shorthair differences

[up-hunter]

I was wondering what the main differences are between shorthairs heavy in navhda lines and shorthairs with heavy field trial lines. I'm talking more about hunting differences than temperment.

[markj]

They all started out from one branch on the GSP tree, but this breed is so versatile it can be run in many different types of venues or competitions.

I see it as a training thing, you can train it to do anything.

[volraider]

one looks like an german shorthaired pointer (NAVHDA) and some of or most of the others look like english pointers with short tails.

[larue]

there can be alot of difference,or very little.
I myself feel that most trial bred dogs could do very well in navhda,if they
where trained and ran in navhda.
As far as hunting differences,most navhda bred dogs will probably handle a little closer,yet training will have a large impact on that.
I would not be afraid to go with either,just look at the parents more than
what "type" of gsp it is,be it a trial or a navhda bred pup.

[markj]

like english pointers with short tails.

hey there, hows the dogs doing? Mine is one heck of a hard hunting dog. Cant keep him home or in the truck, he wants to hunt everything no breaks.

[WildRose]

Vol you seem to be forgetting the fact that the all time leading producer of NAVHDA UT1 dogs was in fact a GSP bred straight out of the best field trial stock in the US.

The predominant difference in the whiter vs darker dogs simply comes from the whiter dogs being more heavily bred in the Southern 1/3 of the US as well as in FT circles. It has to do mainly with the fact that the whiter dogs are much easier to see in the field (unless you are hunting in snow) and tend to have a better tolerance of heat which is very important if you live below the Mason/Dixon Line or run a lot of warm weather field trials. CR

[ACooper]

one looks like an german shorthaired pointer (NAVHDA) and some of or most of the others look like english pointers with short tails.

Look like pointers how? Because of their color? Oh yeah I forgot all real shorthairs are big dark colored dogs right? Come on man lets not go this route again there is another thread already going on this.

[Yawallac]

If I wanted a kick-butt NAVHDA dog, I would start with the hottest field trial blood I could find. It's more about training than anything else if you have a well bred dog.

Don't let the bootlicker breeders fool you into thinking that you need to start with that blood to be successful in NAVHDA. As Charlie pointed out the No.1 producer of UT1's is a FT bred dog. And the youngest UT GSP ever (for many, many years) was directly out of FT lines. ...and the first GSP MH was out of FT lines.

There is so much marketing blarney out there. Get the best FT bred pup you can find and your odds are very good.

JMO.

[thunderhead]

Don't let the bootlicker breeders fool you into thinking that you need to start with that blood to be successful in NAVHDA

NAVHDA dogs are not necessarily boot lickers.

[volraider]

ACooper color has nothing to do with looking like a pointer. It's all about head, ears, and being elbowed out.

Charlie you know I have a couple of pups out of Ruger so Cecil is the grandfather. I have seen your dogs and they are all very clean looking Gsp's but look at some of the stuff being bred for trials and tell me they look more like Fiddler, Guardrail, and other pointers than gsp's. I want a dog to run but I prefer shorthairs.

[Yawallac]

NAVHDA dogs are not necessarily boot lickers.

Agreed. In fact, the best ones are not. IMO.

I was referring to breeders of "close working" dogs. As if that is something special... IMO, it is not. My big running Pointers hunt close in woodcock cover. I would rather my dogs hunt close because of training, not breeding.

[griffgirl]

I was wondering what the main differences are between shorthairs heavy in navhda lines and shorthairs with heavy field trial lines. I'm talking more about hunting differences than temperment.

Hes a proud Griff owner.....

[Wagonmaster]

What is a NAVDHA dog?

I posted this picture on another thread. This was a NAVHDA dog.

http://www.gsp-photos.us/field/ammertal_ranger.htm

[thunderhead]

To me, the ideal dog is cooperative but has enough independence to stretch it out in the open country. In the grouse woods they shorten up a bit to still keep tract of you.

[Greg Jennings]

A thought experiment: Think about a NAVHDA world where there are no GSPs going back to FT dogs.

No Hillhaven's Hustler, no KJ's Hightailing Saddle and thus no Window's Saddle Tramp. No Shooting Starr dogs, and no Sharp Shooter dogs. No Thunderhead dogs. No Walnut Hill Dogs. Et. al.

Sounds like an awfully poor world to me.

Greg J. "Proud owner of a FT/NAVHDA/by-danged BIRD dog".

PS: My training partner owns the first Irish Setter to get a UT-1. Guess what...out of field trial stock.

I don't think that FT is the be-all and end-all. But I do get a mite torqued at the folks that broad-brush that ROFT acroynm.

[thunderhead]

What is a NAVDHA dog?

I posted this picture on another thread. This was a NAVHDA dog.

http://www.gsp-photos.us/field/ammertal_ranger.htm

What is a field trial dog?
My first shorthair was out of Ammertal's Boss Ranger. He sure was a great pheasant dog. He had legs and a motor.

[WildRose]

I don't know what a "field trial dog" is either at least as far as being differentiated from a "hunting dog".

This dog http://wildrosegermanshorthairs.com/ima ... now_05.jpg was a pretty decent duck dog, a very good hog dog, and an outstanding upland dog over all till he was about five and I decided to field trial him. He's won, he's placed several times, but he's far from the "best trial dog" I ever saw. Mostly he just thinks he's my best friend and front seat buddy. CR

[r.r.rouse]

Had a fella tell me once you can pull that rope in alot easier than push it out.

[ACooper]

What kind of trials? walking? horseback? Nstra? NBDC?, it is very hard to say "trial dogs" look a particular way? Just like Navhda dogs are not even close to uniform.
My point is field trial dogs are navhda dogs and vice versa, its the owner the prefers navhda or field trials etc.

[wannabe]

I don't know what a "field trial dog" is either at least as far as being differentiated from a "hunting dog".

My field trial dogs are bred, selected, and trained to a higher standard than what I expect from my hunting dogs.

[adogslife]

A FT bred dog would not indicate lack of versatility. But, if one were looking for versatility looking toward FT stock is not where one ought to start the search.
How many of the NAVHDA dogs are succeeding in FT'ing these days?

[Wagonmaster]

My first shorthair was out of Ammertal's Boss Ranger. He sure was a great pheasant dog. He had legs and a motor.

Thunderhead, one of the many small pleasures in life has been that I have seen and talked to Gary several times this past year. He called me on Thanksgiving Day just to congratulate me on Spot's accomplishments. He is one of the kindest people you will ever meet, and loved that dog so much his Suburban still bears the license plate "Ranger," although Ranger has been gone a very long time.

I will tell him what you said, he would be very pleased.

The "knock" on Ranger, if you could call it that, was that he himself was a "one man" dog, that is, he was trained and run entirely by Gary and lived in the house. Never a pro's dog. And the pups he produced did not seem to do well in a pro string. I don't know about you, but a dog that lies on the bed and needs a relationship with someone to really work well, is a dog I like alot.

[thunderhead]

Wagonmaster

You bring back some fond memories of me as a youngster when all I wanted to do was chase roosters behind my first gsp. He was so graceful in the way he covered the field. If I knew then what I know now, and had the resources, he would have been a field champion.

[volraider]

I have 2 pups out of AFC/FC Ruger Weltmiester and one is a 110 prize I and the other is a prize III. The female would have been a 112 but I was penalized because of how big she ran. The judges said she was a self hunter.


The is nothing nicer than a good handling shooting dog. To me that is the ultimate range for a bird dog. I also want my shorthairs to look like shorthairs.

[Wagonmaster]

Rick Heller, who owns Ruger, is also a friend. He scouted Spot for me in the Hun Championship, did a heck of a job. Spot edged Ruger out for Shooting Dog of the Year.

If you are looking for good NAVHDA dogs, Dennis Brath's operation is the "perfect storm." He trained NAVHDA dogs for quite awhile as I understand it, and now is trialing. He is one of the best handlers we have on the NGSPA hour circuit right now. The Staci dog that he runs, owned by Larry Sherinski, just won a big All Age Championship in TX. So he has dogs right now that definitely go both ways.

Keith and Bobbi Richardson out in Cheyenne, WY are the same way. They have someone who trains dogs for NAVHDA for them, they themselves participated heavily in NAVHDA, still sponsor some events, but now are almost completely converted to field trialing. Their dog Ch. Prairie Wind's Comeuppance is the NGSPA All Age Dog of the Year.

So now, please tell me again. What is a NAVHDA dog and what is a field trial dog. Cause I have seen an awful lot of dogs and people that do both, or have started in NAVHDA and then went to field trials. I myself did that 27 years ago. Trained a GWP to a Prize I NA, and then finished him as an AFC.

[Yawallac]

But, if one were looking for versatility looking toward FT stock is not where one ought to start the search.

Really? That's where I would look.

[Wagonmaster]

Here is the sister to the trial dog, hatin' the water:



I have told this one before, so those who have read it bear with me. Last year we were filled out and driving a back road to camp when we went by an older fella obviously looking for a wounded pheasant on the east edge of a cattail slough of about 100 yards in dia. I asked if he wanted dog help and he said please. So I took the field trial stock sister out and put her on a check cord. She immediately picked up scent. The bird was dropping blood, so she was able to track it through the entire slough, through fresh foot scent from many other birds. I still had the check cord on, so she had to put up with the nuisance of me threading the cord through the cattails.

She got to the west edge of the slough, into short green grass, and still had the track. So I let go the check cord. She followed the rooster out to the road ditch, then tracked it full tilt down the ditch. Eventually I could see it running a couple hundred yards up.

About this time the hunter had gotten in his truck and was driving towards us. I signaled him to follow the dog, as she was going way too fast for me to keep up with. Up the road about three hundred yards there was a "T" intersection. I saw first the rooster go over the intersecting road, then the dog, then the dog brought the rooster back to my friend who had driven up to the intersection. He gave us a ride back to the truck, saying he had never seen anything like that before.

We drove that track just to get a mileage. A quarter mile from beginning to end.

Then she did the same thing again this year on another running rooster felled when she was not present.

So what do I have here? I guess I am confused. She likes the water, tracks like a bloodhound, runs and points like a trial dog head and tail high, and is out of just about as much field trial stock as I could possibly find. Not to mention she has this field trial brother.

[Greg Jennings]

A FT bred dog would not indicate lack of versatility. But, if one were looking for versatility looking toward FT stock is not where one ought to start the search.

My own pup, below, had a 112 NA-1. Then, again, what about his sire, Fritz???? Seems like he's pretty versatile.

Greg J.

[Wagonmaster]

By the way, Greg, I had a second hand conversation with Ronnie about two hours ago. Second hand meaning he was riding in the truck with Eldon listening in on the conversation. I asked how Gunner was doing. I got, "He's doing good." Ronnie has such a way with words.

[WildRose]

I don't know what a "field trial dog" is either at least as far as being differentiated from a "hunting dog".

My field trial dogs are bred, selected, and trained to a higher standard than what I expect from my hunting dogs.

They (my trial and hunting dogs)are all selected from the same litters, and the few I buy have to make it as hunting dogs before I will ever consider spending the time and money to trial them. My entry fees (all my own dogs) for my next trial will run about $750.00, that in itself is a huge limitation.

My "trial string" are all dogs I hunt, and the only difference between them and the "plain ole hunting dogs" is that there's a limit to how much time I can dedicate to training my own as well as how much I can afford to spend trialing them.

Trialing is just my hobby, I have to train the dogs I'm getting paid for first.

CR

My original point is that you can't separate trial and hunting dogs in this breed since for many of us they are one in the same.

[Margaret]

NAVHDA type dogs are foot hunters dogs that are tested for their ability to perform various tasks and to enable breeding choices to retain the breeds ability to do so, not just have the owners talk about how well their dogs would do if they bothered to enter them.

As for the water photo. I can post a pic of my bitch leaping into the water like a high powered retriever - but she can't swim worth a darn. She loves to retrieve from water but coming toward me I start singing Proud Mary.

As for the bootlicker part, I think the majority of hunters would prefer their 50 to 150 yrd bootlicker they hunted together with than something that doesn't care where they are and is so far away you probably need eyeglasses to see what they are doing.

Of course these dogs are easy to get to hunt close, you just put an e-collar on them. :roll: Hardly the point though is it?

[WildRose]

As for the water photo. I can post a pic of my bitch leaping into the water like a high powered retriever - but she can't swim worth a darn.

All that NAVHDA, FCI, DK "super dog" stuff seems to fail then. Particularly when the All time NAVHDA producer is a trial bred GSP. Interesting. CR

[Yawallac]

Particularly when the All time NAVHDA producer is a trial bred GSP.

It's all marketing CR. They want the newbie to believe that it takes a "specially bred" GSP to perform well in NAVHDA or to be a "foot hunting" dog. If it's not their specially NAVHDA bred "close-working" GSP then it's a run-off. Facts only get in the way.

...and speaking of mythbusters hehehehe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaCgxFajz5Y&feature=user

[adogslife]

It's a old discussion.
If you all want to try and convince people that FT dogs or dogs not bred for versatilty can consistantly and reliably produce versatility then go ahead.
Maybe you will even get a few puppy sales.

[Yawallac]

adogslife,

You can't breed out versatility. If you could Pointers would have lost retrieving instinct 134 years ago. It's still there. It's there because the traits that make a bird dog are genetically connected. How else could a GSP FT sire be the top all time producer of NAVHDA UTIs? He still passes on versatile genes.

You're trying to create a market for bootlickers by saying that the versatility is gone in FT blood. Not so. If someone wants a close working dog that can certainly be bred for, and that's fine. But most experienced dogmen quickly learn that "close working" isn't necessarily a good thing for a pointing dog. And a well bred FT dog will adjust its range when required.

FRIENDLY CHALLENGE: You pick a litter, any litter of your so-called lesser FT GSPs and I'll buy a pup and put a NA I on it. When I do you reimburse me the cost of the pup. If I can't I'll give you the pup. Want to make it more interesting? Pick a pup from any Pointer litter in the country and I'll do the same. Put your money where your mouth is.

[adogslife]

A NA 1.
Would that be with 1 hand behind your back?

You may not be able to breed out pointing so easily but you can breed away water,and don't tell me that your dogs swim, I don't want to hear it.I want to see searches, with no game scent, for 1+ hours, then we can talk water and you can breed away nose quality and temperament.
The kicker is, and I love this one - my dog is calm in the house. How do you think this got started? Like this is the exception not the norm.
Retrieving is a dog's instinct to eat coupled with a recall command.
UT is mostly an obedience test. How much versatility is there,really?A water search with a shot?Nothing like getting the desire to hunt for prey like a shot.
I never said versatilty is gone with the FT bred dogs.
I said it is not likely you will find consistant,reliable versatile litters.
It's all in the breeding.I don't see FT breeders looking toward versatile venues to produce FT stock?Why is that?Does it work one way and not the other?

What exactly is a bootlicker?
A 150 yard dog? 400 yards?more?
I like to see my dogs work.I like my dog to wait for me before going over the ridge and if he goes over I like for him to give a peek back to keep an eye on me.
I don't like to use e-collars and I want my dogs within hearing distance.
I don't mind if he seeks objectives or runs lines but I do like them to quarter if the terrain calls for it and I like a dog that cares where I am.They are hunting with me, it's not my job to keep up with them.

[adogslife]

And I forgot to add -
if you can't put a NA 1 on a dog why the H#%& would I want it?

Out of curiosity,
how many VCs are the first generation FT bred?

[adogslife]

I have a challenge for you:
http://www.unitedbloodtrackers.org/index.php
put a UBT 1 on your best FT dog.

[Yawallac]

Woodland's Lord Hanchen was a first generation FT dog. He was also a multi Invitational qualified dog and the first GSP MH. He also sired the first multi VC.

Does that work for you??

You may not be able to breed out pointing so easily but you can breed away water

Nope, you can't. The trait is genetically connected to the others. You can't get rid of it unless you get rid of the other hunting traits. You can diminish it, but you can't get rid of it. IMO.

Why do Pointers still have natural retrieving instinct?? It hasn't been bred for in over one hundred years. ...and yet with very little nurturing it's still there. ??????

BTW, the most breath-taking Duck Searches I have seen were from very independent dogs. The very trait that the FT breeders breed for. Independent FT bred dogs take their independence to the water. 1.5 hour searches are the norm. From my experience, it takes about 1hr and 20 min. of swimming pressure to wear out an average pen raised training mallard.

[adogslife]

A multi-qualified VC?
Did he ever attain VC?
What is a multi VC?

You are correct, you can not totally breed out water.But, I am not talking about water love, I am talking about doing searches w/o game scent present w/o giving up or having to be re-sent or loose focus.There is a difference,don't you agree?

I stated why pointers still retrieve. It is b/c retrieving is an instinct to eat, use a recall and you have a retrieving dog.

Have those same breath-taking searches you've seen by very independent dogs been by pointers?

I don't know what page you are on but I am not talking about wearing out a pen raised mallard.Any dog with drive and worth its salt will chase a duck in water.No knowledgable versatile trainer will allow their dog to chase a pen raised bird or any duck for that long, they would shoot it if the dog couldn't catch it and have the dog retrieve it.
If this is the scenario you use to impress people with your dog's versatility - you are fooling them and you know it.

[WildRose]

It's a old discussion.
If you all want to try and convince people that FT dogs or dogs not bred for versatilty can consistantly and reliably produce versatility then go ahead.
Maybe you will even get a few puppy sales.

You are obviously correct, what were we thinking.

The white bitch in this picture trailed this bobcat for a little over half a mile. She was bred 3x out of FC Dixieland's Luke, 1x out of NFC/FC Uodibar's koonas. The male who killed it was a grandson of FC Dixieland's Rusty HOF sired by a 3x NSTRA CH


All three of these four month old Puppies were Line bred Grandchildren of FC Dixieland's Rusty HOF


There's absolutely no versatility in this Line bred FC Dixieland's Rusty/ FC Dixieland's Luke Grandaughter who was also a Granddaughter of FC/AFC Beir's Evolution.

She just sit's quietly on the bank watching her owners bobber. When the bobber goes down she dives in, catches, and delivers the fish to hand, no force fetching required

Again, you must be correct the only place to go to get a "real versatile dog" is NAVHDA, just like the only place to go to get a decent upland hunting dog is the FDSB. CR

[adogslife]

I have to say, seeing your dogs enjoying the water is nice and a fishing dog to boot.
WOW. you must be proud.
All these pictures show me is that 1 dog could catch a seen fish and the other made a water retrieve.With all the other dogs there in the water I must assume that it was a seen fall for training?A cast maybe?
I see no evidence of searching.
If I am supposed to be impressed by a GSP who can track hot fur scent of seen game fleeing then forget it. You too seem to be fooling the masses.

[Yawallac]

Woodland's Lord Hanschen qualified at the Invitational BEFORE they awarded the VC. VCs came along after the Invitational.

His offspring - 2x VC Caladen's Midnight Reiver (my breeding )

Have those same breath-taking searches you've seen by very independent dogs been by pointers?

Yes, Pointers are fantastic in the water. Training for the NAVHDA Duck Search has never been an issue with Pointers. I'm not suggesting that a Pointer would be a great choice for a duck hunter because they are not suited for cold water. But for the jump shooting that I do here in the south they do just fine.

I don't know what page you are on but I am not talking about wearing out a pen raised mallard.Any dog with drive and worth its salt will chase a duck in water.No knowledgable versatile trainer will allow their dog to chase a pen raised bird or any duck for that long, they would shoot it if the dog couldn't catch it and have the dog retrieve it. If this is the scenario you use to impress people with your dog's versatility - you are fooling them and you know it.

...not trying to impress anyone. I use a Duck Search during the summer here in SC as conditioning because of our heat. I can just about document the amount of time it takes to completely exhaust a duck. Then my Pointers retrieve it and I put the duck up until the next trip. Just FYI stuff. No big deal really. BTW, it is GREAT summer conditioning ...and a lot of fun. Pointers can swim a l-o-n-g time.

[WildRose]

If I am supposed to be impressed by a GSP who can track hot fur scent of seen game fleeing then forget it.

She forgot nothing. She pointed it when it finally stopped. When it broke to run the other dog took it down from behind and killed it.

I'm curious. Exactly what is it that allows you to define versatility, (and continually redefine it) for the rest of us?

If NAVHDA is the bar for versatility in the US, and most of their participants seem to feel it is, then there's really no argument since the all time leading producer of UT1 dogs IS a field trial bred GSP.

No matter how many times you change the bar to suit your own ends the facts remain pretty clear.

If you can't train or handle dogs with FT breeding to perform at a standard that suits you, it's not a reflection of the dog's abilities, it's a reflection of either a lack of ability as a trainer or an unrealistic ideal. CR

[WildRose]

One guide, one dog, one hunter, one day's hunt. Wounded boar (mostly mad just shot through the snout)tracked for over 3/4 mile then taken to the ground and held by the dog.

Five actual wild ducks shot from a blind all recovered by the dog. Six BW quail, pointed, then retrieved by the same dog.

That dog is not a NAVHDA bred dog, and Not a DK. He is a grandson of FC Dixieland's Rusty HOF, and son of a 3x NSTRA CH.

These are actual hunting scenarios on wild game, not somebody's made up game. CR

[Yawallac]

Looks pretty VERSATILE to me!! How better to measure versatility than actually doing it?? That to me is the bar!

Nice pic!

You know, my Pointers could handle the quail and the ducks ...but the boar? Probably not going to happen!!

[WildRose]

Looks pretty VERSATILE to me!! How better to measure versatility than actually doing it?? That to me is the bar!

Nice pic!

You know, my Pointers could handle the quail and the ducks ...but the boar? Probably not going to happen!!

Well Moose and Bullett were both awfully good hog dogs, Bullett loves to bay them up and Moose is too dumb not to catch them. Once we started trialing though we had to convince them not to do it any more. Also had to cut way down on the whole catching and killing armadillos, skunks, opposum, thing too. FT judges just don't have much of a sense of humor for that stuff, not even me HA!

They do still get to duck hunt though.CR

[adogslife]

There is so much to comment on that I will only say 2 things:
1) I am still referring to unseen water searches,w/o scent,w/o game being present, w/o loosing focus,w/o gun fire
This picture of the pointer swimming clearly shows a dog that sees it's prey in open water. Not much of a search if the duck is in open water,is it?
2) Which part of versatility would you be training?
Use of nose? cooperation? drive? independence?
I agree, if you can't teach a dog to be quiet by the blind then you are not all that qualified as a trainer and if you can teach a dog to track unseen game where the scent is 20+ minutes old then you are a great trainer,b/c that, my friends, can not be trained.
I am not re-defining versatility - I am defining it. It is the 2 of you who are re-defining it to suit your own purposes.

[Yawallac]

adogslife,

I don't know you, but from your posts I'd be willing to bet that I have been qualifying NAVHDA UT dogs before you ever heard of NAVHDA. It's pretty obvious that you don't have experience with FT dogs. As an up and coming trainer you might want to give one a try. I bet you'd be SURPRISED!!

[adogslife]

HA!
Get real!
Are you (both) going to start in with the EGO bit and intimidation tactics?

You still can't prove versatilty and all the chest pounding in the world can't change that.

Don't hurt yourself,now.