Walking in Horse back trial, and a ?

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:07 pm

I am thinking of entering in an open gun dog, AKC field trial in CT Flaherty field, as I understand most or possibly all the entrants will be on horse back. I have no horse nor have I ever ridden one. So tubby , gimpy me is thinking maybe I could do this walking. It is allowed, however how much of a disadvantage am I at. The dog has what it takes and will hunt far forward. They also have amateur gun dog. But that would be my second choice.

Also when is one not allowed to run in Amateur?

I kind of have lost a little fire in my training and running in events, it is back.

Thanks,
Rick

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:34 pm

If you're talking about Central New England Brittany Club's trial in 2 weeks, look me up! Blue durango, little red horse trailer, FAT little chestnut horse. I'll be there Saturday & Sunday (and maybe Monday...might need to call in sick for the New England Amt. Shooting Dog Championship

)

You're considered a pro if you've taken money for training in the last 2 years.

And you would probably be the only one on foot in the open stake...if that's the right trial. There will be a wrangler there who has some pretty nice horses (so I'm told). You might want to ride a few braces and see how it goes.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:14 pm

I think the Hudson Valley GSP trial is this coming weekend in Flaherty. My dog is entered in it also the Brit trial the following weekend and the Championship during the week. Unfortunately, I cannot make any of the trials so my pro will be there.

As far as walking goes, you can do it, I've seen people do it. Depending on how big your dog runs it will take you a while getting to your dog on point. Hopefully, your dog is extremely honest. The other thing is, you may be braced with a big running dog and hinder the other handler's ability to handle the dog and possibly lose it. If you are walking, the pace is set by you, which means the other handler on horseback cannot go far ahead of you. Unless you are considered a pro, I would enter the amateur stakes instead. You would probably be better off walking in those than the open stakes.

The first time I ever rode a horse was at my first trial. See if you can do some riding from now til then...maybe some lessons. Otherwise, do as Karen said and ride a few braces beforehand to get used to a horse. They should have decent horses there for you to use.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:41 pm

Yes it's allowed and happens frequently. However if you can't get around the course walking at a pretty fast pace it's going to be difficult for you to show your dog very well especially if he's a hard going dog. If you can find a horse to get you around you'll be far better off. If there is a walking amateur GD stake and you qualify as an amateur you will be far better off. Good luck and have fun. CR

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:33 pm

I've done it but.........

The horseback handler definately has an advantage.
He can see his dog better.
He can get to his dog , on a back etc. on point faster.
His dog is used to be handled from horseback and the handler is comfortable handling /riding from horseback.

The walker has none of the above advantages. Riding when you're not experienced is dangerous.

The horseback handler is annoyed that he has been braced with the walker as she/he has to maintain a pace that is comfortable for the walker, Initially. he feels this hold him back, ( which it does).

i only enter walking trials now.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:55 pm

remmy wrote:I think the Hudson Valley GSP trial is this coming weekend in Flaherty. My dog is entered in it also the Brit trial the following weekend and the Championship during the week. Unfortunately, I cannot make any of the trials so my pro will be there.

As far as walking goes, you can do it, I've seen people do it. Depending on how big your dog runs it will take you a while getting to your dog on point. Hopefully, your dog is extremely honest. The other thing is, you may be braced with a big running dog and hinder the other handler's ability to handle the dog and possibly lose it. If you are walking, the pace is set by you, which means the other handler on horseback cannot go far ahead of you. Unless you are considered a pro, I would enter the amateur stakes instead. You would probably be better off walking in those than the open stakes.

The first time I ever rode a horse was at my first trial. See if you can do some riding from now til then...maybe some lessons. Otherwise, do as Karen said and ride a few braces beforehand to get used to a horse. They should have decent horses there for you to use.

I have had this happen to me. I ran an All Age dog with a wind shield wiper GWP. The result was a disaster! My dog went out the front, and the handler did not walk very fast.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:21 am

In 3 years running Brittany trials, I've honestly only seen 2 people walk in horseback stakes. I know one said he'd never do it again. I didn't know the other person. I also know of someone who planned to walk but their bracemate had an "anyone can ride" kind of horse and talked her into using it instead of walking (his scout was left begging for a horse, but at least he got to run his dog the way he wanted).

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:25 am

Sharon wrote:I've done it but.........

The horseback handler definately has an advantage.
He can see his dog better.
He can get to his dog , on a back etc. on point faster.
His dog is used to be handled from horseback and the handler is comfortable handling /riding from horseback.

The walker has none of the above advantages. Riding when you're not experienced is dangerous.

The horseback handler is annoyed that he has been braced with the walker as she/he has to maintain a pace that is comfortable for the walker, Initially. he feels this hold him back, ( which it does).

i only enter walking trials now.

I've done it quite a bit, and Sharon sums the experience up pretty good.

Per another post, the judge sets the pace, NOT the walking handler. They are supposed to set a pace to accommodate the foot handler, but in my experience, they will only slow the riding handler down if he is clearly going too fast, and even then, not all the time.

If you want to walk in a horseback stake, be prepared to walk FAST for the entire brace. Don't expect your bracemate or the judge to do you many favors.
If you have never ridden a horse, handling off horseback in a field trial is NOT a good place for your first time. I would walk. I'd also probably lean more towards entering an amateur stake vs open.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:58 am

phermes1 wrote: Per another post, the judge sets the pace, NOT the walking handler. They are supposed to set a pace to accommodate the foot handler, but in my experience, they will only slow the riding handler down if he is clearly going too fast, and even then, not all the time.

That's what I meant. The judge sets the pace but the pace is set to accommodate the foot handler. You explained it a little better than I did.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:28 am

It is better to ride but if your dog is not used to seeing you up on a horse it may be a disadvantage. I know people that have put AFC and FC's on their dogs and they walk. If you have a good / fair judge and a sportsman as a brace mate, they may help you keep a location on your dog.....right Charlie??

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:14 am

If I were braced with a walking handler, I'd first try to get them to ride my other horse. I'd rather do without a scout than have to contend with the trying to handle and hold both my horse and my dog back. If that wasn't to be, I'd probably get off and walk myself although I wouldn't be real happy about it. At least then my dog would know to gear it down and stay with me and I wouldn't be pulling my horse in every others step.

I would go to a couple of trials where they had a wrangler, rent a couple of horses and give the gallery a try. I would also take the opportunity to introduce my dog to horses. Dogs can do some funny things around horses if they have never seen them or have never seen you up on one.

Then you will know what you should do.

RayG

The Zephyr · Post by **The Zephyr** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:29 am

Ruffshooter,

If you did have the inclination to walk, you would be better received in the Amateur stake than in the Open as long as both stakes are offered. Often there are other handlers in Amateur who haven't ridden or don't ride but would like to run their dog. In the Open you may be impeding a pro that is being paid to show their clients dog in the best light. Those same pros may be handling a number of dogs in one day and to dismount and walk a brace because of the other handler most likely won't happen. And although the other handler may have to accommodate you at a walking pace, his/her dog is still being judged against other dogs that have most likely been run with a bracemate with a mounted handler.

CT Valley Vizsla Club has a Walking Field Trial at the Flaherty grounds tentative for the weekend of December 6-7.

At the present time the stakes are open to all breeds. You might want to take a look at that weekend as an option.

John L.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:36 am

The Anthracite Brittany Club is having an all-walking trial on October 25 & 26 at the Freeland Kennel Club grounds in Weatherly, PA that I believe is open to all breeds. Both Central and Southern New England Brittany Clubs are having walking amt. stakes at their trials at Flaherty on the weekends of 9/20 and 10/11, both of which I believe are open to all breeds.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:19 am

I guess I need to step away from the open trials with horses allowed. I probally can't walk fast enough anyway. I don't want to cause anyone issues. My dogs have run in front of horses, but me on the ground. The dogs don't pay much mind to the horses. Got a 4th out of ten braces, in the open this weekend with Mercy my GSP.

THe next big question. To get a horse or not?

Thanks all.
Rick

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:32 am

phermes1 wrote:[Per another post, the judge sets the pace, NOT the walking handler. They are supposed to set a pace to accommodate the foot handler, but in my experience, they will only slow the riding handler down if he is clearly going too fast, and even then, not all the time.

If you want to walk in a horseback stake, be prepared to walk FAST for the entire brace. Don't expect your bracemate or the judge to do you many favors.
If you have never ridden a horse, handling off horseback in a field trial is NOT a good place for your first time. I would walk. I'd also probably lean more towards entering an amateur stake vs open.

Thanks for posting this. Many people don't realize that the pace is set by the judge. I was braced with a walking handler once (open stake) who would litteraly dawdle ten paces, then stop to rest. The judges gave two warnings, then ejected the walking handler for impeding their ability to judge the dogs. If you are going to walk, then I strongly recommend the amateur stakes, especially if this is your first trial.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:48 am

zzweims wrote: Thanks for posting this. Many people don't realize that the pace is set by the judge. I was braced with a walking handler once (open stake) who would litteraly dawdle ten paces, then stop to rest. The judges gave two warnings, then ejected the walking handler for impeding their ability to judge the dogs. If you are going to walk, then I strongly recommend the amateur stakes, especially if this is your first trial.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

I walk most of the time, and I always try to not hold up my bracemate too much if he/she is riding - I can move pretty fast. I've probably had more walking bracemates complain about me maintaining too fast a pace than I have had riding handlers complain about me going too slow. At least to my face.

Anyway, I think there is a decent middle ground to be struck between riding and walking handler. Both need to maintain a decent pace. The walker shouldn't dawdle, and the rider shouldn't gallop. That is what the judges are supposed to control, but more often than not, they don't.

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:07 pm

I agree, you can do it if you are in good shape and keep a brisk pace, I ran a dog years ago that ran the same way regardless of whether I was on horseback or not and I won some open horseback stakes with him, but the other handlers were not very happy when I walked, as some had dogs that were trained to extend there range off horseback and my walking seemed to confused them a little I think. Your big disadvantage is not being able to see your dog well on extended casts like you can off horseback.

sweetsong · Post by **sweetsong** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:35 pm

In a horse back trial can a person on foot jog or run? I'm in pretty good shape and run with my dogs in CRP and other forms of cover all summer long for my own running trianing.

Thanks
Terry

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:40 pm

sweetsong wrote:In a horse back trial can a person on foot jog or run? I'm in pretty good shape and run with my dogs in CRP and other forms of cover all summer long for my own running trianing.

Thanks
Terry

Can't say I've really seen it done. I've had to jog briefly to keep up with some awfully-fast riding bracemates before, but it didn't take long for the judge to tell them to slow down.

I don't like running to reach my dog on point, at least in broke stakes. It kinda sends the message that you don't trust your dog. At least IMO.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:45 pm

sweetsong wrote:In a horse back trial can a person on foot jog or run? I'm in pretty good shape and run with my dogs in CRP and other forms of cover all summer long for my own running trianing.

Thanks
Terry

You certainly can and I have. On a couple of occasions I have stupidly run some very big running dogs in walking trials that unfortunately were real bird finders and found myself jogging basically from point to point. Always gets a big laugh out of the judges. CR

jczv · Post by **jczv** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:22 pm

CR are you sure on this one? I thought the 'flat walk' rule applied to horses and walking handlers. I realize that depending on the judges and the event that rule may be either bent or completely ignored but in general in the events I've participated in or bird planted for I've only seen a few handlers get away with galloping (to get their dog back to the front) and although I've seen a people really hustle to their dog on point nobobdy was outright running. I don't think a judge would allow you to run or jog the course from beginning to end. Walking very quickly on the other hand I've seen (and done) quite a lot.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:41 pm

Flat walk for humans right!? Your making a joke right?

I would like to see the AKC or AF definations that refer to humans when defining or discussing a "flat walK".

jczv · Post by **jczv** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:53 pm

Okeydoke I'll try this differently. Since the question was can I run or jog the course. If you came to the line let loose your dog and started running the path and tried to jog or run the whole course - my assumption is the judges would stop you. If on the other hand you walked very quickly - you would be OK.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:27 pm

I would agree that running is inappropriate for a walking sportsman in a field trial but as was mentioned earlier, if a walking handler was being left in the dust by a horseback handler, I would think it would be ok for the WH to run. If the judges were observant and mindfull of the rules, they would direct the HBH to slow the pace. Most field trial people are a little older than average and I would find that running a whole brace would be an exception to the norm and quite impressive.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:00 pm

Guys -

Here's the deal.

When you start out the horse will be walking at a flat walk, probably about 3-4 mph. The walking handler will have no problem with that. If there is a point and back situation each time there is a find, the brace should continue on at a nice walking pace. However if the walking handler's dog has a find and the other dog does not, all bets are off. The horseback handler, if they are smart, will steer their dog around the other dog and be gone, gone, goodbye. The walking handler will have a choice. They can hold onto their dog and content themselves with picking up what the other dog leaves behind. That can be very nice , especially if there are plenty of birds on course and you have a birddog that knows the difference between body scent and foot scent and can tell whether the bird is still there or was recently flushed. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is more discouraging or embarrasing that to be well out front with your dog running free and wide and birdless and to hear two or three "BANGS" from behind. That sucks.

Alternatively, they can let their dog roll and start jogging/running. The trailing dog will generally keep driving forward until it gets up to the other dog, because dogs are competitive too. That means the walking handler is going to have to really hoof it to catch up. That does not fit in with my personal definition of having fun.

Been there, did that, will never ever do that again.

RayG

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:10 pm

Ray, I would think that regardless if you were walking or riding, if your dog can steer clear of a backing situation it would be a good idea. There are too many opportunities for things to go wrong in a backing situation. Not to say my dogs can't back, they can and do, but I do not try to handel them into one. Your bracemate will just need to complete their bird work and continue on. I guess they could try to catch up but they may want to consider working their dog to some objectives that your dog has not covered. JMHO

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:07 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:Ray, I would think that regardless if you were walking or riding, if your dog can steer clear of a backing situation it would be a good idea. There are too many opportunities for things to go wrong in a backing situation. Not to say my dogs can't back, they can and do, but I do not try to handel them into one. Your bracemate will just need to complete their bird work and continue on. I guess they could try to catch up but they may want to consider working their dog to some objectives that your dog has not covered. JMHO

Guy you are right on that one. The old saying is "you can't win with a back but you can certainly lose because of one".

Yes you were also correct, if you are walking and braced with with "the right horseback handler" you can still do very well. As I remember you won that stake! The funny thing was that you were a lot more surpised than I was, HA! CR

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:15 pm

I was right on two counts?? WOW!! That does not happen around our house very often, which brings me to the deep deep question. As a husband, if you state an opinion and your wife is not around to hear it, are you still wrong??

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:01 pm

jczv wrote:Okeydoke I'll try this differently. Since the question was can I run or jog the course. If you came to the line let loose your dog and started running the path and tried to jog or run the whole course - my assumption is the judges would stop you. If on the other hand you walked very quickly - you would be OK.

There is no rule that says a walking handler has to remain at a walk. If you however are walking so fast or jogging, running, in an attempt to bury your walking bracemate you are going to be told to slow it down. CR

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:02 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:I was right on two counts?? WOW!! That does not happen around our house very often, which brings me to the deep deep question. As a husband, if you state an opinion and your wife is not around to hear it, are you still wrong??

Only if you didn't marry as well as I did! CR

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:19 pm

Charlie, If were both around in 33 years, I will ask you that question again! Even after 32 years I love my wife very much but l needed to compromise with her. As she always says, "be reasonable, do it my way". :roll:

On a different note, will you be at the CNMBC trial in October? I will, trying out my new camper....can't wait!

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:49 pm

I hope we are both around in 32 years. I doubt I'll make it. It looks like I'll probably have to make a trip to the GSPCA nationals in October to scout Abbey in the AA. If he keeps coming along like he was during the spring her Dad might get to run in the GD as well. Bryan said she was doing a heck of a job today but they lost her to the front at about 28 1/2 minutes. So goes the all age HA! CR

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:11 pm

WildRose wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:Ray, I would think that regardless if you were walking or riding, if your dog can steer clear of a backing situation it would be a good idea. There are too many opportunities for things to go wrong in a backing situation. Not to say my dogs can't back, they can and do, but I do not try to handel them into one. Your bracemate will just need to complete their bird work and continue on. I guess they could try to catch up but they may want to consider working their dog to some objectives that your dog has not covered. JMHO
Guy you are right on that one. The old saying is "you can't win with a back but you can certainly lose because of one".

Yes you were also correct, if you are walking and braced with with "the right horseback handler" you can still do very well. As I remember you won that stake! The funny thing was that you were a lot more surpised than I was, HA! CR

...............................................................
Now this is a whole new thought for me.
If there is an opportunity for a back, i always make sure we go for it.
My dog always backs solidly. We worked hard on it. i like to show it off.

I thought it would add to the judge's impression of my dog , especially if dogs were close in judgement.

Are you saying I should avoid a backing situation whenever possible?
Doesn't it look to the judge as if I am avoiding it and doesn't that make him wonder why?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:53 pm

Sharon-

The conventional wisdom is this...you cannot win with a back but you can sure lose with a failed back. I certainly agree that a solid back is impressive, and shows advanced manners, however, there is no firm judicial standard other than a dog must back when presented with the opportunity.

Yes... you are quite correct that if you hack your dog away from a backing situation, it does not look good, at least not to me and if i were judging and saw a handler go to extraordinary lengths to aviod a back... the seed of doubt would definitely be planted.

However that being said there is another, very logical reason to aviod a back if you can, by sliding your dog to the other side of the field and such. If your dog is coming up to a backing situation where the other dog is on point...you are already behind. If you go in for the back, you will very likely stay behind. If however, you can skillfully maneuver the dog around the pointing situation with a minimum of fuss, it shows well for both you and the dog and...voila! you have the front to yourself, at least for a little while. If you have the front, your dog is going to get first whack at all of the birds. Maybe you will have the front long enough for your dog to find a bird and put the OTHER dog in a backing sitation.

How does that scenario sound to you? Me...I kinda like having my dog out front.

In a walking stake, if you get behind, you have to run to catch up or take what the other dog and handler leave behind.

RayG

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:06 pm

The one thing that backing shows for sure is that the other dog beat your dog to the bird. Backing wastes valuable time that could be used by your dog in finding his own birds. You can't win a trial without beating your bracemate and to do that you need to show your dog on birds. Now, if you already have a couple of real quality finds under your belt over your bracemates lack of birds then a classy back will help to add icing to the cake - but I always want to make sure I have a good helping of cake first.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:16 am

Now that is very interesting. Thank you. Never thought of all that. O-kay. we're taking the front whenever possible!! Mercy, you'd think i would know that!

The Zephyr · Post by **The Zephyr** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:42 am

The one thing that backing shows for sure is that the other dog beat your dog to the bird. Backing wastes valuable time that could be used by your dog in finding his own birds. You can't win a trial without beating your bracemate and to do that you need to show your dog on birds. Now, if you already have a couple of real quality finds under your belt over your bracemates lack of birds then a classy back will help to add icing to the cake - but I always want to make sure I have a good helping of cake first.

I was recently at a trial when a judge was giving an explanation of his placements. Both dogs had the same number of finds, both backed; they both had very good races, exchanging the lead as they took the course. The dog that was placed first also had a stop to flush. The judge ended the conversation by saying "I like to see a dog do it all."
In this instance it was the STF, but it could definitely be the back that makes or breaks a placement all other things being even. So at times avoiding a back may keep you out of trouble but it may also keep you out of the win.

John L.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:53 am

Well, I just got back for the Idaho GSP Club's trial on Sunday. It was a riding trial which I walked. Summer, my 11 month old female, took third in both puppy and derby. Not bad for her first trial.

As I said, I walked all three braces that I had dogs entered in. No one was upset. Everyone was glad to see me there. Surprise.

As luck would have it, I was paired with two other handlers who walked and one handler on horse back. The only time the horseback handler left me was when Ron got locked on point. Darn birds would not get up and then they ambushed Ron with crossing patterns which eventually caused him to break and rush a bird. So much for a hope of three placements.

Point is, walk if you want to. You'll have a good time. If it is your first trial, ask questions of everyone expecially the judges as they will tell you what you and your dog(s) are doing right and wrong. Then, post pictures if you have any. I took my camera and then forgot to take any pictures.

Oh, and if any of you are in Utah on Oct. 4th and 5th, bring your dogs and join us at the Wasatch front Brittany club's field trial. The amateur stakes will be walking and open stakes will be riding. Good time will be had by all.

jczv · Post by **jczv** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:21 pm

A few opinons from a trial I was at this weekend.

- If your walking you do have to walk at a brisk pace. There was one walking handler who walked at a very deliberate pace and kind of meandered around which upset the handers she was braced with. Eventually the judges had them separate.
- Use common sense if you end up needing to push your dog push it to the inside edge of the course not the outside.
- If your running your dog off horseback for the first time and the dog is confused and sticking close - do not get off the horse and walk - keep going. If the dog continues to stay close tell the judges you need to push your dog into cover - ride off the path and try your best to push your dog into birds.

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:40 pm

jczv wrote: - If your running your dog off horseback for the first time and the dog is confused and sticking close -.

This is my fear. And 1) when released she will first want to go say hello to everyone and the judges, roll on her back at their feet requesting a belly rub, after jumping up on them for kisses 2) she will want to wrastle with her bracemates, and 3) once done greeting everyone and peeving everyone off, stare at me on the horse and say "what are you doing up there" and sniff around the horse and not go hunt.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:08 pm

Gar-dog -

So WHAT! It is a puppy stake. Puppies are going todo what puppies are going to do. There is not much that you or anyone can do about that except grin and bear it.

Puppies can do no wrong, and anybody who can't handle the fact that a first time handler and first time puppy might just do some things that are"unexpected" probably shouldn't be running in puppy stakes anyway.

Oh well. I'd better shut up or I'll just get in trouble...again.

Go have fun and don't worry about it.

RayG

jczv · Post by **jczv** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:17 pm

gar-dog wrote: This is my fear. And 1) when released she will first want to go say hello to everyone and the judges, roll on her back at their feet requesting a belly rub, after jumping up on them for kisses 2) she will want to wrastle with her bracemates, and 3) once done greeting everyone and peeving everyone off, stare at me on the horse and say "what are you doing up there" and sniff around the horse and not go hunt.

The first time I ever handled in a horseback field trial the other handler in my brace was Jim Busch who is a well-known Vizsla trialer / breeder for 30+ years. It was raining and windy, neither dog had run in a trial before (and both were young derby dogs). I was walking etc. At the breakaway both dogs messed around with each other a little, then there was a sniffing contest, then a peeing contest, they finally started trotting down the path ahead of us and once in a while would make a short cast to either side. Finally about 15 minutes into the brace they both started hunting and with a few minutes left both found a bird and pointed (briefly). When the judges called time I said to Jim something about 'that didn't go to well'. His response was something along the lines of - I thought this went great - we learned they're ok with other dogs, there not afraid of the horses, they started hunting eventually, they found a bird (so they know what to do for next time). He then went to run his next dog and I spent the next 10 minutes with Jim's Scout chasing down my dog who had caught the bird he pointed and was now running around like a lunatic.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:48 pm

jczv wrote:
gar-dog wrote: This is my fear. And 1) when released she will first want to go say hello to everyone and the judges, roll on her back at their feet requesting a belly rub, after jumping up on them for kisses 2) she will want to wrastle with her bracemates, and 3) once done greeting everyone and peeving everyone off, stare at me on the horse and say "what are you doing up there" and sniff around the horse and not go hunt.
The first time I ever handled in a horseback field trial the other handler in my brace was Jim Busch who is a well-known Vizsla trialer / breeder for 30+ years. It was raining and windy, neither dog had run in a trial before (and both were young derby dogs). I was walking etc. At the breakaway both dogs messed around with each other a little, then there was a sniffing contest, then a peeing contest, they finally started trotting down the path ahead of us and once in a while would make a short cast to either side. Finally about 15 minutes into the brace they both started hunting and with a few minutes left both found a bird and pointed (briefly). When the judges called time I said to Jim something about 'that didn't go to well'. His response was something along the lines of - I thought this went great - we learned they're ok with other dogs, there not afraid of the horses, they started hunting eventually, they found a bird (so they know what to do for next time). He then went to run his next dog and I spent the next 10 minutes with Jim's Scout chasing down my dog who had caught the bird he pointed and was now running around like a lunatic.

That sounds about right.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:19 pm

Mr. Busch seemed to focus on the positive. Perhaps that is part of the reason why he could play this demanding, frustrating, humiliating, crazy game for thirty plus years and still be having fun.

I don't know the man but he sounds like he has it together just right.

RayG

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:31 pm

Maybe because he is in it for the dogs, rather than for himself? Maybe he enjoys watching a puppy develop. With my kids, I used to be a lot more uptight about my first born, who is 9 years older than my youngest. I am a lot more relaxed with her and enjoy her discoveries. I think I am nervous because this is my first dog I guess, and Busch has trained hundreds.

huntindog · Post by **huntindog** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:48 pm

Yes you can walk, and be competitve. My wife and I have been walking in HB trials since 2005. When we first got into AKC trials, many told us that we could never win on foot. After looking around and finding that walking stakes are pretty rare in the Britttany world out west.We decided to try anyways. If we had GSPs, we could have plenty of opportunitys in walking trials. (at least around here)

You must be in decent shape and hustle as much as you can. Get used to the idea of your dog being out of your sight a lot. The judge will most likely still have your dog in sight, and some judges are very helpful in telling you where your dog is. I suspect that most of the helpful judges have run dogs on foot themselves. Realize that you probably won't beat your bracemate around the course. Since many seem to think that you must accomplish this in order to win, then try to make your dog stand out in other areas. There are many ways to do this, I try to not collar my dogs after a point, I just verbally release them while pointing in the direction I want them to go. It is risky, and you have to make a judgement call as to when it is too risky.
A dog that is honest on it's backs can also be a big plus. When a HB judge sees a dog back that he knows the foot handler cannot see, it will usually be a plus. This is doubly important as a foot handled dog will be behind it's bracemate a lot! It better back.
Quiet handling, and more importantly good handling will leave a nice impression.

I don't like to borrow /rent a horse to handle a dog off of. Horses all have different quirks, and coupled with a novice rider, and the andrenaline of compitition, it can spell disaster. I also feel that since we train on foot, and that is what we are used to, that we are better off not changing at a trial.
On the other hand, if you can get a horse for your scout, that can be very helpfull.

Finally, there are some judges that just don't think a foot handler has any right in a HB stake. They do not care for the rule and think it is wrong.I have been told this point blank. Don't waste your time and money running under such a judge. Fortunantly such judges are rare. I have only encountered two with such strong feelings.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:48 pm

Martin speaks the truth,,,,,,,,,,,,I've watched em do it. Martin, I understand that you had a frank discussion with the "all age horseback judge" at Greens Peak ....good for you.

jsd245 · Post by **jsd245** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:30 am

Not trying to hijack the thread, but I've never ridden along in a horseback field trial. So this may be a stupid question , but what happens when the dog goes on point? Does the handler get off the horse to flush? I trained my dog to release from whoa with a tap on the head, obviously not possible from the horse.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:32 am

Yes, handler dismounts, either ground ties the horse or hands the horse off to his scout to hold, flushes the bird, fires the gun, collars the dog and then hands the dog back off to his scout, and mounts back up. The scout releases the dog then mounts up.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:12 am

AKC is going to have to redefine its rules. It has already added the clarification on horseback and walking range for gun dogs, while leaving the rule that there is to be no difference.

They can't have it both ways.

If you are a horseback handler braced with a walking handler you are at a real disadvantage, you are highly unlikely to win, you will most likely beat your bracemate, but not the other horseback handled dogs.

AKC needs to consider doing as American Field, having seperate horseback and walking trials, not try to mix the two. I know why they have tried to do so, I understand, really, but it just does not work.

I enjoy watching walking gun dogs, a lot, but I should just pick up my dog when I am braced with one in a stake that allows horseback handling.

This is all a carry back to 40 years ago when Delmar Smith made AKC allow horseback handling, and many were against it, then and now. The sport is big enough for both.

Neil