrong .. they look at pedigrees and try to figure out if a pedigree provides them with any useful information.

Every vet has DVM after their name but how do you know if they are any good? You either get first hand or "inside" information. Now, if they are a third generation vet ... or both parents were vets .... you might want to also know if their forebearers were very good vets or not? However, I hear there are some exceptional vets that weren't line bred (no redneck jokes, please). I wonder though, if most of the really good ones didn't come from "proven" parents. If you want to improve your chances of getting an exceptional employee .... look at the parents !

hunt365 · Post by **hunt365** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:20 pm

I don't care what side of the fence your on this is some great discussion on this subject.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:02 pm

Dave that was beautiful a bit long but beautiful none the less. Like I said most people do not understand breeding as a whole, and think that if you breed 2 dogs you will always get good dogs. You have to look at the entire breeding, not only what the pedigree is but also what the parents are, what traits the blood lines have, good and bad, where do you go to enhance the positive traits and how do you get rid of the negative ones. When I breed Selina I looked at what can I do to improve, the only thing that she was missing was bottum, I wanted a dog that I did not have to work so hard, Saddle may have been the only 3 hour dog in the GSP world, it only made scents to me, I got what I was breeding for. You also need to look at the breeders, it seems to me that the same people keep coming up with good dogs over and over again, I think they must know something. It is all important, pedigree, parents, grand parents, breaders and even where they are welped.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:16 pm

BigShooter wrote:
Dave Quindt wrote:The value of a pedigree is directly linked to the amount and quality of knowledge you have about the dogs in that pedigree. The focus of that knowledge needs to be on production, and not performance.
and .... what is the best way to get "inside" information about faults, qualities and production:

Go to trials, go to hunt tests, look for repeat breedings that have produced solid pups in the first litter. Look for proven producers. Ask breeders and trainers "if you had to buy a pup from a line completely different than yours, what kennel would that pup be from?"

BigShooter wrote:
Dave Quindt wrote:you get that by talking to breeders and trainers and by seeing dogs in the field, both while hunting and in competition.
So what do people do if they haven't gotten access to inside information ... right or wrong .. they look at pedigrees and try to figure out if a pedigree provides them with any useful information.

If they can't figure out who to talk to, or how to order a NAVHDA sire production report or look at a breed club's sire/dam of the year or talk to local trainers on which kennels consistently produce excellent pups do you think they'll find USEFUL information in a pedigree?

BigShooter wrote: Every vet has DVM after their name but how do you know if they are any good? You either get first hand or "inside" information. Now, if they are a third generation vet ... or both parents were vets .... you might want to also know if their forebearers were very good vets or not? However, I hear there are some exceptional vets that weren't line bred (no redneck jokes, please). I wonder though, if most of the really good ones didn't come from "proven" parents. If you want to improve your chances of getting an exceptional employee .... look at the parents !

If you want to find a good local vet for your dog, start by finding vet schools that have a reputation for finding producing excellent working canine vets; that might not be the vet schools that get the attention for their groundbreaking research or that get awards for producing great large animal vets or the schools with the fanciest facilities or highest tuition. After you find those schools, you start looking for feedback from other dog owners on the specific vets in your area.

In the absence of production information, performance qualities of a dog are all you have to work with. But once you have production info, performance accomplishments are of little value when reviewing breeding stock.

JMO,
Dave