EP sire question

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:58 am

birdogg42 wrote:big running dogs and BIG BIG RUNNING DOGS. :D
That is one way of putting it.

With me, an AA dog is like a Porsche and a shooting dog a Buick. Hit the gas and the difference is unmistakable.

I have read some talking about AA run. Like that is the only difference. And yes they run bigger, but they still must handle. And that is a separating factor, and most likely more of a factor than run. With an AA dog, the dog has to have the intelligence to know, to stay to the front and work objectives while out of site of the handler and still stay forward. In the closer working dogs the handler, or scout, moves the dog from objective to objective. In AA, the dog has to make that decision based on where he thinks the handler is. Big difference.

The great AA dogs are like another breed of dog. These AA guys go thru so many dogs, out of proven breedings, and still it is like finding a needle in a haystack. They are freaks. That is why AA dogs bring the money they do.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by jakemaster » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:20 am

With me, an AA dog is like a Porsche and a shooting dog a Buick
I agree AA dog like a Porsche BUT: Shooting dog like a Lexus its a smoooooooth ride and a pleasure to watch!! :D

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:08 am

Scotly50 -

I might not use quite the car analogy you did, :D :lol: but I do agree with most of what you said regarding All Age dogs. I am reminded of my mom's cars. She has had Buicks for as long as I can recollect. I clearly remember a big 'ol '65 buick Electra she had that had a 455 Wildcat engine under the hood. (I might hve the numbers wrong but it was a monster engine) It looked like a land yacht, and could seat six adults, in comfort, but when you mashed the pedal down, it would roar and could even grab rubber. But I digress...

In practical terms, however, the ability to discern the difference between an all age dog and a shooting dog, particularly a big running shooting dog is often severely limited by the size and configuraton of the venue. In a smaller venue, or one with twists and turns, the natural shooting dog actually has an advantage over the true all age dog, in my estimation. The old truism about nt being able to judge what you cannot see comes into it, I think. All things being equal, you will typically see the shooting dog more often and it will (again typically) be running a little fancier, while the all age dog will be out there, out of sight, using up more real estate with its (typically) longer stride and ground eating gait.

Where I have typically trialed, which is admittedly NOT out West, the only practical difference between a big running shooting dog and an all age dog is the length of time that the dog can be out of judgement before the judges start to lose interest. The size and configuration of the venue is very definitely a limiting factor. There are only about a half dozen venues, within a day's drive of me that can allow an all age dog to approach what it is capable of and really only one that I an aware of(Hoffman, NC although I personally have never been there) that is condusive to an all age performance. There is simply no place near me where you can turn a dog loose and ride for an hour in one direction to follow the dog.

There is often no discernible difference(to me at least) on a smaller venue between the all age dog race and the big running shooting dog race, except that you might expect to see the shooting dog a bit more. In a shooting dog stake in my area, I would expect the dog to pop back into view periodically and hunt its way out. I would expect the all age dog, typically , to line out more and be found on point to the front...wherever that may turn out to be.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Duane M » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:20 am

Big Dave wrote:This has become more of a general pointer line discussion. I would like to read some opinions on specific ep sires that you guys like, and why. Duane, Topher you midwest guys especially.
Dave IMO at the time we are in what could be called a recovery around here for a large part. We spent a decade ignoring some great stud dogs around here all for the flavor of the decade in the trial circuit, sad because there were some real good ones ignored. For my personal tastes few dogs threw as good as Bayou Elvis did along with the now deceased Hammer Down and Cliffs Elhew Sundancer. All three of them have some good get on the ground at the time and the best of those is a dog name of Teels Elhew Boomer, Boom is gonna throw some great pups when his owner gets around to breeding him. Roberst Hill Cinch has thrown some nice one's lately as well that will be making the rounds. Those are all walking dogs of course.
In horse back some good ones I have personally seen are Arapaho Hot Dog who will be bred this coming spring to a real nice bitch who's owner kennels her at our place. Alan Vincents Heyu Two Pete is looking good as well, but I have not seen alot of pups yet personally. Another is Daughertys Houses Snake Bite or Arapaho Player. Of those Player or Pete would be my personal picks. locally.
FWIW to ya I have some pups outta our dog Top Hats last litter, he was the top Derby in NBHA till he soured under SMs handle, but man he was an honest bird dog with great style and wheels. He threw some good uns but we sold all them to guys who were hunters only so they never made the news.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by springpoint » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:31 am

I know this is a very objective based question, but who do you guys think was the most influental sire in the last 10 years?

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:00 am

jakemaster wrote: I agree AA dog like a Porsche BUT: Shooting dog like a Lexus its a smoooooooth ride and a pleasure to watch!! :D
I think I like your analogy better than mine.
RayGubernat wrote: In practical terms, however, the ability to discern the difference between an all age dog and a shooting dog, particularly a big running shooting dog is often severely limited by the size and configuraton of the venue. In a smaller venue, or one with twists and turns, the natural shooting dog actually has an advantage over the true all age dog, in my estimation. The old truism about nt being able to judge what you cannot see comes into it, I think. All things being equal, you will typically see the shooting dog more often and it will (again typically) be running a little fancier, while the all age dog will be usng up more real estate with its (typically) longer stride and ground eating gait.

Where I have typically trialed, which is admittedly NOT out West, the only practical difference between a big running shooting dog and an all age dog is the length of time that the dog can be out of judgement before the judges start to lose interest. The size and configuration of the venue is very definitely a limiting factor. There are only about a half dozen venues, within a day's drive of me that can allow an all age dog to approach what it is capable of and really only one that I an aware of(Hoffman, NC although I personally have never been there) that is condusive to an all age performance. There is simply no place near me where you can turn a dog loose and ride for an hour in one direction to follow the dog.

There is often no discernible difference(to me at least) on a smaller venue between the all age dog race and the big running shooting dog race, except that you might expect to see the shooting dog a bit more. In a shooting dog stake in my area, I would expect the dog to pop back into view periodically and hunt its way out. I would expect the all age dog, typically , to line out more and be found on point to the front...wherever that may turn out to be.
I do not pretend to be the authoritative voice for the AA circuit or in any way speak for them. I simply know more about them because of my locale. (Western Kentucky) We have arguably the best breeders for all age pointers in the country within under an hour of me in any direction. Obviously Ferrell Miller, Joe Don House, Gary Lester, Ray Warren, Ike Todd, and Ben Adams who either handle or breed top AA dogs. But again I do not, in any manner, speak for any of these guys.

With respect to your statement about a "big running shooting dog" and an all age dog. At first thought I could not agree with your statement, but after thinking about it I might agree. Comes to mind a statement made by a professional baseball scout about talent in Major League baseball. He said, " Eighty percent of the players in the league all have about the same amount of talent, ten percent have greater talent and they are the superstars, the last ten percent can go back and forth between Minor and Major leagues".

A "big running shooting dog", I believe would fall into that last ten percent.

With respect to your statement about venues:
In practical terms, however, the ability to discern the difference between an all age dog and a shooting dog, particularly a big running shooting dog is often severely limited by the size and configuraton of the venue. In a smaller venue, or one with twists and turns, the natural shooting dog actually has an advantage over the true all age dog, in my estimation.
I think great dogs adjust to the terrain they are in. I believe it is the mark of a truly great AA dog. In one of my previous posts I alluded to the fact, the dog has to adjust in an all age trial; when the terrain gets tight "the superstars" have the intelligence to adjust their race. It seems many just do not understand exactly what an AA race is all about. It is not turning a dog loose and it takes off in a dead sprint straight ahead for an hour. That prevailing mentality is why Ferrell did so well with his breeding.

Edit: I just remembered we have a couple of pretty good shooting dog breeders here also. Scott Shrum has bred a couple champions at Four Rivers Kennels, Covergirl and Commander, and also Rob Butler with Elhew Sinbad and Elhew Swami. I know Sinbad jumped ship into the AA circuit but they are world class shooting dogs.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:48 pm

Scotly50 -

We are all subject to the experiences we have had and the area we operate in. As with yourself, I do not pretend to speak for anyone but myself and try to remain within my personal experiences as regards commentary. Within striking distance of western KY there are indeed some outstanding all age breeders, trainers, handlers and venues.

In my area, the expertise leans more toward shooting dogs. There are the Tracys, George and Michael who have been perennial handler of the year winners and continue to be among the top shooting dog handlers in the nation. There is Luke Eisenhart who has handled at least one Purina Shooting dog of the year that I am aware of in the last couple of years and took over the trialing of Mrawsum from Bruce Jacobs(another outstanding trainer) when bruce decided to scale back his travel schedule. I seem to recall Luke took a few of his shooting dogs down South a couple of years back and entered them in all age stakes. I hear he made some folks pay attention. Harold Ray has been a perennial force with is Smith setters. There are others.

As far as amateurs are concerned,there are a bunch of outstanding and successful ones. Frank Henderson comes to mind as a perennial top flight competitor, as is Brian Sanchez. A fair number of amateurs have their dogs trained and campaigned by these and other pros, but on any given day, those same dogs can toe the line with their amateur owner/handler in charge as well. Pete Del Collo comes to mind with Sugarknoll Buckshot and Dr. Roger Duerksen with Hifalutin(one of my very favorite dogs to watch), Talisman, Klee's Showboat and Klee's Calypso. Tom Hance, Tom Downs, Merv Eisenhart, Roger Boser with his red dogs...the list goes on. They can all beat you into the ground and if there is a major trial...you can bet that some or all of them will show up.

You are correct that there are not the numbers of all age folks in the east that are present in your area. But there are a few. The Liesfelds, Aubrey Morgan and Gary Winall are from VA and they have had a dog or two that can run a lick.

The grounds are different, in different parts of the country and they tend to skew the distribution of the attributes which make for a successful dog in each of those areas.

I also wholeheartedly agree that the best of them, be they all age or shooting dog... have the capacity to adapt.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:26 pm

To the AA guys, what do you think of Strut? He was the winningest Derby in AF history and yet I have heard him described as just a big running Shooting Dog. I think the "Shooting Dog" label is because of the extra animation and style he has "going" vs. the typical AA dog.

What do you think??

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:45 pm

Yawallac wrote:To the AA guys, what do you think of Strut? He was the winningest Derby in AF history and yet I have heard him described as just a big running Shooting Dog. I think the "Shooting Dog" label is because of the extra animation and style he has "going" vs. the typical AA dog.

What do you think??
You know I have heard the same thing about Sean Derrig's dog Tin Soldier. I have heard him described the same way.

Yet he keeps winning AA championships. He is the same age as Gary's Snowatch dog, which is a Miller bred, and supposedly a true AA dog, yet Tin Soldier has never lost to Snowwatch !

Again I am not trying to imply I am an expert on AA dogs. It is just I know a great deal more about them than I do the shooting dog venue. I have just as much respect for a Champion SD as I do for an AA champion. There are both "superstars" in their respective venues.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:41 pm

Scotly50 and Ross -

I wouldn't be surprised if a good bit of that is "sour grapes". A loser is everybodys friend, but when you win... look out. Those dogs are winning, and that don't sit well with some of the folks who have their bankrolls and egos invested elsewhere. So they spout what they perceive to be slurs. God forbid someone should breed a bona fide all age gyp to a "big running shooting dog" THAT ISN'T ONE OF THEIRS.

The funny thing is...those kinds of "negative" comments are exactly what I want to hear about an all age dog. That says to me that the dog has an abiding desire to stay with its handler while running fancy and still burning up the countryside . THAT is a lot of what I want in a stud dog.

That being said, I truly hope we shall always be able to draw a distinction between the shooting dog and the all age dog. As one who enjoys a shooting dog performance, I like knowing where to go when I want a little more "juice".

If there comes a time when there is no real difference between the all age dog and the big running shooting dog, it seems to me that we have all lost something.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by BrettBryan » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:06 pm

Ross,
My cousin has judged Strut a few times. I asked him last year what he thought about the dog. He said, he's not a big dog, but he's got a big heart. He's a bird dog. A dang nice bird dog.

I can't remember all the things he told me about him, but I do remember those comments about him.

I'm not sure how he's going to produce as a sire yet. I would think it's a little early to tell. Someone did tell me he's not throwing real big running dogs. Maybe, they havn't found the nick yet. I don't see how they can tell at this point. I mean he was a derby last year.

I know you have bred to him. How do you think the pups are turning out as far as the run they have?
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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:39 pm

I know you have bred to him. How do you think the pups are turning out as far as the run they have?
I did breed to him. One of the pups (Derbies now) has Open Derby wins in the grouse woods(w/Scott Chafee), one has Open Derby NBHA wins (w/me), one has SD Horseback wins (w/John Ray Kimbrell & me) and one is now on Dave Grubbs AA string. So I'm pretty happy with what he produced ...although I'm sure most of the "good stuff" came from Sarah! :D

Actually, I got real flashy movement going ...with a litte extra juice! :D

Ray, I'm pretty sure that I'd like to run dogs with you sometime. :)
Last edited by Yawallac on Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

scotly50

Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:24 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Scotly50 and Ross -

I wouldn't be surprised if a good bit of that is "sour grapes". A loser is everybodys friend, but when you win... look out. Those dogs are winning, and that don't sit well with some of the folks who have their bankrolls and egos invested elsewhere. So they spout what they perceive to be slurs. God forbid someone should breed a bona fide all age gyp to a "big running shooting dog" THAT ISN'T ONE OF THEIRS.

The funny thing is...those kinds of "negative" comments are exactly what I want to hear about an all age dog. That says to me that the dog has an abiding desire to stay with its handler while running fancy and still burning up the countryside . THAT is a lot of what I want in a stud dog.

That being said, I truly hope we shall always be able to draw a distinction between the shooting dog and the all age dog. As one who enjoys a shooting dog performance, I like knowing where to go when I want a little more "juice".

If there comes a time when there is no real difference between the all age dog and the big running shooting dog, it seems to me that we have all lost something.

RayG
Excellent post. Well said

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:00 pm

That being said, I truly hope we shall always be able to draw a distinction between the shooting dog and the all age dog. As one who enjoys a shooting dog performance, I like knowing where to go when I want a little more "juice".
I believe that there is a lot more to a great Shooting Dog than just an AA dog that doesn't run big enough. And I also believe that a great AA dog is a lot more than just a Shooting Dog that runs too big.

They are two distinctively different animals ...and they are both beautiful.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by oakcreek » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:38 am

I personally like Erin's southern pride a lot, I have watched him run once, and been around him a hand full of times. He looks good on point, and runs with a snappy tail. Plus he has some good breeding behind him, and he is throwing classy pups.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:50 am

Yawallac wrote:
That being said, I truly hope we shall always be able to draw a distinction between the shooting dog and the all age dog. As one who enjoys a shooting dog performance, I like knowing where to go when I want a little more "juice".
I believe that there is a lot more to a great Shooting Dog than just an AA dog that doesn't run big enough. And I also believe that a great AA dog is a lot more than just a Shooting Dog that runs too big.

They are two distinctively different animals ...and they are both beautiful.
Oh yeah. How so?

I do not see any difference in a Walking, Shooting, or AA dog, (champion caliber), Other than race. I do not see any difference in style, point, or gait.

It is not that an AA dog runs more than the others, it is WHY it runs more, that separates them.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:12 am

Oakcreek,

We have a litter on the ground out of Pride right now. I purchased a female bred to him. When she arrived I was happy with her bird work but was pretty disappointed with her looks. She may actually be the ugliest Pointer I have ever seen!! She's small, spindly, marked up like a dairy cow, snippy head, just butt ugly!!

What's remarkable is that the litter turned out beautiful. Only one pup in the whole litter has a body mark and it's small and unobtrusive. They have great bone, nice heads and they are all running around with high cracking tails. If he can do that with that female then he must be some kind of stud!! I have heard of similar results from others that have bred to him as well.
I do not see any difference in a Walking, Shooting, or AA dog, (champion caliber), Other than race. I do not see any difference in style, point, or gait.
My experience is different I guess. I believe that Shooting Dogs have more style going. They must have more style going to separate the winners. It is one of the most important parts of a Shooting Dogs abilities IMO. Any dog can be broke on its birds but a Shooting Dog is "under visable judgement" much more than an AA dog so it stands to reason that they need more animation and style to win. In general, Shooting Dogs have a much different gait than an AA dog. Many almost seem to bounce, zip, dash and snap rather than the longer distance chewing stride of an AA dog. IMO its much more than race when you compare the best Shooting Dogs to the best AA dogs. JMO.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by scotly50 » Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:21 am

Yawallac wrote:
I do not see any difference in a Walking, Shooting, or AA dog, (champion caliber), Other than race. I do not see any difference in style, point, or gait.
My experience is different I guess. I believe that Shooting Dogs have more style going. They must have more style going to separate the winners. It is one of the most important parts of a Shooting Dogs abilities IMO. Any dog can be broke on its birds but a Shooting Dog is "under visable judgement" much more than an AA dog so it stands to reason that they need more animation and style to win. In general, Shooting Dogs have a much different gait than an AA dog. Many almost seem to bounce, zip, dash and snap rather than the longer distance chewing stride of an AA dog. IMO its much more than race when you compare the best Shooting Dogs to the best AA dogs. JMO.
Do you think the difference in style is directly related to a shooting dog slowing down to "hunt" more than an AA dog does?

That is the difference in style, I assumed, was the difference between the two. But, I have only seen one SD stake. So I cannot intelligently offer anything but an opinion on a SD stake. I guess I could, but it would certainly make me look foolish.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:27 am

Do you think the difference in style is directly related to a shooting dog slowing down to "hunt" more than an AA dog does?
I own one of those AA "freaks" and when he slows down, his style improves ...but it doesn't compare to my best Shooting Dogs that naturally have a gait that is hard driving, fast and very animated. Extreme animation is what separates the dogs in Shooting Dog trials. I suspect that is why Ferrell sent someone to the grouse woods to add style to an AA line.

I don't believe that the best AA dogs "hunt" any less, necessarily, than the best Shooting Dogs, but they cover a lot more ground doing it. The Shooting Dog just looks better getting it done (IMO - just a style preference). But I will always breed my Shooting Dog females to AA producing studs because I want "run" and "style". :D

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Re: EP sire question

Post by DGFavor » Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:57 am

They must have more style going to separate the winners. It is one of the most important parts of a Shooting Dogs abilities IMO.
Any dog can be broke on its birds but a Shooting Dog is "under visable judgement" much more than an AA dog so it stands to reason that they need more animation and style to win.
Ooooh, I'm having chest pain. It'd be alot easier to prance 'em around a ring wouldn't it? :lol: :lol:

Personally, I wish we'd abandon the SD/AA designations and put up the dogs that plain and simple handle the available country, the birds, the conditions - bluntly, just out birddogs - the competition. Trying to stuff dogs, their looks and their performances, into pre-conceived templates of what's good and bad doesn't work IMO.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:13 am

Nice in theory, but probably not practical, simply because a dog bred and developed for the prairies is probably not going to be able to compete against a dog bred and developed for the grouse woods.... just different dogs.

But I certainly agree with you Doug. In fact, that is my primary mission with our breeding program. I am trying to create a line that is versatile enough to run when I mount a horse and hunt close when I'm in a woodcock covert. Don't know if I can make the leap to AA with the same dog ...but it's the dream none the less. :D

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Re: EP sire question

Post by DGFavor » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:39 am

Nice in theory, but probably not practical, simply because a dog bred and developed for the prairies is probably not going to be able to compete against a dog bred and developed for the grouse woods.... just different dogs.
Grouse Ridge Will - Grand Nat'l Grouse Ch., Nat'l Phez Ch., Georgia Quail Ch. - produced dogs successful from the prairies to the deep south.
I am trying to create a line that is versatile enough to run when I mount a horse and hunt close when I'm in a woodcock covert. Don't know if I can make the leap to AA with the same dog ...but it's the dream none the less.
Good bird dogs are good bird dogs - go do whatever ya' want with 'em!! Simple stuff.;)

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Sharon » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:13 am

DGFavor wrote:
Personally, I wish we'd abandon the SD/AA designations and put up the dogs that plain and simple handle the available country, the birds, the conditions - bluntly, just out birddogs - the competition. Trying to stuff dogs, their looks and their performances, into pre-conceived templates of what's good and bad doesn't work IMO.

Now there's an "out of the box" thought. :)
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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:48 am

Grouse Ridge Will - Grand Nat'l Grouse Ch., Nat'l Phez Ch., Georgia Quail Ch. - produced dogs successful from the prairies to the deep south.
Thought this thread was about Pointers ....now I have chest pain! :twisted:

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Re: EP sire question

Post by DGFavor » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:19 pm

Haha! Oh yah! Forgot about that detail!! Was almost gonna blab some GSP stuff - glad I refrained!! Coulda killed ya' right off! :lol:

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Yawallac » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:00 pm

yeah, I was waiting for the GSP references bob-tail boy!! :lol:

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Re: EP sire question

Post by cgbirddogs » Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:02 pm

[quote="scotly50"]It has been my experience that a dog trained on lib's will bump wild birds, generally requiring additional training.

quote]


That's been my experience as well. A couple years back I hunted with a champion that had never had a season of wild bird hunting and he was lost out there, knocking birds, false pointing and Lord knows what else. Not his fault, it was his owner's fault for never exposing him to wild birds. He really thought he was going to "put it on" my seasoned wild bird dogs. They ate his lunch. Let there be no mistake: You can't make a wild bird dog without exposing him judiciously to wild birds. It does not magically occur. I tell you what though: I sure would love to have the experience of taking one of these big running twinning trial dogs who didn't get raised on wild birds and giving him the experience out West. In the long run, with exposure, they'll become exceptional wild bird dogs just like they are exceptional libby dogs.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:19 pm

Scotly50 -

I have seen a few pretty fair all age dogs over the years, starting with the time Lefty Henry and Fred DiLeo came up to NJ to run in the Garden State All Age. Lefty was running Marques Gold Rush and I believe Fred was running Frontline Spike, among other dogs, but I'm not postitive on Fred's dogs. I try to go see a couple of all age trials each year, just to see what there is to see. I mostly participate in horseback shooting dog stakes and will do a walking stake every once in a while.

What I have noticed in terms of differences between the All age dogs I have seen, as a group, and the shooting dogs I have seen, again as a group, are really not related to race, but more to application and "animation" while running.

Keep in mind that I said"as a group; and that there wil always be individuals who do it different than "the group". These are general observations that I think are valid, based on my own observatons. The old saw "results may vary" definitely applies here.

The first of the two differences is in running style. The all age dogs , for the most part, run with a floating tail when they are hunting and I have occasionally seen one that hunted with a merry tail. The shooting dogs, for the most part, run with a merry or sometimes even a cracking tail when hunting. The ones that run with a floating tail while hunting typically do not place in the bigger stakes, so you do not see it much. This placement preference may be a function of where I trial and may be different in other parts of the country. I cannot say.

The second difference I have noticed(and to me the most significant difference)has to do with comeback, checking with the handler and how each of the types of dogs manages it. Both the all age dog and the shooting dog have to have comeback. Arguably the all age dog has to have more comeback. At least I believe it must.

The all age dog(typically) seems to check with the handler in a very abbreviated way such as a quick sideways glance as it is heading straight out of a field into the next one or a quick glance back as it tops a rise and heads away to where it percieves the front to be.

The shooting dog, by way of contrast, may well break right or left when it hits the end of that same field instead of driving right into the nest field and take the other edge part way back and then hunt its way pretty much straight out through the field. The walking shooting dog may well take this even further, coming most of the way back up that other edge before cutting across the handler's path and hunting the field out even more thoroughly than its horseback cousin.

Each type of dog gets it done, but a little differently.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by BrettBryan » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:36 pm

Ray,

Thanks for answering my question about Bear Creek Bess. Sound's like she was bred right to run. I've enjoyed seeing so many opinions on the subject. thanks to all.
Old dogs, children, and watermelon wine

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Re: EP sire question

Post by lvrgsp » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:49 pm

If I am looking at one of Sean Derrig's dogs, personally I am looking at Bad River, awesome dog on the ground, impeccable breeding......
Or Lancelot...............love his pups there awesome...
Just my .02 worth....

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Re: EP sire question

Post by ymepointer » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:20 am

Hey this was a really good thread :lol: I know it's sort of old but I thougt I would just throw out what little I know about the Miller bred stuff.... :lol:

i have had 4 White dogs so to speak over the last 13 years, 1 a direct daughter of Millers Silver bullet(at least in theory :lol: ); 1 direct daughter of Whippoorwill Wildcard(at least in theory :lol: ) one direct son out of Millers Dateline/ or online(this litter had a little problem with who was the real sire :roll: ) and finally a direct daugher out of Sir Lancelot(unless Holye lied to me :lol: ) of the 4 the most natural bird dogs were the ones out of Sir Lancelot and Silver bullet and my silver bullet bitch was probably the best bird dog I have ever owned. The wildcard bitch was the hardest to break but the biggest running dog I have ever owned, and the online dateline pup ended up in a pet home, he just didn't have anything really. I only have two left, as I sold that bullet pup to a more serious field trialer, she was a dandy, but he did not win much with her. My wildcard bitch is now about 13 years old I think and my sir lancelot bitch just turned 5 or 6.


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PkerStr8Tail
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Re: EP sire question

Post by PkerStr8Tail » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:12 pm

I have a female out of Erin's Bad River for those who like his pups. She is very nice and shows class going and on point.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Trailgunner » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:09 am

What were the pros and cons with Funseekers Rebel?

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Re: EP sire question

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:27 pm

Trailgunner wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:09 am
What were the pros and cons with Funseekers Rebel?
Depending on the person responding and what they are looking for in a dog:

The pros are that Funseeker's Rebel had a whole lot of A Rambling Rebel in his pedigree.

The cons are that Funseeker's Rebel had a whole lot of A Rambling Rebel in his pedigree.

Rebel bred dogs tend to be very independent, physically and mentally tough bird dogs. A singular mission to seek and find birds is their driving force.

They tend to be a whole lot of dog...more dog than most are comfortable with. I never saw him run, but from all I have read, Funseeker's Rebel was cut from that same cloth.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by cjhills » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:53 am

12 year old post. Most of them dogs are long were old then and are long gone now, or live in somebody's memory......Cj

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Re: EP sire question

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:45 am

cjhills wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:53 am
12 year old post. Most of them dogs are long were old then and are long gone now, or live in somebody's memory......Cj
FWIW -

A fair number of the dogs mentioned on previous posts have been collected and are still being bred, albeit very selectively.

Also, the real reason to have these dogs in your dog's pedigree is the hope and expectation that some of the stellar qualities they possessed, got passed down to succeeding generations.

A Rambling Rebel and Guard Rail appear to be two of those dogs whose abilities have crossed a multi- generational barrier and still breed "the right stuff" into their decendants.

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by Pedro » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:53 am

It is an old post, but I enjoyed reading it, as I'm a fan of AA pointers. Even though most all the dogs talked about are dead, their blood lives on, and the same arguments in regards to Mr. Miller, cancer in what lines, AA vs SD sires, wild bird vs libby...continue to this day.

There are guys on this old thread that have forgotten more about bird dogs than most of us will ever know.

And thanks to Ray. He's been a long time contributor to this forum who I put in the forgotten vs will ever know camp.

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Re: EP sire question

Post by cjhills » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:47 am

It would seem that with all the science, information, breeding expertise, better care and health tests ,we would be breeding better dogs now than twelve years ago. Especially on the average. Not sure that we are......Cj

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Re: EP sire question

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:21 pm

cjhills wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:47 am
It would seem that with all the science, information, breeding expertise, better care and health tests ,we would be breeding better dogs now than twelve years ago. Especially on the average. Not sure that we are......Cj
cJ -

I can only respond to that statement regarding pointers, and to a lesser extent setters.

We are indeed breeding better dogs, in many ways, in the breeds mentioned above. However, the "old time" all age dogs were something very special.

They were trained and handled, in many cases, BEFORE the common usage of things like GPS or trackers or e-collars. That means those dogs ran to the limits, but still came back around for their handler...not because they had to, but because they CHOSE to. For an apex predator that is bred and conditioned to run with independence into the next zip code in search of game, to actually WANT to come back for their handler to include them in the hunt...is very, very special That kind of genetic selection process does not exist today with the advent of electronics. Dogs can be "encouraged" to cooperate and can be "guided". in the old days, many of those dogs would be gone and never recovered.

The upshot of this is that many more dogs "make the cut" because we can help them to learn what we want them to do. The "old time" selection process was harsh and unforgiving, but it really narrowed down and shaped the gene pool for that type of dog. Trainers went to the prairies with forty well bred youngsters and came back with three or four.

The direction of breeding in pointers and setters has been much more toward shooting dogs and walking shooting dogs in recent years. There has been considerable movement toward a more cooperative , closer working, easier handling dog. Bob Whele was very instrumental in that with his Elhew breeding. Unfortunately, that cooperative nature often comes at the expense of some of the fiery and fierce independence, which isn't so bad, but may also introduce a level of "softness' that can lessen the willingness of the dogs to dive into cover and/or take discipline.

Soooo, if someone's kennel needs and infusion of "juice" because the dogs they are producing are losing their drive and toughness(physical and/or mental), those old time dogs can "put some of that back in there".

RayG

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Re: EP sire question

Post by birdogg42 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:51 pm

Hate for this thread to die off.
Anyone know whatever happened to Shadows Attitude?

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