Would you??

[Scott]

My question is to breeders mainly.

I am one who buys well bred dogs and don't breed. It is easier for me to buy a great dog from what I consider proven lines. I.E. AKC field trial champs or Champs. It is just easier for me.

Now for the question if you have an Female AKC field trial champion with great bloodlines and a unbelieveable Male wildbird dog that is AKC registered would you breed the two?

Now for a couple points to consider:

1.
The owner of the "hunting dog" has NOT been involved in hunt tests, akc or NSTRA but is a hunter and has very nice dogs. Is very avid in hunting and training for the local community.
2.
The AKC field trial dog is a great dog and has several accomplishments.
3.
Both dogs have similar pedigrees.

What type of dog would you expect to get and why?

Breeders seem to know answers to questions like this.

I hope the question is clear? I am just wondering what type of a dog you might expect to get back. AKC all-age or hunting dog?

Would this be a good breeding even though the male was not "proven" ie AKC, NSTRA etc?

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Umm... When I bred or buy dogs I like titles it proves something to me and to my customers. It says this dogs does this and does it well whatever title it may have. That being said you never know really what your going to get when you bred IMO you just up yours odds if they are proven stock. If they had similar lines ie line breeding you would push those triats through to those pups if its being AA dogs or what have you. I'm sure you would have good stock chances lean to yes for that fact. A pedigree of both dogs would be nice to look at to get some history on your paticular situation. Don't know if I really said anything but there it is.

[Birddog 307]

If the male dog has good bloodlines and it passes OFA with good or better and there are no other health concerns. You bet I would consider breeding them. But I am a hunter and am really not concerned about titles. That male might be a better birddog than alot of champions even though he has not been trialed.
Birddog 307

[3Britts]

I agree. If you have had the chance to see both dogs work and like what you have seen, go for it. Titles show what the dog can do and are worth while. But, if you know what the dogs can do and each dog is free of health concerns and has been OFA certified Good or better than you will, most likely, get good pups.
I hunt my dogs and have guided many hunting trips. My puppies sell within 2 weeks of the whelping dispite having no titles because people know the caliber of my Brittanys. They hunt and they find the birds.

[Scott]

Lol... I noticed that all the replies are from brittany folks. Probably because my avatar and perfect pedigree is of a brittany. Actually this is a friends dogs and they are GSP. But it really doesnt matter what breed it is I suppose.

I agree with you all. I have seen some dogs that are bird finding machines but the owners don't have the time or money to pursue field trial type venues with their dogs. However I highly recommend that the dogs are ofa'd at a minimum as well. I believe both dogs are either ofa good or excellent. I will have to check on that.

If I wasnt a brittany guy I would have gotten one of these shorthairs a long time ago. Its never to late to add another dog to a kennel though.

[Greg Jennings]

Does the breeding make sense? Do they both warrant breeding? How do they line up genetically or is it an outcross? Know anything about how that cross works? Like is it a parallel of a known nick?

From another angle, are the folks in a position to have a litter? E.g., long hours away from home and inability to take off can put a pinch on things.

I'm a softy but, can the pups be found homes for?

Greg J.

[3Britts]

I would have to say that Greg is right. I personally will not breed my dogs if the interest is not there. Breeding should never be about the money, it is about the dogs.
From my last litter, 6 of the 10 puppies found homes due to referals.
Where some of the breeders in my area still have half of their last litter, with no interest in the remaining puppies, after 16+ weeks. And that is with the price dropping well below standard.

[Don]

Have you ever heard of "Barn Owl Wind" and "Miss Tekoa Hope"? Neither has a title. They are the parents of 11X Ch Tekoa Mountain Sunrise!

How about "Lookout Mona"? No titles but but shes the mother of Ames qualifier in 2006, Ch Tommy B. Can't be more than a few thousand more examples out there. Your looking for a hunting dog. I wouldn't be to overly impressed with titles if I were you. I'd look at the bloodlines and the parents.

[Greg Jennings]

Perhaps I came off as more negative than I meant.

I'm not a breeder. I'm 100% content to let Rick and Brenda do that for me.

I meant my post as things that I would be asking myself were I in your friend's shoes.

I'm a critical kind of guy. In my line of work, I have to be. Military aircraft make expensive yard darts....

Greg J.

[snips]

We would, and have. But, it was probably a dog of great bloodlines that matched up great with what we wanted to accomplish. On that note, we are known somewhat as Breeders and get around and trials and tests enough and train enough to come into contact with the right people to sell the pups too. If you are not a known Breeder, sometimes you are better off going for the best ped and most known dog with titles to get them in the right places. Or else they will be going as pets. JMO.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Far reaching question that a book could, and has, been written on. I don't care nearly as much about titles as the pedigree, how the two line up, what type of dog each,sire and dam, are, what each brings to the table, what are each of their shortcomings and positive qualities. I'd far rather have a pup from a well bred hard charging big running non-titled wild bird dog, than a titled dog that has only proven itself in trials or tests. However, I'd rather see both with titles, NFCs in their background, and both dogs proven as wild bird dogs hunting across the central and western US. In a perfect world, both would have excellent conformation, excellent noses, great gait, great temperament, etc. etc.

I'd nitpick each dog as much as I could, then consider what else is out there to breed to, then make a well educated decision.

[Scott]

Greg,

I didnt think you came off negative. I think those are responsible things a breeder should consider.

Don,

You make a great point as to how many great dogs are out there that have parents with little or no titles. And I would have to agree with you that great trial dogs can come from great hunting dogs. For myself it has been easier to buy a dog with proven lines, just because I don't want to be a breeder nor do I want the responsibility of a litter.

My buddy never has a hard time selling pups, as he is known to have some phenomenal wildbird dogs with a nice run and great range. However he doesnt breed that often. Because its not a priority to him.

I guess the question just came to mind mainly because maybe I personally put too much emphasis on titled dogs and not necessarily great hunting dogs. Hope that make sense. Its strange that I do because if you were out hunting behind one of my buddy's shorthairs you would think you were behind some of the best trial dogs out there. The dogs adjust to the cover, handle amazingly and are great in the house! All that being said I still love my Britts.

I was just curious what folks thought about breeding to a non-titled but excellent bird dog. I know my views have changed. However I would love to see some of my buddy's dog run in NSTRA and AKC because I know they would do very well! He just has a family and other obligations that won't allow it.

Thanks for the great responses.

Scott

[phermes1]

Our Buffy came out of a female that never went past SH and didn't get more than a few placements at a field trial - mainly because her owners had other issues going on that prevented them from competing her. Why did we get a pup out of her? Because we saw her run and she was awesome!

Titles are a good start, but they're not everything. I'd have no problem breeding to a dog with few or no titles if I've seen the dog and know what it can do.

[markj]

Dad taught me breeding is a crap shoot. You can take the best sire and dam around, breed em, chances are better than 0 but not much for a FC.
He did horses, was very good at it too. But he always said look at yer brothers, can you see the differences he has that you dont and same for him? Cant gaurentee a champ but you can better the odds with proven lines.

Bruce Jenner, hear of him? One of Americas best athelets, what has his kids done?

Titles take money to achieve, lots of money, some cant afford to spend it some can. Does it mean a titled dog is better than a non titled? I cant say for sure, my dogs have no titles does it mean they cannot achieve them? No, means i dont have the time or money to achieve it. This is soon to change tho and I will attempt to get a title on the pup I have out of this last litter.


Do they ultra sound the heart and lungs of the field trial dogs at birth and a month or so after? This is a common practise in race horses, bigger heart and lungs mean a better runner in a horse. Folks pay huge bucks for this, wish I inherited Dads money....step mom.......

[FTbritts]

IMO, Don Trublue and Markj Have made some very valid points. If you like the dog breed to it plain and simple. Pedigrees tell part of the story, but genetics will tell you the full story. I have bred to both champion dogs and non champion dogs. I am fortunate to get to see and scout the dogs I have bred to. I don't breed to a dog with a title that I have not personally seen work and more than a few times. I breed and buy the type of dogs I like to watch and train. Simple as that. The last two dogs I bought don't have titles on the sire or dams side. One of the best breedings I have done was the sire was not an FC but has an AF ch title and the dam is not titled either. I plan on a repeat breeding as well. Something just nicked.

I "use" to own a pointer out of a NC and a grandaughter out of a HOF dog. Bred to the 9's. She was crazy as a loon. She was a crap slinger ,messy in the kennel and would just spin circles on the chain. I ended up getting her finished and practically gave her away. I think alot of things are genetically transfered like this. A dog like this won't stay in my kennel very long that's for sure. A pedigree never won a trial or put birds in the bag, but it is a good place to start if you can't see the dogs in person.

[WildRose]

I would not necessarily breed a litter like that, but I certainly would not hesitate depending on the individual dogs.

Titles mean nothing as far as what potential the offspring might have. Unlike race horses which really have no relation to working horses field trials and hunting while very different things are closely related. Many of the higher attributes we look for in a great hunting dog are evaluated at a field trial or hunt test.

If you want the highest statistical likelihood of producing a top caliber trial dog of course you breed two top performing trial performers. However there have been a great many top trial dogs that came from breedings where one or both parents parents are not titled.

Now since trialing is supposed to exist as a sport as a venue where we can showcase our "best breeding stock" for hunting dogs and since most of us agree that a truly great hunting dog is the ultimate goal of breeding programs it's totally illogical to me to eliminate an untitled but great hunting dog from breeding.

The advantage to breeding to or buying from titled parents is that you know that they have succcessfully competed against other dogs at an understood level and/or training standard. It doesn't however in any way shape or form guarantee a quality hunting dog, much less one that's also going to make a great family dog as well. CR