Continental Cover Dog Trial. So what would it take?

[AHGSP]

Looking for input on the subject. There has been some recent discussion of this and I for one, would love to see it as I pursue Grouse like a man possessed from the beginning of October until the end of February anyway.

Should something like this be able to take place with an existing Club as a Walking Stake, I wonder if that wouldn't be the best route versus forming a whole new deal.

Dave Quindt had suggested doing it as a Walking Trial, AKC=Classic and AF=??Classic/Championship?? which also brought the idea of a Dual Sanctioned Trial into thinking as well. Wild birds means no planted.
Dave; Further thoughts and input on actually making this a reality?

Cindy,
Your a woman possessed with Grouse and have the experience with Events beyond I. Additionally, you have the experience in PA, where I have the experience of knowing the potential Grounds in MD and WV that would work. I think that the more involvement and experience from the ground up the better, so YES, I think your involvement would be an important step.

Here is the quote from Jeff/Grousesetters:

"Grousesetters"
"I always thought that it would be interesting to have a Continental breed coverdog trial. Considered trying to run one when I ran GSP of Greater Pgh's trials.

Problems:

Participation: Are there enough continental breed pro's that would be interested in participating to gain enough entries to make it possible?

Where: Since there are already established grounds for running these trials, I would suggest one of those. There are 3 locations in PA; Marienville, State College and Black Hills. Black Hills be the newest and they only run a britt coverdog trial. You would need help from the people that run the trials there. Just knowing where the courses are and the path they take are confusing enough. There are 8 - 1 hour courses at Marienville and State College.

When: You would need to take into consideration the already established AF trials that run on these grounds. Fall is typically a better time for birdwork, but heavier cover and hunting seasons need to be taken into consideration.

Sanctioning: AKC or AF? If you run AKC, you would be eliminating the most qualified and experienced people to judge a coverdog trial, since they are AF affliated. AF and you eliminate a lot of people that wouldn't want to run in a non-AKC championship points trial.

A lot of obstacles to overcome. But I do believe it could be done with the right motivated person in charge.

Jeff"

How many entries are we talking about? Jeff, you mentioned 8-1 hour courses, so I'm assuming 16 entries for 8 braces in a 8 hour day? 2 days being 32 entries.

Courses has been one of my concerns. I know an area where you can expect to move 2-4 Grouse in an hour, but the grounds are not suitable for horseback for the Judges(if this is even an issue) and all dog transport back and forth along a continuous course would have to be by ATV. This is private land.

I also know a couple state land areas that would work and the question would become permitting and access(there is roaded access through the area for a "dog vehicle"). Both would be good for Horseback Judging to the point they had to get off for a point( again, if this is even an issue). One though, the bird numbers are not what I'd like to see consistently throughout the course; whereas the other could expect to provide Grouse contacts all through the course.

I'm not sure if the horseback thing is an issue for the Judges or not, so I'm considering it until I know if it is expected by the Judges od they expect to walk as in the REAL DEAL.

The areas I can offer for consideration are not Trial grounds, so there would be no conflict with other Trials, only Hunting Seasons.

Sanctioning was the other thing I had considered and liked the idea of Dual Sanctioning, but just don't know enough to know what would be involved in both paperwork and cost. Also a thought, if run AF, does this just turn it into just another Coverdog event. As I understood it, the A.B.C. is running their Brit Trial Dual Sanctioned, anyone with experience?

What say ye?

[Flush]

Good Luck Bruce, as you know, I think it's a good idea and I have wondered why they are not already more common.

Another question/problem: Will it be open to pointers/setters? I know there are specific breed stakes, but I have not heard of a "continental" only stake in this country (although I think I may have been the first one to mention such a thing on the other site). Just wondering how that could/would work? I have heard they do seperate trials in Europe like that but I don't know if it is actually by rule, or just happens that way over there.

I wish you the best of luck!

-Flush

P.S. just another thought. If there are already Britt cover-dog trials in the area maybe talking to them about somehow adding or opening up stakes?
Maybe they are in need of entries, or maybe they are turning Britts away and would be helpful in getting more "cover" options out there for their britts.

[Brittguy]

Even if you are on private grounds , you do not want to conflict with other trials ,because you will loose entries to them.
I don't believe there are many pro handlers in the continental breeds interested in coverdog trials.
You cannot run 8 one hour braces in a 8 hour day.There will be lost time after each brace picking up dogs, judges making notes, next brace getting ready to turn loose. Lunch.
Most AF judges will be accepted by AKC to judge. You can be dual sanctioned.Here are some expensive to expect.
Insurance,covers judges going and coming from trial and workers at trial.
Judges expenses, travel, motel, gifts, meals
Advertising in the field ( this is a requirement to be sanctioned)
Ribbons,trophies,
recording fees.
Private land probably need a porta john
tent or some shelter in case of rain
look for area with parking facilities
even though you will be counting on wild birds you may want a few birds in case of a callback.
most land is not free, there probably will be some rent .
this is what I can think of off hand , I'm sure I am missing something.

[Yawallac]

Bruce!! You're always thinking outside the box!! What a cool idea!! heck, I may get a GSP just to run in that event! ...or maybe dock one of my liver pups!!

[WildRose]

It could easily be set up under the same type scenario that he "All Breed" (NGPDA) is run.

It would not be too difficult I wouldn't think to set it up as a "classic" under the AKC rules and have it dual sanctioned.

"Enough pro's" Well how many would it take. Most of the pro's have ten plus dogs on their string and so getting 20-40 dogs (to give the stake minimal credibility at least) would not be all that difficult if you coordinated the date such that it didn't interfere with any of the NGSPA events and particularly if you could set it up so that it was within reasonable drive of one of the regional or species ch's bookended with a weekend trial or two.

I would think the biggest issue would be in just getting the logistics of scheduling done. CR

[GrouseSetters]

I think it would be best if anyone were to consider puttng one of these on, attendance to a couple of existing coverdog trials would be highly recommended.

Generally speaking, for the 1 hour courses, 2 to 2.5 miles of course would be needed. The courses start at the edge of a road, go 1/2 hour back and loop 1/2 hour back to the road. Then you move down the road a bit to the next course. It requires a bit of manpower ( or woman power, so as to include everyone) in moving vehicles and keeping things flowing.

Some places will run the derbies on the same courses where there is a cut-off 1/2 way back to make it a 1/2 hour course. Other places will run single course puppy and derby stakes, with call-backs on birds (wild or planted) for the derbies. This is where another AKC v AF difference occurs, generally AF puppy stakes do not have birds out, AKC does.

As per judges, Yes judges in AF could take a test and apprentice to judge AKC, but right or wrong, the attitude prevails for many AF people, that "they ain't taking no stinking AKC test!" Why would you ask that of people who have been handling and judging 100's of dogs for 20 to 30 years?

The land at Marienville, is on Federal grounds (Allegheny National Forest) so permission is needed from them and not the PGC. Also it should be considered that a lot of time and maintenance is put into cutting, clearing and rerouting courses from volunteers of the existing clubs. So working with them is recommended.

Horses: Trials are judged with or without horses. A lot depends on the terrain. Mountanious courses, up and down hills, stream crossings, can make it difficult to ask a person to walk for 10 hours a day and remain attentitive to every dog. I have done both.

Costs: Why would they be any different from any other trial? In fact they could be slightly less, since you are not paying for birds, and paying for a horse for a bird planter, if needed. The entry fees in AF weekend trials are virtually the same as an AKC weekend trial, yet the AF trials seem to be able to pay out purses in their events. Purses are a good way of attracting participation.

Continental breed stakes: I believe this is already done in a horseback stake, run at Killdeer. I would suggest if doing this, you make the premier stake (shooting/gun dog) closed to continental breeds, and the companion puppy and derby stakes, open to all breeds.

For some more info on coverdog trials, I suggest checking out:

http://www.fosteraward.com

Jeff

[Greg Jennings]

I would commit to helping out, Bruce.

[V-John]

What the difference between a coverdog trial and your average everyday field trial?

Thanks,

John

[GrouseSetters]

What Is A Cover Trial?

A cover trial is an FDSB trial conducted on native Ruffed Grouse and/or North American Woodcock. Such trials are called “cover” trials because the nature of the grouse and woodcock cover is such that a lot of the trial takes place in cover as opposed to open fields. Quite simply, a cover trial is a grouse or woodcock field trial.

The above was taken from the Foster Award site on the New Trialers page, which contains more info:

http://www.fosteraward.com/New_Trialers.html

We have set this website up to provide the type of information, that is being asked for here. Trials will be starting in early March and go through mid-April, when we stop to prevent interferring with nesting birds.

2 dogs per brace, so it is typically 16 dogs run in a day. Championships in AF do not limit entries. When the dog to left, Dewey, won Runner-Up Champion at the PA Grouse Championship there were 74 dogs entered. So the trial lasted almost 5 days.

Jeff

[up-hunter]

I think this would be a great idea. Another thing to consider is there are some continental that are not registered with AKC such as PudelPointers. So you would be eliminating some of the continentals from running.

Also there are cover dog stakes run in michigan, wisconsin and i beleave minnesota. So i think this could be a growing competition for the continentals.

[AHGSP]

I can't take the credit for it Ross, Flush was who actually put me in motion on the idea after some good emails back and forth.

Charlie,
I had actually been thinking about the NGPDA and NGSPA for the AF affiliation. I need to look into this more. Scheduling, manpower and grounds would likely be the biggest issues as mentioned.

Jeff,
I'm going to be looking at the schedule and trying to get out and check a few out. What would be the possibility of catching up with you at a Trial or 2 and picking your brains some? You ride braces? Walk 'em?

Greg,
Appreciate the offer and will take you up on it. I'd really like to see this get off the ground and the more help, the better.

More thoughts and ideas?

[Brittguy]

There are two trialers in PA that attend a lot of coverdog trials. Maybe they could give you some suggestions. I don't have their addresses off hand but if you go to the AKC website, look in the judges directory for Les Cassellberry and Roger McPherson. The judges directory will have their address listed.

[Dave Quindt]

Bruce,

I am literally hours away from leaving for a week in winter camp, so I will make this very quick. I'll be in touch with you when I get back; I've got a number of other ideas.

I think you have two real options; either AKC or a stand-alone AF club. NGSPA gives you GSPs only; NGPDA isn't a very viable option right now.

I think the best option for getting the type of people and dogs involved that I think you are going after will be the AKC. I'd consider leveraging the knowledge that the Brittany folks have, as they are the only continental breeding doing this right now. Take a look at the 1/19/08 edition of the Field; there is an article on the American Brittany Club Grouse and Woodcock Championship.

Here is what I struggle with a bit; can you run a dark GSP in the woods with a trial-quality ground race and find the dog on point in enough time to keep the dog in judgment? I let my Sophie roll around the woods as much as she wants, but that beeper is a life saver. A trial-sized bell will help keep track of dogs like her but once it goes silent, the work begins. Can the handler and judge find the dog and have the dog in sight when the bird is produced?

Let me keep mulling this over a bit and I'll be in touch when I get back.

FWIW,
Dave

[GrouseSetters]

AHGSP,

I will be attending a few coverdog trials in the spring. Most definitely the Ontario Grouse Ch. at State College and the Armstrong Classic at Marienville. When I will be there will depend on when I draw. Walking in the gallery of both trials. Since there are more Ch stakes on the walking circuit in the spring that will be where my primary focus will be, along with a few horseback stakes.

Dave,

Not sure if they get much darker than this fella:



That's 4XCh Wrongway backed by his offspring Right of Way. I spent many times with him calmly laying on the front seat of a truck or laying around in his home, but when he was let off the lead, all you saw, when you saw him, was a black blurr. Bells are used in coverdog trials and it gets to be quite a particular thing. I have a whole collection of bells, with preferences for certain bells for certain dogs.

Roger McPherson may be coming down to my place in a few weeks to work dogs, and I'll be sure to talk with him about thi subject.

Jeff

[AHGSP]

Thanx for the Judge suggestion Bill. Judges will be an important and difficult portion of this.

Dave,
Have a good time at Camp and I'll be looking forward to your email.

Jeff,
The Ontario is at a bad time, the week leading up to the Hunt Test I Chair, but I might be able to do a day. The Armstrong however, is great timing and I should be able to do both days of the Event and would like to catch up with you. Where can I find info on where EXACTLY these grounds are located and directions? The Foster site only list Marienville and State College, with no specifics. Watching a couple of these Events will be an important 1st step.

THANX KINDLY for all of the input, info and offers of help folks!

Cindy? Been looking for your input; You following this?

[GrouseSetters]

Bruce,

Again I'll direct you to the Foster Award site. There's alot of information on it, which has been a volunteer cooperative effort of many people. Under the trial information page you'll find at the top driving directions.

http://www.fosteraward.com/Trial_Information.html

Information such as drawings and even daily updates while the trials are being conducted can be found on either the Foster site or the Coverdog Message board.

The Armstrong Classic is more than likely to run 3 or 4 days. Also, you'll need to watch the Coverdog meesage board for delays or cancellations. Spring trials are often times touch and go, depending on weather conditions, where a trial can be delayed for several days because of snow and ice. One spring trial I judged over 3 days, had 3 completely different days. The 1st was nice warm conditions, about 50 degrees. The 2nd was a complete rain downpour the entire day. The 3rd we woke up to about 4 inches of wet snow that continued throughout the day. The winner came out of the 2nd morning, during the worst part of the rain where the rain was so loud hitting ground you could barely hear the bells. Bracemate threw in the towel after about 10 minutes because of the conditions. Dog had 2 grouse finds, with the 2nd on a running brood of grouse, that required about a 100 yard reloction through an old clearcut, that she finally got pinned at the other end.

Jeff

[honeyrun]

I am following along. Let me talk to someone at AKC and see what I can come up with as to how we could get AKC approval. Also, the Parent club, GSPCA might be another option to hold a breed(s) specific Cover trial. I will check this also. I am heading to camp tonight, so will start looking into this on Monday.

[AHGSP]

Bruce,

Again I'll direct you to the Foster Award site. There's alot of information on it, which has been a volunteer cooperative effort of many people. Under the trial information page you'll find at the top driving directions.

http://www.fosteraward.com/Trial_Information.html

Information such as drawings and even daily updates while the trials are being conducted can be found on either the Foster site or the Coverdog Message board.

The Armstrong Classic is more than likely to run 3 or 4 days. Also, you'll need to watch the Coverdog meesage board for delays or cancellations. Spring trials are often times touch and go, depending on weather conditions, where a trial can be delayed for several days because of snow and ice. One spring trial I judged over 3 days, had 3 completely different days. The 1st was nice warm conditions, about 50 degrees. The 2nd was a complete rain downpour the entire day. The 3rd we woke up to about 4 inches of wet snow that continued throughout the day. The winner came out of the 2nd morning, during the worst part of the rain where the rain was so loud hitting ground you could barely hear the bells. Bracemate threw in the towel after about 10 minutes because of the conditions. Dog had 2 grouse finds, with the 2nd on a running brood of grouse, that required about a 100 yard reloction through an old clearcut, that she finally got pinned at the other end.

Jeff

Thanx Jeff,
I've been going through all of the info presented there and just overlooked the link for directions. DOH!

[Flush]

I can't take the credit for it Ross, Flush was who actually put me in motion on the idea after some good emails back and forth

Bruce, You are doing the work. You take the credit!

Besides we can't have a Setter guy being behind what I'm sure will be a great event for continentals if it gets off the ground. Just sorry I can't really be any help on the subject given my location.

-Flush

[AHGSP]

I posted this topic quite a few years ago and in recent conversation, interest has come back up to try to get this going by members of the Oak Ridge Pointing Dog Club located up in Harrisville, PA; not to far from the Marienville grounds. This has been brewing for a few years now and interest has finally peaked to where I think(HOPE!), that this could be brought to reality and fruition. I'm curious of the interest, which I believe to be significant, as well as additional input and ideas to making this happen.

[AHGSP]

Bruce this would really great. Would it be open to all continental breeds. I'd love to run my dogs in this . I'm sure there would be a few more from Northern Minn as well.

Howie,
My thinking would be yes, though it would ultimately be up to the Sponsor Club. Oak Ridge is an All Breed Club, so I'm not sure how that would play out. I'm thinking as mentioned above somewhere, make the premier stake(Gundog most likely?) Continentals only with Puppy and Derby open to all Breeds; but again it would really depend upon the sponsoring Club. I personally feel that the difficulty with entries would be too many, rather than not enough. I kinda thought you would be up for such an event, as well as many other serious Shorthair Grouse Hunters on the forum.

[cmc274]

Bruce,

You could count me for an entry or two plus whatever help was needed weekend of the trial. When were you thinking about putting it on? Is it cheating to put your dog with Dave Hughes for a month prior?

Chris

[Dirtysailor]

Well I would take my first step into trialing for this type of event. I will put my two bisket eaters in. I have a good feeling about this happening. Whoever thought it up had a great idea. More to come.

[Winchey]

Good idea. It would be nice to get something off the ground, even if it starts small, hopefully it will catch fire. I am starting to run my SM in some of the coverdog trials, it would be nice to get beat by some GSP's rather then the same old setters and pointers, heck even the brits who am I kidding.

[volraider]

I would be interested in running a couple of dogs.

[1doogie]

Count me, Dollar, and Wyatt in!!!!

[Wagonmaster]

Cover dog trials are all walking trials. In some, judges ride, but not handlers or scouts. what's the use, you can't get to the dog in the cover when it is on point, if you are on horseback. Judges have to be there for every brace, so sometimes ride.

Has to be AF. Among other things, the number of AKC judges in the whole country who know how to judge a wild bird trial, is smaller than your flushes per hour in the bottom of the cycle. NGPDA is not a sanctioning organization, NGPDA runs one trial, the NGPDA Championship.

The problem is attendance, where in the country are you going to find enough continental dog handlers who would be interested in such a trial?

Last but not least, you know, you can run your GSP or other continental in the existing cover dog trials. What you will discover if you try it, is that what wins is finds, which are not common especially not in the spring. So if you run a dog of any breed that knows how to find and point grouse or woodcock it will be competitive.

[Winchey]

Maybe Maine. There is an active coverdog circuit there and there are also 3 NAVHDA chapters whithin a couple of hours of one another, as well as one very close by in New Hampshire. I am assuming most of those NAVHDA members hunt grouse and woodcock with their dogs. I don't know how many of them would be interested in a coverdog trial though.

[rschmeider]

Bruce, you know i'm in.I'm a avid grouse hunter and nothing better than training for the real deal.It would be nice to see AKC with cover trials or AF continenal all breeds.Thier are alot of people from Oak ridge in PA love to see this.When you need help email me.

[Ruffshooter]

I know already there are trials in NB and NH. Cover dog trials in Maine, (all setter and pointers each time I went to watch). It would be great to have all pointing breeds welcomed, really welcomed. I believe there are more GSP and GWP in maine than any other pointing dog, I maybe wrong but three NAVHDA clubs with 80 to 120 each members each. The folks that are dedicated to NAVHDA, probably wont do the trials.(In Maine) The real problem is the people. Getting them to participate. I have tried getting a simple NSTRA thing going here for years, had some fun trials and had some fun but no one would join the club and there were only 6 to 8 braces each day.

Here in Maine, I often wondered if something could be worked out with the paper companies. There is plenty of acreage for any size trial wanted or needed. Plenty of grouse in each area. The biggest problem with anything up here are the logistics. Travel is 7 hours to Moosehead area 4.5 to Rangely area from Boston.

But other wise I certainly would participate.
Rick

[Winchey]

It would be great to have all pointing breeds welcomed, really welcomed.

They are IMO. The thing is setters and pointers have been bread for a long time to excel specifically at these types of trials and the people who want to be compettive in them go and buy proven stock with a history of coverdog champs in their lines.

[AHGSP]

I don't agree with Wagonmaster's complete premise, but agree that if you have a birdfinder, you "SHOULD" be competitive.

The ball is rolling and as it stands, the Trial would likely be held in Western PA as an AKC All Breed Event, quite possibly at Marienville in the Allegheny National Forest. Hopefully this Fall? Everything that Jeff posted 2 years ago is and has been taken into consideration and my hopes are that we will be able to work with existing Clubs that run on those grounds to make this event happen and in harmony with the existing Clubs on those grounds. I don't want to get into too much detail right now and should leave the details to Dirtysailor, as it is his Club that will be putting on this event.
I don't think entries are going to be an issue, as this has already had 2 years to gain momentum and there are some SERIOUSLY DEDICATED Grousers already committing to this event. To say interest is high, would likely be an understatement.

STAY TUNED!

[Trekmoor]

I found this thread interesting because all trials in Britain are held on wild game, nothing is planted for the dogs. A problem that sometimes occurs is a lack of game during some of the dogs runs. Over here handlers have learned just to shrug their shoulders and say, "That's trialing for you." Would your handlers be prepared to take the same attitude if there were a lack of game during some of the dogs runs ?

Sorry if I am misunderstanding your trials and your game densities but this read to me as being a bit like British trials and I am trying to see in advance a problem that may arise.
I wish you every success at getting this off the ground.

Bill T.

[baileydog2007]

This sounds very interesting to me, being new to the pointing dog world. Im from northern MN, LOVE to hunt grouse, do it 4-5 days a week in the fall. Its tough to beat IMO.

Would a trial like this be watchable for a new comer, would help from a new guy be needed??? Sounds VERy cool.

[slistoe]

There are lots of trials that are held all over North America on wild game birds. Every effort is made to ensure that there are game birds on the courses and that everyone will have an opportunity but there is no way to predict the weather, time of day, random bird movements, etc. etc. so if you participate you need to willing to acknowledge that even the best dogs may not have the opportunity to show their stuff on that glimpse of time in their career.

[Winchey]

There is a successful wild bird coverdog circuit aleady and people keep doing it year after year so ya, they get that wild birds don't alway's cooperate. As for newcomers being able to watch without help I dunno you hear more than you see I guess. Some grouse hunters don't like the type of dog that win these trials and some do.

[baileydog2007]

There is a successful wild bird coverdog circuit aleady and people keep doing it year after year so ya, they get that wild birds don't alway's cooperate. As for newcomers being able to watch without help I dunno you hear more than you see I guess. Some grouse hunters don't like the type of dog that win these trials and some do.

I meant help with the event. Would there be a need, for a guy with no experience, help with the event, should it happen. Im not very smart, but I work hard

[Winchey]

They are always looking for people to move vehicles, shuttle people and dogs around etc... If you volunteer I am sure the organizer will have no problem putting you to work.

[zodiakgsps]

Bruce, I would be in with a couple dogs. Can lend a hand as well, give me a holler........

[cmc274]

something to look forward too... http://www.birddogsafield.com/episodes/ ... As2e5.html

I have a pup that is supposed to be whelped 5/23, so hopefully it is late enough I can run him in puppy!

[cmc274]

I know exactly the portion you are referring to, I was thinking maybe mouse / mole?

[vols fan]

I didn't have to freeze it. I also saw a quail on the next brace.

[AHGSP]

Yep, I didn't want to believe my eyes, but those were Quail....bigger than chit.
NOT what we are talking about! If I'm "supposed" to be in a Wild Bird Trial, I'd rather go birdless than have a lay down Quail.

[JKP]

Some grouse hunters don't like the type of dog that win these trials and some do.

Could you describe such a dog?

[Grange]

Yep, I didn't want to believe my eyes, but those were Quail....bigger than chit.
NOT what we are talking about! If I'm "supposed" to be in a Wild Bird Trial, I'd rather go birdless than have a lay down Quail.

If you watch the entire show it appears that the trial was being run on a single course. If the trial, which was an Open Derby, was being run on a single course and the judges wanted to see bird work planted birds had to be used. It wouldn't be fair to the later braces to run on a single course without planted birds.

I've actually ran a in a cover dog trial where a single course was used for the Open Derby because there was not enough time to run on multiple courses. The Open Shooting Dog, which takes precedence over the Open Derby, was using the other courses. During the Open Derby quail were used. The Open Shooting dog was run on wild birds only.

When there is enough time to use multiple courses the trial is run on wild birds.

[Grouse Dog Guy]

I ran a puppy in that derby stake and judged the shooting dog classic. The shooting dogs ran a half hour qualifier on quail then we called back the best six dogs and ran them and hour on multiple courses on wild birds, sorry to say Paul, wasn't able to video the hour call back but it does give you and idea how a cover trial runs.

[rschmeider]

Thats great , just getting you puupy in the grouse woods helps.How it applyed it self and worked the cover looked good in the video.If you keep training in the field all you dog does is aviod cover. Runs logging roads or quad trails. I field trail/hunt test and my dogs are a mess when open season starts.In a couple week it clicks after i am done wearing my tumb out on my tri tronics.Some do take longer cause i can't heater them.A trick i learned for puppys in the woods is weed wacker string .It never tangles and it's lite dosen't hold them back.

[AHGSP]

Yep, I didn't want to believe my eyes, but those were Quail....bigger than chit.
NOT what we are talking about! If I'm "supposed" to be in a Wild Bird Trial, I'd rather go birdless than have a lay down Quail.

If you watch the entire show it appears that the trial was being run on a single course. If the trial, which was an Open Derby, was being run on a single course and the judges wanted to see bird work planted birds had to be used. It wouldn't be fair to the later braces to run on a single course without planted birds.

I've actually ran a in a cover dog trial where a single course was used for the Open Derby because there was not enough time to run on multiple courses. The Open Shooting Dog, which takes precedence over the Open Derby, was using the other courses. During the Open Derby quail were used. The Open Shooting dog was run on wild birds only.

When there is enough time to use multiple courses the trial is run on wild birds.

Ok, now that makes good sense. Thanks for clarifying that Grange. Actually, if you don't mind answering; Does it make better sense to run Puppy and Derby in that format to insure that they get an opportunity for bird work and thus positive experience? Or perhaps just Derby? Thanks in advance!

[Grange]

Yep, I didn't want to believe my eyes, but those were Quail....bigger than chit.
NOT what we are talking about! If I'm "supposed" to be in a Wild Bird Trial, I'd rather go birdless than have a lay down Quail.

If you watch the entire show it appears that the trial was being run on a single course. If the trial, which was an Open Derby, was being run on a single course and the judges wanted to see bird work planted birds had to be used. It wouldn't be fair to the later braces to run on a single course without planted birds.

I've actually ran a in a cover dog trial where a single course was used for the Open Derby because there was not enough time to run on multiple courses. The Open Shooting Dog, which takes precedence over the Open Derby, was using the other courses. During the Open Derby quail were used. The Open Shooting dog was run on wild birds only.

When there is enough time to use multiple courses the trial is run on wild birds.

Ok, now that makes good sense. Thanks for clarifying that Grange. Actually, if you don't mind answering; Does it make better sense to run Puppy and Derby in that format to insure that they get an opportunity for bird work and thus positive experience? Or perhaps just Derby? Thanks in advance!

All of the puppy stakes I've witnessed and participated have run on a single course with no planted birds. As far as Derby stakes every one except the one I mentioned above were all run on wild birds and on multiple courses. From the judges I've talked to they are looking for a dogs potential to become a shooting dog. What better way to assess that potential than to run the dogs the same way as the shooting dogs.

[chiendog]

This sounds like a terrific idea!

The format sounds very much like many trials run for continental breeds on the continent, in particular France and Italy where there are lots of trials and lots of continental dogs running in them. Most trials are on woodcock but some are run on pheasants (released) and even on wild snipe and hazel grouse (Bonasa bonasia). Setters and Pointer also run in these kinds of trials, but unlike in North America, there is an official division between the Continental breeds and the British breeds. They are never run in the same trials.