What to consider before breeding

[pinebrookkennel]

Ok.
Being new here, I would like to see a thread on what to consider before breeding. There is alot of talk about breeding but no talk about the thing to take into account before you breed. How do I know if I should breed my dog ? There are thing that need to be checked first health wise but what are they. pedigree ,drive, nose, bone, bite ??? What I'm thinking is a top ten list of things to think about before breeding. I don't know if it will change a persons mind on breeding, my hope is it may give us all something to think about.

Ten is just a nice round number to start with.

Jered

[kninebirddog]

the natural abilities of the dam and sire
how well they trained
natural desires and drive
hips me personally prefer OFA
conformation to move in the field and hunt
make sure that if one dog is a bit weak in an area that the other dog is stronger
research peds a bit..some lines compliment each other better then others

if your new to breeding seek a breeder that has bred and accomplished stuff with their dogs and or breedings talk to them about what has and hasn't worked for them

there are breeders who have been breeding for 20 plus years and still haven't a clue they just throw two of the same breed dogs in the yard or pen and sell puppies 4 month later

add also have someone else judge your dog via a person or judge that can evaluate your dog besure they do somethings with their dogs so that they know a bit more what to truely look for

[WildRose]

Here's a couple of good one's for you.

1) Do both the sire and dam posess traits you find to be above the average of the breed and along with those outstanding traits are they over all better dogs than the breed average.

2) Do either sire or dam posess traits that are below the average for the breed.

When you get past the physical and hunting traits temperament, personality, and trainability are also very important and most certainly genetic. If in these traits you don't again see the sire and dam both being better than the breed average there's really no reason to breed them.

For most people it's far simpler and far less expensive to buy a quality pup than it is to breed them. CR

[Brittguy]

Another consideration often overlooked. Do you have good facilities to whelp and care for a litter. Are you prepared to keep 3 or 4 puppies when they are about 12 weeks. old? More than once I have seen a person go crazy when the puppies get 10 or 12 weeks old still no buyers and they are being raised in the family room,garage,etc.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

90% of dogs shouldn't be bred. 90% of the combinations that most "TRY" don't work. They produce dogs that are soft, aren't birddogs, aren't biddable, don't fit the breed standard, etc. They have no clue of the lineage of their dog and far far less of the lineage of the sire. Pedigree is certainly important, no name no title no pedigree dogs don't produce the next national champion or the even a great hunting dog many times. A hodge podge of lines, random matings, even a great sire and great dam mixed doesn't by any means produce the next great animal. The apple truly doesn't fall far from the tree. Therefore, knowing the lineage, knowing what has been produced, the positive traits, and even more important, the negative traits must be known. Dogs that will quit, dogs with lesser noses, poor conformation, the desire to do it all for themselves, lack of style, aggressiveness, dogs without the ability to go hard for an hour or hunt at a reasonable pace for 3 or 4 hours, dogs who run with their noses on the ground, too hard, too soft, are all traits that do get passed on.

Personally, I look for the dog or female that is as close to perfect as I can find. Few weaknesses and no glaring screaming weaknesses. Lines that have produced, lines that have crossed well with each other. In trialing, seems the most important trait of a breeding quality dog is...can the dog run out of the country? If the dog runs and doesn't hunt, flat isn't a birddog, doesn't want to do it for his owner/handler, isn't put together right, is extremely soft, will quit you, lets down, tends to want to flag, was hard to break, had poor style, who cares if that dog runs out of the country. Takes too long to breed poor qualities out.

Simple answer, the dog that has a lineage of fine animals, were relatively easy to break, handled well early and didn't get so confident he flipped you off, consistently ranged and hunted independently enough to take you to birds, but wasn't a run off by any means, nice gait, fast, stylish, easy moving, lots of style, tough, wouldn't quit you in training and wouldn't quit you hunting, would go hard with a barbed wire rip in his belly, went until he flat couldn't walk, didn't forget his training, but still was a great family pet.

Finally, a breeder must be ruthless when it comes to culling. NOT talking about bucketing, but about selling pups that aren't better than mom and dad, that aren't closer to the ideal, be willing to put pups in homes ONLY that will do right by the dogs, preferably homes that have the breed's best interests at heart. The more I compete and hunt and breed, the more I realize how little I know. IMHO, no one should ever breed until he has a large sample to form his opinions. Having an old dog that his two buddies think is great, just isn't enough reason to try to reproduce old Rex. After 35 years of shorthairs, and 10 years of competing, I now realize that I know less and less each day.

[kninebirddog]

brittguy also brings up good points


What are plans for pups that do not sell? drop the price? dump them at rescue? try to give away? train up and sell as started pp dogs or keep them

also how are you going to advertise the pups to be sold...what have you done to make your dogs look more appealing to buy

and what if you sold a pup to someone with plans of breeding and that pup shows up with HD what are you going to do

[pinebrookkennel]

Thank you for the great responce so far.

As we all see so far there are alot of thing to consider before you breed your dog. Even If three of your buddies want a pup from the best dog they have ever hunted with.

Jered

[jessie]

Simple answer, the dog that has a lineage of fine animals, were relatively easy to break, handled well early and didn't get so confident he flipped you off, consistently ranged and hunted independently enough to take you to birds, but wasn't a run off by any means, nice gait, fast, stylish, easy moving, lots of style, tough, wouldn't quit you in training and wouldn't quit you hunting, would go hard with a barbed wire rip in his belly, went until he flat couldn't walk, didn't forget his training, but still was a great family pet.

This is the standard that one should look for. Its just too bad that the large majority of dogs don't fit this 100%. Most dogs are about 85%. Facilities are a big deal as someone mentioned before and the contingency plan on pups that don't sell is a huge one also.

I think that if you go into a breeding with the idea of supplementing your own string and not getting rich off a litter of pups then I don't think you will be disappointed.

I also like to look at the female side of the equation when I pick out a pup. The female contributes alot to the equation that most people don't think of.

I have a nice female out of Miller's White Powder that I am considering breeding to my buddy's shooting dog champion. My female is a nice nice first rate birddog. She is a little low pointed in the front and she has about an 11 o'clock tail. The dog that I am considering breeding her to is really high in the front and has a lot of tail not to mention he will wear the front end out and is a first rate birddog that handles. With my particular female I looked around to find a stud dog that would compliment her and help to fill in her two negatives.

If you have a dog that has a lot of tail and maybe pulls her tail a little on point then you wouldn't probably want to pair her with a stud dog that has a lot of tail. You'll end up with tails that pull over the top and it isn't desirable.

Find a dog to breed to and then compare them. What does he do? What does she do? How does he look pointed? How does she looked pointed? What kind of dog are you after? I'm after first class walking shooting dogs. It doesn't make much sense to breed to the biggest running all age dog in the country. Chances are you may only get one all age type dog but you will generally get bigger running stuff. Conversely, if you are looking for a huge running all dog then I wouldn't probably breed to a walking gundog. You have to know what you are looking to get out of it.

[Trey6]

The first thing I ask when someone askes me if they should breed their female (assuming all heath clearences and some kind of proof of hunting ability is met) is: 'Are you prepared to loose your bitch'. It does happen, not often, but it is a big thing to think about. And, do you have about 2 grand in spare change sitting in the bank to pay the emergency vet clinic to do a c section to save your bitch and/or the puppies? If you loose the bitch are you prepared, able to bottle feed a litter of pups?
If your three friend want pups out of the best bird dog they have ever hunted with, get the money from them up front, non refundable, I have heard that story from folks more times then I want to count.

[ezzy333]

The first thing I ask when someone askes me if they should breed their female (assuming all heath clearences and some kind of proof of hunting ability is met) is: 'Are you prepared to loose your bitch'. It does happen, not often, but it is a big thing to think about. And, do you have about 2 grand in spare change sitting in the bank to pay the emergency vet clinic to do a c section to save your bitch and/or the puppies? If you loose the bitch are you prepared, able to bottle feed a litter of pups?
If your three friend want pups out of the best bird dog they have ever hunted with, get the money from them up front, non refundable, I have heard that story from folks more times then I want to count.

I just can't make myself think of every negative thing I could think of when I am wanting to breed. Those things could happen but it's rare. I guess it should cross your mind but I would advise looking for the positive things you are trying to produce and if they are significant and worthwhile I would do it.

Ezzy

[DGFavor]

selling pups that aren't better than mom and dad, that aren't closer to the ideal

How do you figure that one out in 8 weeks?? Takes me years to figure out if progeny are better than the P's!! By the time I decide a dog is worth breeding, they're too old!!

I get a ton of folks interested in breeding to a couple of my young dogs that look good in pictures, but when I tell 'em "no, not yet" and recommend the old, proven "above and beyond" one they get the impression I've just walked 'em across a car lot full of shiny new cars to try and sell 'em an old rust bucket in the back!! Cracks me up and doesn't break my heart when they go elsewhere!

[Ryan Baumann]

90% of dogs shouldn't be bred. 90% of the combinations that most "TRY" don't work. They produce dogs that are soft, aren't birddogs, aren't biddable, don't fit the breed standard, etc. They have no clue of the lineage of their dog and far far less of the lineage of the sire. Pedigree is certainly important, no name no title no pedigree dogs don't produce the next national champion or the even a great hunting dog many times. A hodge podge of lines, random matings, even a great sire and great dam mixed doesn't by any means produce the next great animal. The apple truly doesn't fall far from the tree. Therefore, knowing the lineage, knowing what has been produced, the positive traits, and even more important, the negative traits must be known. Dogs that will quit, dogs with lesser noses, poor conformation, the desire to do it all for themselves, lack of style, aggressiveness, dogs without the ability to go hard for an hour or hunt at a reasonable pace for 3 or 4 hours, dogs who run with their noses on the ground, too hard, too soft, are all traits that do get passed on.

Personally, I look for the dog or female that is as close to perfect as I can find. Few weaknesses and no glaring screaming weaknesses. Lines that have produced, lines that have crossed well with each other. In trialing, seems the most important trait of a breeding quality dog is...can the dog run out of the country? If the dog runs and doesn't hunt, flat isn't a birddog, doesn't want to do it for his owner/handler, isn't put together right, is extremely soft, will quit you, lets down, tends to want to flag, was hard to break, had poor style, who cares if that dog runs out of the country. Takes too long to breed poor qualities out.

Simple answer, the dog that has a lineage of fine animals, were relatively easy to break, handled well early and didn't get so confident he flipped you off, consistently ranged and hunted independently enough to take you to birds, but wasn't a run off by any means, nice gait, fast, stylish, easy moving, lots of style, tough, wouldn't quit you in training and wouldn't quit you hunting, would go hard with a barbed wire rip in his belly, went until he flat couldn't walk, didn't forget his training, but still was a great family pet.

Finally, a breeder must be ruthless when it comes to culling. NOT talking about bucketing, but about selling pups that aren't better than mom and dad, that aren't closer to the ideal, be willing to put pups in homes ONLY that will do right by the dogs, preferably homes that have the breed's best interests at heart. The more I compete and hunt and breed, the more I realize how little I know. IMHO, no one should ever breed until he has a large sample to form his opinions. Having an old dog that his two buddies think is great, just isn't enough reason to try to reproduce old Rex. After 35 years of shorthairs, and 10 years of competing, I now realize that I know less and less each day.

I tell you! I can not believe all the garbage you preach and knowone knows you! I wouldn't listen to you for a second. Its just unbelievable the crap you write. 90% you have got to be crazy!

Ryan.

I'm still shaking my head at your reply's.

[wems2371]

Be careful RB. We just had a personal assault type thread elsewhere, and it finally got locked down. I hope most of us just take the advice given here for what it is--a fairly anonymous opinion. It's just like life: good info, bad info, practice what you preach, and not practicing what you preach. I understand if you're upset because you know the poster on a personal level, but don't take it there. Last guy that did that on a thread came out with the black-eye IMO. Delete it before you get one too. Denise

[Ryan Baumann]

Be careful RB. We just had a personal assault type thread elsewhere, and it finally got locked down. I hope most of us just take the advice given here for what it is--a fairly anonymous opinion. It's just like life: good info, bad info, practice what you preach, and not practicing what you preach. I understand if you're upset because you know the poster on a personal level, but don't take it there. Last guy that did that on a thread came out with the black-eye IMO. Delete it before you get one too. Denise

I truely apreciate that Denise. But i have to say the moderators should look at the posts each of us have made. i believe i have delivered the goods from my exsperiences. if they decide its best i go they will ban me. Then he can continue to spread his word. I don't want to go but i have got to say that in order to keep the new upland hunter from believing in that rediculas mentality.

Again thank you.

Ryan.

[Windyhills]

The first thing I ask when someone askes me if they should breed their female (assuming all heath clearences and some kind of proof of hunting ability is met) is: 'Are you prepared to loose your bitch'. It does happen, not often, but it is a big thing to think about. And, do you have about 2 grand in spare change sitting in the bank to pay the emergency vet clinic to do a c section to save your bitch and/or the puppies? If you loose the bitch are you prepared, able to bottle feed a litter of pups?
If your three friend want pups out of the best bird dog they have ever hunted with, get the money from them up front, non refundable, I have heard that story from folks more times then I want to count.

Ditto that. Don't have to lose the bitch to have to bottle feed the whole litter. Problems are more common than some think, they aren't always cheap to resolve, and they might require a lot of time from someone to deal with--meaning forget about working full time until the issues are dealt with.

[pinebrookkennel]

Ryan.
First of all I don't think many new upland hunters are going to get in the debate. I'm certanly not new to upland hunting. That being said I did not start this thread to start another war of words. The last thread that wems was thalking about brought me to this. that thread was well intended but went down the wrong road fast. I like the advice of a person who has been around the dog world as long as some on this site wether it's right or wrong. Thats for all of us to figure out.

jered

[Ryan Baumann]

Got ya! Sorry for offwending you. its about the lueker though. Wink.


Ryan.

[CherrystoneWeims]

I'm in agreement with TruBlue. Breeders need to be ruthless in what they keep and what they are using for breeding. As stated don't just throw two dogs together. Take a close look at the pedigree of the dam. If she is tightly bred then you will have more options of stud dogs. Many times tightly bred bitches will produce more closely to what they themselves are. If she is an outcross then you should most likely look at her pedigree to find a related dog who complements what she is lacking. You will also want to look for a stud who has what your bitch is lacking if she is tightly bred. For my bitch, Pearl, I look for a dog who produces more bone and size. She is a smaller bitch who produces small so I need to watch for a sire who gives size to his puppies. I also look for a dog who is a natural backer since Pearl's weakness is backing.

One other thing that everyone failed to mention is that you MUST know the pedigree and what potential health issues could be present. In Weimaraners we must look out for HOD, Shakey puppy syndrome, immune issues, distichiasis, etc. I won't go to certain stud dogs because I know what they or their sires/dams have produced and I want to keep my line as free as possible of health issues.

[Ryan Baumann]

Yes you guys are. Knock heads! Cull them out for color and what ever else is needed. Pedigree. Well??? I say whatch the sire and the dam and determin for your self. Not on a preserve but on wild birds for 6 to 8 hours. see what they have to offer when the going gets tough. Do they quit???? Or do they dig deep and stretch out bigger in persuit of birds. That should tell you alot about them. Do they stand those birds once they find them???? If yes and they have know family health issues?? LETS ROLL THEM DICE FRIENDS AND SEE WHAT WE GET?? Thats breeding in a nut shell. THEN WHEN THERE BORN CULL THE ONES YOUR GUESSING AREN'T GOING TO CUT THE MUSTARD AT 8 WEEKS OLD????????????? ludicrous!!!!! You won't know until there after 4-6 months minimun for sure!

Ryan.


Edited by moderator for objectionable language

[pinebrookkennel]

From the posts so far here is what I've come away with.

1. First and foremost is the health issues, ofa and hd along with all the other I don't see listed.

2. natural ability ,nose

3. the temperment of the dog or dogs dam and sire. Big one for me I have little kids.

4. Dogs desire to please, along that line trainability.

5. Range, weather it be on horseback or foot hunting.

6. Pedigree

7. Facilitys to welp and raise a litter if nessasary

8. Well layed out plan to sell or get rid of pups if need be.

9. contingency plan if thing go bad. welping or a pup with bad HD or temperment.

10.Listed this one last but its a big one. Find good homes for the little smile makers.

11. Find a pro and get there opinion on your dog (good or bad) you may not like what you hear but it may save you some heartack in the long run.

This may not be in everones perfect order but it's what the way I would run it through my head. Before I was going to run out and bread my dog .

Jered

[wems2371]

While perfection can never be attained, the goal has to be to get as close as you can in as many breeding categories as you can--i.e. genetic health, birdiness, breed standard, etc. While a pedigreed dog without titles/achievements in it's background does not equal a lack of quality...........it might be a little harder for a 3rd party to determine what you have. A pedigreed dog with some "proven/titled/etc" lineage provides some insight as to what a line is capable of doing. A puppy is the sum total of its lineage--NOT just it's immediate sire and dam. For all you know, you may be breeding one good female out of a litter where the other 8 turned out to be utter disappointments. I don't like rolling dice, as the odds usually aren't in a persons favor, otherwise I'd have won in Vegas 2 weeks ago. To me, proper preparation at anything equals greater success. Denise

[Yawallac]

Ryan,

I'm really surprised at your reaction. I've seen your dog's pedigrees. Your dogs are the great dogs they are because of breeders that believed and practiced exactly as TrueBlu suggested. The reason that Pointers are the best upland bird dogs on the planet is because of men like Wehle and Miller who cared deeply for the breed but were willing to make the tough decisions. I could never be as brutal as them but I surely thank them for being true to the breed.

[wems2371]

I like #10 the best. If you follow through with 1-9 to the best of your ability, #10 will be a lot easier. Denise

[pinebrookkennel]

Have you ever seen a little pup that didn't make you smile?

Jered

[highcotton]

Every time this topic comes up we hear the same thing. Most responses come from breeders who are very passionate about their dogs and breeding programs. These very serious breeders seem to always dwell on all the negative aspects of breeding, and do it in such a way as to discourage breeding by others. It's fine to educated people in the responsibilities of breeding and caution them of possible problems but I think the passion of these serious breeders sometimes gets into over-kill on the negatives. By the time these threads get done a newbie is expecting a litter of three legged, one eyed man eaters. I don't think it's done with bad intentions. I think we just sometimes forget that not everyone is trying to breed a dog for Ames. And, not everyone agrees on what "standard" is, or should be.

A responsible breeder does not have to breed for a national champion caliber dog. So long as genetic health issues and temperament are covered and the breeder is responsible about placing the puppies then everyone has a right to breed for what they want in their dogs.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying this is the way I run my breeding program. I am strict in my program to the point that fellow Llewellin breeders call me the "culler". What I am saying is it bothers me to see the same negative slam put on every breeding thread that comes up. I don't think that's the way new potential breeders should be treated here. I think new breeders should be encouraged as they are educated.

Charles

[ezzy333]

Right on Charles. It always bothers me too. Responsible breeding covers a much broader area than many people want to admit. Breeding dogs, horses, cows, or pigs is not an exclusive club of superior thinkers. Some seem to do it better than others but that is true where ever you look. New breeders need to be willing to ask questions and take advise and be willing to work hard at caring for the animals that are produced.

Ezzy

[tommyboy72]

What I do not understand is why if someone who has 35 years of experience openly admits that he does not know what to look for before breeding do some of you breeders, trialers and professionals discourage us less experienced hunters from breeding our own dogs? Sounds to me like some of you guys might be afraid of losing a sale. If no one really knows what to look for and what to discourage against then what does it matter if you are new or experienced. I mean how much worse can newcomers screw it up than someone who has been at it for a while. I once bred a Tecoa Mountain Sunrise Setter female to an Elhew Pointer I had and asked opinions on here. I did not mean to upset anyone but it did upset several of the so called experienced breeders on here. I was not planning on selling the pups I just wanted one for myself. I ended up giving away all the pups and spaying my female and buying a Millers Silver Bullet female pointer from a professional field trialer, trainer friend of mine. She is only 8 months old right now and is coming along fine and some day when she is 2 or 3 years old I plan to breed her to my male Elhew Pointer out of Elhew Jefferson. Both of these dogs are excellent pets and field dogs. The female is young and on her way to becoming a fine dog and the male is excellent and makes me proud every time I hunt him. Maybe someone should open some type of school to teach breeding practices, pup picking, dog training, field trialing, etc. A lot of people get on here to gain knowledge from some of the more experienced members of the forum and I think rather than discouraging people from doing their own breeding and training it would be more beneficial and would lead to more responsible hunting dog owners if more people were willing to help than to discourage and to reprimand those new at the game and just wanting to get involved.

[Yawallac]

I once bred a Tecoa Mountain Sunrise Setter female to an Elhew Pointer I had and asked opinions on here.

I missed that post. I bet it was a good one.

The Miller x Elhew cross can produce some nice pups. Best of luck.

[Sharon]

What to consider?

If you have all or almost all pups sold before they're on the ground, then that's a breeding to go for.
If no one's knocking on your door........

What we don't need is more pups no one wants or pups who want to hunt going to pet homes.

[pinebrookkennel]

IMO. on this site we are talking to some of the top breeders and handlers in the country. Alot of people that breed there dog are not looking to make a national field champion. yes a breed standard should be followed but to the level put forth here. I do not see a problem selling a hunting dog to a pet household. there may be some issues that will arise but with pets there always are. It sure would be nice to sell every dog to a hunting or trialing household but if that were the case the wouldn't be any birds left in the country.

Jered

[jessie]

IMO. on this site we are talking to some of the top breeders and handlers in the country. Alot of people that breed there dog are not looking to make a national field champion. yes a breed standard should be followed but to the level put forth here. I do not see a problem selling a hunting dog to a pet household. there may be some issues that will arise but with pets there always are. It sure would be nice to sell every dog to a hunting or trialing household but if that were the case the wouldn't be any birds left in the country.

Jered

Jared I disagree with this. The top trialers handlers and breeders dont have time to be on this board. If you want to talk to the big boys go to fieldtrialpointers.net. You'll be in big boy land over there. The brittany people have their own page too. Its mainly amateur hour on this site. Thats why many people here have never heard of each other. There are some accomplished people here. They make up about 2% of the people here.

I like your list. One thing to remember too is to breed in a manner that fits the direction of your kennel. Don't go out with the idea that you're going to breed all age dogs and sell them to the big time guys. They're not going to buy from you. They have their own stuff and its better. This is just an example of course. Breed to fit your own needs and you'll be happier then if you were trying to cater to the general public.

JMO

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Ryan, if it makes you feel better, I don't have clue one who you are either. Nice informative post however. Ryan, you claim my posts are "garbage" and "crap". Please, help me, be more specific, please point out the falsehoods in my opinion! I don't believe "know one" knows me, but please work on your grammar, your idiotic attacks would be easier to read.

Tommyboy, I assume you mean me when you say someone with 35 years experience. I assure you I did not say I don't know what to look for. Please work on your comprehension. What I said, was I am smart enough to understand that I don't know many things. I know what to look for. However, NO ONE knows exactly what he will get when he breeds. He hopefully has an educated guess and has experience in knowing what the lines for several generations will produce. However, NO ONE KNOWS what he will get. Far too many factors, too many variables, each dog is different. A repeat breeding of the same dog and female, most often produces a litter that is different from the first.

Jessie, do you really believe that the big time pros, any of them, are spending a bunch of time giving free advice to people on the internet, on any site? Any well respected pro, spends his days training dogs, washing kennels, doing yardwork, working on his place, he ain't spending time online. These sites are made up of people with opinions, some good, some terrible. Everyone has a right to his opinion. Everyone has the right to ignore any else. Jessie, you seem to spend a good bit of time on a site that is full of misfits. Strange!! On line advice may very well be worth what is paid for it...nothing.

I thought the concept of free speech was covered in a thread in the last few days. Ryan, your right to not care about anything I write is duly noted. My not caring about your gibberish is also noted hot shot.

[kninebirddog]

From the posts so far here is what I've come away with.

1. First and foremost is the health issues, ofa and hd along with all the other I don't see listed.

2. natural ability ,nose

3. the temperment of the dog or dogs dam and sire. Big one for me I have little kids.

4. Dogs desire to please, along that line trainability.

5. Range, weather it be on horseback or foot hunting.

6. Pedigree

7. Facilitys to welp and raise a litter if nessasary

8. Well layed out plan to sell or get rid of pups if need be.

9. contingency plan if thing go bad. welping or a pup with bad HD or temperment.

10.Listed this one last but its a big one. Find good homes for the little smile makers.

11. Find a pro and get there opinion on your dog (good or bad) you may not like what you hear but it may save you some heartack in the long run.

This may not be in everones perfect order but it's what the way I would run it through my head. Before I was going to run out and bread my dog .

Jered

this would be some good basic stuff which would help many first timers or beginners out...nothing is truely perfect ...yes some will be much stricter with their programs then others but when you pup the pups future in perspective this would give them the best chances if we do this.....still can't garautee the pups 100 percent will be free of anything...No one can...cause no matter what we do mother nature will be there to remind us we are only human

[wems2371]

The top trialers handlers and breeders dont have time to be on this board. If you want to talk to the big boys go to fieldtrialpointers.net. You'll be in big boy land over there. The brittany people have their own page too. Its mainly amateur hour on this site. Thats why many people here have never heard of each other. There are some accomplished people here. They make up about 2% of the people here.

I like your list. One thing to remember too is to breed in a manner that fits the direction of your kennel. Don't go out with the idea that you're going to breed all age dogs and sell them to the big time guys. They're not going to buy from you. They have their own stuff and its better. This is just an example of course. Breed to fit your own needs and you'll be happier then if you were trying to cater to the general public. JMO

I missed the survey/poll again darnit. You don't need to go to another site to get good advice, however it's always great to get as many opinions as you can. Like anything in life, breeding good dogs is about doing research and using common sense. Responsible people, like those who ask the questions here, will do that. Irresponsible people will not, and probably very little will change their mind. Insulting this forum as amateur hour only leads me to wonder why you're here. After all, you know where the big boys are and their stuff is better. :roll: Denise

[jessie]

I didn't say it was a good or bad thing. Just responding to a post that was inaccurate. Don't get so "bleep" defensive all the time. Here's an idea: go bake me a cake or something. Good grief.

[The Zephyr]

….and the Mr. Congeniality prize goes to……

Come on now, guess………

[tommyboy72]

Thanks for the encouragement Yawallac. All of my dogs are pets as well as hunting dogs. My dogs unlike a lot of pets do not sit in a kennel or the house the entire year until bird season roles around either. Fortunately I live in an area of the country where there is plenty of CRP, landowners are tolerant of dog training and there is a healthy supply of wild birds to train on. I have a very large back yard where my 4 bird dogs 3 of which are out of bird dog hall of fame bloodlines 2 pointers and a setter and my wifes Weimeraner who is also out of hunting stock have free run of the yard and provided the wind does not blow to hard which is really saying something for where I live they all get out to hunt and run at least once and sometimes twice a week in the spring, summer and fall during the off season. I do not doubt that this forum has some of the greatest trainers and breeders of bird dogs in the country if not the world on it but I am saying that I have seen enough posts by these professionals that state even after their years of training and experience that they still sort of make an educated guess at what to breed and what not to so how can a novice do any worse than making an educated guess himself. I just hate to see someone get discouraged from wanting a progeny out of a lifelong companion who makes him happy. I do not mean to disrespect any of the professionals on here. Some of us novices may be more discriminating than some of you professionals because we have a personal interest in the success of the pups. It is not just a business decision for us and we do not have multiple animals to choose pairings between so we may be a little choosier on who we pick to breed our personal champions to.

[pinebrookkennel]

Like I stated in the begining these are things to consider before breeding. At the point when you start to do your homework. This is great place for that. lots of helpfull advice for everone new or experienced to gun dogs. I started the list to inform and educate. Hopfully this can start someone down the right path to breeding

Jered

[Yawallac]

...even after their years of training and experience that they still sort of make an educated guess at what to breed and what not to so how can a novice do any worse than making an educated guess himself.

I study pedigrees, travel to watch dogs run and have a pretty good understanding of how things "should" play out when looking for studs for my girls ...and I have a fairly detailed plan for what I want to accomplish long term with my breeding program. BUT I don't make any breeding decisions without running them by some very knowledgable breeders that I trust. I always want to hear what they have to say and without exception their advise has always been very helpful...

I would reccommend to anyone wanting to breed their dog to get second, third and forth opinions. There is a wealth of knowledge available for every breed. Take advantage of it.

(PS. I wasn't encouraging breeding drops!!)

[CherrystoneWeims]

I'm going to chime in here again.

One thing that many of you must know is that the so called "Big Boys" go through a LOT of dogs to get those special ones that really shine. They breed a LOT of litters every year and have pups at all times. MOST of their dogs NEVER make it in the field trial world and disappear into oblivion either in hunting homes or wherever.

Yes breeding CAN be a crap shoot BUT those of us who don't breed a ton of litters every year do the best that we can to line up the genetics correctly with lots of research. I spend a lot of time, effort, and money traveling to events all across the country searching for the right dog to breed to my bitches. LOL I found one last week while I was at my National Show Specialty! Just browsing through a friend's old Blue Ribbon magazine from the 1980's. It must have been karma because his owner happened to be there and she hasn't gone to an event for at least 6 years! She lives in New Mexico! I found out that she has some frozen semen from him and she is willing to part with some of it. What luck! I get some of the old valuable blood lines!!!

[Gordon Guy]

You all have made me think about what it is that I look for in a stud dog. I'm currently planning on breeding one of my females and I have a stud dog in mind. As soon as she comes in, which could be any day now, I hope to have her bred. So here are the things I think are important, in order of importance:

1. Prey Drive/Desire. Without this they’re just a house dog.
2. Health issues
3. Temperament of dam and sire. Sometimes this can be man made situation
4. Natural ability: nose, early scent pointing, retrieving, honoring
5. Style
6. Desire to please, all the dogs I’ve had are born to please

I have the facilities to keep pups if there' s a delay in selling them so that isn't really a concern for me

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

This thread was a simple question of what some of us look for when we do breed, whether stud dog or in deciding whether we breed our own females. Tommyboy, it's not personal, it's about bettering breeds, forming educated opinions through experience. Owning a "weimeraner" doesn't exactly qualify you to breed. Please spell the breed correctly if you want to sound like you know what you are speaking about. Reality, everyone is a breeder nowadays. Whether they see it as a money making proposition or due to Westminster or it just seems darn fun. Breeding dogs properly is not a money making proposition. If done correctly, it is a giant loser. Hunting and competing with dogs to truly allow them to prove their worth to the gene pool costs big money. Caesarean sections, uteran anomolies, breech puppies, still borns, albinism, few pups in a litter, high dollar stud fees, frozen semen, AI, etc. costs far more than will ever be recouped. Breeding is not a fancy, but is a serious responsibility taken quite to heart by many. Most should never even consider breeding. Look in your local paper this weekend. There will be litter after litter, $100 pups, from "HOF breeding", BULL HOCKEY! The pups are the great great grandget of NFC Rawhide's Clown bred by some guy who amounts to being a puppy mill.

NO ONE claimed to be the best of anything on this site. However, many have years of competition, hunting, watching lines of dogs, knowing the dogs from pedigrees, don't just reading the lineage, but knew/know the dogs, have hunted over them, owned their brothers, their sires, their dams, have bred enough and watched enough to know what produces, not what they read on someone's internet site. Read The Basis of Linebreeding by JH Lents, Snakefoot by Bob Wehle. Hunt over 100 plus dogs, start 200 puppies, ride a thousand braces of dogs. Get some experience, then squawk.

[tommyboy72]

Trublue in case you did not read the post correctly I never said I owned a "Weim"- I said my wife owned a Weim. I own pointers( Did I spell Pointer correctly? Ya I think that is right.) and a setter. I apologize for the typo. Since most of the gentlemen and ladies on here are I am assuming married then enough said about ownership of assets between married couples. Whats hers is hers and whats mine is hers, she thinks. I am very sorry if I upset or antagonized anyone here. The only point I was trying to make and that you helped to verify was that not all of us are professionals and not all of us have the means, meaning money, or the time or the know how to go to all of the events that you are privy to. I am only stating that some of us are novices but that does not stop us from wanting to breed our companion and to perhaps get one good pup out of him or her before they pass away at 10 to 15 years old. I totally agree with what everyone is saying about starting with good bloodlines and healthy parents in order to establish a basis for a good pairing. I also was only stating that many of us novices are not looking for the next dog to make a trip to Ames Plantation with either, we are only looking for a good hunting dog and rather than paying someone $500-$1000 for a pup, why not breed your own provided you begin with the type of parents, bloodlines, attitude, etc. that you want. I also noticed some of the gentlemen on here talking about how pups that did not make their cut were sold and sent to hunting or pet homes. What makes these gentlemen think we want their culls? That is another benefit of breeding your own, you get the pick of the litter without paying extra. Just in case anyone thinks I am an irresponsible breeder I most certainly am not. Truth be told I have only ever bred one litter myself because I never found any of my dogs that I thought were worthy of breeding until recently and I am only stating my opinion the way that I am interpreting it on here. Once again I sincerely apologize if I have antagonized or offended anyone. And another thing Trublue I certainly wish that I had time to hunt over 100 dogs and start 200 pups and gain experience but I currently am finishing college all be it late in life and working toward making a career out of just what you told me to do.

[kninebirddog]

basically that is where many puppies start vecasue someoen wants a cheaper way to get a pup

So you have your pup what are you going to do with the rest ? many people don't think beyond that point of i ahve my pups


many stud fees are the price of a pup at least from your more proven lines...I am looking at a stud fee of 750 bucks ..and I ahve my own stud dog...but i am looking to bring in another female from lines that I want to add to my program//why because when i ahve those litters I want people to have teh best potential of having the dog they seek and be proud of

I know what I like in a dog...but I also go to trials and also judges yes I run NSTRA but I get to see pointer setter brittanys GSps good bad and ugly in all of them...I get to see it and try to put the desired strengths together and aim for better take minor fualts from one and breed to one that has stregths but both the dam and sire have to be strong being birddogs first with health being right there

i ask question from breeders and friends that have more knowledge or knowledge with different areas of the breed i have chosen

find out what is cross better and what to steer clear fromfind out why one breeder think a line is great and why one didn't like a line find out what the breedings were and generally you can find those weak crosses to stay away from.

so when someone thinks money ok a figure after shots and vet check docks and dews for my breed if i do an inhouse breeding whoppee I make about not quite but about 12 dollars a week per pup if i sell them by 7 weeks of age..... if i go outside for a stud it is much less then that average.......big money making venture there

[RoundRiver Setters]

I didn't say it was a good or bad thing. Just responding to a post that was inaccurate. Don't get so "bleep" defensive all the time. Here's an idea: go bake me a cake or something. Good grief.

I don't understand why somebody has to make a sexist remark to prove a point? Must be that she is getting the best of you!...............................Scott

[Ryan Baumann]

This thread was a simple question of what some of us look for when we do breed, whether stud dog or in deciding whether we breed our own females. Tommyboy, it's not personal, it's about bettering breeds, forming educated opinions through experience. Owning a "weimeraner" doesn't exactly qualify you to breed. Please spell the breed correctly if you want to sound like you know what you are speaking about. Reality, everyone is a breeder nowadays. Whether they see it as a money making proposition or due to Westminster or it just seems darn fun. Breeding dogs properly is not a money making proposition. If done correctly, it is a giant loser. Hunting and competing with dogs to truly allow them to prove their worth to the gene pool costs big money. Caesarean sections, uteran anomolies, breech puppies, still borns, albinism, few pups in a litter, high dollar stud fees, frozen semen, AI, etc. costs far more than will ever be recouped. Breeding is not a fancy, but is a serious responsibility taken quite to heart by many. Most should never even consider breeding. Look in your local paper this weekend. There will be litter after litter, $100 pups, from "HOF breeding", BULL HOCKEY! The pups are the great great grandget of NFC Rawhide's Clown bred by some guy who amounts to being a puppy mill.

NO ONE claimed to be the best of anything on this site. However, many have years of competition, hunting, watching lines of dogs, knowing the dogs from pedigrees, don't just reading the lineage, but knew/know the dogs, have hunted over them, owned their brothers, their sires, their dams, have bred enough and watched enough to know what produces, not what they read on someone's internet site. Read The Basis of Linebreeding by JH Lents, Snakefoot by Bob Wehle. Hunt over 100 plus dogs, start 200 puppies, ride a thousand braces of dogs. Get some experience, then squawk.

How about harvest a 150 wild chukar a year over them and decide????????????????? I do it every year and will do it this year. Plus i will walk away from limits. But I can tell you this unless you've done it on wild birds you haven't lived. The cap gun games are fun b8ut they are just an imitation of the real deal. No ill harm just honesty. I don't ride braces i hunt. So say what you will but I can produce my proof if needed! Its my exsperience that you don't need to by dogs there given to you! The best of the best! I'm telling ya this stuff i'vce quoted is not 100% true people. I am just being 100% honest promise. Oh and by the way some of my pups go to gracy kentucky if you know where thats at??????? The big show! But I just start them. Its funny what the big guys are looking for and trying??????????????

Ryan

[ezzy333]

I am sure by now each of you have explained why you are more qualifies to breed than someone else. However little of it makes a lot of sense other than everyone is sure they know the answers. So since it has degenerated in to name calling and my dog can beat your dog lets just go on to better things and we will lock this one.

[Yawallac]

I don't understand why somebody has to make a sexist remark to prove a point? Must be that she is getting the best of you!...............................Scott

Man, that struck me as sexist too.... thought Ezzy would be all over it. Oh, wait, nevermind....