Hall of fame

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:50 am

I see that the GSPCA put Checkmates Dandy Dude as one of the first two dogs in their hall of fame.I don't believe Dude ever won a GSPCA hour event!And that was back when they were taking turns putting up each others dogs!Come on guys,how about putting some real shorthairs in that hall of fame.How about Kay v.Wildburg,Patricia v.Frulord,Ammertals Lancer "D",Rip Traf V. Bess to name a few...vern

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:01 am

GSPCA? There is only one GSPCA hour event each year and in Dude's day that trial rotated around the country. Do you mean NGSPA hour events?

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:50 am

sorry,I meant the NGSPA.We had the Reg.5 and the Reg4 around here and the All Breed and I don't think he placed in any of them.Plus he was a fear biter.An amateur could never have owned a dog like that and won.The pro's would have run you out town.Where do you think the name savage sam comes from,not because he wanted to sit in your lap...vern

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:39 am

Vern,

Dude took R/U at the '74 NGPDA National All Age. He lost to his son, Viktor's Tip Top TJ.

Here's a question for you. What do the following dogs that won at least 1 national championship stake of one kind or another have in common?

Viktor's Tip Top TJ
Checkmate's White Smoke
Tip Top Savage Sam
PJ Wildfire
Rommel's Big Shooter
Direct's Vegas Review
Checkmate's Dee Direct
Gretchen's Pride
Whitmer's Sweet Savage Sam

The answer to that question is the reason why Dude got into the NGSPA Hall of Fame. From '74 to '84, at least 1 of the 3 AA Nationals (NGSPA, NGPDA, GSPCA) had a winner or R/U sired by Dude every year except '76. No other dog in the history of our breed has been that dominant.

IMO, Dude getting into the NGSPA Hall of Fame was a slam dunk. Now Rusty on the other hand?

JMO,
Dave

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:17 pm

Well Dave considering how may FC's Rusty produced with so few breedings I think he was a shoe in as well. Getting into the Hall of Fame as I understand it isn't necessarily so much about what one individual dog does during their lifetime as much as what their lasting contribution to the breed over all is. CR

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Dave,I didn't mean Dude shouldn't be in the hall of fame but not in front of the real GSP's before him.It's unnatural trait for a GSP to run all age.Dave,most of the dogs you mentioned other than wildfire,couldn't reproduce themselves-why would that be?

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:13 pm

Lancer D IS in the HOF I believe. He produced around 28 FC's.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:13 pm

You're right Charlie, Rusty produced a ton of FCs. That's why he's in the GSPCA Hall of Fame. And he deserves to be.

But we're talking about the NGSPA; the AKC Field Champion title isn't really relevant.

What did Rusty produce in terms of dominant hour champions, especially all age and national champions? Obviously Koonas, who won the AA twice and RU once. Rexx is in there, but he never got a piece of a national. Who else you got? Rusty got bred a ton more than Dude; show me the list of dominant hour dogs he produced?

Vern wrote:

Dave,I didn't mean Dude shouldn't be in the hall of fame but not in front of the real GSP's before him.It's unnatural trait for a GSP to run all age.Dave,most of the dogs you mentioned other than wildfire,couldn't reproduce themselves-why would that be?

Vern, it's an unnatural trait for English Pointers and English Setters to run all age as well. And face it; none of the dogs you mentioned left as big an impact on championship GSP trialing as Dude did.

Sam certainly produced, including 3x AA NGPDA CH Leipchen Buddendorf and FC Sundance Gypsy Lee, who got a piece of a couple of nationals and produced Baron von Blitzkrieg, who won 2 AA Nationals himself.

We usually put dogs into the Hall of Fame, including the GSPCA Hall of Fame, based on production. Dude has 5 offspring in the GSPCA HoF (Sam, Gypsy Lee, White Smoke, Big Foot, Wildfire). Which one of those dogs didn't produce? I'll agree with you; Checkmate's Challenger sure didn't produce much

I guess I don't understand how on one hand you can imply that Dude wasn't a "real GSP" and then say you don't mean Dude shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, just not first.

You've been around the breed long enough to know exactly the kind of dog the NGSPA was going to put into the Hall of Fame. Then again, since you gave up on the GSP for the exciting, highly competitive world of GWP championships, why do you care? :roll:

JMO,
Dave

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:38 pm

snips wrote:Lancer D IS in the HOF I believe. He produced around 28 FC's.

Brenda,

You are correct; Lancer D is in the GSPCA Hall of Fame. As are all of the other dogs than Vern mentioned in his initial post.

GSPCA Hall of Fame list available here:
http://gsp-photos.us/HOF.htm

FYI,
Dave

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:17 pm

Nice jab Dave!One of the reasons I left was I got tried of seeing people getting rewarded for the off breeding and the cheating that was going on.It was a different time Dave,the midwest pro's totaly controled the NGSPA with very little particpation from the west coast.

larue · Post by **larue** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:08 am

vern,you touched on a topic that is very important to the gsp as a breed,
but rarely talked about, performance vs temperment.
I recently had the chance to try to put a dog in the dogbox,short of a suit
of armor,I could not do it.Plain and simple the dog wanted to bite me if the owner was not there.
So how important is a dogs temperment or lack of a good one when we look at a bitch or a stud? does the dogs performance outwiegh everything?

And should we be looking at more than just a dogs records for the hof?
Do we want a known agressve dog to be in the hof as examples of the gsp?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:32 am

Here's another HOF GSP out of Dude:

HOF FC AFC Hidden Hollow's Ronlord Ruler

Dude was a PRODUCER!!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:03 am

I happen to have an AF ped. with both Dude and Rusty in it, and also PJ Wildfire. Dude's numbers were 39-34-608 and Rusty's were 28-64-594 . PJ Wildfire's were 86-65-522 .

There needs to be a footnote to these numbers. As Vern suggests, times change. And one way in which they have changed is that the AF numbers from a few generations ago contain far more half hour wins than they do today. For example, none of the three dogs had hour Championship wins anywhere near 39, 28, or 86, although all three were successful hour dogs. The most hour championships is credited to Joe Amatulli's Selena with, I believe, 32 right now.

That said, all three were very high quality producers of their time. No question. And there were a number of others as well.

The NGSPA recognizes that there are quite a few of the older dogs that deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. It was limited to two dogs the first time around. I think we will see an effort to accelerate the admission of many of the older dogs that are deserving now that the HoF has officially been inaugurated.

Also, the NGSPA does not limit its selections to AF/NGSPA data. It has an official liason from the GSPCA on the selection committee, and is determined to make selections which are a credit to the entire breed, not just to one organization.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:07 am

PS I would not be so quick to discount the perspectives of Bigoak and greyrockd (from another thread). One can sit down and hear what they speak of in just about any of the GSP field trial halls around the country, how much of it is true, how much is changing times, and how much is fabrication born of old rivalries (definitely not pointing at either of the two of them), who knows.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:45 am

Thank You John, those numbers say a lot. CR

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:56 am

Can someone explain what the numbers mean?

aa-bb-ccc ???

Thanks,

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:06 pm

honeyrun wrote:Can someone explain what the numbers mean?

aa-bb-ccc ???

Thanks,

Cindy,

# of wins a dog has - # of offspring with wins - total # of offspring wins.

Wins can be local AF trials or championships.

FYI,
Dave

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:43 pm

To add a little to Dave's explanation, the numbers I gave are American Field numbers only. American Field does not have the AKC/GSPCA records and vice versa. And to my knowledge, the AKC/GSPCA does not publish similar numbers to the AF numbers. You can get a progeny report from the AKC which lists the number of titled progeny of a particular sire or dam, that would be titles of all types so even hunt test titles and obedience titles would be included in the AKC report. AF would be field trial wins only. There is some overlap between the AKC and AF numbers, because many trials particularly half hour weekend stakes, are cross-sanctioned, that is, they are reported to both organizations. But it is by no means a perfect overlap.

The bottom line is that the AF numbers do not reflect all of the wins by a dog, or all of its successful progeny, only those that were successful in AF sanctioned trials. And vice versa, the AKC/GSPCA records do not record all of the successful dogs and their progeny, only those that were successful under the AKC/GSPCA umbrella.

But knowing the members of the HoF selection committee for the NGSPA, I doubt that they even looked at the numbers whether AF or AKC. They are all people of sufficient age and experience in the breed that they chose among dogs they had actually seen in competition and had first hand experience with, and among people they actually knew as friends and competitors. Being the classy bunch they are, they also decided that no member of the Committee could be placed in the HoF, nor could one of their dogs be placed in the HoF, for so long as that person served on the selection Committee.

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:48 pm

It would be interesting to know how many times each dog was bred and how many total puppies each dog produced inorder to get to those numbers.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:12 pm

You can sort of get that by getting an AKC progeny report. In those days almost all litters were simultaneously registered with the AKC and AF, and the AKC report will list all successful progeny by dam and by the pup's name and other info., so you can tell which are littermates. For Rusty there were 30 litters which produced AKC titled dogs, and although there were a few obedience and hunt test titles from those litters, at least one pup from each litter was an FC or AFC.

To get total puppies you would have to get litter registration records (not free) for each and every litter.

He also produced three NFC and one NAFC, although bear in mind that in those days the title NFC went to both the AA winner and the OGD winner. And he produced two DC's.

The 30 number does not tell you how many times the dog was bred though. Many times the breedings are for hunting stock only, and the pups are never trialed and may not even get registered. No one would have the total number except maybe Linda Husser, or the Hermann's if they are still around.

I had Clowns progeny report at one time but appear to have lost it. I never got one on Dude or PJ.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:15 pm

PS One of the Rusty breedings was to a dog named Big Oaks Bitsha, which produced NAFC FC AFC Big Oaks Irish Mist and FC AFC Big Oaks Tiny Tim . I wonder who the breeder of that litter was? Vern, you wouldn't happen to know?

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:45 pm

Art Creaney of Bristol Wi,raised the litter out of BigOaks Bitsha and Dixieland Rusty.There were 10 pups in the litter.When we we came to pick out our pup,I took the biggest female and called her Irish Mist because Art was from Ireland and Timmy was the smallest pup in the litter.Bitsha was dam of the year around 1987 and misty was also dam of the year.God, I'd love to have another one like her!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:03 pm

I just saw Rob Creaney this past weekend, got to spend some time with him. I think I told you before that I bought Spot's mother from him, that was twelve years ago. Rob had one really nice looking pup on his string, but wasn't running dogs, he was judging the NASDC at Booneville.

So you won the 1988 NAFC with her?

And you might be able to tell us something about old Rusty from first hand experience?

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:36 pm

Sounds like someone I'd like to sit down with and learn a few things about Snap E Tom. CR

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:46 pm

John,Misty won the 1987 akc nat.amateur And Spot was RU.in1988.In the 2nd series,My scout,Frank Delmont called point about 200 yards off the course and a wild covey of quail flushed before the judges got there.It was his only find.They planted the center of the course and he just rimmed the place....vern