A friend of mine wants to get a Drathaar. He will be doing waterfowl and upland hunting. Mind you his last dog was a lab. I don't know anyone that owns a DD but I've met one person that had one. What concerns me is:
He's only owned labs (his first hunting dog was a lab and his family has always had pure bred PET labs when growing up) . For whatever reason he wants a pointer now but likes the idea of a "versatile" dog
He is starting a family probalby in 3 years. Wants the dog to be friendly to the baby, etc...
He seems to be dead set on a DD vs a Wirehair. For whatever reason his mind is set on a DD. He has studied the breed for about 3 months so far and feels this is the dog for him
He has a really nicely built outdoor kennel where his lab use to stay in during work hours/anytime they were not home. He wants to continue this set up with his future dog. I'm unsure how a DD takes to a kennel. But he did say it will be a house dog and not be a 24/7 kennel dog.
He has visited 1 kennel so far that pretty much gave him the 3rd degree and doesn't seem to want to sell him a pup come next spring. Another kennel he talked to over the phone seemed willing to sell him a DD. Both kennels asked if he was going to test and he said NO. Mind you these kennels he's looking at are nowhere near his house so he'd be traveling a min of 3hrs to visit kennels.
I'm kinda thinking maybe he should rethink his decision. Anyone have any comments I can give him about the DD? I've always liked the breed but i myself am unsure of their tempermant and how different they are to a lab in training, etc...
Friend wants a Drahthaar...
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
I have 4 children under 7 years old. Dog is great with them, very protective & loving.
My children tackle mine, chase her, & rough house. She is very reliable with the, as most are.
She Goes to her place when shes had enough. (Here was my 2 yr old neck cranking her.)
Mine is discriminating with stangers. But Will warm up in time.
Socialization is the key.
Most people work these days, dogs kept outside during the day, but if brought inside with their family/pack at night, they will do fine.
DDs Are NOT Labs though.
You just cannot Drill them to death, as with Labs.
You Must be more creative, some say smarter & more stubborn & thats the training challenge. They are softer for sure. Patience & Positives get results.
I run HRC & Train with Lab guys & I like Labs, but Ill never not own a DD. A good one is amazing, long as the weather isnt too hot.
Unlike Labs: They dont shed much.
They Point. They Track Very Well. Are more prey driven-they will kill cats/coons Fast, no questions asked-can be a problem. Are more independent/stubborn.
My children tackle mine, chase her, & rough house. She is very reliable with the, as most are.
She Goes to her place when shes had enough. (Here was my 2 yr old neck cranking her.)
Mine is discriminating with stangers. But Will warm up in time.
Socialization is the key.
Most people work these days, dogs kept outside during the day, but if brought inside with their family/pack at night, they will do fine.
DDs Are NOT Labs though.
You just cannot Drill them to death, as with Labs.
You Must be more creative, some say smarter & more stubborn & thats the training challenge. They are softer for sure. Patience & Positives get results.
I run HRC & Train with Lab guys & I like Labs, but Ill never not own a DD. A good one is amazing, long as the weather isnt too hot.
Unlike Labs: They dont shed much.
They Point. They Track Very Well. Are more prey driven-they will kill cats/coons Fast, no questions asked-can be a problem. Are more independent/stubborn.
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
You friend sounds like a smart enough person. I would keep looking for a breeder that works with him and will understand his situation. Sounds like a a normal house to me.
he may get push back because of the fact that he is not going to test the dog. If he changes he mind about that, i am sure the breeders will or would be more willing to talk to him.
he may get push back because of the fact that he is not going to test the dog. If he changes he mind about that, i am sure the breeders will or would be more willing to talk to him.
1 gwp, 1 gsp Ashland, WI
http://www.facebook.com/WhiteRiverGuideService
http://wihunting.blogspot.com
http://www.facebook.com/WhiteRiverGuideService
http://wihunting.blogspot.com
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TheShadow
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
yes he said both kennels he talked to wanted him to test the dog and go through the registration, etc... he said he really has no time to be testing a dog but would consider it. He expressed he is going to train the DD on his own but again, his background is a lab so I assume the training will be different (pointer). Maybe he should hook up with some pointer guys for some assistance.
He likes the idea of the DD being protective and being aloof to strangers. His lab use to be tooooo friendly as he put it. Would take food from any hand and gladly would jump in the car of any stranger. He admired that trait but also admires a confident protective dog (so does his wife). But worries that "protective trait" could get out of hand. He hates coons and bobcats in his brand new yard so welcomes that predatory trait but again wants to keep it under control. He has two cats. Loves their "tracking" ability.
He loves their coat and feels it will come in handy for ice water to heavy cover. I agree. Wasn't sure on the grooming aspect for their face?
Wow they are softer than a lab? His lab was as hard headed as a chessie. He always told me his lab would challenge him constantly for the alpha role. Over correction on the collar never left any hard feelings (we're talkin a year 2000 TT collar system not the old school one). He's use to handling a lab in a duck blind but was told DDs do not handle they just "go get em", are not good markers he was told. Said they are a lot more calm and steady in a blind than a lab.
But he feels he will be doing a lot more upland than anything. He's not keen on getting up early, setting up blinds, etc... likes the walking more. Hence why he wants to switch over to pointers.
What does the DD testing involve? Is it extensive and difficult? i'm curious myself.
He likes the idea of the DD being protective and being aloof to strangers. His lab use to be tooooo friendly as he put it. Would take food from any hand and gladly would jump in the car of any stranger. He admired that trait but also admires a confident protective dog (so does his wife). But worries that "protective trait" could get out of hand. He hates coons and bobcats in his brand new yard so welcomes that predatory trait but again wants to keep it under control. He has two cats. Loves their "tracking" ability.
He loves their coat and feels it will come in handy for ice water to heavy cover. I agree. Wasn't sure on the grooming aspect for their face?
Wow they are softer than a lab? His lab was as hard headed as a chessie. He always told me his lab would challenge him constantly for the alpha role. Over correction on the collar never left any hard feelings (we're talkin a year 2000 TT collar system not the old school one). He's use to handling a lab in a duck blind but was told DDs do not handle they just "go get em", are not good markers he was told. Said they are a lot more calm and steady in a blind than a lab.
But he feels he will be doing a lot more upland than anything. He's not keen on getting up early, setting up blinds, etc... likes the walking more. Hence why he wants to switch over to pointers.
What does the DD testing involve? Is it extensive and difficult? i'm curious myself.
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gonehuntin'
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 4868
- Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
- Location: NE WI.
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
For me, they are the prefect dog. Doesn't matter whether I'm hunting grouse, pheasant, duck, or geese, they do it all.
Not all are protective. Mine would run from any intruder.
Not very aloof either. Lani loves everyone. She loves children. I had a little girl running her to death in my store a couple days ago. The dog was so tired she could barely move so came and stood next to me. The little girl came up and started pushing her butt saying, " Make it go mister, make it go!!!!"
They are difficult to train as handling duck dogs. Mine sits, takes hand signals, and runs short water and land blinds, but it's taken my three years. My labs did it in 8 months of training. You have to be very patient with them and they hate rote work.
There's no other breed I'd ever own again.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
My advice for your friend would be DO IT!!! I went from labs to DD's and didn't find the transition difficult. I think the testing is fun and facilitates training as well as being important to the breeders. Preparation for the VJP (puppy test) is mainly exposure. The dog would be tested in tracking, pointing, nose, cooperation and search. The second test (HZP) requires a little more training. If your friend wants a DD instead of a GWP I would guess it's because of the testing system (that is what separates the two). So why not make the commitment and test. They will both be better because of it. A better description of the tests can be found at http://www.vdd-gna.org/testing_program.php
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TheShadow
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
darn guys, now you are making me want a DD!!!! 
i am gonna show him this thread and maybe get him to register here. Those pics are awesome! Lots of good info! thanks guys!
i am gonna show him this thread and maybe get him to register here. Those pics are awesome! Lots of good info! thanks guys!
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
I have owned a number of DD's and I would echo all the above positive comments regarding the breed.
You asked about the testing and the spring VJP test requires very little training. Mostly just exposure and a little work teaching pup to put his nose to the ground. I actually have not handled my own dog in an HZP before but I think I have a pretty good understanding of it. It is a little more work than the VJP and Force Fetch training is a must. Testing is really not that big a deal. I am sure that your buddy can come up with a breeder that will sell a pup to a non testing home if he is simply not interested in testing at all. In looking for a breeder your buddy is not likely to find a "kennel operation" to speak of. Nearly all of the DD breeders only breed once or twice a year and it is simply a hobby.
Lastly I would mention the cats. They are gonners. Some may post to the contrary and I am sure that there are DD's that get along with cats BUT.....if you put 100 different cats in 100 different rooms with 100 different Drahthaars you will be lucky to have 5 cats last 10 minutes. For me it's the only way to go!
You asked about the testing and the spring VJP test requires very little training. Mostly just exposure and a little work teaching pup to put his nose to the ground. I actually have not handled my own dog in an HZP before but I think I have a pretty good understanding of it. It is a little more work than the VJP and Force Fetch training is a must. Testing is really not that big a deal. I am sure that your buddy can come up with a breeder that will sell a pup to a non testing home if he is simply not interested in testing at all. In looking for a breeder your buddy is not likely to find a "kennel operation" to speak of. Nearly all of the DD breeders only breed once or twice a year and it is simply a hobby.
Lastly I would mention the cats. They are gonners. Some may post to the contrary and I am sure that there are DD's that get along with cats BUT.....if you put 100 different cats in 100 different rooms with 100 different Drahthaars you will be lucky to have 5 cats last 10 minutes. For me it's the only way to go!
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
I agree with all of the other DD owners.
If your friend wants a Protective, aloof dog, just dont socialize it with any other people, than immediate family.
No one else touches the dog.
But there is a downside to that too. You may get a very protective dog that no one else can approach, depends on the line.
DDs mark ducks fine in any hunting situation.
Will you see any out handle a Lab in SRS-Super Retriever Series? No
But they will out recover a lab on a Cripple any day of the week.
I have multiple stories to attest to that end, but its not that important.
DDs are game recovery specialists. Period.
Grooming? Minimal.
Tell him to get a Shedding Knife. I do mine about every 3-4 months, takes 15 minutes.
I wont strip after Sept, again until late February, as we have a late season duck here.
Far as training, positives work best, imo. They will shut down long before a Lab. You cant drill ad nausium.
Labs are what they are. They are machines, no breed can do what they do. They take training, repetition & correction very well.
A DD, & most other breeds, will shut down long before-boredom, tedious. In that sense, Theyre soft.
But theyre Hard as heck on game. Before & after the shot.
My buddies male tracked a gut shot deer, jumped the deer, dragged him down by his loins, & proceeded to rip out his throat. 3 hours before he was playing with my kids.
Thats what youre dealing with. Cats/Coons? Goodbye. No bluff either.
VJP test is just natural ability. If he just hunts pup his first year, he can test well. Pointing & Tracking.
A few food tracks, a few successful rabbit tracks/catches, and he will do himself & the breeder a service.
As stated, I love the breed & system. Some dont, thats ok too.
Mine melts in the heat & was slow to mature. Outside of that, great dog.
If your friend wants a Protective, aloof dog, just dont socialize it with any other people, than immediate family.
No one else touches the dog.
But there is a downside to that too. You may get a very protective dog that no one else can approach, depends on the line.
DDs mark ducks fine in any hunting situation.
Will you see any out handle a Lab in SRS-Super Retriever Series? No
But they will out recover a lab on a Cripple any day of the week.
I have multiple stories to attest to that end, but its not that important.
DDs are game recovery specialists. Period.
Grooming? Minimal.
Tell him to get a Shedding Knife. I do mine about every 3-4 months, takes 15 minutes.
I wont strip after Sept, again until late February, as we have a late season duck here.
Far as training, positives work best, imo. They will shut down long before a Lab. You cant drill ad nausium.
Labs are what they are. They are machines, no breed can do what they do. They take training, repetition & correction very well.
A DD, & most other breeds, will shut down long before-boredom, tedious. In that sense, Theyre soft.
But theyre Hard as heck on game. Before & after the shot.
My buddies male tracked a gut shot deer, jumped the deer, dragged him down by his loins, & proceeded to rip out his throat. 3 hours before he was playing with my kids.
Thats what youre dealing with. Cats/Coons? Goodbye. No bluff either.
VJP test is just natural ability. If he just hunts pup his first year, he can test well. Pointing & Tracking.
A few food tracks, a few successful rabbit tracks/catches, and he will do himself & the breeder a service.
As stated, I love the breed & system. Some dont, thats ok too.
Mine melts in the heat & was slow to mature. Outside of that, great dog.
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TheShadow
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
he read all the comments here and he was saying "maybe the cats need to be re-homed" but the wife said NO WAY. Since they are her cats. And she said if the dog kills her cats the dog will be put down. uh oh... but all of your comments just reinforces he wants this breed! And yes the breeders he contacted do about 2 litters a year if that. and if he really wants one for spring 09 he has to put the money down now. he did find a breeder that will have a litter in january but all of them are spoken for except one that has no deposit but a customer wants one. so... he better act quick. his lab passed away (at a young age of 9/cancer/ he was really upset) 5 months ago so he's been itching to get a hunting companion again and get back in the swing of things. he almost gave up on dog ownership and hunting all together!!!!
i know a guy with a GSP that has cats and he claims to never have any issues. just the "chase" and when his dog catches up with the cats she just 'mouths" them and then gets a slap in the face from the cat and runs away!? funny...
On that note I think the DD might not be for me. Not sure, I've always had labs myself and am use to that tempermant. Maybe when i get older I will dabble into the pointer field. If so its going to be a DD or a GSP.
I'm learning a lot myself! keep it coming!
i know a guy with a GSP that has cats and he claims to never have any issues. just the "chase" and when his dog catches up with the cats she just 'mouths" them and then gets a slap in the face from the cat and runs away!? funny...
On that note I think the DD might not be for me. Not sure, I've always had labs myself and am use to that tempermant. Maybe when i get older I will dabble into the pointer field. If so its going to be a DD or a GSP.
I'm learning a lot myself! keep it coming!
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gonehuntin'
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 4868
- Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
- Location: NE WI.
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Perhaps your friend should re-think his wife. Any woman that would put down a Draht for killing a cat has her priorities in the wrong order!!! :roll:
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Divorce is Expensive, Gonehuntin!
I think DDs can be trained to 'accept' family -indoor cats, if raised as a pup. But feral cats outside-no way.
Its too ingrained & genetic. Jeckel & Hyde.
Heres DD videos to give you a taste.
Duck Hunting Mexico, DD swimming down a cripple..
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=f30UknjQD ... re=related
Pointing..
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EqFBFBF2D ... re=related
Stupid dog..
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yoPrrknHn ... re=related
I think DDs can be trained to 'accept' family -indoor cats, if raised as a pup. But feral cats outside-no way.
Its too ingrained & genetic. Jeckel & Hyde.
Heres DD videos to give you a taste.
Duck Hunting Mexico, DD swimming down a cripple..
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=f30UknjQD ... re=related
Pointing..
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EqFBFBF2D ... re=related
Stupid dog..
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yoPrrknHn ... re=related
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Last edited by lovesuglydogs on Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TheShadow
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
reminds me when I was dating a girl who got jealous of my 1911 collection and my time spent at the club and local store. she said, either these horrible things go in the trashgonehuntin' wrote:Perhaps your friend should re-think his wife. Any woman that would put down a Draht for killing a cat has her priorities in the wrong order!!! :roll:
or i'm outta here. the guys at the club were like "dump her" and i actually did as she was anti-gun as i found out and it started to get annoying... but yeah once you are hooked and all legal that's a different story $$$$$$$$$$
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Whats the purpose of the "Pointing" video? Why do they keep picking the dog up and moving it around and then they laugh when it breaks point catches the bird? I'm assuming it was a bird, I couldn't ever see what they were pointing at and zooming in on.lovesuglydogs wrote:
Heres DD videos to give you a taste.
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Purpose was to simply show one pointing. Looked like they were trying to 'staunch' a young dog to me..
I cant account for the training.
Its not my dog.
Dont like it? Heres another
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9676&hl=en
I cant account for the training.
Its not my dog.
Dont like it? Heres another
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9676&hl=en
Last edited by lovesuglydogs on Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Didn't mean to sound like I was criticizing you. Sorry if it came out the wrong way. I understand moving a dog back off a bird/trap, just didn't understand moving it over to the side, then back again. I know its not your dog....just asking a few questions.lovesuglydogs wrote:Purpose was to simply show one pointing. Looked like they were trying to 'staunch' a young dog to me..
I cant account for the training.
Its not my dog.
Dont like it? Heres another
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=d ... f&start=30
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PAHunter
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
I'll give another thumbs up for a Drahthaar. Very intelligent, very tough in the field, very loyal to the one that takes him hunting, quick learner, does everything at a high level. He hunts so hard that my breeder told me that I need to get in better shape or get another dog!! Talk about tough love!
Mine has become a grouse specialist, can't wait for the season to start.
Mine has become a grouse specialist, can't wait for the season to start.
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Understood.Didn't mean to sound like I was criticizing you. Sorry if it came out the wrong way. I understand moving a dog back off a bird/trap, just didn't understand moving it over to the side, then back again. I know its not your dog....just asking a few questions.
I was thinking the same, maybe done for the camera?!
Wasnt exactly standard operating procedure..but young dog looked good regardless
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
lovesuglydogs wrote: but young dog looked good regardless
Agreed............for an ugly dog
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TheShadow
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Well my friend called a breeder out in the mid-west just to get info and got "interviewed". This guy said that for his lifestyle he should stick to a lab or 'british' lab. said that DDs and labs are totally different beasts and that the DD is trained with a different hand. labs are easy to train and take to pressure well and "get it" after repitition but a DD is hard headed, slow to mature and wants to do what it wants to do. Does not take to pressure well and you can ruin the dog easier. Suggested a Britt if he wanted a pointer. this person basically told him to really consider what the breed is and does it truly fit to his lifestyle and future lifestyle. said as long as the DD is raised with his cats he will be fine but reiterated feral cats/neighbor's cats will be prey and be dispatched if he doesn't control that drive. the guy has never had a 'red zone' DD but has heard of wirehairs that go full out attack on their owners, other dogs, other people if not trained/socialized properly.
my friend is starting to doubt! but i guess he needs to know everything. when he was a kid he was attacked by a weimariner (some scars stayed today) so... i don't know, i like the DD myself but know I can't have one now or the near future. I was hoping my friend would get one so I could kinda see what they are like in person. I like the "ugly dog"!
Any other opinions? Like most german breeds they do seem to be more protective but going 'red zone' concerned my friend. he is use to a happy go lucky labs. i think its the wife making him doubt the breed!
my friend is starting to doubt! but i guess he needs to know everything. when he was a kid he was attacked by a weimariner (some scars stayed today) so... i don't know, i like the DD myself but know I can't have one now or the near future. I was hoping my friend would get one so I could kinda see what they are like in person. I like the "ugly dog"!
Any other opinions? Like most german breeds they do seem to be more protective but going 'red zone' concerned my friend. he is use to a happy go lucky labs. i think its the wife making him doubt the breed!
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Greg Jennings
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 5743
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:59 am
- Location: Springboro, OH
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Have been reading with some interest.
First thought:
Having had a lab before getting back into pointing dogs, it is 110% true that the lab can take rote training that will CRUSH a pointing dog. Don't know that it's that the pointing dogs are "soft", per se, but the lab's personality is just very different. They'll take the repetition and they'll take training at a much younger age.
Second thought:
When I got back into pointing dogs, I wanted a family dog first, pointing dog second. People orientation was the foremost consideration. Ended up choosing the Vizsla. In buying the V, I feel like I did more than I would have had to do to adopt a child. Filling out 10 page questionaires, mandatory reading list, etc. I've talked to many other people that have had similar experiences. My conclusion is that it just goes with having a "rare" breed. Want the panache of a rare breed, have to deal with the "drill".
Third thought:
Maybe your friend could look back at what he wants in a dog. Perhaps another breed really would do well. I mean, where did the DD breeder get the idea of a Britt being a good dog for him? You'd expect the guy to know pointing dogs. DDs are great dogs. Lots of other great dogs as well...depending on what someone does with them. Every one of them comes with some compromises.
What are his requirements and priorities? Upland pointing dog? Would a flushing dog do? What kind of terrain is he hunting? Big country or tight cover? How much waterfowl hunting? In what kind of temperatures? Is he opposed to doing the puppy kinds of test (I'm only familiar with NAVHDA) like the Natural Ability (there isn't much training required)? Blood tracking required? High style? Etc.
I think the answers to those kinds of questions will help your friend decide.
Greg J.
First thought:
Having had a lab before getting back into pointing dogs, it is 110% true that the lab can take rote training that will CRUSH a pointing dog. Don't know that it's that the pointing dogs are "soft", per se, but the lab's personality is just very different. They'll take the repetition and they'll take training at a much younger age.
Second thought:
When I got back into pointing dogs, I wanted a family dog first, pointing dog second. People orientation was the foremost consideration. Ended up choosing the Vizsla. In buying the V, I feel like I did more than I would have had to do to adopt a child. Filling out 10 page questionaires, mandatory reading list, etc. I've talked to many other people that have had similar experiences. My conclusion is that it just goes with having a "rare" breed. Want the panache of a rare breed, have to deal with the "drill".
Third thought:
Maybe your friend could look back at what he wants in a dog. Perhaps another breed really would do well. I mean, where did the DD breeder get the idea of a Britt being a good dog for him? You'd expect the guy to know pointing dogs. DDs are great dogs. Lots of other great dogs as well...depending on what someone does with them. Every one of them comes with some compromises.
What are his requirements and priorities? Upland pointing dog? Would a flushing dog do? What kind of terrain is he hunting? Big country or tight cover? How much waterfowl hunting? In what kind of temperatures? Is he opposed to doing the puppy kinds of test (I'm only familiar with NAVHDA) like the Natural Ability (there isn't much training required)? Blood tracking required? High style? Etc.
I think the answers to those kinds of questions will help your friend decide.
Greg J.
FC Snips Spot-On Shooter SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
All good points, and of course, we must generalize here, so forgive the 'broad brush'
Sounds like he spoke to a responsible breeder who is discretionary & is honest.
A DD is Not a Lab. True. More/less
I would train one more like a Golden Retriever, as imo, they are 'softer' they personalize alot of strong treatment, whereas a Lab just keeps going & going.
You cannot drill them to death. They shut down, lose interest & it just gets counterproductive. Been there, done that.
That said, many have been Finished dogs in HRC & can/do run with Labs. But training is not nearly the same.
Never heard of a 'red zone' but far as protecting property...yes.
Weims, DDs, Chessies can all be seriously protective. Most are very pliable & loyal..a few can be dominant, Ive not seen many that way.
Socialization is important. Either do alot of it, or none, depending on what you want.
So many variables, but there are more 'civilized' & easier breeds out there.
If you train with positives & apply force only when needed, they are a delight to train.
Some are slower to mature, but only by a few months..I literally trained mine with liver treats, after learning what did/didnt work. She can fetch beers, stupid pet tricks, etc.
Owning one has made me a better trainer.
Mine is 'laid back' most of the time...other owners will attest to the same. They have a switch. Or Switches. Thats what I like about them so much.
I dont think 'hard headed', but I will say more stubborn than other breeds, including GSPs ive previously owned.
But yes, Ive seen 'British' Import Labs, and they are fine animals also. Dont think he could go wrong.
Mine is more trustworthy with youngsters than any dog Ive ever owned.
Good in public, as seen, except here, as she later went literally Ballistic aka Jeckle & Hyde, at the Pink Panther-the ride in the Background you see-trying to attack it. Thought it a mountain lion perhaps. A day in the life..
Sounds like he spoke to a responsible breeder who is discretionary & is honest.
A DD is Not a Lab. True. More/less
I would train one more like a Golden Retriever, as imo, they are 'softer' they personalize alot of strong treatment, whereas a Lab just keeps going & going.
You cannot drill them to death. They shut down, lose interest & it just gets counterproductive. Been there, done that.
That said, many have been Finished dogs in HRC & can/do run with Labs. But training is not nearly the same.
Never heard of a 'red zone' but far as protecting property...yes.
Weims, DDs, Chessies can all be seriously protective. Most are very pliable & loyal..a few can be dominant, Ive not seen many that way.
Socialization is important. Either do alot of it, or none, depending on what you want.
So many variables, but there are more 'civilized' & easier breeds out there.
If you train with positives & apply force only when needed, they are a delight to train.
Some are slower to mature, but only by a few months..I literally trained mine with liver treats, after learning what did/didnt work. She can fetch beers, stupid pet tricks, etc.
Owning one has made me a better trainer.
Mine is 'laid back' most of the time...other owners will attest to the same. They have a switch. Or Switches. Thats what I like about them so much.
I dont think 'hard headed', but I will say more stubborn than other breeds, including GSPs ive previously owned.
But yes, Ive seen 'British' Import Labs, and they are fine animals also. Dont think he could go wrong.
Mine is more trustworthy with youngsters than any dog Ive ever owned.
Good in public, as seen, except here, as she later went literally Ballistic aka Jeckle & Hyde, at the Pink Panther-the ride in the Background you see-trying to attack it. Thought it a mountain lion perhaps. A day in the life..
Last edited by lovesuglydogs on Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
This may be a case of 'timing is everything'.Well my friend called a breeder out in the mid-west just to get info and got "interviewed". This guy said that for his lifestyle he should stick to a lab or 'british' lab.
In the last few months a handful of DDs have ended up in GWP rescue - since DD's are tattooed they are easily distinguished from GWPs so when a DD shows up the VDD breed warden gets a call. Due to this, the latest issue of the North American VDD newsletter had a very strong letter from that breed warden to the membership regarding interviewing potential puppy owners and advising that DD breeders be very particular of who they sell to and to put some consideration into what they are going to do if an owner decides to not keep a puppy. Anyway, breeders may be a bit cautious now about who they sell a pup to.
I don't know who your friend has spoken to but, I would advise him to stay away from "A" litters for his first dog. In the VDD the breeder must follow the alphabet in naming his litters so, an "A" litter would be a first breeding for a kennel. Find a breeder that has a fair amount of experience raising, training, breeding, and placing DDs. I would definitely look at the kennel 'Gonehuntin' got his dog from and there's a couple of other breeders that would be high on my list for a first time owner. If you want names send me a PM.
If your friend could go to an HZP test this fall yet and observe he could see a number of DDs at one time and it would be an opportunity to decide if he does like the breed. The schedule of tests should be on the GNA-VDD site. No breed is for everyone and he may find out he really doesn't like them but, at least then he's have first hand experience instead of people deciding for him over the phone.
Good luck in the search,
Deb
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
'A' or 'B' litter breedings have nothing really to do with anything.
Any Dog Must be well placed with a Responsible owner, that either:
1. Has dog training experience or
2. Can get training assistance via VDD or NAVHDA.
The VDD has always had a policy. Sell to Licensed hunters Only...
Circumstances change & 'things happen'
In this economy, you will see More rescues, I can assure you.
I only recall 2-3 rescues this entire year. Not a bad record or 'epidemic', yet. One a new breeder, one not.
I dont knock 'experienced breeders', but I dont rule out those with dog experience that now breed DDs out of their love, Passion & committment.
Ultimately the breeder shoulders the responsibility for problems. Usually they are few, and Thats where ethics come into play.
My dog is an 'A' litter dog
Sire & Dam were VGP tested, Sire was Perfect VGP that year. 90lbs of Drive, galore.
Any Dog Must be well placed with a Responsible owner, that either:
1. Has dog training experience or
2. Can get training assistance via VDD or NAVHDA.
The VDD has always had a policy. Sell to Licensed hunters Only...
Circumstances change & 'things happen'
In this economy, you will see More rescues, I can assure you.
I only recall 2-3 rescues this entire year. Not a bad record or 'epidemic', yet. One a new breeder, one not.
I dont knock 'experienced breeders', but I dont rule out those with dog experience that now breed DDs out of their love, Passion & committment.
Ultimately the breeder shoulders the responsibility for problems. Usually they are few, and Thats where ethics come into play.
My dog is an 'A' litter dog
Sire & Dam were VGP tested, Sire was Perfect VGP that year. 90lbs of Drive, galore.
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TheShadow
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
that is an interesting point that DDs are showing up in GWP rescue groups. I know for a fact if it ever came down to that he'd never do that but rather place the dog to someone that will fufill a DDs needs. But his main concern is that when he does have his first baby say... he knows life is going to change and he is not going to go hunting as much for the first year or so (i don't know the reasoning behind this, i don't have kids) and worries about the dog's reaction. the other thing was he has since been told a few times a DD is a "one person dog". Meaning it will bond with only one master and kinda just be aloof to other members of the 'pack'. i was told this also from someone i met that had a DD. Also heard about "the switch" with DDs, that really appeals to me.
Again his first hunting dog was a lab that he trained himself with the help of other experienced handlers. If he gets a DD it will be his second hunting dog and first "pointing" dog.
The cat situation bothers him (for whatever reason). I think that is a good idea for him to attend a HZP, heck I'll go with him. In regards to the Brittney comment I am not sure where that came from. I think a lot of his decision is being based more on pleasing the "ol lady" than himself to be honest!!!!
Again his first hunting dog was a lab that he trained himself with the help of other experienced handlers. If he gets a DD it will be his second hunting dog and first "pointing" dog.
The cat situation bothers him (for whatever reason). I think that is a good idea for him to attend a HZP, heck I'll go with him. In regards to the Brittney comment I am not sure where that came from. I think a lot of his decision is being based more on pleasing the "ol lady" than himself to be honest!!!!
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
In this economy, lots of dogs are showing up in rescues..
Far as I know, there've been 2 DDs in GWP rescue this year.
Thats Out of thousands owned/registered..we arent at an 'epidemic' just yet
A DD bonds closest with the person that trains & Hunts it. But should love & protect all in its pack.
Its important to have family also spend some time with basic obedience too, imo.
Bottom line..DDs are probably the 'Rawest' of the hunting breeds.
They probably have the highest prey drive, of all hunting breeds.
Some can be a handful. But most are an absolute pleasure to live & hunt with.
It runs the gammit, far as lines go & temperments but I think theres alot of consistency overall & theyre sound.
Popularity among hunters is increasing immensely in the last decade.
They need to hunt, need an outlet, need human contact & training to thrive, more than other breeds.
Otherwise dog & Owner alike will be miserable.
Ive had 2 babies since owning the dog, and after proper introduction & initial supervision, dog loves them. (FOOD!)
During the day, this is what mine does. Plays & Guards the kids.
Far as I know, there've been 2 DDs in GWP rescue this year.
Thats Out of thousands owned/registered..we arent at an 'epidemic' just yet
A DD bonds closest with the person that trains & Hunts it. But should love & protect all in its pack.
Its important to have family also spend some time with basic obedience too, imo.
Bottom line..DDs are probably the 'Rawest' of the hunting breeds.
They probably have the highest prey drive, of all hunting breeds.
Some can be a handful. But most are an absolute pleasure to live & hunt with.
It runs the gammit, far as lines go & temperments but I think theres alot of consistency overall & theyre sound.
Popularity among hunters is increasing immensely in the last decade.
They need to hunt, need an outlet, need human contact & training to thrive, more than other breeds.
Otherwise dog & Owner alike will be miserable.
Ive had 2 babies since owning the dog, and after proper introduction & initial supervision, dog loves them. (FOOD!)
During the day, this is what mine does. Plays & Guards the kids.
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
I love Draat's and their tenacity, prey drive is remarkable. That's what makes them special. But. . . that also is why I wouldn't get one if I were going to be having a baby or two down the road. Too much potential for disaster there. Other breeds would be more appropriate.
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Chaingang
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 899
- Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:24 pm
- Location: Hanover, Minnesota
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
lovesuglydogs wrote:I agree with all of the other DD owners.
If your friend wants a Protective, aloof dog, just dont socialize it with any other people, than immediate family.
No one else touches the dog.
But there is a downside to that too. You may get a very protective dog that no one else can approach, depends on the line.
DDs mark ducks fine in any hunting situation.
Will you see any out handle a Lab in SRS-Super Retriever Series? No
But they will out recover a lab on a Cripple any day of the week.
I have multiple stories to attest to that end, but its not that important.
DDs are game recovery specialists. Period.
Grooming? Minimal.
Tell him to get a Shedding Knife. I do mine about every 3-4 months, takes 15 minutes.
I wont strip after Sept, again until late February, as we have a late season duck here.
Far as training, positives work best, imo. They will shut down long before a Lab. You cant drill ad nausium.
Labs are what they are. They are machines, no breed can do what they do. They take training, repetition & correction very well.
A DD, & most other breeds, will shut down long before-boredom, tedious. In that sense, Theyre soft.
But theyre Hard as heck on game. Before & after the shot.
My buddies male tracked a gut shot deer, jumped the deer, dragged him down by his loins, & proceeded to rip out his throat. 3 hours before he was playing with my kids.
Thats what youre dealing with. Cats/Coons? Goodbye. No bluff either.
VJP test is just natural ability. If he just hunts pup his first year, he can test well. Pointing & Tracking.
A few food tracks, a few successful rabbit tracks/catches, and he will do himself & the breeder a service.
As stated, I love the breed & system. Some dont, thats ok too.
Mine melts in the heat & was slow to mature. Outside of that, great dog.
That you Bill? welcome to the forum. Thought I recognized those photos before and that descriptive writing style.
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TheShadow
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
also how far do they range out? i think my bud is gonna get one. he's contacted a few more DD breeders who are happy to sell him one after some questions. some grilled harder than others. he did actually call a GWP breeder who sells them as companion dogs.. weird. but he's curious how far they would range out because a lab doesn't range out THAT far...
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coryf
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
I've read a few of these posts but not all. Haven't been around this forum long but probably know some of you or have met some of you at tests but don't recognize the usernames.
Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I've had dozens of labs, a couple brittanies, shorthairs and a couple dd's (one of which I trained and tested VJP and HZP). In my experience DD's are not softer than labs. I FF'd my dd at a young age and she took it fine. Also in my experience most DD's have a little weaker pointing instinct than other pointing breeds. I have hunted with a couple that were very staunch but I don't think that's the rule. Mine had a weaker point but an unbelievable track and retrieve. She was the first DD I trained but I had quite a bit of experience on other dogs. She trained easily and tested well. I think you'll find a broad variance in range. The one thing I would mention is to make sure you have time to excercise your DD DAILY. You have to establish yourself as pack leader. They can be great dogs in many situations. For his specific situation with the possibility of new family additions I think he'd be better off with a Labrador. DD people please don't beat me up over my opinion.
Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I've had dozens of labs, a couple brittanies, shorthairs and a couple dd's (one of which I trained and tested VJP and HZP). In my experience DD's are not softer than labs. I FF'd my dd at a young age and she took it fine. Also in my experience most DD's have a little weaker pointing instinct than other pointing breeds. I have hunted with a couple that were very staunch but I don't think that's the rule. Mine had a weaker point but an unbelievable track and retrieve. She was the first DD I trained but I had quite a bit of experience on other dogs. She trained easily and tested well. I think you'll find a broad variance in range. The one thing I would mention is to make sure you have time to excercise your DD DAILY. You have to establish yourself as pack leader. They can be great dogs in many situations. For his specific situation with the possibility of new family additions I think he'd be better off with a Labrador. DD people please don't beat me up over my opinion.
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
shadow..
Range is close to medium & will vary depending on terrain.
Hunters out West & in the Central Plains might see 200-350 yards. Grouse hunters back east might only see 40-50.
All depends.
Genetics, cover, cooperation & training. They hunt for you & like you in sight.
I once tried out a hot DD bitch, that ran much like a trial pointer. I didnt see much of her that day, I was too busy shooting points over my own dog. Nor did I purchase this bitch.
Ive been around many dogs. I have great respect for specialists.
There is no breed that will outdo a Lab at a Labs game. Other breeds wont/cant take the training or repetition.
If they shut down, I call that 'Soft'. You may call it something else. So What do you call it if not soft?
'Soft' isnt a criticism.
Some awesome Goldens, Chessies and DDs cant take the training pressure of Labs.
Not taking the pressure, Doesnt mean they arent awesome dogs. Just that they must be trained with more patience, creativity & time.
My bitch was slow to mature, as was her sire. 'Light bulb' didnt come on until about 10 months. It was painstaking during & trying that time, as I was impatient. After that, look out. Some lines mature fast, some not. Most important to me is that they can switch on/off & remember their training..
Range is close to medium & will vary depending on terrain.
Hunters out West & in the Central Plains might see 200-350 yards. Grouse hunters back east might only see 40-50.
All depends.
Genetics, cover, cooperation & training. They hunt for you & like you in sight.
I once tried out a hot DD bitch, that ran much like a trial pointer. I didnt see much of her that day, I was too busy shooting points over my own dog. Nor did I purchase this bitch.
Ive been around many dogs. I have great respect for specialists.
There is no breed that will outdo a Lab at a Labs game. Other breeds wont/cant take the training or repetition.
If they shut down, I call that 'Soft'. You may call it something else. So What do you call it if not soft?
'Soft' isnt a criticism.
Some awesome Goldens, Chessies and DDs cant take the training pressure of Labs.
Not taking the pressure, Doesnt mean they arent awesome dogs. Just that they must be trained with more patience, creativity & time.
My bitch was slow to mature, as was her sire. 'Light bulb' didnt come on until about 10 months. It was painstaking during & trying that time, as I was impatient. After that, look out. Some lines mature fast, some not. Most important to me is that they can switch on/off & remember their training..
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TheShadow
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
good comments so far guys. i'm learning about the DD and my friend appreciates it as well.
My friend contacted a foster GWP household. And the woman told my friend that if he is looking for a hunting dog to not bother with a rescue as most of them are rejects. Saying a few of the ones she has taken in will not hunt, are terrified of loud noises, refuse to retrieve or have their mouth touched, etc... She claims the GWP she has now was abused by a so called pro gun dog trainer. He got the impression the girl really does not like hunters or gun dog training as she said anyone that uses force training on a dog is using old school yank and crank methodology that has no place in today’s world
ooooook. he just wanted to feel what was out there and do something nice maybe by adopting a GWP but... he quickly scrapped that idea.
but he is up on the fence with the DD. wifey is really not liking the breed for whatever reason and he's getting stressed out just trying to take all this in and envision the future (family wise), etc...
My friend contacted a foster GWP household. And the woman told my friend that if he is looking for a hunting dog to not bother with a rescue as most of them are rejects. Saying a few of the ones she has taken in will not hunt, are terrified of loud noises, refuse to retrieve or have their mouth touched, etc... She claims the GWP she has now was abused by a so called pro gun dog trainer. He got the impression the girl really does not like hunters or gun dog training as she said anyone that uses force training on a dog is using old school yank and crank methodology that has no place in today’s world
ooooook. he just wanted to feel what was out there and do something nice maybe by adopting a GWP but... he quickly scrapped that idea. but he is up on the fence with the DD. wifey is really not liking the breed for whatever reason and he's getting stressed out just trying to take all this in and envision the future (family wise), etc...
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
It may take some time, but have your friend look for a breeder who has both cats and young children, the two birds with one stone theory, and have your wife go with to see the home and talk to the woman in that house about the dogs, any dog can be socialized to cats and young children if socialized the proper way and at the proper age, the game farm I belong to has labs and Drath. the also have a cat running around and hie grand. kids, the dogs are GREAT, I was surprised because they are outside all day everyday, he also has hounds, all VERY friendly. Good luck to your friend.
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Shadow - where is your buddy located? Best thing to do IMO is to see them firsthand, see their temperaments, hunting ability, and get his hands on a few to see some variation is coats, size, range, etc. It will answer a ton of questions in a short period.
Couple things I just want to address from previous posts:
- Regarding A litters: every kennel starts out with an A litter - excellent breeders and terrible breeders alike. I would put much, much more stock in who the breeder is, their experience, and the actual breeding than the letter on the litter.
- Maturity: I disagree with DDs being slower maturing that a lab. Most DDs I have seen at VJP age (12-16mo) are pretty much out of puppyhood or coming close. One hunting season really matures a DD in ways you wouldn't believe. My experience with Labs has been about 2yo when they're out of that stage.
- Aloofness: many breeds of dogs will bond with the primary trainer/hunter in the family, but that doesn't mean they are aloof with others. My GSP was far, far more aloof than either of my 2 DDs or my old GWP. Another DD myth IMO (among many).
The DD gets a lot of flack by people worried about temperament. I really get sick of reading this over and over. IMO, these people simply perpetuate the rumor mill for whatever reason they have and the vast majority have never even seen a DD. In the early years, there were a few pretty tough dogs out there, but the VDD has done a great job of breeding those dogs out of the program. In my neighborhood, the top 3 meanest, nastiest dogs are the supposed "friendly" breeds: 1) yellow lab 2) golden retriever and 3) another yellow lab. Meanwhile, many people who walk past our house every day stop to pet and greet our DDs out in the yard. Ironic.
I'll never say the DD is the best dog out there. They are the best dog for me, and that's a personal choice. I hope your friend can wade through all the junk people like to spew about these dogs (as well as other breeds) and form his own opinion one way or the other.
JDD
Couple things I just want to address from previous posts:
- Regarding A litters: every kennel starts out with an A litter - excellent breeders and terrible breeders alike. I would put much, much more stock in who the breeder is, their experience, and the actual breeding than the letter on the litter.
- Maturity: I disagree with DDs being slower maturing that a lab. Most DDs I have seen at VJP age (12-16mo) are pretty much out of puppyhood or coming close. One hunting season really matures a DD in ways you wouldn't believe. My experience with Labs has been about 2yo when they're out of that stage.
- Aloofness: many breeds of dogs will bond with the primary trainer/hunter in the family, but that doesn't mean they are aloof with others. My GSP was far, far more aloof than either of my 2 DDs or my old GWP. Another DD myth IMO (among many).
The DD gets a lot of flack by people worried about temperament. I really get sick of reading this over and over. IMO, these people simply perpetuate the rumor mill for whatever reason they have and the vast majority have never even seen a DD. In the early years, there were a few pretty tough dogs out there, but the VDD has done a great job of breeding those dogs out of the program. In my neighborhood, the top 3 meanest, nastiest dogs are the supposed "friendly" breeds: 1) yellow lab 2) golden retriever and 3) another yellow lab. Meanwhile, many people who walk past our house every day stop to pet and greet our DDs out in the yard. Ironic.
I'll never say the DD is the best dog out there. They are the best dog for me, and that's a personal choice. I hope your friend can wade through all the junk people like to spew about these dogs (as well as other breeds) and form his own opinion one way or the other.
JDD
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coryf
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
I recognize JakeDD. How's it going Brad? I agree with most of your comments and was also tired of hearing about temperment issues. However as a breeder I have some concerns about placing a pup in a home with a planned expansion of the family. I just feel it could, with the wrong dd could create some jealousy issues. I don't have reservations with placing a pup with a family and young children with no plans for additional children. My opinion has definately changed after having had a severe temperment issue come up a couple months ago with a young family and DD pup that I bred myself. Don't get me wrong, I like the breed but honestly do think general temperment issues are a little more likely to come up with a DD than say a Labrador in this specific setting. With that said the dog you saw me at the Armbruster with I would trust locked up in a room full of 3 year olds tugging away at her ears. She would only bowl them over and slobber all over them.
I believe the DD is a complicated dog to breed and get consistent results. I think a majority of breeders would agree with me on that. I've certainly seen a wide range of variance.
I believe the DD is a complicated dog to breed and get consistent results. I think a majority of breeders would agree with me on that. I've certainly seen a wide range of variance.
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Cory & Jake..
Labs now Lead the dog world in Dog bites.
Theyre overbred & often ill tempered. Granted theyre also the most popular & Backyard bred. Denver cops just shot one, made news headlines.
Ive brought in 2 babies since buying my DD with the other 2 children I had.
She has been great. I noticed a few times, an 'overinterest' in the babies crying. I immediately seized on it. Problem solved.
Mine bonds with the kids well, we let her pick up all food scraps that hit the floor.
I think as long as a family makes a real effort to make proper introductions (sniff baby blankets & supervision) it can work well. Common Sense works.
Family must also be certain to also make alot of time for the dog, to not have issues with jealousy.
I know early DDs were a handful. This is not really an issue anymore..Breeders have done a nice job imo
They do bond very closely to family & Crave/need attention.
I agree they are perhaps more complicated and really not for a beginner, or someone that has no time to learn to train from a experienced member or group like VDD or Navhda. Theyre not a setter or Britt for sure. But just as loving & loyal with their family.
Labs now Lead the dog world in Dog bites.
Theyre overbred & often ill tempered. Granted theyre also the most popular & Backyard bred. Denver cops just shot one, made news headlines.
Ive brought in 2 babies since buying my DD with the other 2 children I had.
She has been great. I noticed a few times, an 'overinterest' in the babies crying. I immediately seized on it. Problem solved.
Mine bonds with the kids well, we let her pick up all food scraps that hit the floor.
I think as long as a family makes a real effort to make proper introductions (sniff baby blankets & supervision) it can work well. Common Sense works.
Family must also be certain to also make alot of time for the dog, to not have issues with jealousy.
I know early DDs were a handful. This is not really an issue anymore..Breeders have done a nice job imo
They do bond very closely to family & Crave/need attention.
I agree they are perhaps more complicated and really not for a beginner, or someone that has no time to learn to train from a experienced member or group like VDD or Navhda. Theyre not a setter or Britt for sure. But just as loving & loyal with their family.
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
I'd better clarify that to pass on A or B litters was a specific recommendation for Shadow’s friend who seems to have no experience with, or knowledge of DDs. I completely agree with everything written above (LUD also mentioned this) but, the buyer needs a knowledge base of the breed and breeders to make a good decision on the points you’ve listed – my sense is that this person doesn’t have that yet. He also doesn’t seem to have any DD owners in his area to help with his search. In this case it seems that working with an experienced breeder with a proven track record may be a good idea.- Regarding A litters: every kennel starts out with an A litter - excellent breeders and terrible breeders alike. I would put much, much more stock in who the breeder is, their experience, and the actual breeding than the letter on the litter.
My apologies if anyone felt I was questioning the quality of these litters or the breeders, that wasn't my intention.
Deb
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Deb,
I also think THE breeding is much more important that the 'letter' of The Breeding..or how long one has been breeding
That said, its so important that one works with a respectable, knowledgeable & devoted breeder. I had that.
Id suggest to him to go visit some breeders, training days or schedule a hunt with one.
Visit them in the house, around their dogs & make sure you have a real good comfort level with his dogs & criteria.
DD Breeders are by and large, very reputable.
You can Not make money in the VDD system... with the breeding criteria, tests & restrictions imposed on breeders.
If one is looking to make money breeding dogs, DDs are not the way to go.
Far as breeds go to breed profitably, Many other choices available & why I also am biased
I think they are the greatest hunting dogs in the world. There actually is a "QC" Process in place and theres no money to be made. Ethics & Morals cannot be readily compromised.
I also think THE breeding is much more important that the 'letter' of The Breeding..or how long one has been breeding
That said, its so important that one works with a respectable, knowledgeable & devoted breeder. I had that.
Id suggest to him to go visit some breeders, training days or schedule a hunt with one.
Visit them in the house, around their dogs & make sure you have a real good comfort level with his dogs & criteria.
DD Breeders are by and large, very reputable.
You can Not make money in the VDD system... with the breeding criteria, tests & restrictions imposed on breeders.
If one is looking to make money breeding dogs, DDs are not the way to go.
Far as breeds go to breed profitably, Many other choices available & why I also am biased
I think they are the greatest hunting dogs in the world. There actually is a "QC" Process in place and theres no money to be made. Ethics & Morals cannot be readily compromised.
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Deb - no offense taken, and in a broad sense, I agree with you. The hard thing is that generalizations are just that - generalizations. There are always exceptions to the rule - that's all I was trying to say. It may be better to work with a more established breeder in this case as long as that breeder is openly available to work with their puppy buyers (esp first time owners) and answer questions, etc. Unfortunately, there are a number of puppy owners who haven't talked to their breeder since hte day they picked up their pup.
I am very encouraged to see that Shadow's friend is doing his research and talking to multiple breeders - definitely going about it the right way IMO. I applaud his efforts to learn more and get a feel for the big picture. Many breeders (no matter the breed) have a couple specific things and have very strong opinions, like the one telling him to just get a lab or Brittany (?). Hahaha...glad he roiled with it and talked to more people.
Cory - good to see you on here too. Ivy was a sweetheart, that's for sure. I will respectfully disagree, however, that a DD is more likely to have jealousy issues than other hunting breeds. As Bill said above, it's a matter of proper introduction to babies, kids, other dogs, whether its a DD, GSP, Lab, Chessie, whatever. DDs are complex dogs, no doubt, which is their best asset and their most frustrating feature all at the same time.
Good discussion guys.
I am very encouraged to see that Shadow's friend is doing his research and talking to multiple breeders - definitely going about it the right way IMO. I applaud his efforts to learn more and get a feel for the big picture. Many breeders (no matter the breed) have a couple specific things and have very strong opinions, like the one telling him to just get a lab or Brittany (?). Hahaha...glad he roiled with it and talked to more people.
Cory - good to see you on here too. Ivy was a sweetheart, that's for sure. I will respectfully disagree, however, that a DD is more likely to have jealousy issues than other hunting breeds. As Bill said above, it's a matter of proper introduction to babies, kids, other dogs, whether its a DD, GSP, Lab, Chessie, whatever. DDs are complex dogs, no doubt, which is their best asset and their most frustrating feature all at the same time.
Good discussion guys.
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coryf
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
IF that stat is true it's probably a little unfair given the numbers of labs bred and especially the numbers that just run wild and reproduce from unresponsible owners. Put that number in a percentage and I'd bet Labs don't lead that stat.Labs now Lead the dog world in Dog bites
If you really think this then you haven't been around them much or have only been around recue or abused Labs. I will agree there are many litters bred that should not be.Theyre overbred & often ill tempered
I will say as a breeder who lists his #1 criteria as temperment and has produced a dog that turned on it's owner it's a hard thing to swallow. Makes you feel about 2 inches tall and really think if you should even be breeding. The situation could have been very bad. I have no reason to believe this particular dog was abused in any way and I'm sure hoping it's a rare occurance and that it never happens to me again. I've done some investigating since and found it to be a little more common than I would have thought.
Brad, I've not spent time in the field with alot of DD's....maybe 6 or 7 aside from observing tests. Despite having invited several dd owners to hunt few have taken me up on it besides the Doc. He does have a dog or two I would take in a second. Last winter Katze and Demi were taking turns honoring each other all day. I've decided I'm not getting another DD pup until I get to see both parents in action. I'm a stickler on natural staunchness and I've had a hard time finding what I want. If I do find what I want I will have another. If my year goes well and the birds prove to be as plentiful as last year come out and show me what Jake can do in the upland late season.
Cory
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
A stat is a Stat.
Popularity is a kiss of death in any breed. No quality control, kills a breed.
2008 Fatality: Tulsa Infant Killed by Labrador
Neglect Charges Filed
UPDATE 08/05/08: A police affidavit alleges child neglect by the 17-year-old mother whose 2-month-old son was mauled to death by a family pet. Tulsa Police allege that Linzy Earles has a history of drug abuse and was neglectful when her baby, Zane Earles, was killed by a Labrador puppy at the home of his mother and grandparents on July 28.'
Redding dog bites by breed, 2006, from the Record Searchlight online.
We just had our first Face Replacement on a Child. The culprit was also a Lab.
I did see where most bites involved unneautered Male dogs, about 2 years of age. Chained dogs were a problem as well.
A DD weakness is staunchness. Many dont back or like to.
Mine also insists on getting the retrieves. Its been alot of work. Lots of other breeds dont have this possessiveness.
We hunt alot with Setters & Britts, and they dont mind not retrieving too much.
Popularity is a kiss of death in any breed. No quality control, kills a breed.
2008 Fatality: Tulsa Infant Killed by Labrador
Neglect Charges Filed
UPDATE 08/05/08: A police affidavit alleges child neglect by the 17-year-old mother whose 2-month-old son was mauled to death by a family pet. Tulsa Police allege that Linzy Earles has a history of drug abuse and was neglectful when her baby, Zane Earles, was killed by a Labrador puppy at the home of his mother and grandparents on July 28.'
Redding dog bites by breed, 2006, from the Record Searchlight online.
'Among the few serious data available figure those of 2002 Report of Canadian Hospitals Injury Reporting and Prevention Program. The Labrador, on the top of the list for bites and bite related injuries requiring hospitalization.'Redding, California has identified "the most bite-prone dogs within the city limits," based on animal control statistics: Labrador retrievers.
Haven Human Society president Norm Ryan said his animal regulation officers' statistics show pit bulls are not the most bite-prone dogs within the city limits. That dubious distinction goes to Labrador retrievers. Labs accounted for 22 bites, seven of which were serious, in 2006, according to Haven.
Pit bulls came in second, however, with a tally of 13 bites, four of which were serious. With 12 reported bites, the Jack Russell terrier was No. 3. "What, are we going to ban Jack Russell terriers, too?" Ryan said, laughing at the idea of a ban on pit bulls.
We just had our first Face Replacement on a Child. The culprit was also a Lab.
I did see where most bites involved unneautered Male dogs, about 2 years of age. Chained dogs were a problem as well.
A DD weakness is staunchness. Many dont back or like to.
Mine also insists on getting the retrieves. Its been alot of work. Lots of other breeds dont have this possessiveness.
We hunt alot with Setters & Britts, and they dont mind not retrieving too much.
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coryf
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Wow, maybe I should be afraid to feed my dogs in the morning....5 labs what my chances of making it out alive? Like I said put it in a percentage and I think the truth will come out.
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Youre trying to downplay the seriousness of my point.
Breeding in this nation, (amongst other things), is a mightmare.
There is No quality Control. There are no breeding restrictions.
There are serious temperment & Health issues with Labs & other popular breeds, and yet these dogs continue to be bred-Labs, Goldens, etc. Check out the hip problems with Boykins & Chessies. They lead the sporting group. Same deal
The VDD doesnt have these issues. There IS Quality control. Thats what attracted me to the breed.
You can run your own percentages..its happened to every breed thats become popular. From poodles, to Dobermanns, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, & lately, its Pit Bulls. In the 1970s/80s one never heard of Pit Bulls biting.
Lab bites dont often result in fatalities, like Rotts & Pits, but are serious just the same.
As mentioned we just had our 1st child face replacement surgery. The culprit was a Lab.
The DD is the most Popular hunting breed in Germany & throughout Europe. There are little to no serious temperment issues. I dare you to find me one mauling story.
Heres 2 recent ones about Labs, from Denver no less.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/11 ... etail.html
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_10442664
Breeding in this nation, (amongst other things), is a mightmare.
There is No quality Control. There are no breeding restrictions.
There are serious temperment & Health issues with Labs & other popular breeds, and yet these dogs continue to be bred-Labs, Goldens, etc. Check out the hip problems with Boykins & Chessies. They lead the sporting group. Same deal
The VDD doesnt have these issues. There IS Quality control. Thats what attracted me to the breed.
You can run your own percentages..its happened to every breed thats become popular. From poodles, to Dobermanns, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, & lately, its Pit Bulls. In the 1970s/80s one never heard of Pit Bulls biting.
Lab bites dont often result in fatalities, like Rotts & Pits, but are serious just the same.
As mentioned we just had our 1st child face replacement surgery. The culprit was a Lab.
The DD is the most Popular hunting breed in Germany & throughout Europe. There are little to no serious temperment issues. I dare you to find me one mauling story.
Heres 2 recent ones about Labs, from Denver no less.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/11 ... etail.html
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_10442664
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coryf
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
I think we're getting a little off the subject. I think if you stick to dogs that come from decent, responsible kennels and are raised right those stats don't apply. Most of incidents you are talking about likely come from dogs that run wild and have no care and may have been abused. What we are talking about is buying a pup from a breeder and raising in a household so lets stick to that. I've attendad many retriever tests (where there might be 150 labs) and I've run a few VDD tests. I can't recall ever even seeing a lab growl at an event. I've also spend about 60 days guiding in the field each year with many different breeds and I know what I see so I just simply don't agree that those same stats would follow puppies that are raised in a good environment.
Don't get me wrong I love the DD breed too. I've had 3 just currently don't own one. I would trust 2 of the 3 with families. I will have another someday but after I get to see a few more in action.
I'll agree to disagree with you.
Who are you anyway? Maybe we know each other. Don't hide behind the screen.
BTW, I made it out with ok this morning
Don't get me wrong I love the DD breed too. I've had 3 just currently don't own one. I would trust 2 of the 3 with families. I will have another someday but after I get to see a few more in action.
I'll agree to disagree with you.
Who are you anyway? Maybe we know each other. Don't hide behind the screen.
BTW, I made it out with ok this morning
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Well, Shadow, you got more than your money's worth on this thread. In my mind, the key point here is that there are good dogs and bad dogs in many breeds, and having a responsible, cooperative breeder is a huge part of the picture. If your buddy insists a DD fits his hunting style and really wants one, tell him to keep on searching til he finds the right fit. There are some great people in the club who are putting out nice dogs. If a lab suits him better, then by all means, encourage him to find a good lab breeder. They are 2 very different breeds.
Best of luck,
JDD
Best of luck,
JDD
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lovesuglydogs
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
Cory,
Im Bill. I live in SW Ohio.
I dont hide. If you want my name just ask. If you want to hunt with me, just ask. I also answer all PMs.
An interesting statement is one you made
If youve tested all 3 of yours, as most breeders require, youve probably seen well over 100+ DDs
Which lines did you own?
Youve got to be the only person in America that has made a statement as this, as a Previous DD owner..Enquiring minds want to know.
I also run HRC with my DD & have attended multiple VDD tests & breed Shows.
Ive seen many DDs over the years and hunted with some as well, in addition to my own dog.
I see great stability & soundness in the dogs, overall
I also see that in Labs at HRC tests...in the hands of hunters, the breed is safe & thriving. Very sound dogs, some wired more hot than others, probably bred that way, but beside the point.
Its the other Demographic of other Lab owner/breeders I worry about. The non hunting public.. Yes, GOOD ENVIRONMENT is the Operative word. And thats my point. Oxymoron is what it is..
With a VDD imposing "Sell to Hunters Only" the DD is in great hands. Same with the health & Working Certs required for breeding.
My point is that Popularity is the proverbial 'Kiss of Death.'
Whether you admit it or not, Labs are responsible for more bites than any breed in North America. Theyre also overbred, among the most popular of breeds, same as Rotts, Sheps, Dobes, Pits were years ago. Thats a a real concern.
Hips are a real problem in Boykins & Chessies now. And on it goes.
Whther the buyer goes Lab or DD, matters not to me.
They are indeed different breeds, I think a Lab is more suitable for a Beginner or novice, and/or someone that doesnt have ready access to a training group or mentor.
Im Bill. I live in SW Ohio.
I dont hide. If you want my name just ask. If you want to hunt with me, just ask. I also answer all PMs.
An interesting statement is one you made
After owning 3 DDs, why would you need to see a few more?!"I will have another someday but after I get to see a few more in action." ??
If youve tested all 3 of yours, as most breeders require, youve probably seen well over 100+ DDs
Which lines did you own?
Youve got to be the only person in America that has made a statement as this, as a Previous DD owner..Enquiring minds want to know.
I also run HRC with my DD & have attended multiple VDD tests & breed Shows.
Ive seen many DDs over the years and hunted with some as well, in addition to my own dog.
I see great stability & soundness in the dogs, overall
I also see that in Labs at HRC tests...in the hands of hunters, the breed is safe & thriving. Very sound dogs, some wired more hot than others, probably bred that way, but beside the point.
Its the other Demographic of other Lab owner/breeders I worry about. The non hunting public.. Yes, GOOD ENVIRONMENT is the Operative word. And thats my point. Oxymoron is what it is..
With a VDD imposing "Sell to Hunters Only" the DD is in great hands. Same with the health & Working Certs required for breeding.
My point is that Popularity is the proverbial 'Kiss of Death.'
Whether you admit it or not, Labs are responsible for more bites than any breed in North America. Theyre also overbred, among the most popular of breeds, same as Rotts, Sheps, Dobes, Pits were years ago. Thats a a real concern.
Hips are a real problem in Boykins & Chessies now. And on it goes.
Whther the buyer goes Lab or DD, matters not to me.
They are indeed different breeds, I think a Lab is more suitable for a Beginner or novice, and/or someone that doesnt have ready access to a training group or mentor.
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
I feel that, like it or not, the man who wants this D.D. should take his wifes wants and fears more into consideration. From a new pups point of view it is hardly a good thing to plonk it down into a family where it isn't entirely wanted. The original poster will make his own decision on what breed to get but I.M.O. that decision should be based on what the man needs and on what his wife wants.
If she is in fear of this breed, rightly or wrongly, then I.M.O. the man should think again.
Bill T.
If she is in fear of this breed, rightly or wrongly, then I.M.O. the man should think again.
Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
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TheShadow
Re: Friend wants a Drahthaar...
so much info here guys. my friend has visited the board quite a few times and do not ask me why he hasn't registered yet! but he said its a lot of good info he is taking to heart.
i will be curious as to his decision as well and keep you informed. Thanks to all that have put in the effort!
its been a loooooooooooong time since he dealt with the pup/teen stage so i keep reminding him HOW HARD its gonna be for a few years. Honestly I do not know a single GWP/DD owner around us. Most people never heard of the breed and hunters around here don't use them. Its mainly GSPs and Britts for pointers and Labs for flushers. We are in the New England area and really there is no DD breeder around us. I think he found one in MA/RI area and another one in PA and talked to a few out in the mid-west. But its tough as he really needs to see one or go to an event (I think there is one in NJ coming up) and really check this breed out.
Surprisingly he found some podcasts about the DD and GWP recently and listened to the breeders talk.
But yeah i think the wife has to be included in this decision or else
i will be curious as to his decision as well and keep you informed. Thanks to all that have put in the effort!
its been a loooooooooooong time since he dealt with the pup/teen stage so i keep reminding him HOW HARD its gonna be for a few years. Honestly I do not know a single GWP/DD owner around us. Most people never heard of the breed and hunters around here don't use them. Its mainly GSPs and Britts for pointers and Labs for flushers. We are in the New England area and really there is no DD breeder around us. I think he found one in MA/RI area and another one in PA and talked to a few out in the mid-west. But its tough as he really needs to see one or go to an event (I think there is one in NJ coming up) and really check this breed out.
Surprisingly he found some podcasts about the DD and GWP recently and listened to the breeders talk.
But yeah i think the wife has to be included in this decision or else