Airedale Terriers in AKC Spaniel Tests

[bobspheasant]

Folks:

I just heard the news that the AKC has voted to allow Airedales to participate and title in AKC Spaniel hunt tests beginning in July 2009. This is great news for us who hunt with this terrific breed. In June, we recieved word from the HRC that Airedales would be allowed to participate and title in their hunt tests as well, so this has been a great year for us! The Airedale Terrier Club of America has been holding their own hunt tests for over 20 years in an effort to have this breed, that was originally bred for hunting, accepted into AKC testing venues. Now we are there! It is very exciting! We who hunt with Airedales and will hopefully be hunt testing them, look forward to working with AKC spaniel clubs and HRC local clubs to learn more about how to train our dogs. We hope to earn titles and show everyone what a terrier can do in the field. Isn't it fun to see different breeds of dogs compete?

Scott Lichty

[Sharon]

Hmmmm

What does the terrier do in the field - point, flush or......?
I assume if they are going to be in Spaniel tests that they must flush. Is that right?

I have Jack Russell Terriers. Terriers are go-to-ground dogs and mine do that in terrier hunting tests and follow a scent. We have CKC terrier tests in Canada .

To me a terrier is a terrier and a flushing breed is a flushing breed but if the AKC likes it and you're happy then .......

[crackerd]

Believe 'Dales could compete in HRC for a while now. Also can run NAHRA tests though not for titles.

Glad the breed's getting another venue but got to put a pall over the parade as regards AKC. Airedales are not spaniels. They flush game, but so do Labs, Irish Water Spaniels and any other gundog breed if so trained. As applies to AKC, retrievers cannot compete in spaniel events. Spaniels cannot compete in retriever events. Pointing dogs cannot compete in either. No dog designated as spaniel, retriever or pointer can infiltrate a competition outside its designation. Only loophole is for standard poodles--they compete in AKC Retriever Hunt Tests, though not field trials, but poodles (pudels) originated as retrievers.

See the distinction? What will Airedale breed club do, reclassify a terrier as a spaniel? Not likely. But the AKC needs an infusion into a flagging program, spaniel hunt tests. Participation in spaniel field trials has escalated. Participation in spaniel hunt tests has declined dramatically--my last spaniel master hunter passed seven tests and in all those tests combined, there were only 25 other dogs total, not even an average of four dogs per test. (A typical AKC retriever HT will have 60-75 dogs in one master test alone.)

Couple years ago, the AKC shanghaied the Boykin Spaniel into its (spaniel) hunt tests without the assent of the true breed club, the Boykin Spaniel Society. The group that got recognition was a splinter with show interests. But AKC saw only numbers, and new blood, and sure enough a sprinkling of Boykins began competing, as did American Water Spaniels, which had been classified as a spaniel only a few years earlier after decades of breed limbo as to whether the AWS was a retriever or a spaniel.

Do 'Dales run Earth Dog events? If AKC grants a dispensation for running spaniel tests, does it halt the Earth Dog participation? Or does it start allowing breed multiple field venues irrespective their original discipline? Pointing Labs. Flushing GSPs (all pointers in Europe have to flush on command). Earth Dog St. Bernards? Every dog mentioned but the poodle, St. Bernard and 'Dale is in the AKC Sporting Group, which is being realigned. Will 'Dales become part of the new classification and shed their terrier status? Slippery slope to play with even if you get to show off your dogs in a competitive venue. And alas "show" is an operative word when it comes to spaniel HTs--they've essentially become the province of the show crowd--forewarned is forearmed when it comes to preserving your breed's purpose.

MG

[Ruffshooter]

MG, You bring up a lot of great points. What was the Airdales true and origninal purpose as is stated in History? Were they bird dogs along with fur & or ground dogs? (Versitile)

I think that the terrier group (as a hunting and vermine dog) has been harmed most by show folks in that those folks don't seem to maintain a dual purpose (i.e. hunting and conformation). I am glad there are folks out there like Scott L that are enthusiatically hunting and testing their dogs.

I wish there were a better more appropriate venue.

As a side note Scott, are the Airdales considered a "hypoalergenic dog"? I have a friend that loves to hunt over my dogs but he would like his own. His Feince' is allergic to dogs. I know there is no truly Hypoalergenic dog but some are better than others.

Rick

[fuzznut]

Why shouldn't a breed be able to do any venue they choose? Let's look at some of the Versatile breeds. GWP's, GSP's, Griff's, all have been designated as Pointers. Thus, in the AKC world the only performance venue they can compete is in Pointing breed HT's and FTs. These breeds were meant to be more than Pointers, they are retrievers, and water dogs as well. Sure, we can go to NAVHDA to test for water and retrieving, but AKC doesn't recognize those achievements, and we don't carry those titles on pedigrees.

The dale folks have been asking for a venue to test their dogs and they finally have one. Good for them. Hopefully they will come out in numbers and prove their dogs. And I highly doubt dales do much earth dog..... unless they come in a pocket size as well as the large size.

We all piss and moan that today's breeders don't breed with the dogs purpose in mind, well, unless the parent clubs and the breeders make it important for them to do so, it won't change. Unless AKC opens events to them, it won't change.

What was a dales historical purpose? Farm dog I believe. Do whatever the farmer wanted done. They are terriers, but there are go to ground terriers, and then there are the open field terriers. Some terriers never went to ground, I would guess the Dale is one of those breeds. Did you know Dales were used as guard dogs and some compete today in Schutzen sports. Some are used as bear dogs, hog dogs, etc. There is quite the following of these dogs as large game dogs out west.

Why not welcome these dogs, their owners and their breeders with open arms and congratulate them for caring? Who cares what they are named, bottom line, what can they do. I doubt highly AKC sought the Dales out and asked them to do this, the small amount of revenue it will bring in is pretty minimal. Will probably cost more in paperwork and manpower than what it will bring in for them.

Fuzz

[ezzy333]

It seems to me any dog should be able to compete in any venue and if they canpass then they should have the title. Seems a little strange to me thata dog has to be declared a certain type before they can compete.

Ezzy

[shags]

Ditto Fuzznut.

Airedales are awesome dogs, and very versatile if bred correctly. I'm glad to see that AKC is allowing performance events for more breeds, rather than delegating them to agility and the show ring.

Another truly versatile terrier is the Jagd, which goes to varmints above and below ground, hogs, big cats, and other large game; they flush upland birds and water retrieve ducks and geese; and bloodtrail. The German testing system for them is strict. They are not AKC recognized and I hope they never are.

[crackerd]

It seems to me any dog should be able to compete in any venue and if they canpass then they should have the title. Seems a little strange to me thata dog has to be declared a certain type before they can compete.

That's both utopian and untenable at the same time. You could have a teckel at Ames--of course how would you ever see it on point? How would you know it wasn't lying down when backing? Or you could have a Rottie at a dock diving contest, which I saw a few weeks ago, and if it'd got any elevation, would've drained the pool. You could have a chihuahua coursing (sight hound competition). Or a Russian black terrier braced in a dachshund field trial. There must be some reasoning involved, which is what necessitates event rules and AKC classification. On the other hand, the retriever orgs., HRC and NAHRA, either allow all purebred dogs or gundogs for their tests, albeit with some restrictions, and Australia does same insofar as gundog eligibility for its retriever field trials.

Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, AKC is the last (sole) word for retriever and spaniel field trials; no other organization stages them (in this country; the CKC allows all spaniel breeds in Canadian FTs). So by that sanctioning, you have six of nine spaniel breeds that are not even permitted to run field trials, because those other dogs' breed clubs haven't approved them for competing.

Whereas now Airedales, a terrier, are going into spaniel hunt tests, in large part, and AKC can only hope in large numbers, to try and keep the program afloat. What spaniel judge will have ever seen an Airedale flush to know how to score it? Because in hunt tests, dogs are judged against a standard, not other dogs. Meanwhile, 'Dales actually could have their own hunt tests per AKC rules; they could even stage field trials restricted only to Airedales (unless certain spaniel breeds requested permission from the AKC to enter).

In truth, however, breed-exclusive field trials are sort of fools' gold for competitive handlers. And Brittanies have made the biggest mint of it with (devalued by my judgment) dual champions by having almost all their field trials open only to Brittanies. Which means a pointing field champion can be made up without ever running against another breed of pointer. Spaniels have that same limitation, springer trials are run only by springers and cocker trials by cockers--but as I said the other spaniel breeds aren't eligible for field trials. A field champion retriever must go against all comers, it can get only five points of the 10 needed for FC in a breed exclusive field trial.

But should breeds be banned because they might be "too good" on other breeds' turf? NAHVDA won't let pointing Labs play because they're not a "continental pointing breed," not a pointing breed period by AKC reckoning. But what of the other gundog breeds that are pointers, that are flushers, that are retrievers, by classification, but that are little known in this country? What's in it for them? The jagdterrier was rightly lauded above. Another great dog on any front from trailing to handling to killing vermin is the wachtelhund, which happens to be both Germany's national spaniel and national retriever breed. What about the Wheaten terrier, which is the same sort of all-rounder in Ireland? Or the French griffons, which are both boar hound kill dogs and trailers?

For them to find a place to play in the U.S., it's not so easy as getting slotted into a declining program like spaniel hunt tests--but then again, maybe that's the answer for owners of those breeds who want to do performance events in addition to hunting with their dogs. Find the course of least resistance...and of the most economic enticement to the AKC.

MG

[bobspheasant]

Wow! Thanks for all of the comments. That's why I made the post. The Airedale was originally bred as an all-around hunting dog that would help farmers in England poach whatever game they could from the local landlords. They were bred to hunt upland birds, water fowl or fur. Yes, they are a flushing dog, but some have been known to be pointers. I have a pointer who will hold a point until I give the command to flush, then he flushes. Airedales are good swimmers and many are used succesfully for hunting water fowl. For a long time, the Airedale Terrier Club of America has been trying to reinstate the Airedale's reputation as an all-around hunting dog. Many folks are not aware of Airedales' hunting ability since they have been excluded from hunt tests. This exclusion was because they are "Terriers" and Terriers are not considered to be a gun dog breed. Now that they are being formally recognized by the AKC (and earlier this year by the HRC) as the true hunting dogs they are, folks will eventually see them perform at hunt tests. Airedales hunt upland birds in a style that is more similar to spaniel breeds than to retrievers. Since spaniel tests are judged in a way that celebrates the ways that the different spaniel breeds hunt, it seemed to be the perfect fit for Airedales. Airedales have not been allowed to compete in the normal terrier ground tests. They are too large (males are generally 55-65 lbs) and they were not bred for that. Yes, Airedales are considered hypo-allergenic and do not shed. I am allergic to dogs myself. They do require occasional grooming in the form of either coat stripping or clipping, however.

When I was in South Dakota for the pheasant opener a couple of years ago I had several pople stop and ask me if my dog Bob was a "real hunting dog". I gave them each my usual story. When our guide asked the same question, I told him to wait and see. Later in the day and for the rest of the weekend, when the time came to send a dog into the thick cattails and other cover to root out the birds, he chose my dog over the lab that was with us. He also paid a nice complement to me later when he said he would hunt over my dog anytime!

[ezzy333]

It seems to me any dog should be able to compete in any venue and if they canpass then they should have the title. Seems a little strange to me thata dog has to be declared a certain type before they can compete.

That's both utopian and untenable at the same time. You could have a teckel at Ames--of course how would you ever see it on point? How would you know it wasn't lying down when backing? Or you could have a Rottie at a dock diving contest, which I saw a few weeks ago, and if it'd got any elevation, would've drained the pool. You could have a chihuahua coursing (sight hound competition). Or a Russian black terrier braced in a dachshund field trial. There must be some reasoning involved, which is what necessitates event rules and AKC classification. On the other hand, the retriever orgs., HRC and NAHRA, either allow all purebred dogs or gundogs for their tests, albeit with some restrictions, and Australia does same insofar as gundog eligibility for its retriever field trials.

Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, AKC is the last (sole) word for retriever and spaniel field trials; no other organization stages them (in this country; the CKC allows all spaniel breeds in Canadian FTs). So by that sanctioning, you have six of nine spaniel breeds that are not even permitted to run field trials, because those other dogs' breed clubs haven't approved them for competing.

Whereas now Airedales, a terrier, are going into spaniel hunt tests, in large part, and AKC can only hope in large numbers, to try and keep the program afloat. What spaniel judge will have ever seen an Airedale flush to know how to score it? Because in hunt tests, dogs are judged against a standard, not other dogs. Meanwhile, 'Dales actually could have their own hunt tests per AKC rules; they could even stage field trials restricted only to Airedales (unless certain spaniel breeds requested permission from the AKC to enter).

In truth, however, breed-exclusive field trials are sort of fools' gold for competitive handlers. And Brittanies have made the biggest mint of it with (devalued by my judgment) dual champions by having almost all their field trials open only to Brittanies. Which means a pointing field champion can be made up without ever running against another breed of pointer. Spaniels have that same limitation, springer trials are run only by springers and cocker trials by cockers--but as I said the other spaniel breeds aren't eligible for field trials. A field champion retriever must go against all comers, it can get only five points of the 10 needed for FC in a breed exclusive field trial.

But should breeds be banned because they might be "too good" on other breeds' turf? NAHVDA won't let pointing Labs play because they're not a "continental pointing breed," not a pointing breed period by AKC reckoning. But what of the other gundog breeds that are pointers, that are flushers, that are retrievers, by classification, but that are little known in this country? What's in it for them? The jagdterrier was rightly lauded above. Another great dog on any front from trailing to handling to killing vermin is the wachtelhund, which happens to be both Germany's national spaniel and national retriever breed. What about the Wheaten terrier, which is the same sort of all-rounder in Ireland? Or the French griffons, which are both boar hound kill dogs and trailers?

For them to find a place to play in the U.S., it's not so easy as getting slotted into a declining program like spaniel hunt tests--but then again, maybe that's the answer for owners of those breeds who want to do performance events in addition to hunting with their dogs. Find the course of least resistance...and of the most economic enticement to the AKC.

MG

Are our dogs not as capable of competeing if they do not have the appropriate pedigree? Maybe we do the same for the olympics. Only open each competion to those who meet our standards. I still think you only judge what you can see and if an airdale wants to point and does it well then it just might place in a pointer trial and if a GWP does a better job of retrieving then why should it not place in a retriever trial?

When one of our games is dreamed up and we set the standards that will be judged then I do not see why we have to limit the dogs that can even compete. Open it up and let the best dog win regardless of breed. Just seems fair to me.

What spaniel judge will have ever seen an Airedale flush to know how to score it?

And it seems your posts backs up that premis as well. I think they judge or should at least the flush with no regard what so ever as to what breed of dog it is.

Ezzy

Ezzy

[bobspheasant]

We have an "Airedale Terrier Hunting Style" document being revised now for AKC spaniel test judges. It will take some time to judges to get used to judging Airedales just as it will take time for Airedalers to get used to spaniel tests. The flushing tests put on by the Airedale Terrier Club of America in recent years are very similar, but their are subtle differences we hope to learn. We are hoping to become involved with spaniel clubs so we can learn the ropes and help out at tests.