I'll simplify it for ya Greg and I'll quote a good friend of mine who I learned from: JD Marti owner and trainer of Grand National Grouse Champion Jetrain and R.U. Champion Moonshine Crockett as well as the owner of Burnt Creek Setters and author of two books on dog training.
"Quit worrying about the retrieve. One is supposed to kill pointed, set, birds, thereby eliminating the need for retrieving on dry land. Walk over and pick the bird up. Simple!"
Kinda goes hand in hand with what Brenda just said about not shooting every bird...the dog simply does not need it! He does need to point every bird he contacts though...I hope you can agree with that!!
How old was your pup?
Boy, I can`t imagine what we`d spend on birds for killing each bird thats pointed correctly. Ughhh, birds cost us enough as is training up to 30 dogs. And, just a footnote, I will praise a dog verbally occasionally for watching a bird fly off and not moving. Seems to work as a "reward" as they don`t seem to have to concentrate after the work is done.
Last edited by snips on Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
brenda
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doublea
Well now that changes things considerable now don't it!! Now tell us which birds and how many we should shoot for our young dog and when we should shoot them. Obviously you do not recommend we shoot them all for a good and valid reason...what is it? It sure couldn't be that we need to get the dog staunch on point and encourage him to stay that way...or could it?Gregory wrote:
When I say every bird they handle well ,will depend on where the dogs training is or what I am working on. If I'm working a dog on Steady wind shot and fall, yes I do want to kill every birds till I establish the rutine I want the dog to know. But that is so far a way from the original question that it deserves a totally new thread.....
G.
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KC
Ok, I'm going to get in on this topic of reward....
My last hunting dog, a brittany, who was bred from field trial champion stock is what I will use as an example....
He was a great pointer, a big runner, but didn't give a d@#* about the retrieve or getting the bird in his mouth... Now that's probably my fault as I didn't train him much at all about the proper retrieve.... He just wanted to go hunting and keep hunting regardless of a dead bird being on the ground... Yes, ocassionally he would go after the bird pick it up for a second, but shortly after he would drop it and resume his hunting... It was a chore for me to get him to really even search for a dead bird...
So what does that mean? I assume it means I was a poor trainer on that aspect of his behavior. Second, I don't think he really thought of a bird in his mouth as much of a reward. He just loved to run and point like a statue... I believe his "reward" was more along the lines of the entire experience of hunting, running and pointing birds... The bird in his mouth, was lower on the totem poll IMO....
My last hunting dog, a brittany, who was bred from field trial champion stock is what I will use as an example....
He was a great pointer, a big runner, but didn't give a d@#* about the retrieve or getting the bird in his mouth... Now that's probably my fault as I didn't train him much at all about the proper retrieve.... He just wanted to go hunting and keep hunting regardless of a dead bird being on the ground... Yes, ocassionally he would go after the bird pick it up for a second, but shortly after he would drop it and resume his hunting... It was a chore for me to get him to really even search for a dead bird...
So what does that mean? I assume it means I was a poor trainer on that aspect of his behavior. Second, I don't think he really thought of a bird in his mouth as much of a reward. He just loved to run and point like a statue... I believe his "reward" was more along the lines of the entire experience of hunting, running and pointing birds... The bird in his mouth, was lower on the totem poll IMO....
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doublea
There is a difference in the normal training routine of the continetal breeds and the English breeds. The SHP, Britts, WHP, Viszlas, etc. all have the natural desire to retrieve that many pointers and setters have lost. I purposedly don't work on retrieving till the pup is pointing but work a pointer or setter just the opposite.
This said, let me make one other observation of the preceding posts. There is no right or wrong way to train a dog. Your way is right if it produces the dog you want. So why the arguement over the way someone does it? There is nothing wrong with Greg's method since he has proven it works. Your comments Doublea seem to me to be nothing more than finding fault with everyone elses method. It is fine to question the why of someone elses method but that is where it should end. So please tell us what you do, why you do it, and the results of your efforts and stop telling us what is wrong with someone elses method. You only demonstrate your lack of understanding what dog training really is when you do that.
Ezzy
This said, let me make one other observation of the preceding posts. There is no right or wrong way to train a dog. Your way is right if it produces the dog you want. So why the arguement over the way someone does it? There is nothing wrong with Greg's method since he has proven it works. Your comments Doublea seem to me to be nothing more than finding fault with everyone elses method. It is fine to question the why of someone elses method but that is where it should end. So please tell us what you do, why you do it, and the results of your efforts and stop telling us what is wrong with someone elses method. You only demonstrate your lack of understanding what dog training really is when you do that.
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
I would too KC. There are many dogs, that no matter how you start them, still don`t like the taste of feathers. I recently had a dog to FF that hated picking up a bird so much that I just finally gave him one to eat. He picked and plucked at it enough that he got a taste of meat, then snacked. After that he thought picking up a bird was OK. I just put 2 legs of SH on him. He still is not the most impressive retriever I have had.
brenda
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doublea
What I do is encourage my dogs to stay on point. How I do this is by allowing the dog to enjoy the act of pointing by teaching the dog to be confident in his nose and by fine tuning all of his senses including his eyes and ears. What I accomplish by doing this is that I end up with a mentally tuff dog that will not move at all while on point even if the bird walks under his nose or jumps up onto a rock and sometimes they do in a field trial! Whats more I don't end up with a dog that anticipates the flush of the bird and winds up under my feet helping me flush the bird! Why? Simple, because the dog does not view the act of retrieving or getting a bird in his mouth as being a reward. If you are in need of further explanation...please, don't hesitate to ask!
Let me also add that even though I prescribe to a Setter guys way of training...I train raise and compete with GSP's! The bird work and the training is the same for all POINTING breeds!! The difference comes with your expectations after the shot.
As to your statement about asking the whys of another method...I have. In fact I have asked both Greg and Janet and neither of them as of yet have answered! Maybe you could take a crack at getting them to explain their methods and why they do what they do the way they do it!
Let me also add that even though I prescribe to a Setter guys way of training...I train raise and compete with GSP's! The bird work and the training is the same for all POINTING breeds!! The difference comes with your expectations after the shot.
As to your statement about asking the whys of another method...I have. In fact I have asked both Greg and Janet and neither of them as of yet have answered! Maybe you could take a crack at getting them to explain their methods and why they do what they do the way they do it!
Last edited by doublea on Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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sudiegirl
i know it is true with kids.... and i believe that it is true with dogs also. though it may be more fun to get candy, my kids (both human and dog) also beam when i give them verbal praise for their good deeds.snips wrote:I like to think in terms of training bird dogs to kids. If your kid does a good deed, is he always rewarded with candy? or money? Sometimes a "good boy" is enough. I think dogs can get soured by NEVER getting a bird shot, but they, by far don`t need every bird shot that they handle correctly. I think the end result is THE SAME with kids and dogs. If they get every bird shot they SOON grow to always expect that reward, just as a child would think he should get "something" for doing something. Dogs, just as kids learn to appreciate a well deserved reward.
and didn't someone in another post say that it is GOOD to not let your dog retrieve EVERY bird you shoot b/c you don't want them to anticipate what you want before you tell them what to do?
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gundogguru
I let my GWP retrieve every bird that is shot. That doesn't mean that I kill every bird I shoot at. MY girl loves to retrieve and that is the reward for pointing and holding the point till released (most of the time) She doesn't usually break till I pay to enter a hunt test. If there is no reward most young dog that I have workrd with would point then jump on the bird. Just my .02 cents
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doublea
ezzy333
Sorry if I seemed snappy in my response to your earlier post. The frustration got to me. Yes, I said frustration, as that is exactly what it I consider it to be when one asks a question and does not get an answer. In a nut shell, the crux to my whole problem with this debate is...why on earth would you want to use a retrieved bird as a reward, when just seconds before and while the dog was pointing you were doing everything in your power to keep the dog from getting this very same bird in his mouth to start with!!? Oh sure we can shoot every bird or every other bird for the dog, heck we can do what ever we want... it don't mean that we should or that we need too now does it? What’s more, those that suggest we use the retrieve as a reward have yet to explain the logic and benefit of doing so, especially with that 12-week-old pup that was used as an example in an earlier post or have they answered my questions about how many birds should be shot, how we know if the dog is ready for a bird to be shot ect. ect., ...even though they have been asked to do so several times. This idea of good dog get the bird via the retrieve...ohh, no not yet...I want you staunch on point so you can't get the bird makes no sense to me at all and I bet it don't to the dog either!! The first thing I learned from old JD Marti was to be consistent in your expectations and your demands; or to put it another way...see things from the dogs point of view. In this case the dog is confused as to what you want; get the bird/don't get the bird and so am I!
Sorry if I seemed snappy in my response to your earlier post. The frustration got to me. Yes, I said frustration, as that is exactly what it I consider it to be when one asks a question and does not get an answer. In a nut shell, the crux to my whole problem with this debate is...why on earth would you want to use a retrieved bird as a reward, when just seconds before and while the dog was pointing you were doing everything in your power to keep the dog from getting this very same bird in his mouth to start with!!? Oh sure we can shoot every bird or every other bird for the dog, heck we can do what ever we want... it don't mean that we should or that we need too now does it? What’s more, those that suggest we use the retrieve as a reward have yet to explain the logic and benefit of doing so, especially with that 12-week-old pup that was used as an example in an earlier post or have they answered my questions about how many birds should be shot, how we know if the dog is ready for a bird to be shot ect. ect., ...even though they have been asked to do so several times. This idea of good dog get the bird via the retrieve...ohh, no not yet...I want you staunch on point so you can't get the bird makes no sense to me at all and I bet it don't to the dog either!! The first thing I learned from old JD Marti was to be consistent in your expectations and your demands; or to put it another way...see things from the dogs point of view. In this case the dog is confused as to what you want; get the bird/don't get the bird and so am I!
Last edited by doublea on Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gundogguru
<< edited: rules violation >> And as far as logic goes The whole point of having a pointer is to find and point game. The way you talk you want your dog to find game and kill it for you. The reward IS the retrieve so the next time the dog goes on point the dog thinks if I hold the point I'll get the reward. It'spretty simple logic. << edited: rules violation >>
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doublea
gundogguru,
You forgot to mention the purpose of a pointer is to retrieve...why was that? Hmmm.....
No, I don't need the dog to kill it for me....although at times it would probably be easier if they did! Fact is like I mentioned earlier I can walk out and pick up my own cleanly shot bird and so can you. I do however need a dog to point, set or hold that bird on the ground so I can get a good clean safe shot. As such I don't want or need the dog anticipating the flush of the bird and jumping into the air or running between my legs to help me put the bird up or trying to get feathers in his mouth. Maybe you need one or like one that does those things and then in turn retrieves those wounded birds you have or maybe your a duck hunter and you can't swim....I don't know what your situation is and don't much care. But I will give you this much you do know what the Pointing dog is for and that's "FINDING AND POINTING" game!!
You forgot to mention the purpose of a pointer is to retrieve...why was that? Hmmm.....
No, I don't need the dog to kill it for me....although at times it would probably be easier if they did! Fact is like I mentioned earlier I can walk out and pick up my own cleanly shot bird and so can you. I do however need a dog to point, set or hold that bird on the ground so I can get a good clean safe shot. As such I don't want or need the dog anticipating the flush of the bird and jumping into the air or running between my legs to help me put the bird up or trying to get feathers in his mouth. Maybe you need one or like one that does those things and then in turn retrieves those wounded birds you have or maybe your a duck hunter and you can't swim....I don't know what your situation is and don't much care. But I will give you this much you do know what the Pointing dog is for and that's "FINDING AND POINTING" game!!
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gundogguru
Well after 14 years of training dogs 8 of them as a pro trainer and Handler. I think I have a pretty good idea about what I'm talking about. My dogs don't jump at the flush and they don't chase the birds My dogs have Master titles on them or soon will. I don't know what your hang up is with a dog making a reterive is. My GWP's are a versatile breed they can do it all. With out a dog that can't or won't reterive I bet you loss a lot more game than hunters with a dog that can. What kind of dog do you have any way? And yes I do love to hunt ducks and I do it with my GWP.
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Gregory
doublea wrote:Well now that changes things considerable now don't it!! Now tell us which birds and how many we should shoot for our young dog and when we should shoot them. Obviously you do not recommend we shoot them all for a good and valid reason...what is it? It sure couldn't be that we need to get the dog staunch on point and encourage him to stay that way...or could it?Gregory wrote:
When I say every bird they handle well ,will depend on where the dogs training is or what I am working on. If I'm working a dog on Steady wind shot and fall, yes I do want to kill every birds till I establish the rutine I want the dog to know. But that is so far a way from the original question that it deserves a totally new thread.....
G.
No Alan, It does not have anything what so ever to do getting the dog stounch on point. The dog was stounch on point waaaaaaay before I killed any birds wfor him. Nope nothing at all with getting a dog stouch by killing birds for him. If that was the case, we would kill all the birds pointed or not . It does though have to do with what i already said five times already that went totally over your head.. When I start killing birds for the dog Alan I'm entering the dog in to a different phase of his training,and I think that is the part you can't copmprehend. I can explaint again and again but unless you can open your mid to obsorb what i just said , you will continue to bounce the already answered question off of me again. I'd rather not continue this discussion with you again, on this thread....
I will though give you something to ponder. If all starts and ends with a dogs point, why then do unbroke dogs chase missed bird to the next county.HMMm?
G.
Thanks gang!grant wrote:Good stuff guys and gals, but its starting to go the wrong way. I don't want to go on a deleting rampage, because its an interesting argument. However, to keep this post on topic, lets leave the speculation of each others training methods to PM's or email. KC, asked a question and got different view points, which is a good thing....
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KC
Took Jake on his first hunt on saturday....
We were hunting chukar as I mentioned earlier...
Here are the results.....
It was pretty windy and warm... I had a general idea of where the birds were planted, but not exactly...
Jake started out pretty slow for some reason, that I eventually figured out... The first 5-10 minutes he found nothing in the area that had birds, kind of got me a little worried... He jumped up a rabbit and went like a scalded dog after it... Had to use the collar on him which put him on his butt....
I ended up flushing the first bird myself. I let jake take a look and sniff at the bird to let him know what we were after (keep in mind that this is the first time since he was 2 months old that he has even been around birds). The second bird I also flushed myself and dropped a leg on him. We went to where the bird landed and after Jake got downwind of it he lays a nice point down.. The bird was still alive at that point... I picked the bird up and that my friends was the start of a wonderful rest of the morning.
Jake ended up solidly pointing the remaining 4 birds (6 total). He had very solid points and remained that way even after the flush and fall of the bird (I think the rabbit incident had something to do with it). I'm so proud of him... He did very well once he knew what we were after... No retrieves to brag about, but it will come...
I just wanted to let you know....
We were hunting chukar as I mentioned earlier...
Here are the results.....
It was pretty windy and warm... I had a general idea of where the birds were planted, but not exactly...
Jake started out pretty slow for some reason, that I eventually figured out... The first 5-10 minutes he found nothing in the area that had birds, kind of got me a little worried... He jumped up a rabbit and went like a scalded dog after it... Had to use the collar on him which put him on his butt....
I ended up flushing the first bird myself. I let jake take a look and sniff at the bird to let him know what we were after (keep in mind that this is the first time since he was 2 months old that he has even been around birds). The second bird I also flushed myself and dropped a leg on him. We went to where the bird landed and after Jake got downwind of it he lays a nice point down.. The bird was still alive at that point... I picked the bird up and that my friends was the start of a wonderful rest of the morning.
Jake ended up solidly pointing the remaining 4 birds (6 total). He had very solid points and remained that way even after the flush and fall of the bird (I think the rabbit incident had something to do with it). I'm so proud of him... He did very well once he knew what we were after... No retrieves to brag about, but it will come...
I just wanted to let you know....
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gsprescuewi
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Margaret
If I am lucky enough to actually shoot a bird, then my dog can retrieve it and gets a reward of pats and praise when it brings the bird to me.
Anything I ask the dog to retrieve it gets a reward for, pats and praise.
Some people seem to take their little pups out under a shotgun way too early IMO. Can run a risk of causing gun shyness, it only needs the pup to get a fright or be accidently hurt as the gun goes off and there you have set up a bad situation.
Maybe too a risk of the owner expecting too much if a puppy does well, and then next time dissapointment if pup has an off day, so it becomes a pressure thing rather than fun for young pups.
If people want to talk about rewards for dogs, then being out in the field and doing what the dog loves to do is reward enough for the dog. The teamwork and pleasure each give the other, dog&owner, is reward.
Getting out of the office and into the countryside is reward too
And my dogs think so too I'm sure.
Marg
Anything I ask the dog to retrieve it gets a reward for, pats and praise.
Some people seem to take their little pups out under a shotgun way too early IMO. Can run a risk of causing gun shyness, it only needs the pup to get a fright or be accidently hurt as the gun goes off and there you have set up a bad situation.
Maybe too a risk of the owner expecting too much if a puppy does well, and then next time dissapointment if pup has an off day, so it becomes a pressure thing rather than fun for young pups.
If people want to talk about rewards for dogs, then being out in the field and doing what the dog loves to do is reward enough for the dog. The teamwork and pleasure each give the other, dog&owner, is reward.
Getting out of the office and into the countryside is reward too
And my dogs think so too I'm sure.
Marg