opinions of ofa and penn hip?

[Miss Bella]

Hello All, I am starting my search for a new pup. I am wondering those of you who breeders what do you consider an acceptable hip rating for either penn hip or ofa when you are looking at pedigrees and potential sire and dams . Would you buy a puppy from a breeding that hasn't had hips rated ?

Thanks for your input.

[dlfl]

I am not a breeder so will only coment on the dogs not being classified for hips. Why take a bigger chance of getting bad hips? I would not purchase from a breeder that did not get one or the other done on both adults.

[kninebirddog]

OFA is what I prefer reason is I can go to http://www.offa.org and see what dogs ahve been done and if those dogs have a number they pass if they did't get a number then they didn't pass

Penn Hip I don't care for ..it can be a great program PROVIDED you know from a source Other then the breeder what is the acceptable precentile for the breed your looking at and the penn hip website is poorly done not allowing you to research what is and isn't accpetable making you rely on what the breeder tells you and there are breeders out there that will stretch things into making them sound acceptable when your looking at somevery poor ratings

With that said

You still need to look to the breeder as those result Will not and can not garuantee that pups from the litter will be HD free

I have personally gotten pups from Excellent rated parents only to get a dysplastic pup...why the breeder if you purchase a pup for top money...those breeders should stand behind their breedings if you end up with a dog with bad hips either some refund of monies or a replacement pup from another breeding that is something you need to discuss with them

as for will I buy with out ratngs...I ahve but again I only bought from a breeder who stands behind their breedings and though I do OFA if anything is wrong with those pups that breeder will take care of me...where another breeder that did do all the OFA and stuff I got a Sorry the hips are so shallow make a hunting dog out of her response...I spent 750 for that pup I bought her for my program..she now belongs to a family with full disclosure of her hips and is spayed ...heart break on her cause she was a extremely nice breeding of a extremely well known HOF dog which I found out the hard way on some others of the same type breedings of the same lines to have not so good hips..all were spayed and replaced

So there is a scope of both sides and the middle of the coin

[kninebirddog]

PS ...all my breeding stock is OFA'd

[BrettBryan]

Miss Bella,
A lot of English Pointer and English Setter breeders don't OFA their dogs. I guess they figure if a dog can run a 3 hour endurance stake, he's got to have decent hips. If a dog has weak hips, he'll probably get weeded out pretty quick in these kind of stakes.

As far as German Shorthairs are concerned, good responsible breeders usually do have their dogs OFA'd. Personally, I consider OFA "Excellent" or OFA "Good" to be the hip papers you need to see to "breed" a dog. If the sire or dam has anything less than OFA "Good", why are you breeding the dog? What I'm saying is, if a dog has been OFA'd "Fair" hips or worse, that's not good enough for breeding. Why take a chance breeding a OFA "Fair" hip dog? That's not helping the breed imo. You are flirting with hip displaysia. Why take the chance?

"Fair" hips are right next to Borderline. Why take a chance breeding a dog that's right around borderline of having bad hips. To me, it can only lead to trouble down the road. Why breed that dog?

Saying this, I would not buy a Shorthair without seeing the OFA certification atleast "Good" on the sire and dam. Why take the chance? You buy a pup, take all the time to train the pup, love the pup. You don't want to see that dog get bad hips at 6 years old and go through that agony. I've seen it in labs, why take that chance.

I hope this helps. This is my opinion on breeding stock.

[CherrystoneWeims]

OFA is what I prefer reason is I can go to http://www.offa.org and see what dogs ahve been done and if those dogs have a number they pass if they did't get a number then they didn't pass

Penn Hip I don't care for ..it can be a great program PROVIDED you know from a source Other then the breeder what is the acceptable precentile for the breed your looking at and the penn hip website is poorly done not allowing you to research what is and isn't accpetable making you rely on what the breeder tells you and there are breeders out there that will stretch things into making them sound acceptable when your looking at somevery poor ratings

OK I'm going to add something here.

I PennHip my dogs. The positioning of the dog during the radiographs is much more stable. It also is not a subjective evaluation. The films are measured and mathmatical calculations are done to measure the Distraction Index of the hips. People who don't understand PennHip make the mistake of looking at the Percentile instead of the DI of the hips.

I've seen too many dogs who are OFA'd come back as moderately dysplastic, the films are redone and resubmitted and then the dog comes back Excellent??? What is wrong with this picture. I've also seen dogs who come back PennHip 0.42 DI and they are given an OFA Excellent. 0.42 are pretty loose hips and IMHO should never be used in a breeding program.

When someone is interested in a puppy from me I give them a copy of the PennHip results. I don't just tell them the Percentile. I've seen some unscrupulous breeders tell buyers that the parents are in the 70% and make the buyer think those are great hips when in fact they are not.

The Boykin Spaniel breed has made great strides in improving the breed's hips by using PennHip. They used to use OFA and they got nowhere.

I would never buy a puppy whose parents are not hip certified. I also would want to see that the grandparents were cert.

[Karen]

I don't entirely agree with BrettBryan. OFA fair is a passing rating. There is no such thing as a borderline rating. The dog either passes or fails. They're either dysplastic or they're not, and fair is NOT dysplastic. I would absolutely consider using an OFA fair dog in a breeding program if I thought they had something special to offer with the caveat that the dog had better have at least 2 generations of OFA goods or excellents behind it, and the more generations with passing OFA ratings, the better.

As for dysplastic dogs getting weeded out in the field, don't beleive that for a second. Some do quite well in the field, and although I don't agree with them being bred, they are, and people knowingly buy the pups.

[Fieldmaster]

Personally I will not consider breeding anything with less than Good hips. There are to many nice dogs out there. There was a Dual Champion that I would have liked to breed to a few years ago but his hips were fair. Not taking that chance. Wouldn't breed to a dog who had fair pointing ability so why do the same with the dogs health.

As for Penn Hip I don't follow them that much , I think some use them when they don't get the desired results they want back from OFA. Sure they are a good service though.


Robert

[kninebirddog]

Fair is perfectly fine
I would much rather breed to a fair with a good history then an excellent with a bad history

I wish OFA would reword fair cause it makes it sound wors then it truely is

If a dog gets an OFA number it is well with in the breeding parameters

And Bottom Line all that the OFA does is let you know you are breeding sound stock

PS a moderate dog will show NO SIGNS of any HD till MAybe in its later life

I know dogs that are Mild that are 8 plus years old and show NO clinical signs at all of hip problems and unless one had taken Hip xrays they would go on assuming that there is nothing wrong with the dog

I have seen an extremely dysplatic pup jump 8 foot high till she was about 4 years old after that it wasn't untill she was 6 that the real arthric change caused a big change in her

and then I have seen an extremely dysplastic pup not be able to barely walk when she became about 9 months old

[RoundRiver Setters]

It is a crap shoot no matter what you do. There is no guarantee either way. I have seen excellent dogs produce fair. I would not buy a pup from somebody who does not have the parents hips checked, nor would I breed a dog that is fair. I found a 5 year old setter that had the style, looks and the pedigree I wanted ,but his hips were fair. His dad was OFA excellent...............Scott

[CherrystoneWeims]

I think if a dog is exellant to fair they are breedable. The penn hip medium number keeps fluxuating with the number of dogs exrayed in there program. Meaning ( gsgs ) Setters,pointers in there own catagory.
Penn Hip says they can read a exray at early as 4mths.and give you a rating. I don't agree . Dogs are still growing. Friends who do nothing put Penn Hip have found that it is better to wait tell the dog is about 16 , 18 mths old before they exray Penn Hip. At early ages they have found at times to get bad numbers ownly to exray later on and get good numbers. Both systems have there faults. I like OFA. Howie Hill

I don't agree with having a dog hip scored that young either. I wait until they are 2 yrs. old.

I have had a dog done at an earlier age to decide if the dog is worth continuing on with further campaigning. I don't want to spend a ton of money on a dog who I can't use in my breeding program! I then have the dog done again at a later date for a permanent score.

[phermes1]

#1: I would not breed to dog that didn't have its hips done, and I wouldn't buy a puppy from a breeding where both parents' hips were not done.

#2: Nothing wrong with a fair rating. Before OFA came out with Fair, Good, and Excellent, it was straight pass/fail. And Fair was a passing rating. What's more important is the history behind the dog - if a dog has an excellent rating, but its pedigree shows a history of dysplastic or borderline dogs - that dog is a risk, excellent or no excellent.

#3: OFA is the gold standard for the AKC, and its database is public. I much prefer the ability to research pedigrees for hip ratings. What I don't like about OFA is that ratings are very dependent on the quality of the film, and OFA issues a rating basically no matter how poorly the film is done or how poorly the dog is positioned. The rating given is also sometimes dependent on which side of the bed the evalating vets got up on that morning. JMHO.
PennHipp is probably a more objective standard, but the results are kept private and that is a real problem for me. Besides that, I do know of folks that get PennHipps done and re-done until they get the results they desire.

[ezzy333]

i also would not breed to a dog with a Fair rating. But many people would and do and always use the excuse it had other qualities I liked. This is exactly the reason we make little progress. It makes sense to me, especially with the number of dogs available to use that you don't comprimise your principles if you are interested in breeding the best dogs you can. If not, then I too would find a reason to breed to something that has a known weakness that is almost to the point of being life threatening when you realize the quality of the dogs useful life may be cut short and be painful. Just isn't worth the chance of breeding a dog that is going to suffer just for our enjoyment.

Ezzy

[BrettBryan]

Karen, http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html It lists the OFA hip grades.

Am i missing something? Marginal is right below Fair.

I still stand by my belief. I think your odds are better at getting good hips in a pup if the sire and dam's past generations are good or excellent. Why breed to a marginal or borderline animal when you can breed to a Good or Excellent animal? It makes no sense to me.

I feel the same way about a dog in the field too. Why breed to a marginal dog in the field, when you can go to a really, really nice one.

To each his own.

[Fieldmaster]

i also would not breed to a dog with a Fair rating. But many people would and do and always use the excuse it had other qualities I liked. This is exactly the reason we make little progress. It makes sense to me, especially with the number of dogs available to use that you don't comprimise your principles if you are interested in breeding the best dogs you can. If not, then I too would find a reason to breed to something that has a known weakness that is almost to the point of being life threatening when you realize the quality of the dogs useful life may be cut short and be painful. Just isn't worth the chance of breeding a dog that is going to suffer just for our enjoyment.

Ezzy

Amen I agree 100%. To me if you start accepting "Fair" hip ratings sooner than later your hips will get worse and worse. Happened in the Labs and the Shepards.

Bottom line anything less than "Good" is below average.

Robert

[CherrystoneWeims]

Why don't you get a Preliminary OFA done? That way you will have some sort of certificate to give to your puppy buyers.

[kninebirddog]

OFA does Prelims www.offa.org

I wouldn't suggest doing pre lims till after 6 months of age


I have seen poorly taken x rayed on dogs that OFA asked for a new set to be taken then come back with good ratings
OFA wouldn't rate them because the Vet that took them did a poor job

PENN hip I am not saying is a bad program...What I am saying about PENN hip is they do not have a way for a person to inform and educate themselves so that they know what is accpetable PERCENTILE with in THEIR breed they are looking at
There is no history either of what was previous you only get the rating on the dog(s) your looking at.

And I do know for fact there are breeders out there that will flat out tell people that in brittanys a .53 is accpetable when another will say don't look at rating anything higher then a .40 in the brittany breed..for acceptable breeding rates

As far as I could figure on the PENN hip web site anything higher then a .30 is getting to how ever they describe it...but then they throw in some percentile things but so not give what is the accpetable percentiles for each breed so your back to having to trust what a breeder is telling you and yes there are breeders that will blow smoke your direction as to why they penn hip

Bottom Line None of the program WILL or CAN gaurantee that pups will be HD free or that the pups from said dams and sires will have, what ever the passing percentile rating is....all these programs Do is show that the breeders are trying to do their best to give the pups they are putting on the ground the best chances provided that the breeder is being hoenst in their programs

Mild and Moderate ...Unless a person has the dogs OFA'd ...one may never know if they have non passing hips but then again they may rate high enough in PENN hip that they will be bred

Personally if the dogs can't get a passing OFA i don't care if they have the best rating in PENN Hip if they fail to get an OFA number they Fail to be in my program.


this is a good to excellent produced a good excellent and borderline
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1304322#animal

Excellent to ?
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1312044#animal

these are good to good
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1054994#animal
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1263641#animal

To bad to report the ones that are young costs more then most are willing to pay cause there would be a lot more HD posted

Point here...it happens it may not be a common

even found a few that were bred then later were OFA'd only to fail OFA

So no matter what ...NAture has ways to remind us we are only human

[kninebirddog]

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1240915#animal

here is a prelim report

[kninebirddog]

also here is the form that is sent in with the x rays bottom right has the fees for the prelims
http://www.offa.org/hdappbw.pdf

[dlfl]

So what are the approx. costs to have these test done?

[phermes1]

http://www.offa.org/hipguide.html

Do not ignore the dog with a fair hip evaluation. The dog is still within normal limits. For example; a dog with fair hips but with a strong hip background and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect.

[Karen]

So what are the approx. costs to have these test done?

It really depends. I called around to a lot of vets in my area and got quotes from $150-500 for x-rays. Finally someone recommended a vet about 80 miles from me who does OFA x-rays for $75 (without anesthesia). Had both my adults done at the same time this summer...both came back good.

[3Britts]

Great thread. Good lively discussion.
I agree with those who would not breed or have their dogs bred to any dog without a "good' or better ofa rating. Fair may be a passing grade but the ofa people changed the rating system in order to show scale of the dogs. Both of my adult, 24 month and older, dogs are rated ofa good. And If you are interested, we'll have a litter in early june. I'll get pics up when they come.

[kninebirddog]

This is a ped of a female I have You can see her sire was excellent http://www.offa.org/vertpedigree.html?a ... 899#animal the grandsire was fair that produced the excellent

here is the dog I bred her to http://www.offa.org/vertpedigree.html?a ... 454#animal


I called Dr Keller cause I wanted to hear what he thought about what I was thinking before i bred these two he looked at her he asked does she display the things I want to see I said yes he said he wouldn't hesitate to breed to her

I asked about the mal...my male was rated Excellent Good good so his fiinal results is good ,,,one small spot prevented him from getting an excellent

He said again just on hip evaluation there was no reason for me not to consider this if both dogs displayed what i wanted in a program

I again think using the word FAIR was an extremely Poor choice of words on OFAs Behalf as Fair is not below standard Borderline is where it starts and if you learn to look at what they are looking at in x rays ..you will see fair is nothing to be afriad of and also is not substandard

what is not good is like this dog here had a litter in 02 and then was ofa'd himself in 08 and failed ofa http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1305292#animal there are some others

[3Britts]

Relax Knine,

We were just answering the original post, which was "Hello All, I am starting my search for a new pup. I am wondering those of you who breeders what do you consider an acceptable hip rating for either penn hip or ofa when you are looking at pedigrees and potential sire and dams . Would you buy a puppy from a breeding that hasn't had hips rated ?"
They asked what we all thought was an acceptable rating for breeding. I consider good or better for the parents of the puppies that I bought. I also consider the evaluation of Vets when picking pup is the ofa/penn have not been done. But when breeding, to answer the original post, I will consider only those rated at good or better. Simple statement of choice.

[kninebirddog]

I am relaxed just would hate to see someone think that a good or excellent parent is going to garuantee them any more then a fair will
Fair Good and Excellent are sound readings I think the word Fair is a very poor choice on OFA's behalf ..I was just trying to help people read and learn and see wth their own eyes from teh OFA website some reading

I would do that with PENN Hip but..they don't offer the information as what OFA does

I would and have bought pups from parents that were not OFA'd ...but the breeder is one that will stand up and reimburse me a pup or money if something doesn't OFA

where i have purchased a Pup for 750.00 bucks from an OFA excellent mother to an OFA good Sire and the pup I got was extremely dysplastic and the breeder basically told me to bad so sad ..I was out my money.

i think that is just as important to a potential buyer

we are just fine

[ezzy333]

Knine,

I think most people know that there is no guarantee that excellent produce excellent 100% of the time. However, it only makes sense that the better the parents the better your chance is with the pups. When breeding for any characteristic that is true.

I still wouldn't breed to any thing not rated excellent or good because of the same reason. Since we know excellent and good are above average, fair and borderline could be consider average and any rating below borderline has a problem , it only makes sense to me to breed where your chances are best and that means go with the ratings that are above average.

I don't think you would want to advise people to buy from dogs that haven't been x-rayed no matter what the breeder say he will do to guarantee the pups. At least not till the problem is under much more control than it is today. If the breeder hasn't or won't x-ray his dogs then I would suggest just walking away. Like you have said, many displastic pups don't show any sign of it for several years and by then any guarantee that had been made wouldn't be good . It's just not worth the chance because some breeder is being irresponsible. We need to solve this problem in our dogs instead of just trying to control it.

Ezzy

[kninebirddog]

Ezzy Borderline is not average Borderline doesn't get an OFA number so it is not breedable

I ahve spent time talking with Dr Keller
Fair is well with in the parameters of breeding

You also need to find out HOw the ratings were when you get them as it is an average of 3 readings

so
Excellent Excellent Excellent = Excellent
Excellent Excellent Good = Excellent
Excellent Good Good = Good
Good Good Good = Good
Good Good Fair = Good
Good Fair Fair = Fair
Fair Fair Fair = Fair
Fair FAir Borderline = Fair

Fair Borderline Borderline = You Don't get a Number your dog fails OFA

I suggest people to do what they feel safe with

OFA PENN HIP will NEVER get rid of Hip dysplasia...To think that it will is pure human arrogance at best

Saddly most Hip problems are not brought to light

if you look at UC DAVIS ....the Brittanys hip problems are Much higher then what OFA shows
why because dogs can be sent in anonimously also more problem DNA and Blood work is sent to them they say the hip problems by what is sent in to them is almost 10% higher the what OFA has reported by the x rays sent to them
I would think the average for brittany hip issues is somewhere inbetween at about 20% plus percent

Also a dog with borderline - Mild most likely will NEVER show any signs of HD even into older sages Mild to moderate may show signs some signs late in life moderate to severe may show up as a young pup to about the 5 year range

Yes I over lapped but it also depends on the dog

Have I done some research Yes I have ...BAsically what I learned If a dog has an OFA number it passes OFA Excellent Good or Fair these are well in the scope of being breedable
As quoted earlier an excellent with a poor history is not as good as a fair with a good history I also learned by watching OTHER breeders how Penn Hip is a good program which can be abused to the point that will make OFa a better program

SO EZzy ...what is the percentile for the brittanys as to what is accpetable for breeding and what isn't..can you answer any questions ? or will you didge me here like you have on some other posts where you ahve been asked a question Point blank since you felt the need to interject in a post the WAY you have..can YOU make this EDUCATIONAL and not CONFRONTATIONAL




To the original Poster et all

HERE IS WHAT I SUGGEST..... CALL OR EMAIL DR KELLER HE IS VERY OPEN ABOUT EDUCATING PEOPLE ABOUT OFA AND WHAT OFA IS TRUELY ABOUT
I have spent a few times on the phone with him personally it was very enlightening

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
2300 E Nifong Boulevard
Columbia, Missouri, 65201-3806

Phone: (573) 442-0418
Fax: (573) 875-5073

Email: ofa@offa.org

[ezzy333]

SO EZzy ...what is the percentile for the brittanys as to what is accpetable for breeding and what isn't

Arlette,

As i have posted earlier in this thread I would only breed a good or excellent. I don't have control over anything else so that is where I have set my limits. I also understand that fair is not dysplastic but it also says the hips aren't as good as they should or could be, so that pretty much eliminates them from breeding if we are trying to improve and solve the problem as I see it. Pretty much black and white I think. We know what fair and borderline is and for purposes of rating where on the scale used by OFA they fall they are right in the middle so for purposes of explaining the rankings of the ratings you can think of them being the average. In other words they aren't the best and they aren't the worse. Hope that explains it better.

I have no particular interest in the percentile, since in my mind if you set your standards as to the ratings you will accept, they have no real meaning in your decision. And I am sure someone looking for a first puppy or first dog will not understand or need to if they just go with the good and excellent ratings. OFA has made it easy for us which is the main reason many people prefer them over penn hip. If we all just make it black and white then hopefully we can in time get rid of the problem instead of letting it drag on and on. At least that is a lofty goal that I think can be accomplished some day if we all can just make the effort.

Your point about the percent of dogs being displastic is higher than OFA shows is well taken. Since only breeders who are concerned about the dogs hips even have them x-rayed it is to be expected that the others who don't care or are trying to get around a bad rating do not x-ray and they will always bring the percentage up. Thats just a fact of life in any area that people are concerned about.

I sure hope this answers your questions,

Ezzy

[highcotton]

So what are the approx. costs to have these test done?

dlfl,

My vet charges $170 total for x-rays, mailing and OFA fees.

Charles

[kninebirddog]

http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html?view=2 sad part is this is only accrued data by entries sent in...there are a bunch that are not sent in due to people not wanting to sully a dogs record or they don't want to pay the extra fee for an x ray that won't pass

Here is the UC davis study which I think is a bot more over since more people who ahve problems are sending their info in

so as I stated before I believe the actual HD factor may float some where between the two studies frm OFA and UC Davis Brittany studies http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/cghg/brittany/
Brittanys are notably healthy dogs, however some genetic disorders are prevalent. The primary defect in the breed is hip dysplasia, affecting 26% of Britanys according to a 1995 survey.


Free of known DNA Defects
Genetic Problems Reported in Survey

Hip Dysplasia 26%
Epilepsy 7%
Cleft Palate 5%
Overshot Jaw 3%
Undershot Jaw 3%
Hypothyroidism 3%
Deafness 2%
Adult Cataracts 2%
Cruciate Tear 2%
Some Additional Defects of Concern:

Diabetes Insipidus (water diabetes)
Several orthopedic conditions
Infertility
Aggression


I took some x rays at varying times o a few of my young dogs

12 weeks approx 4 months 6 months and over 7 months

the 12 week -4 months of ages lets just say ...it wasn't like some tried to explain...a vet in Texas was talking about a surgery that he reccommeded before 16 weeks of age after what I did with my young dogs I have to seriously question the surgery on unformed hips cause they do change a lot ...after the x rays my vet took and x rays we have taken since watching the hips mature and grow it was extremely interesting to see...the pics ar 12 weeks ..Lets just say i was nervous ..I thought i was gona have problems then a couple months later they looked normal

So far on the 3 pups to young dogs i did which we are going to redo when I get back home 1 is very good 1 is good and the last one her hips look good but they are not as tight as the other tow but still deep and well seated and round so i will call that one a goof to fair

I comparing to other OFA'd X rays I have on file...the truth in the pudding will be when they get the certificate back from OFA on the final reading

[Miss Bella]

Thanks to all of you for your opinions.

Kathy